Maybe if it's CC was :symb::symb: and it's Level Up only costed :symb:.
Otherwise, absolutely not, way too mana-intensive.
That would be awesome, but *sigh* it is not.
As for the Inquisition of Kozilek, I don't know how I feel about this card anymore. I think it highly depends upon your meta. In my meta game, I think it would be okay, because I face alot of aggro and combo like Belcher (so I'm grabbing just about anything), but if I were to take my deck to a big tournament, I would probably replace the 2 Inquisition's with a Duress and a Reanimate (I love this card in this deck as a singleton).
On a side note, I'm thinking about changing my board around a little bit. Replacing the 2 Pithing Needles with 2 Choke.
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UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
never leave home with out at least 3. almost makes any blue deck scoop if resolved.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Anyway, I took first. The decks that were there was Eva Green (me), Aggro Loam, Reanimator, Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Faeries, Cephalid Breakfast, and a homebrew deck.
Round 1: Dragon Stompy
Game 1
I lose the die role, and I'm on the draw. My opening hand only has 1 land (swamp), but it has Dark Ritual and Hypnotic Specter, so I keep. He takes a mulligan down to 6. Turn 1, He lays down a Magus of the Moon. I play Swamp, Ritual, Hyppie and pass. I believe he plays a Sword of Fire and Ice on turn 2. I draw a fetch. I Snuff Out the Magus, crack the fetch for a Bayou, and play a Goyf. I swing with Hyppie and Pass. The next turn I play a Putrid Leech and overpower him with threats.
SB: -3 Nantuko Shade
+3 Krosan Grip
Game 2
He takes a mulligan again. I draw a hand with 2 Fetch lands and a Wasteland. I'm worried about another Turn 1 Magus, but decide to keep anyway. He plays a Turn 1 Magus. I can't draw basic lands, so I pass after playing my fetches/Wastelands. He plays 2 Morphed Gathan Raiders then unmorphs them. I'm beat down before I can draw a Swamp.
SB: -2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+2 Nantuko Shade
Game 3
I keep, he mulligans for the third game in a row. I play Swamp, Ritual, Vampire Nighthawk. He plays a turn 1 Magus of the Moon. I Snuff Out the Magus and crack a fetchland (for a swamp) to play a Nantuko Shade. He gets a Gathan Raiders out next turn. Eventually Shade and Raiders trade and the game is him attacking with Magus of the Moon and me attacking with Nighthawk each turn. I win due to the lifelink.
Game 1
Turn 1 I play a thoughtseize and see 2 Morbid Blooms, a Death's Shadow, a Fog, and some lands. I have no idea what's going on with his deck, so I take a Morbid Bloom. Turn 2, I sinkhole his Swamp. Turn 3, I play a Hypnotic Specter. Turn 4, I play dark ritual, Vampire Nighthawk, Tombstalker. Turn 5, I Sinkhole on another Swamp he drew and Thoughtseize again, taking something irrelevant (he played a fog in response). Turn 6, I'm swinging for a bunch.
SB: -4 Snuff out
+4 Leyline of the Void
Game 2
I don't draw a Leyline of the Void, but i keep because I have a fetchland, 2 Dark Rituals, and a tombstalker. I play a Turn 1 tombstalker and he plays a turn 2 Putrid Leech. I sinkhole on turn 2 and 3, and we are both attacking (me with Stalker, him with a pumped Leech). I play a Nantuko Shade, and he can't keep up.
I win the round (2-0)
Round 3: Cephalid Breakfast
Game 1
I lose the die role. He mulligans, I keep. He plays a fetchland and passes. I play a Thoughtseize, and he brainstorms in response. I see a Daze, a Brainstorm, and a bunch of land. I take the Brainstorm and decide to play around the Daze. He plays a Cephalid Illusionist and I Snuff Out it. He hardcasts a Narcomemba and swings for a few turns. I sinkhole an Island, and then a plains a turn later. I play a Nighthawk and try to play a Tombstalker a turn later, but it gets FoWed. I win with Nighthawk beatdown.
SB: -4 Hymn to Tourach
-4 Sinkhole
-1 Snuff Out
-3 Wasteland
+4 Leyline of the Void
+3 Engineered Plague
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Summoning Trap
Game 2
We both Mulligan to 6. I get a Leyline in hand and play it. Eventually, he has a Goyf out (2/3), and I have a Shade with 2 untapped lands. He swings, I block, and then he realizes that Goyf is only 2/3 and not 3/4. I try to play an E. Plague on turn 3, but it's forced. He Grips the Leyline, but soon after I get an E. Plague to resolve and I win.
(2-0)
Some post-tournament thoughts about the deck:
Not going to try running it without Bayous anymore. It was a nice thought, but I hadn't realized just how much I fetched for them until I started writing it down.
Also Inquisition of Kozilek is great. It will definitely replace Duress in my build. I'm going to continue the 3/2 split, but may go to 4/1 or 4/2 later on.
Some post-tournament thoughts about the deck:
Not going to try running it without Bayous anymore. It was a nice thought, but I hadn't realized just how much I fetched for them until I started writing it down.
Also Inquisition of Kozilek is great. It will definitely replace Duress in my build. I'm going to continue the 3/2 split, but may go to 4/1 or 4/2 later on.
Really? That's awesome news man. I personally haven't had the same results. But when you explain it like that. I was prolly pulling the wrong stuff. I will try the 3/2 split of Seize/Inquisition. It sucks about your tournament being so small, but hey at least you placed in the top 8, lol. Great synopsis by the way.
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UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
I'd just rather have the spell that will be in the majority of the split, be the spell that can grab more things. Thoughtseize is more versatile, so that's why I favored the split the way that I did. The life-loss does hurt, I agree, and that's why I went 3/2 instead of 4/1 (though, I may switch that depending on the meta), but I feel the card that will be more relevant in the majority of situations, should be the card you run more of.
If you are doing a Inquisition/Duress split, I agree that Inquisition should be the card you run more of (It can grab more). However, Thoughtseize is the card that can grab the most of the three choices, so that's why run it over Duress.
The fact that inquisition doesn't hit FoW is a pretty huge deal. Turn 1 Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn is good against blue because you can steal their Force in order to resolve your Hymn unless they only have 1 card in their hand that's a bomb you want to get rid of.
The whole point of playing Inquisition of Kozilek in Eva Green is because it's a very functional early game/first turn play, without any lifeloss. We have enough discard/removal/disruption that gets rid of the higher cmc spells. Also we already slow down our opponents with Sinkhole, Wasteland, Hymn, Hippy and then we haven't even talked about Pulse. This is why Inquisition of Kozilek just seems to make more sense than Thoughtseize (no lifeloss, the perfect first turn/early game one drop discard spell for a tempo orientated deck like Eva Green). We already lose life for goodness (tempo/CA) with Snuff Out and all the fetches.
Early game/First turn I'd rather grab a swords, goblin piledriver/lackey, vial, counterbalance or whatever kind of spell.
A 3/2 Inquisition-Thoughtseize split seems more logical to me than a 3/2 Thoughtseize/Inquisition split.
Inquisition makes more sense in early game (which is why I'm going to playtest it as a 4-off), while Thoughtseize has more potentional mid/late game (that's why I play 2x Duress #instead of Thoughtseize# next to Inquisition, for added discard that can get rid of the higher cmc stuff as well, next to Pulse). I can't wait to test it.
Inquisition makes more sense in a meta filled with Aggro or Zoo. However, I would only ever replace my 2 Duress with it.
Not being able to hit FoW, Tendrils, Belcher, Empty the Warrens, Ad Nauseum or anything else Combo is going to kill you with is terrible.
Thoughtsieze STAYS as a 3-4 of. There is no replacing that card in this deck. Personally I wouldn't play any less than 4, and 6 if I could.
Inquisition makes more sense in a meta filled with Aggro or Zoo. However, I would only ever replace my 2 Duress with it.
Not being able to hit FoW, Tendrils, Belcher, Empty the Warrens, Ad Nauseum or anything else Combo is going to kill you with is terrible.
Thoughtsieze STAYS as a 3-4 of. There is no replacing that card in this deck. Personally I wouldn't play any less than 4, and 6 if I could.
i've got to agree 1000% with this.
personally, i was asking how inquisition tested in the duress spot, NOT the thought seize spot.
however, IF my meta was all agro, i might consider doing the 3/2 split like jamis did. otherwise i'll be more interested in a 4/1 or 4/2 split of thoughtsieze/inquisition.
ps..
Jamis, since you're already running the forest, after killing his magus, i would probably have fetched out the basic in fear of another moon effect. i also don't understand why you boarded out the shades after game one. but i am glad that someone else likes the miser leach! was that the only game you got him out?
i've never played against the breakfast deck, and at the moment i can't quite remember how it plays out (it's my night off and i'm downing captain and cokes :cheers:).. but regardless of anything, i think you WAY oversideboarded. you basicly played a completely different deck game two. i've been experimenting with tempo faeries lately, and was makeing the same mistake. i was winning my games for sure, but i think i got lucky. when sideboarding, you should only need a few cards per deck. anything more than that waters down your own deck too much and you loose focus. just food for thought, though i'll eat my own foot tomorrow if i read this and realize i said something stupid.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Jamis, since you're already running the forest, after killing his magus, i would probably have fetched out the basic in fear of another moon effect. i also don't understand why you boarded out the shades after game one. but i am glad that someone else likes the miser leach! was that the only game you got him out?
I grabbed the Dual because he only had 1 card in hand (he removed a Spirit guide for the moon, and then again for the sword) and I was swinging with Hyppie that turn. He could have topdecked another moon, so I considered the forest, but decided that it was fairly unlikely that he would draw another moon effect.
Boarding out the Shades was because I knew I wouldn't get to pump them much with Moon effects, I really wasn't sure what to take out. It wasn't until Game 3 that I realized Inquisition isn't too great against him since all his spells cost 3 or more, so I wouldn't really be stealing early turn plays with it, plus the deck tends to dump it's hand by itself.
And, yeah I believe that was the only game I saw the Leech.
i've never played against the breakfast deck, and at the moment i can't quite remember how it plays out (it's my night off and i'm downing captain and cokes :cheers:).. but regardless of anything, i think you WAY oversideboarded. you basicly played a completely different deck game two. i've been experimenting with tempo faeries lately, and was makeing the same mistake. i was winning my games for sure, but i think i got lucky. when sideboarding, you should only need a few cards per deck. anything more than that waters down your own deck too much and you loose focus. just food for thought, though i'll eat my own foot tomorrow if i read this and realize i said something stupid.
Yeah, I knew I was bringing in too much, too, but there was a lot I wanted to bring in (obviously), and quite a few cards that were dead in that match-up. Leyline and Plague both shut down his combo, so those were needed to come in. Grip was to take out AEther Vial and in case he brought in grave hate against me to keep me off Tombstalkers and Goyfs (he didn't and I think he actually sided out the Vials, but if he did, it might have been able to slow me down enough for him to assemble the combo). Trap was because he had tons of counter-protection, so I figured if he countered a Hyppie, I might be able to get something else into play.
Likewise, I figured Land destruction wasn't great against him, and Hymn had potential to actually help him. Snuff out can't kill Sutured Ghoul, and I already had Plague to kill the other parts of his combo, and Leyline and Stalker to hose Goyf, but I left 3 just in case.
If we went to game 3, I'd definitely put back the Grips and probably the Traps, but It was my first time I played against the deck (and really actually saw it played, too), so I wasn't too sure on how to fight it post-board. Now that I know the deck, I'd definitely side-in much less.
Why would you care about picking a 4 (or higher) cmc card during your first turn(s) when we have Hippy, Hymn, Duress (as a 1/2-off) and Sinkhole. All these cards are played early/early mid game. Then we still have Maelstrom Pulse as 2/3-off (and it can hit planeswalkers and other permanents).
Note that this is a first few turns deck, it doesnt go to the midgame, it strives to keep your opponent stuck in the first few turns. Generally if they make it to midgame, its over for you.
The whole point of playing Inquisition of Kozilek in Eva Green is because it's a very functional early game/first turn play, without any lifeloss. We have enough discard/removal/disruption that gets rid of the higher cmc spells. Also we already slow down our opponents with Sinkhole, Wasteland, Hymn, Hippy and then we haven't even talked about Pulse. This is why Inquisition of Kozilek just seems to make more sense than Thoughtseize (no lifeloss, the perfect first turn/early game one drop discard spell for a tempo orientated deck like Eva Green). We already lose life for goodness (tempo/CA) with Snuff Out and all the fetches.
This is wrong, its not very functional, its more functional, because in the beginning of the game the opponent has more cards in hand- therefore its more likely he'll have cards it can hit.
Being able to take out their free counter and combo enabler seems like a lot more of a tempo driven play...
Early game/First turn I'd rather grab a swords, goblin piledriver/lackey, vial, counterbalance or whatever kind of spell.
Turn 3 youre gonna want to rip the Goblin Ringleader.
You can control what hes going to swords by what creature you play first, theres probably something better to grab.
But thats all mostly beside the point.
Inquisition does not replace thoughtseize. It Splits with it at the most, or acts as 5 & 6.
Inquisition makes more sense in early game (which is why I'm going to playtest it as a 4-off), while Thoughtseize has more potentional mid/late game (that's why I play 2x Duress #instead of Thoughtseize# next to Inquisition, for added discard that can get rid of the higher cmc stuff as well, next to Pulse). I can't wait to test it.
No. Thoughtseize ALWAYS has the most potential to do damage because it can grab the most. When will Inquisition be better than seize? When youre in a straight aggro environment where all the decks curve out at 3cc.
Eva Green is a suicide deck.
@Jamis-
How do you like the summoning trap? Is there a reason you run 4x Leyline and no a split between all the GY hate?
What would you rather have in the mirror in your SB (or pseudo mirror) 2x Compost] or Spreading Algae... or would you not even bother?
Goblins, tokens, merfolk, uw tempo, random jank decks... and im sure theres more i could think of.
An active vial basically means you could lose him when attacking, but more importantly he doesnt have evasion. Vanilla 4/4 for 3cc with drawback? He is tempting, and is probably playable in well known metas. If youre expecting to play zoo all day I'd run him over a good amount of other creatures in the deck.
@Jamis-
How do you like the summoning trap? Is there a reason you run 4x Leyline and no a split between all the GY hate?
Summoning Trap has been very solid for me. I used to run Choke in it's place, but I feel Trap fits the goal of the deck better; Summoning Trap leads to threats and is very tempo-oriented, where Choke slows the game down and makes it last longer. Both are very good cards, and have each won me games, but I've had more success with Trap. I think, if you run it, you need to run more creatures, but this also helps with Jitte, too.
4x Leyline is so I can assure I see it in the opening hand. The tournament I was at yesterday wasn't my normal meta though, so I didn't know it was going to be so grave dependent (Loam, Reanimator, Cephalid Breakfast, Morbid blosssom, and the Dragon Stompy player told me he was considering playing Dredge instead). If I had known the meta beforehand, I would have taken out the Traps (I'm used to seeing a lot more blue, and they would only really helpful against Faeries in that meta) for 2 Relic of Progenitus and another Engineered Plauge.
I'd take out Sinkhole before I take out Inquisition, and taking out Nantuko Shade was definitely the wrong call. My boarding with your deck would be -Sinkholes and -1 Inquisition to add three Grips and two Jittes. Sinkhole does almost nothing against them, they have so many acceleration and mana sources, along with being mono. They have almost no removal, so keeping your threats in is good against them since they always stick and they definitely go toe-to-toe with their threats. Jitte is good to counter their Jittes(which good builds have) and it's colorless removal which can work well even if you have only one creature out, especially with all your flyers.
Cursecatcher, Mother of Runes, Weathered Wayfarer, Noble Hierarch, and Elf stuff. 1-powered creatures aren't very prevalent, but there are still better options than Arrogant Bloodlord. I'm assuming you have a minimal aggro presence since you're switching out Nighthawk for Bloodlord. If that's the case I'd go with Specters over them. Hippy is better in a control/slower meta and Nighthawk is better with lots of aggro/-control decks(tribal/zoo/Bant/other). It's a metagame decision.
As to the TS/IOK debate, I agree with the people who say 3-4 of TS. It's more versatile and the drawback is still negligible.
Summoning Trap has been very solid for me. I used to run Choke in it's place, but I feel Trap fits the goal of the deck better; Summoning Trap leads to threats and is very tempo-oriented, where Choke slows the game down and makes it last longer. Both are very good cards, and have each won me games, but I've had more success with Trap. I think, if you run it, you need to run more creatures, but this also helps with Jitte, too.
The only reason I ask is they have to counter a creature to do it, they will still have mana open for wrath effects, and Choke you just play out asap and if it sticks you win. Though I like its potential and can see how it could be devastating in the first few turns.
