I also have a lot of work to do on this deck. This is simply a starting point. Hymn and tombstalker are both cards I want to consider. Either way this feels like a contender even in its infancy.
I think a deck with both Dark Confidant and Tombstalker is a little bit risky. Hymn could definitely fit in here, maybe try Spell Snare and more fetches for brainstorm/top.
High risk. High reward. More importantly top is there for that reason. I did enjoy the fact that force of will is fine though. Potentially counterbalance could be worked in over some counters for more spells. Spell snare is on my radar, I'm just aware that abrupt decay seems to beat me right now.
My original first draft had 1 hymn. I am leaning towards cutting a seize and working in 2 though.
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I've been wanting to do U/B delver for a while as well. However, every build I've tested had never felt right.
I've come to realize that I really don't like Snapcaster in tempo decks. I think he's better suited as a 1-2 of for control players and 3-4 mana to cast a spell again is a lot in a deck that wants to run 18 lands (compare that with the 24 land build that U/W delver played last standard season).
I'd rather see a card like Darkblast, Ghastly Demise, or even Go for the Throat over Tragic Slip. Slip will work on lots of relevant legacy creatures but when you want it to take out a Goyf, it either wont be able to, or it will require a 2 for 1 somehow.
On Tombstalker, he doesn't make decklists for The Gate for the sole reason that a Bob flip is sometimes an instant suicide. I'd rather see Unearth for Delver/Bob recoursion, and maybe drop the Snapcasters for Gatekeeper of Malakir and/or Geralf's Messenger.
gerry tompson had an interesting list that used snuff out, probe, and death's shadow. that might be an interesting place to start with a list like this. Another possible direction would be to add phyrexian dreadnaught and stilfe/vision charm.
I *really* dont like snapcaster in tempo decks, you dont really ever want more than two lands in play
I think Dark Confidant with 4 Force of Will's maindeck is a bad idea. Why not Baleful Strix instead? Their lifespan is about the same (how often does Bob stick around more than one turn?) and Strix draws the card immediately and has flying plus deathtouch, and more importantly he won't kill you.
I think you will find a lot of people do think it a bad idea.
I'm more so after the constant stream of cards. Plus the fact bob is a target is a help being that I will be win condition lite. The card advantage he generates is also a reason he has to die.
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dark confident is fine with FoW. the problem is that confident isnt really that good of a beater, and delver isnt enough of a beater alone. There really isnt any black tarmogoyf, all the black fatties have very big drawbacks
Well true story, stifle/nought was something I had thought about earlier in a UB shell. Needless to say I have been reminded of that dream. Especially as it fits in with cards I want to play.
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no, dont do that, play vision charm. the point of delver decks is that you never need more than 2 lands in play (unless the land is wasteland, and presumably you will use that right away).
being forced to play 3 lands (and wait till turn 3 at the earliest) is much much worse than than playing vision charm.
(trickbind is bad for the same reason that snapcaster is bad in this deck)
Vendillion Clique is a pretty good beater that can fit into this shell. Bitterblossom could also be pretty good. Have you considered adding Jace as a secondary wincon? I know it changes it to more of a control than tempo deck, but it also diversifies win conditions.
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Legacy Decks UBG Reanimator RUB Delver R Burn UR Delver UBW Tin Fins UBGR ANT
Vision charm is only good with nought and I'm not aiming to play many. Trickbind is superior. I wanted to play stifle more so as land kill.
I had considered both jace and lilianna. I think I deciding factor will be with/out counterbalance. That decision alone carries a lot of weight in the deck.
Almost forgot, I know it looks like a tempo deck, but I expect it to play more like a control deck.
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if you want to play it more like a control deck, and are fine with needing to have 3 lands in play, consider playing 2x baby jace and 2x lilana with 2x creeping tar pit
Just do 4 Lilliana. Jace makes no sense as he'll have you both draw a card when Liliana is trying to make you both discard a card. It would be hard to make this work out the way you want as you would always need to Jace first and they now have the possibility of holding on to cards as Liliana can't get rid of the card they drew last turn and the new card.
If I were to play lil jace it would be I draw a card until it dies. I'd sooner TMS since it just does so much more for one card. It would be a reason on its own to cut FoW and maybe aim for the counterbalance idea.
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Think it through ssjevot, that is the exact reason why baby jace is so good with lilana. You use jace/confident to get ahead on cards and lilana/other discard to strip their hand (hymn is great for this) once they are hellbent locked, you can force them to discard the card they just drew.