4x Leyline is so I can assure I see it in the opening hand. The tournament I was at yesterday wasn't my normal meta though, so I didn't know it was going to be so grave dependent (Loam, Reanimator, Cephalid Breakfast, Morbid blosssom, and the Dragon Stompy player told me he was considering playing Dredge instead). If I had known the meta beforehand, I would have taken out the Traps (I'm used to seeing a lot more blue, and they would only really helpful against Faeries in that meta) for 2 Relic of Progenitus and another Engineered Plauge.
Most people have been playing a 1/1/1/1 split or 2/2/1 split of GY hate so that since its diversified the 'counter hate' cant be the same for each one, upping the chances of your hate to stick.
If that makes sense. Counterpoint being we have Ritual so a bounced leyline can be played out quickly anyhow.
Im still undecided on what i'd prefer to do.
@Souljer whats your sb and sb plan against common decks?
Most people have been playing a 1/1/1/1 split or 2/2/1 split of GY hate so that since its diversified the 'counter hate' cant be the same for each one, upping the chances of your hate to stick.
If that makes sense. Counterpoint being we have Ritual so a bounced leyline can be played out quickly anyhow.
Im still undecided on what i'd prefer to do.
This is true for decks that do not run Leyline.
I also run 4x Leyline in the SB, as seeing it not only against Dredge and Reanimator is decent, but against Aggro Loam and 43 Land is devastating.
@Souljer whats your sb and sb plan against common decks?
Disclaimer: I've recently changed my deck to where I no longer consider it Eva Green. (No Rituals or Sinkholes) But I haven't changed my sideboard since it isn't needed, and I still remember how to play Eva Green.
2-3x Choke
2-3x Perish
2-3x Pernicious Deed
Then a mix of Duress, Umezawa's Jitte, Krosan Grip, and/or grave hate. It depends on my minimal scouting before a tournament. It's usually something like 3/3/3 with 4-5 gy hate and 1 random, usually Grip or Duress. Additional ideas are Tsabo's Web for lands, a miser's Harmonic Convergence/Tranquility for Enchantress/Stax, and switch up some stuff for Plagues if Goblins is making a good showing.
Pretty self-explanatory. Though if you don't get something, and have a specific question, shoot.
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I also run 4x Leyline in the SB, as seeing it not only against Dredge and Reanimator is decent, but against Aggro Loam and 43 Land is devastating.
Yeah. Leyline is the best hate for most of the stuff out there. Last tournament I went to though I couldn't bum Leylines so I used Crypts and Faerie Macabres. The Faerie Macabres get special mention since they are good for extra bodies against Goblins and other decks, and had dual-purpose against Aggro-Loam.
I recently aquired 2 dark depths (1 foil, 1 regular), so i'm thinking about getting two more (i already have hexmages and tombs).
has anyone tested shoving in the hexmage depths combo into eva? i'd be very interested in hearing results. what matchups did it actually help? did it change the way you play the deck? what did your mana base look like?
i've got about $100 to spend this week, and i was going to get a set of original mishra factories (i've already got the 4th edition ones, but i like to pimp).
so are dark depths a waste, and i should get rid of the two i've got? or should i get the other two?
edit
just found this in another thread.. he called it "eva depths".
isn't living wish a wasted turn? does this seem viable?
about grave hate... i can't really explain why i do this, guess it depends on whats being played near me, but i do one of two things: play 4 leylines and 2 other grave haters (6 total), OR 5 non-leyline grave hate.
extirpate has been really good for me lately. reanimator can't counter it, and you should have enought time to win before they can reanimate again. lands just keels over to loosing their loam, hitting trop islands in canadian thresh prevents them from playing any threats. hitting bridge from below will slow dredge down considerably. i've even extirpated a squee from bant-survival to prevent him from gaining any CA.
no one card is the perfect answer, but extirpate is pretty damn good.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
The thing about the depth combo in Eva is that you just have to hope that it falls into your lap. Thats why the living wish is in there, it can wish for both of your combo pieces.
Living Wish wastes the tempo you've gained though in my opinion, it probably isnt worth the trouble.
The problem with extirpate is that it doesnt affect you board position at all unless your opponent has a copy of whatever card you got rid of in their hand. This is why I wont ever advocate it MD and seldom in SB. I think it works well enough as added GY hate but i wouldnt run more than 2-3.
about dark depths..
i actually know a guy who took 11th (i think) at a big starcity tourny recently, with a list almost identical to the one i posted. i actually played against him tonignt.. i was playing a homebrew rock/natural order/planewalker control deck for ☺☺☺☺sNgiggles. it was really good, even after killing two of his tokens he got a third out by wishing for eternal wittness to recure a hexmage for a third one :-/. he was my only loss (3-1).
about extirpate...
first, i would never play it main; and i play 2-3 in the board. in all the senerios i listed, you don't care if they have one in their hand, or about your own board postion... the point is to disrupt what their doing, just like thoughtseize, sinkhole, hymn, ect. it's better disruption against the right deck.
against reanimater, it acts as a splitsecond counterspell; they go to reanimate, you remove the creature, they wasted not only the reanimate spell, but the careful study that put the creature in the yard, and the turns and mana they put into it. smells like tempo to me.
against lands, board postion and tempo don't even matter; take out loam and they loose.
against canadian thresh, IF you wanted to board it in here, IF they don't stifle your waste or counter your sinkhole, taking out their trops would be game ending. but perish works well here too, not sure i'd board extirpate in or not.. depends on my mood.
against ichorid, hitting bridge is huge and should give you enough time to win before they dread return on nacrombias.
against bant survival, hitting squee prevents them from gaining any further card advantage. and hitting iona prevents you from loosing to loyal retainer shinanigans.
i'm not saying to have extirpate as your only grave hate. but due to how well it's been working for me lately, i won't be leaving home with out them.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
So in what meta would you want to switch from a 3-2 thoughtseize/inquisition split to a 4-1 split? In a meta full of aggro? If so, then a 3-2 split or even 3-3 split between thoughtseize/inquisition might be better here. I don't understand why you'd run 4 thoughtseize in an aggro-ish meta when we have acces to Inquisition or 4 thoughtseize in a combo meta when we have acces to Duress. Too much lifeloss is bad for us as well, as we already lose life because of Snuff Out and 7/8 fetches.
You have to come with a tight explanation why you'd run 4 thoughtseize over 3. 'Versatility' while you always lose 2 life with Thoughtseize is a bad argument here.
I think you're thinking of it backwards. I'd play the 3/2 split in an aggro/aggro-control meta, and the 4/1 split in a Combo/Control meta. Something with Landstill and Storm combo would get a 4/1 split. Something with Zoo and Tribal gets a 3/2 split.
about dark depths..
Im not saying it isnt good, I was just saying other than Living Wish you have no real way of finding your combo pieces and just have to hope it falls in your lap.
9/60 cards isnt too bad but I dont know if i'd call it consistent. Just seems to be it would be better in a Rock shell than an Eva Green shell is all im saying.
about extirpate...
I agree with you on all points- basically I just wanted to thwart the "run extirpate MD" discussion before it happened.
About Death's Shadow-
Its only truly good when your at 8-5 life... which in all honestly legacy decks are fast enough these days that you dont need to bring yourself down that far.
And if you are going to bring yourself down that low, I wouldnt do it with confidant because its not controllable enough. I'd pull him and replace him with Hatred and Skeletal Scrying.... Basically you end up moving away from being Tempo Sui (eva green) to just straight Suicide.
I have no problem with using bob, he just isnt right for eva green. Eva green wants instant gratification, not CA over time. The deck you posted average cc is 1.36, you're fine running bob in it.
Im not saying that the goal is to bring your life down that low, but when you have a Death's Shadow on the board you dont mind if you're already winning.
My problem with him is that he is a dead draw in the first (general most crucial) 2-3 turns of the game. If he replaces anything in the deck I would think it would be the miser reanimate people play. He does basically the same thing- for 1 mana you get a big beater (generally) late in the game.
Dont pull out sinkholes for Death's Shadow if you're going to test him. They dont serve the same purpose at all. Pull out a couple creatures.
basically I just wanted to thwart the "run extirpate MD" discussion before it happened.
i can't even begin to count how many times i've seen/heard that one. though i must admit there was a time that i was on the other end of that discussion.
@Popeye:
Play either Yixilid Jailer or Bojuka Bog in your SB for GY hate, since you are playing Living Wish in your MD.
i'm not playing the deck, but i did just order the other 2 depths i needed, so i may be giving it a whirl soon. thanks for the input.. i already thought about jailer, but bog is so new i forgot about it. thanks,
but he's also a dead card in your hand for most of the game. most importantly the early game, inwhich you'd want to stay.. playing a suicide deck.
the point is to disrupt early, and lay down the beats. you're going to be pretty sad after you're done thoughtseizing, hymning, sinking, ready to lay down a beater, and this schmuck is stuck in your hand. i ordered my foils when i first saw him too, but i've yet to play them.. just not that hot in my opinion, but you have fun testing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
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That would be awesome, but *sigh* it is not.
As for the Inquisition of Kozilek, I don't know how I feel about this card anymore. I think it highly depends upon your meta. In my meta game, I think it would be okay, because I face alot of aggro and combo like Belcher (so I'm grabbing just about anything), but if I were to take my deck to a big tournament, I would probably replace the 2 Inquisition's with a Duress and a Reanimate (I love this card in this deck as a singleton).
On a side note, I'm thinking about changing my board around a little bit. Replacing the 2 Pithing Needles with 2 Choke.
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never leave home with out at least 3. almost makes any blue deck scoop if resolved.
Just got back from the tournament. It was a lot smaller than I expected. I was expecting 20+ people to be there, and there was only 8 :/
The list I played was
3 Tombstalker
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Putrid Leech
Instants : 8
4 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual
Sorceries: 13
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Other black fetchlands
3 Bayou
6 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Summoning Trap
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plage
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Anyway, I took first. The decks that were there was Eva Green (me), Aggro Loam, Reanimator, Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Faeries, Cephalid Breakfast, and a homebrew deck.
Round 1: Dragon Stompy
Game 1
I lose the die role, and I'm on the draw. My opening hand only has 1 land (swamp), but it has Dark Ritual and Hypnotic Specter, so I keep. He takes a mulligan down to 6. Turn 1, He lays down a Magus of the Moon. I play Swamp, Ritual, Hyppie and pass. I believe he plays a Sword of Fire and Ice on turn 2. I draw a fetch. I Snuff Out the Magus, crack the fetch for a Bayou, and play a Goyf. I swing with Hyppie and Pass. The next turn I play a Putrid Leech and overpower him with threats.
SB: -3 Nantuko Shade
+3 Krosan Grip
Game 2
He takes a mulligan again. I draw a hand with 2 Fetch lands and a Wasteland. I'm worried about another Turn 1 Magus, but decide to keep anyway. He plays a Turn 1 Magus. I can't draw basic lands, so I pass after playing my fetches/Wastelands. He plays 2 Morphed Gathan Raiders then unmorphs them. I'm beat down before I can draw a Swamp.
SB: -2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+2 Nantuko Shade
Game 3
I keep, he mulligans for the third game in a row. I play Swamp, Ritual, Vampire Nighthawk. He plays a turn 1 Magus of the Moon. I Snuff Out the Magus and crack a fetchland (for a swamp) to play a Nantuko Shade. He gets a Gathan Raiders out next turn. Eventually Shade and Raiders trade and the game is him attacking with Magus of the Moon and me attacking with Nighthawk each turn. I win due to the lifelink.
I win the round (2-1).
Round 2: BGr Death's Shadow/Morbid Bloom Homebrew
Game 1
Turn 1 I play a thoughtseize and see 2 Morbid Blooms, a Death's Shadow, a Fog, and some lands. I have no idea what's going on with his deck, so I take a Morbid Bloom. Turn 2, I sinkhole his Swamp. Turn 3, I play a Hypnotic Specter. Turn 4, I play dark ritual, Vampire Nighthawk, Tombstalker. Turn 5, I Sinkhole on another Swamp he drew and Thoughtseize again, taking something irrelevant (he played a fog in response). Turn 6, I'm swinging for a bunch.
SB: -4 Snuff out
+4 Leyline of the Void
Game 2
I don't draw a Leyline of the Void, but i keep because I have a fetchland, 2 Dark Rituals, and a tombstalker. I play a Turn 1 tombstalker and he plays a turn 2 Putrid Leech. I sinkhole on turn 2 and 3, and we are both attacking (me with Stalker, him with a pumped Leech). I play a Nantuko Shade, and he can't keep up.
I win the round (2-0)
Round 3: Cephalid Breakfast
Game 1
I lose the die role. He mulligans, I keep. He plays a fetchland and passes. I play a Thoughtseize, and he brainstorms in response. I see a Daze, a Brainstorm, and a bunch of land. I take the Brainstorm and decide to play around the Daze. He plays a Cephalid Illusionist and I Snuff Out it. He hardcasts a Narcomemba and swings for a few turns. I sinkhole an Island, and then a plains a turn later. I play a Nighthawk and try to play a Tombstalker a turn later, but it gets FoWed. I win with Nighthawk beatdown.
SB: -4 Hymn to Tourach
-4 Sinkhole
-1 Snuff Out
-3 Wasteland
+4 Leyline of the Void
+3 Engineered Plague
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Summoning Trap
Game 2
We both Mulligan to 6. I get a Leyline in hand and play it. Eventually, he has a Goyf out (2/3), and I have a Shade with 2 untapped lands. He swings, I block, and then he realizes that Goyf is only 2/3 and not 3/4. I try to play an E. Plague on turn 3, but it's forced. He Grips the Leyline, but soon after I get an E. Plague to resolve and I win.
(2-0)
Some post-tournament thoughts about the deck:
Not going to try running it without Bayous anymore. It was a nice thought, but I hadn't realized just how much I fetched for them until I started writing it down.
Also Inquisition of Kozilek is great. It will definitely replace Duress in my build. I'm going to continue the 3/2 split, but may go to 4/1 or 4/2 later on.
[180 classic cube]
Really? That's awesome news man. I personally haven't had the same results. But when you explain it like that. I was prolly pulling the wrong stuff. I will try the 3/2 split of Seize/Inquisition. It sucks about your tournament being so small, but hey at least you placed in the top 8, lol. Great synopsis by the way.
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If you are doing a Inquisition/Duress split, I agree that Inquisition should be the card you run more of (It can grab more). However, Thoughtseize is the card that can grab the most of the three choices, so that's why run it over Duress.
[180 classic cube]
Inquisition makes more sense in a meta filled with Aggro or Zoo. However, I would only ever replace my 2 Duress with it.
Not being able to hit FoW, Tendrils, Belcher, Empty the Warrens, Ad Nauseum or anything else Combo is going to kill you with is terrible.
Thoughtsieze STAYS as a 3-4 of. There is no replacing that card in this deck. Personally I wouldn't play any less than 4, and 6 if I could.
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NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
i've got to agree 1000% with this.
personally, i was asking how inquisition tested in the duress spot, NOT the thought seize spot.
however, IF my meta was all agro, i might consider doing the 3/2 split like jamis did. otherwise i'll be more interested in a 4/1 or 4/2 split of thoughtsieze/inquisition.
ps..
Jamis, since you're already running the forest, after killing his magus, i would probably have fetched out the basic in fear of another moon effect. i also don't understand why you boarded out the shades after game one. but i am glad that someone else likes the miser leach! was that the only game you got him out?
i've never played against the breakfast deck, and at the moment i can't quite remember how it plays out (it's my night off and i'm downing captain and cokes :cheers:).. but regardless of anything, i think you WAY oversideboarded. you basicly played a completely different deck game two. i've been experimenting with tempo faeries lately, and was makeing the same mistake. i was winning my games for sure, but i think i got lucky. when sideboarding, you should only need a few cards per deck. anything more than that waters down your own deck too much and you loose focus. just food for thought, though i'll eat my own foot tomorrow if i read this and realize i said something stupid.
I grabbed the Dual because he only had 1 card in hand (he removed a Spirit guide for the moon, and then again for the sword) and I was swinging with Hyppie that turn. He could have topdecked another moon, so I considered the forest, but decided that it was fairly unlikely that he would draw another moon effect.
Boarding out the Shades was because I knew I wouldn't get to pump them much with Moon effects, I really wasn't sure what to take out. It wasn't until Game 3 that I realized Inquisition isn't too great against him since all his spells cost 3 or more, so I wouldn't really be stealing early turn plays with it, plus the deck tends to dump it's hand by itself.
And, yeah I believe that was the only game I saw the Leech.
Yeah, I knew I was bringing in too much, too, but there was a lot I wanted to bring in (obviously), and quite a few cards that were dead in that match-up. Leyline and Plague both shut down his combo, so those were needed to come in. Grip was to take out AEther Vial and in case he brought in grave hate against me to keep me off Tombstalkers and Goyfs (he didn't and I think he actually sided out the Vials, but if he did, it might have been able to slow me down enough for him to assemble the combo). Trap was because he had tons of counter-protection, so I figured if he countered a Hyppie, I might be able to get something else into play.
Likewise, I figured Land destruction wasn't great against him, and Hymn had potential to actually help him. Snuff out can't kill Sutured Ghoul, and I already had Plague to kill the other parts of his combo, and Leyline and Stalker to hose Goyf, but I left 3 just in case.
If we went to game 3, I'd definitely put back the Grips and probably the Traps, but It was my first time I played against the deck (and really actually saw it played, too), so I wasn't too sure on how to fight it post-board. Now that I know the deck, I'd definitely side-in much less.
[180 classic cube]
This is wrong, its not very functional, its more functional, because in the beginning of the game the opponent has more cards in hand- therefore its more likely he'll have cards it can hit.
Being able to take out their free counter and combo enabler seems like a lot more of a tempo driven play...
Turn 3 youre gonna want to rip the Goblin Ringleader.
You can control what hes going to swords by what creature you play first, theres probably something better to grab.
But thats all mostly beside the point.
Inquisition does not replace thoughtseize. It Splits with it at the most, or acts as 5 & 6.
No. Thoughtseize ALWAYS has the most potential to do damage because it can grab the most. When will Inquisition be better than seize? When youre in a straight aggro environment where all the decks curve out at 3cc.
Eva Green is a suicide deck.
@Jamis-
How do you like the summoning trap? Is there a reason you run 4x Leyline and no a split between all the GY hate?
What would you rather have in the mirror in your SB (or pseudo mirror) 2x Compost] or Spreading Algae... or would you not even bother?
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4/4 where the drawback can be forgotten (there are nearly no 1-0 power critters in legacy as far as i remember)
any thoughts?
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Legacy:
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Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
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An active vial basically means you could lose him when attacking, but more importantly he doesnt have evasion. Vanilla 4/4 for 3cc with drawback? He is tempting, and is probably playable in well known metas. If youre expecting to play zoo all day I'd run him over a good amount of other creatures in the deck.
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Summoning Trap has been very solid for me. I used to run Choke in it's place, but I feel Trap fits the goal of the deck better; Summoning Trap leads to threats and is very tempo-oriented, where Choke slows the game down and makes it last longer. Both are very good cards, and have each won me games, but I've had more success with Trap. I think, if you run it, you need to run more creatures, but this also helps with Jitte, too.
4x Leyline is so I can assure I see it in the opening hand. The tournament I was at yesterday wasn't my normal meta though, so I didn't know it was going to be so grave dependent (Loam, Reanimator, Cephalid Breakfast, Morbid blosssom, and the Dragon Stompy player told me he was considering playing Dredge instead). If I had known the meta beforehand, I would have taken out the Traps (I'm used to seeing a lot more blue, and they would only really helpful against Faeries in that meta) for 2 Relic of Progenitus and another Engineered Plauge.
[180 classic cube]
I'd take out Sinkhole before I take out Inquisition, and taking out Nantuko Shade was definitely the wrong call. My boarding with your deck would be -Sinkholes and -1 Inquisition to add three Grips and two Jittes. Sinkhole does almost nothing against them, they have so many acceleration and mana sources, along with being mono. They have almost no removal, so keeping your threats in is good against them since they always stick and they definitely go toe-to-toe with their threats. Jitte is good to counter their Jittes(which good builds have) and it's colorless removal which can work well even if you have only one creature out, especially with all your flyers.
Cursecatcher, Mother of Runes, Weathered Wayfarer, Noble Hierarch, and Elf stuff. 1-powered creatures aren't very prevalent, but there are still better options than Arrogant Bloodlord. I'm assuming you have a minimal aggro presence since you're switching out Nighthawk for Bloodlord. If that's the case I'd go with Specters over them. Hippy is better in a control/slower meta and Nighthawk is better with lots of aggro/-control decks(tribal/zoo/Bant/other). It's a metagame decision.
As to the TS/IOK debate, I agree with the people who say 3-4 of TS. It's more versatile and the drawback is still negligible.
The only reason I ask is they have to counter a creature to do it, they will still have mana open for wrath effects, and Choke you just play out asap and if it sticks you win. Though I like its potential and can see how it could be devastating in the first few turns.
Most people have been playing a 1/1/1/1 split or 2/2/1 split of GY hate so that since its diversified the 'counter hate' cant be the same for each one, upping the chances of your hate to stick.
If that makes sense. Counterpoint being we have Ritual so a bounced leyline can be played out quickly anyhow.
Im still undecided on what i'd prefer to do.
@Souljer whats your sb and sb plan against common decks?
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This is true for decks that do not run Leyline.
I also run 4x Leyline in the SB, as seeing it not only against Dredge and Reanimator is decent, but against Aggro Loam and 43 Land is devastating.
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NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
2-3x Choke
2-3x Perish
2-3x Pernicious Deed
Then a mix of Duress, Umezawa's Jitte, Krosan Grip, and/or grave hate. It depends on my minimal scouting before a tournament. It's usually something like 3/3/3 with 4-5 gy hate and 1 random, usually Grip or Duress. Additional ideas are Tsabo's Web for lands, a miser's Harmonic Convergence/Tranquility for Enchantress/Stax, and switch up some stuff for Plagues if Goblins is making a good showing.
Pretty self-explanatory. Though if you don't get something, and have a specific question, shoot.
Yeah. Leyline is the best hate for most of the stuff out there. Last tournament I went to though I couldn't bum Leylines so I used Crypts and Faerie Macabres. The Faerie Macabres get special mention since they are good for extra bodies against Goblins and other decks, and had dual-purpose against Aggro-Loam.
I recently aquired 2 dark depths (1 foil, 1 regular), so i'm thinking about getting two more (i already have hexmages and tombs).
has anyone tested shoving in the hexmage depths combo into eva? i'd be very interested in hearing results. what matchups did it actually help? did it change the way you play the deck? what did your mana base look like?
i've got about $100 to spend this week, and i was going to get a set of original mishra factories (i've already got the 4th edition ones, but i like to pimp).
so are dark depths a waste, and i should get rid of the two i've got? or should i get the other two?
edit
just found this in another thread.. he called it "eva depths".
4x Bayou
3x Dark Depths
2x Forest
3x Marsh Flats
4x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker
3x Vampire Hexmage
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Living Wish
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Smother
4x Thoughtseize
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Dark Depths
3x Engineered Plague
1x Eternal Witness
2x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip
2x Life from the Loam
1x Vampire Hexmage
isn't living wish a wasted turn? does this seem viable?
about grave hate... i can't really explain why i do this, guess it depends on whats being played near me, but i do one of two things: play 4 leylines and 2 other grave haters (6 total), OR 5 non-leyline grave hate.
extirpate has been really good for me lately. reanimator can't counter it, and you should have enought time to win before they can reanimate again. lands just keels over to loosing their loam, hitting trop islands in canadian thresh prevents them from playing any threats. hitting bridge from below will slow dredge down considerably. i've even extirpated a squee from bant-survival to prevent him from gaining any CA.
no one card is the perfect answer, but extirpate is pretty damn good.
Living Wish wastes the tempo you've gained though in my opinion, it probably isnt worth the trouble.
The problem with extirpate is that it doesnt affect you board position at all unless your opponent has a copy of whatever card you got rid of in their hand. This is why I wont ever advocate it MD and seldom in SB. I think it works well enough as added GY hate but i wouldnt run more than 2-3.
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i actually know a guy who took 11th (i think) at a big starcity tourny recently, with a list almost identical to the one i posted. i actually played against him tonignt.. i was playing a homebrew rock/natural order/planewalker control deck for ☺☺☺☺sNgiggles. it was really good, even after killing two of his tokens he got a third out by wishing for eternal wittness to recure a hexmage for a third one :-/. he was my only loss (3-1).
about extirpate...
first, i would never play it main; and i play 2-3 in the board. in all the senerios i listed, you don't care if they have one in their hand, or about your own board postion... the point is to disrupt what their doing, just like thoughtseize, sinkhole, hymn, ect. it's better disruption against the right deck.
against reanimater, it acts as a splitsecond counterspell; they go to reanimate, you remove the creature, they wasted not only the reanimate spell, but the careful study that put the creature in the yard, and the turns and mana they put into it. smells like tempo to me.
against lands, board postion and tempo don't even matter; take out loam and they loose.
against canadian thresh, IF you wanted to board it in here, IF they don't stifle your waste or counter your sinkhole, taking out their trops would be game ending. but perish works well here too, not sure i'd board extirpate in or not.. depends on my mood.
against ichorid, hitting bridge is huge and should give you enough time to win before they dread return on nacrombias.
against bant survival, hitting squee prevents them from gaining any further card advantage. and hitting iona prevents you from loosing to loyal retainer shinanigans.
i'm not saying to have extirpate as your only grave hate. but due to how well it's been working for me lately, i won't be leaving home with out them.
I think you're thinking of it backwards. I'd play the 3/2 split in an aggro/aggro-control meta, and the 4/1 split in a Combo/Control meta. Something with Landstill and Storm combo would get a 4/1 split. Something with Zoo and Tribal gets a 3/2 split.
[180 classic cube]
Im not saying it isnt good, I was just saying other than Living Wish you have no real way of finding your combo pieces and just have to hope it falls in your lap.
9/60 cards isnt too bad but I dont know if i'd call it consistent. Just seems to be it would be better in a Rock shell than an Eva Green shell is all im saying.
about extirpate...
I agree with you on all points- basically I just wanted to thwart the "run extirpate MD" discussion before it happened.
About Death's Shadow-
Its only truly good when your at 8-5 life... which in all honestly legacy decks are fast enough these days that you dont need to bring yourself down that far.
And if you are going to bring yourself down that low, I wouldnt do it with confidant because its not controllable enough. I'd pull him and replace him with Hatred and Skeletal Scrying.... Basically you end up moving away from being Tempo Sui (eva green) to just straight Suicide.
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Play either Yixilid Jailer or Bojuka Bog in your SB for GY hate, since you are playing Living Wish in your MD.
Im not saying that the goal is to bring your life down that low, but when you have a Death's Shadow on the board you dont mind if you're already winning.
My problem with him is that he is a dead draw in the first (general most crucial) 2-3 turns of the game. If he replaces anything in the deck I would think it would be the miser reanimate people play. He does basically the same thing- for 1 mana you get a big beater (generally) late in the game.
Dont pull out sinkholes for Death's Shadow if you're going to test him. They dont serve the same purpose at all. Pull out a couple creatures.
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i can't even begin to count how many times i've seen/heard that one. though i must admit there was a time that i was on the other end of that discussion.
i'm not playing the deck, but i did just order the other 2 depths i needed, so i may be giving it a whirl soon. thanks for the input.. i already thought about jailer, but bog is so new i forgot about it. thanks,
but he's also a dead card in your hand for most of the game. most importantly the early game, inwhich you'd want to stay.. playing a suicide deck.
the point is to disrupt early, and lay down the beats. you're going to be pretty sad after you're done thoughtseizing, hymning, sinking, ready to lay down a beater, and this schmuck is stuck in your hand. i ordered my foils when i first saw him too, but i've yet to play them.. just not that hot in my opinion, but you have fun testing.