WepX, big jace doesnt play well with delver, delver based decks generally never want more entirelythan two lands in play, 3 is pushing it, and four is completely unreasonable. Big jace belongs in a different deck entirely
Id just drop the tempo elements and go full on u/b control. Idstill use Vendilion Clique, but drop delver/bob for Jace. Either that or keep it tempo and add Vendilion Clique with the delver/bob setup. You can always drop bob for tombstalker too BUT in a world of DRS, im not so sure.
delver doesnt play well in a control shell, he is very vulnerable to basically any removal and can be effectively raced by any 'goyf or other such big dumb creature. Delver only really belongs in tempo decks that are designed to keep both players extreamly low on lands/resources.
now, BUG delver might be a different story, and there might be some play there. But ill wait for WeaponX to chime back in, as UB control is a very differnt deck than UB delver
I personally want to avoid green. BUG delver is a thing so I see no point in rehashing it here. I am liking the concept of UB delver/nought though. There seems enough overlap to keep the deck tight and powerful. It also gives me the space to incorporate counterbalance as I have been desiring to do lately.
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In this style of deck, I would add vision charm first before trickbind because you never want more than two lands in play for long (but there isnt really room for either). Deathrite is fine as a black grim lavamancer that only goes to the dome (you wont always have the stifle/nuaght and dark confident doesnt work as a beater if they have any creatures)
Got distracted with welder MUD so hopefully I will be able to come back to this. The only problem now is that while playing MUD, delver feels a bad choice in our meta. This does give me a reason to revisit tog though as I feel it has some potential to help with this build process.
In fact a tog style deck may be the direction this deck needs.
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3 snapcaster mage
3 dark confidant
1 umezawa's jitte
3 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 stifle
3 spell pierce
2 surgical extraction
4 thoughtseize
1 misdirection
1 divert
3 tragic slip
4 underground sea
4 wasteland
4 island
2 swamp
I also have a lot of work to do on this deck. This is simply a starting point. Hymn and tombstalker are both cards I want to consider. Either way this feels like a contender even in its infancy.
Comments/questions/suggestions always appreciated.
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
My original first draft had 1 hymn. I am leaning towards cutting a seize and working in 2 though.
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
I've come to realize that I really don't like Snapcaster in tempo decks. I think he's better suited as a 1-2 of for control players and 3-4 mana to cast a spell again is a lot in a deck that wants to run 18 lands (compare that with the 24 land build that U/W delver played last standard season).
I'd rather see a card like Darkblast, Ghastly Demise, or even Go for the Throat over Tragic Slip. Slip will work on lots of relevant legacy creatures but when you want it to take out a Goyf, it either wont be able to, or it will require a 2 for 1 somehow.
On Tombstalker, he doesn't make decklists for The Gate for the sole reason that a Bob flip is sometimes an instant suicide. I'd rather see Unearth for Delver/Bob recoursion, and maybe drop the Snapcasters for Gatekeeper of Malakir and/or Geralf's Messenger.
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg:
I *really* dont like snapcaster in tempo decks, you dont really ever want more than two lands in play
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
I'm more so after the constant stream of cards. Plus the fact bob is a target is a help being that I will be win condition lite. The card advantage he generates is also a reason he has to die.
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
Unless you want to play torpor orb and hunted creatures
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
being forced to play 3 lands (and wait till turn 3 at the earliest) is much much worse than than playing vision charm.
(trickbind is bad for the same reason that snapcaster is bad in this deck)
UBG Reanimator
RUB Delver
R Burn
UR Delver
UBW Tin Fins
UBGR ANT
I had considered both jace and lilianna. I think I deciding factor will be with/out counterbalance. That decision alone carries a lot of weight in the deck.
Almost forgot, I know it looks like a tempo deck, but I expect it to play more like a control deck.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
WepX, big jace doesnt play well with delver, delver based decks generally never want more entirelythan two lands in play, 3 is pushing it, and four is completely unreasonable. Big jace belongs in a different deck entirely
now, BUG delver might be a different story, and there might be some play there. But ill wait for WeaponX to chime back in, as UB control is a very differnt deck than UB delver
That's my take on that so I'm not sure what I'm chiming in on.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bitterblossom
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Spell Pierce
1 Island
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Forest
1 Life from the Loam
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Creeping Tar Pit
In this style of deck, I would add vision charm first before trickbind because you never want more than two lands in play for long (but there isnt really room for either). Deathrite is fine as a black grim lavamancer that only goes to the dome (you wont always have the stifle/nuaght and dark confident doesnt work as a beater if they have any creatures)
In fact a tog style deck may be the direction this deck needs.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord