I realize Mill is often thought of as horrible in Legacy (and it very well may be), but I thought it was about time we take a gander at the other win con of MtG. Clearly, Legacy is a format rich with GY based decks and, recently, Emrakul in multiples. This doesn't look too promising for a Mill archetype, but if these problems can be addressed, perhaps a Mill deck could be made viable.
A U/B build lends itself best to a Mill archetype. Glimpse the Unthinkable is a house, and perhaps the most instrumental cards in building a viable Mill deck (Extirpate + Surgical Extraction) require the black mana. While dual colors can lead to Wasteland weaknesses, fetches are needed to get Hedron Crab up and running anyways.
This is what I've thrown together. I feel like it can be incredibly brutal, especially with 8 Extirpate effects. Dredge and (to a certain extent) Reanimator, conventionally huge hurdles for Mill decks, can be dealt with by removing their threats. In fact, it works with most one-dimensional decks, including Sneak + Tell. While you have to bank on an early Emrakul in the GY to Extirpate, you can strip them of their threats rather easily (however, I have not had the time to actually test these MUs, and they are basically just intuition). The deck basically functions as a burn/control collab.
From what I can see, Aggro seems to be the biggest problem as their threats are diverse and Extirpate is weakened. To address this, the sideboard could feature create destruction spells (a-la black) to stall while you mill away (hopefully) some of their threats.
With regards to card choice, I simply don't know every Mill card, but I feel like I've hit most of them. Brainfreeze seems like interesting tech against Storm combo in the board. Thought Scour could help address the CA issue (although Snapcaster may nullify this problem enough) as well as Street Wraith. Force of Will simply seems necessary in any blue deck, but perhaps the inherent CA is too much. Daze seems perfect as it synergizes with Hedron Crab.
I dunno, this may be an unrealistic dream, but it seems decently possible. With that, I'll open the floor. Thoughts?
The big problem with mill, IMO, is that it's like bad burn. Burn spells do anywhere from 3-10 damage a card, which is 1/7 to 1/2 of your life total. In equivalence, mill spells would have to mill 8.6-30 cards per card. Mill also gets shut down by Leyline of Sanctity. Furthmore, almost all decks use the graveyard in some way. Goyf and KotR get bigger with cards in the 'yard, for example, you'll put fatties in the 'yard for Reanimator, giving targets for Goblin Welder, and possibly fueling Past in Flames. You can only Extirpate so many threats. There are also more Snappy targets for control decks.
Mill, however, can win the game by just surviving long enough. Every turn 1/60th of your opponent's lifeforce, which is their library in this case, gets taken out. Cards like Tome Scour (Which you have up as Tomb Scour btw xD), Dream Twist and Memory Sluice don't quite hit the 8.6 card margin. Instead, I feel that you'll be able to mill a lot of cards with {Haunting Echoes}, removing win conditions along the way, while also damaging the graveyard. The other cards I think should be lands to fuel Hedron Crab, and also Haunting Echoes if you decide to run it. Moat or Moat + Humility is a great way to not get killed while milling. So is Ensnaring Bridge.
I just don't think this deck will do well against heavy early aggression, like from Goblins, or against combo unless you can land plenty of countermagic. Brainstorm with fetches allows you to continue running the low land count, as well as search for countermagic. Extirpate and Surgical will help a lot against combo if you can survive the initial wave, but you'll still need to land some stuff before they combo off with other cards.
Lastly, Street Wraith does not provide CA because it is a 1 for 1 trade. This goes for all cantrips, as well. I don't think this deck needs CA, though, because you'll be tapping out almost every turn with the low land count.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Green = Creation of life
White = Preservation of life
Black = Death
Red = Destruction
Blue = ...Wizards?
I really like UB mill. I had a standard deck during Alara/Zendikar that did this and it was very fun to play. Honestly its a tier 2 strategy at best, but its can be pretty fun to play and is pretty effective.
If your opponent starts out the game with 53 cards in their library, by 5th turn they will only have 48-49 cards left (if they haven't drawn extra). That means you would need to mill them for 7 cards 7 times, or for 6 cards 8 times, etc. If there were more Mind Sculpt type cards you could have more of a burn style mill deck, but there aren't enough cheap high mill cards. Burn has 4 solid 1 cost 3 damage cards. Blue would need the equivalent of 4 useable 1 cost 8 mill cards to have a chance at mill racing.
You are not going to outrace most decks so you need some board control. First of all I think you really need to put in a least a bit of creature kill. 3 or 4 Terror type kills and 2-3 sweepers like Damnation or Infest.
Second the whole reason I was playing UB mill was that Black has creature kill but also has a couple of awesome mill cards. Glimpse the Unthinkable you already have but two very strong mill cards are Mind Funeral and Haunting Echoes. Both of these are a bit slow but pack much more punch.
If you have some board control it should slow them down a bit so you can play some bombs. Mind Funeral gets at least four cards, but I find it usually gets 6-12 which is pretty good for the cost. You could try one or two and side in more if they are playing a deck with few lands. Also the rampant land fetching in Legacy might make this a bit more potent. Could add 2-3 of these.
Haunting Echoes is a game ender. Yes it costs 5 but if you have milled 15+ of their cards and you play this baby it usually leaves them a deck with land and little else. Many times upon playing this my opponents just scoop rather than going through the agony of exiling 20+ cards from their deck. I would put in at least 2 of these
A bit of targeted discard would also help slow them down and keep early threats from getting too big. Mill offers no board control or protection unlike burn so I would probably include 3-4 of a one cost discards like Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress, Despise, etc.
To make room for this other stuff I recommend getting rid of the Memory Sluice, because I think it is the weakest mill card, or do 2 Tome Scour and 2 Memory Sluice. Also maybe do 2 Extirpate and 2 Surgical Extraction. Those effects help you in the long run but don't deal with immediate threats so you don't want a whole hand full of them.
Those are some really good points. I hadn't thought of treating this as a mid-range kind of deck. I agree that Aggro is still a big problem, and creature destruction will probably have to see its way into the main deck, and, of course, Emrakul is still a huge problem. While you can Extirpate and Surgical Extract him from the deck, the GY is still gonna shuffle and slow you down a lot. Maybe Tormod's Crypt in the SB could help with that.
While a mid-range strategy could be very interesting, this deck can still be extremely quick. This is a goldfish I got earlier today. Let's say you're on the play:
Seems like a pretty consistent Turn 4-5 kill from what I've goldfished, and that's without Archive Trap as well. Again, that's ignoring disruption and Emrakul-like problems.
The other thing I just realized is that Wheel of Sun and Moon (which seems to be a pretty relevant card in the meta nowadays) is a hose against this deck. It's like Null Rod against Affinity. With UB it seems like countering+Extirpate is really the only thing you can do. Any way (besides bouncing) this deck could potentially address a resolved Wheel?
Well the good thing about mill not being a common legacy strategy is that most people probably do not have anti-mill tech in their sideboard. If you think they will for some reason side in some extra counters or bounce. I think Tormod's Crypt or something like it is a good solution also.
I am impressed that your deck is getting such consistent goldfishing. I made a similar mono blue Howling Mine mill deck (with Hedron Crab) that did not work out quite that well. The first game people may laugh when you play Hedron Crab, but the second game the will unload on that poor little 0/2, so the strategy might not work so smoothly, of course.
If you are happy with its speed that is good. After some real playtesting you can see if that configuration works. I really think that 8 Extirpate effects is too much. The problem with it is the same problem mill has in general, it gets you closer to victory but does nothing to improve your board position. Also I feel like a game where you don't get the crab or they take it out you will run out of gas really fast. The scenario you describe with them taking out your crab turn two, plus you playing a couple Extirpate effects leaves you nearly empty handed and no way to deal with their threats, which are usually pretty mean in legacy. Then you are sunk and they have 30-40 cards left.
If you don't want to add the midrange stuff at least consider putting in 2-3 spot kill spells and 3-5 cheap discard spells to slow them down a bit and give you a chance if things don't break your way.
That's true, this deck does run out of steam pretty quickly. Without Hedron Crab online, I can really see this deck getting thrashed. Perhaps it does lend itself more to the mid-range style of play. These goldfishes are, however, still without Archive Trap, which can be a pretty powerful. My first game against another deck (Maverick) I ended up with a T2 win after 3 T0 Archive Traps. Pretty cool, but in no way reliable.
8 Extirpates may be a bit much, and I may move 4 or so to the Sideboard. I think they need to be in there somewhere, simply because you NEED them to beat Emrakul. Discard could work as well, I'll have to look into reshaping this deck a bit more.
I'm not even sure Mill is viable in Legacy. If it weren't for Emrakul, GY, and anti-mill cards intended to hurt other more T1-1.5 decks, I think it could be. At this point, it's just a fun little project of mine, but I think there might still be some hidden potential there.
Copenhagen, don't stop developing this. I have wanted to do this for almost a year now, but I have been unable to find the time. Similarly, I have been following our thread so far. IMHO, you are doing it right so far.
Also, and this is very important, use Brainstorm and Ponder to prevent the deck from running out of steam. And possibly Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy. By replacing some of the less effective mill cards with these you get a streamlined deck too. Don't bother with Force of Will for now, until you have the basics down. Basics such as - is it viable at all? What is the land supply like? What are the best spells?
I have been toying around with Mill decks once in a while, even playing Grindclock in a standard Mill deck during the Zendikar/Scars or Mirrodin Standard season. At the moment I actually felt now is a really good time to play Mill, what with Snapcaster flashing back another Mill spell could be deadly.
Just wish to point out a few things here:
I realised a Leyline of Sanctity could stop our deck cold. But then again Blue is the color of bounce so it shouldn't be too much of a hassle. Chain of Vapor in the sideboard?
I would try to add in Devastion Tide, as in Mill decks we frequently need a reset button - especially in aggro matchups. I used to run Evacuation back then, but I think Tide is better even though it is a sorcery. Thought Scour and Devastation Tide works very well too, you can try to activate it on your opponent turn via Thought Scour's cantrip. I could see Thought Scour taking the place of Tome Scour or Memory Sluice to start with.
I play U/B Mill (casually as of now). I'm glad to see Extirpate maindeck. Many think it's just sidebaord, but it's not in Mill. You quickly get what I call a "menu" of options to pick from...to rip right out of their deck. I agree 4 is enough though, and although Extraction is "free"; Extirpate is uncounterable, so it's better.
The running out of steam problem can be easily solved with 4 Visions of Beyond. In Mill, this cards reads "Pay U, Draw Three cards." i.e. Ancestral Recall. It has quickly become a Mill-Core card IMO.
Throwing in a wall might seem like a laughable idea. However unlike a one-hit target kill, it can be a recurring defensive stopper. Fog Bank fits this bill perfectly. If you play a wall, you now have enough creatures to make Memory Sluice a viable 8 cards for (U/B) option.
We could consider Plumeveil as a defensive stopper as well, although 3 CMC could be a tad too slow, it could easily take out an opponent creature. On the other hand, I'll might go without creatures, even Hedron Crab(I'll keep Snapcaster) for more mill spells, in an attempt to render opponent's removal spells useless.
I'm wondering which is better - Ancestral Vision or Vision of Beyond? I think Vision of Beyond gets my tilt here since Ancestral Vision is only better if we draw it on the opening two turns or so.
Vision of Beyond on opponent turn could also turn Devastation Tide's Miracle effect on. Then again whether Tide is the topdeck is another story.
Visions of Beyond is brilliant. That makes me consider Shelldock Isle, but I wonder what we would be hiding. That might be the way to go, but the conversation as to what to hide basically redefines the deck with the answer. So for now, I am going to pretend that I did not think of that. Here is a possible deck to consider.
I like the idea of having just the four crabs for creatures. It reduces the effectiveness of opposing removal. A deck like this that is entirely stack dependent and yet not likely to roll over to counterspells has some potential. The fact that it is probably 2 turns slower than typical combo could be a problem though. It has to either get faster or have some excellent defensive ability in those remaining cards.
Visions of Beyond is brilliant. That makes me consider Shelldock Isle, but I wonder what we would be hiding. That might be the way to go, but the conversation as to what to hide basically redefines the deck with the answer. So for now, I am going to pretend that I did not think of that. Here is a possible deck to consider.
I like the idea of having just the four crabs for creatures. It reduces the effectiveness of opposing removal. A deck like this that is entirely stack dependent and yet not likely to roll over to counterspells has some potential. The fact that it is probably 2 turns slower than typical combo could be a problem though. It has to either get faster or have some excellent defensive ability in those remaining cards.
Looks pretty good. I can't help but think that with Visions of Beyond (crazy good card by the way, never seen it before) that 8+12 cantrips are a bit overkill. The 8 extirpates (while I still love that idea) may prove to be overkill as well. And with regards to Gitaxian Probe, does Thought Scour not do its job better? We can't really do anything about the cards in their hand anyways. How about something like:
And if Ponder proves too good to cut, I think Tome Scour > Dream Twist. Sure, flashback is nice, but your essentially paying 2 more mana for 1 more mill. Doesn't add up.
I agree that Hedron Crab is our only creature. Snapcaster Mage is too slow to be effective. In decks like RUG, he can bring answers back. This deck doesn't really have answers.
Off the top of my head, Daze seems like the most synergistic defense card to me. It can be played around, sure, but it works well to keep feeding Hedron Crab and lets you keep tapping out. Just a thought.
Also, as a side note (and sideboard note), Brain Freeze is some really interesting anti-storm tech. (Note: They do tend to silence you before going off, so maybe it's trash.) Tormod's Crypt still seems necessary for Emrakul and the like. I'll have to test a list like this out a bit to get a feel for the speed. Mid-range could still be a possibility, but it just doesn't seem right to me.
I am with copenhagen1221 on the cantrips. I would much rather draw a Tome Scour than a Ponder. Cantrip cards provide no card advantage, they just make your draws better. Brainstorm is good with fetch lands but you are not running that many lands so it is not quite as good, but still could be a keeper.
I also agree that if you are not putting in any creature kill or discard that Snapcaster Mage is less useful. But I really think that adding maybe 3 creature kill and 3-4 discard spells and keeping the Snapcasters would be much more effective. Snapcaster Mage actually does generate some card advantage and lets you reuse your mill spells, draw spells, kill and discard.
I am unsure about Visions of Beyond. When it works its incredible, but you don't want dead cards in your opening hand. I might only run three. Also I think that Mind Sculpt may actually be pretty decent, it mills 7 for 2, which is similar to Tome Scour (5 for 1) and better than Dream Twist (3 for 6).
I am not a very big fan of walls unless they have a specific helpful ability, I would rather be proactive and strip the creatures from their hand our kill them outright. Depending on your manabase you might also consider Hymn to Tourach or Wrench Mind. These give your opponent negative card advantage and power up your Visions a bit faster. If you can get your opponent top decking then you are in a really strong position.
For the sideboard, maybe some Spell Pierce, Tormod's Crypt, couple more Damnation for creature heavy decks, an extra creature kill or two and some meta help.
My mates is gonna laugh at my using of Polluted Delta and Underground Sea (especially I had a hard time getting a set of NM Underground Sea recently) for a mill deck, wait till I mill them FTW!!!:D
My mates is gonna laugh at my using of Polluted Delta and Underground Sea (especially I had a hard time getting a set of NM Underground Sea recently) for a mill deck, wait till I mill them FTW!!!:D
That looks like a pretty strong list to me! My only advice is that Dream Twist and Thought Scour are pretty weak mill cards, I would rather play Tome Scour or Mind Sculpt, they just have a lot more bang for the buck and are really solid when flashed back with Snapcaster.
4 Devastation Tide seems excessive. It might be worth throwing in a couple Gitaxian Probe into this deck. I think this card has really good synergy with the Extirpate effects. You look at their hand, and if there are any cards in their graveyard same as in their hand you can Extirpate that. Their hand goes down one you draw a card.
Visions of Beyond is hampered a bit by all the exiling of graveyard cards, plus it does not play well with Devastation Tide, so I would probably only run three.
I still would like to advocate putting in a couple discard or creature kill. 3 Ostracize, for example, gets that early threat out of their hand and into the graveyard before they can play it. It also lets you Extirpate their best creature early in the game, plus as stated above in the Gitaxian Probe example, you get to see their hand. When you look a their hand and see they have 2 Kird Ape and you just milled one, you Extirpate that and they are basically finished.
Okay, so I've been doing some testing, and, while not great, I think this deck shows some real potential. Of course, it still has a great deal of problems, but there is something good there. Some thoughts:
1. Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are amazing. I fully endorse running a set of each. For a while I thought they were just plugging up my hands, but I realized that those are the cards that are going to make this deck competitive. Mill is not particularly fast. It does alright, but it simply can't keep up in Legacy. These two cards set up a different strategy - mill some cards, then exile your opponents key cards. I've had a few matches against Combo Elves, and every game Extirpate/Surgical Extraction left their library a hollow shell of a deck. No Glimpses, no Druids, etc., etc. This actually starts to make me think that the primary strategy of this deck shouldn't necessarily be to Mill ASAP, but make your opponent move like molasses.
2. Mind Funeral blows. I said it. It is way too unreliable to get the job done.
3. Force of Will is too much CDA. This deck loses steam quickly, and will often find itself in top-deck mode. FOW is usually uncastable. That being said, it may actually find itself a SB spot for combo.
4. Visions of Beyond is a MUST 4-of. Mill needs the CA it provides, and it's fairly rare you run out of steam before the 20-mill mark. If you do, you've lost already. Just wait until you chain Visions into a Glimpse for the win, and you will flat fall in love with it.
5. Daze is a great defensive card. It stops some of the early drops that can harm us big time (Delver of Secrets, Targmogoyf) from hitting the field. If that wasn't enough, it can often give you another landfall for Hedron Crab.
6. Tarmogoyf is a HUGE problem. I've had T2 and T3 6/7 to 7/8 Goyfs running around, and we can't race that. We need to have a card that can stop this guy. Tormod's Crypt has actually done a pretty good job with this I must say.
7. I've been trying to find a cheap way of killing off problem creatures, because they exist all over the place. At first I tried Dismember because it can be pretty cheap, but found that it kills your life AND can't hit most Goyfs. Not good. I've since moved on to what I think is a pretty good answer. Ghastly Demise. You will rack up some graveyard cards pretty early with your cheap spells and fetches, so killing most creatures isn't a problem. It still doesn't usually hit Goyf, but Tormod's Crypt has solved that problem a few times now.
The decklist I'm currently running has been doing pretty well, although I'm absolutely replacing Mind Funeral. So far I've been winning most of the matches on the back of Extirpate and, surprisingly Thought Scour. I do, however, have yet to go up against Emrakul. We'll see how that goes when I come to it. Here's the list:
The sideboard is more than open for change, but Tormod's Crypt is a must. Blue Elemental Blast was in there for Goblins and to an extent burn, but who knows. Force of Will is perhaps the strangest there, and I haven't played enough against combo to know if it's worth it. Well, those are my thoughts. I'm actually getting pretty interested in a more Mid-Range strategy focusing on the Extirpate Effects. All I know is Mill very well could be competitive if we keep hammering away at it.
Extract is only a one-for-one, and problem creatures (Delver, Tarmogoyf, etc.) are usually 3-4 ofs, which kills its usefulness. If it could exile a whole set, that would be an entirely different story, and an entirely broken card. As it is, the most I could see Extract possibly doing is exiling Tendrils of Agony, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in Combo Elves, and other one-of kill conditions. Dream Halls, for example, could be rather susceptible to this. Against aggro decks, I just don't see it doing much.
That looks like a pretty strong list to me! My only advice is that Dream Twist and Thought Scour are pretty weak mill cards, I would rather play Tome Scour or Mind Sculpt, they just have a lot more bang for the buck and are really solid when flashed back with Snapcaster.
4 Devastation Tide seems excessive. It might be worth throwing in a couple Gitaxian Probe into this deck. I think this card has really good synergy with the Extirpate effects. You look at their hand, and if there are any cards in their graveyard same as in their hand you can Extirpate that. Their hand goes down one you draw a card.
Visions of Beyond is hampered a bit by all the exiling of graveyard cards, plus it does not play well with Devastation Tide, so I would probably only run three.
I still would like to advocate putting in a couple discard or creature kill. 3 Ostracize, for example, gets that early threat out of their hand and into the graveyard before they can play it. It also lets you Extirpate their best creature early in the game, plus as stated above in the Gitaxian Probe example, you get to see their hand. When you look a their hand and see they have 2 Kird Ape and you just milled one, you Extirpate that and they are basically finished.
I admit Devastation Tide might be excessive, I had this thought of playing 4 of them partly because of some of the games I witness lately with the Counterbalance decks running Terminus and Entreat the Angels. I realised that deck actually almost win the game everytime it managed to resolve at least 1x Terminus, thus I felt for our Mill deck to successfully get the job done, resolving a Devastation Tide is essential to that happening.
I also agree Dream Twist and Thought Scour are pretty underwhelming, but I can't really see Tome Scour or Mind Sculpt as really good either, my meta is very U dominated, with plenty of decks playing 4x Spell Pierce. Dream Twist is useful against these decks, while Thought Scour has another function in helping to trigger the Miracle effect in Devastation Tide. Same for Vision of Beyond.
Definitely need to finetune some of the cards in the list as you pointed out. Gitaxian Probe is also something I'm looking at.
@copenhagen1221
Problem with Mind Funeral is the random and inconsistent way the card mills. Then again, most legacy decks runs on average of 20 lands (including fetches so by the time Mind Funeral lands they should have even fewer lands in their library), so it should be able to hit many cards but it's erratic nature makes it difficult for us to "schedule" our mill spells or plan our sequence properly.
-If you say that the Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are really working, then I will jump on board with 4 each.
-Mind Funeral is a bit slow for Legacy I suppose. I am going to continue advocating some cheap discard, especially if it lets you look at their hand (Thoughtseize, Duress, Ostracize, Inquisition of Kozilek). If you know whats in their hand then your Extirpates and Surgical Extractions can double as discard, by exiling things in their graveyard right out of their hand as well. Might also try 2 Haunting Echoes, a little slow but devestating.
-Against combo, if Force of Will isn't working for you I have always liked Mindbreak Trap.
Well the thing about Extirpate and Surgical Extraction is that they start to turn the deck into somewhat of a control deck. It's a bit slower but screws the strategy of the other deck. Mill becomes not only the kill condition, but the disruption as well. I think it creates a more interesting strategy. This new kind of strategy could allow for a Haunting Echoes kill-con. With Mill being such a relatively unexplored Legacy strategy, I think all of these tempo differences are worth exploring. The optimal list will probably take from both strategies.
I think targeted discard is worth looking into. Getting a look at their hand can be big and coupling a T1 discard with T1 Surgical Extraction could stop a one-dimensional deck in its tracks.
Snuff Out seems better than Ghastly Demise or Smother in most situations, especially with a lot of decks running Thalia. Paying 4 life to kill a Tarmogoyf is fine as long as you're not getting hit for 6-8.
Flusterstorm is a great option against Combo, generally better than Mindbreak Trap because you're leaving plenty of mana untapped until their end of turn and they have a much harder time fighting it with Force of Will or Spell Pierce.
Undiscovered Paradise could be cool? Repeatedly activating Hedron Crabs could give you that extra little bit of reach, and the deck isn't exactly mana hungry.
I'm thinking Snapcaster Mage might be good in the same way that Dream Twist is good, as it lets you get a desired effect despite the existence of Duress effects and/or countermagic, and it's a blocker which is relevant...a lot.
As to the "Emrakul Problem", I'm not sure it is a problem. The decks that play him generally either have won before you've had a chance to get the milling-extracting engine going, or can't win in time even if they get a library-reset from him. They'll only get one, in most cases.
Snuff Out seems better than Ghastly Demise or Smother in most situations, especially with a lot of decks running Thalia. Paying 4 life to kill a Tarmogoyf is fine as long as you're not getting hit for 6-8.
Flusterstorm is a great option against Combo, generally better than Mindbreak Trap because you're leaving plenty of mana untapped until their end of turn and they have a much harder time fighting it with Force of Will or Spell Pierce.
Undiscovered Paradise could be cool? Repeatedly activating Hedron Crabs could give you that extra little bit of reach, and the deck isn't exactly mana hungry.
I'm thinking Snapcaster Mage might be good in the same way that Dream Twist is good, as it lets you get a desired effect despite the existence of Duress effects and/or countermagic, and it's a blocker which is relevant...a lot.
As to the "Emrakul Problem", I'm not sure it is a problem. The decks that play him generally either have won before you've had a chance to get the milling-extracting engine going, or can't win in time even if they get a library-reset from him. They'll only get one, in most cases.
Snuff Out - Seems way too dangerous. Sure, it gets Goyf and only costs 1 with Thalia out, but the life loss is WAY too relevant in any aggro matchup anyways. Ghastly Demise can take out Thalia 100% of the time for 2 mana, which I'll take over 1 mana + -4 Life.
Flusterstorm - Totally forgot about this card. I'll have to do more testing to see if the Storm MU deserves a set.
Undiscovered Paradise - Very interesting. Great if Hedron Crab sticks, and can stop you from losing steam in that way. On the other hand, without a crab online this gets pretty lackluster. Worth testing for sure.
Snapcaster Mage - I think he could work well in a more mid-range strategy Mill deck. Pure speed is not his game, and I think he's too slow in a traditional All-In Mill Deck. I do have to admit, however, that All-In Mill might not be the way to go, and he could end up being an MVP.
I'm really curious to try Brain Freeze out. It seems great against a bunch of decks that play multiple spells each turn, especially Elves and the like. Even if the deck you're playing against doesn't play that many spells, it can still be a heavy play. After just two spells it's comparable to Glimpse the Unthinkable with instant speed, and after three it's better. Definitely gonna try this one out.
Wheel of Sun and Moon - I thought this card would single handedly end any chance this deck had, but I've been pleasantly surprised with how little it's worked. I think it stems from the fact that the decks I've seen it in have tended to search for it with Enlightened Tutor, so it goes on the top of the library - prime location for an instant speed mill (Thought Scour works perfectly).
Submerge - After realizing how easy it is to kill the top card of the library, I decided to try Submerge out. Seems pretty solid, as you return a Goyf for free, mill it for 1, then Extirpate or Extract it for 1. This goes for pretty much any problem creature. Very synergistic defense card, methinks.
A U/B build lends itself best to a Mill archetype. Glimpse the Unthinkable is a house, and perhaps the most instrumental cards in building a viable Mill deck (Extirpate + Surgical Extraction) require the black mana. While dual colors can lead to Wasteland weaknesses, fetches are needed to get Hedron Crab up and running anyways.
4 Hedron Crab
4 Snapcaster Mage
Mill Spells:
4 Extirpate
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Tomb Scour
4 Dream Twist
4 Memory Sluice
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Archive Trap
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Blue Fetch
3 Black Fetch
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
This is what I've thrown together. I feel like it can be incredibly brutal, especially with 8 Extirpate effects. Dredge and (to a certain extent) Reanimator, conventionally huge hurdles for Mill decks, can be dealt with by removing their threats. In fact, it works with most one-dimensional decks, including Sneak + Tell. While you have to bank on an early Emrakul in the GY to Extirpate, you can strip them of their threats rather easily (however, I have not had the time to actually test these MUs, and they are basically just intuition). The deck basically functions as a burn/control collab.
From what I can see, Aggro seems to be the biggest problem as their threats are diverse and Extirpate is weakened. To address this, the sideboard could feature create destruction spells (a-la black) to stall while you mill away (hopefully) some of their threats.
With regards to card choice, I simply don't know every Mill card, but I feel like I've hit most of them. Brainfreeze seems like interesting tech against Storm combo in the board. Thought Scour could help address the CA issue (although Snapcaster may nullify this problem enough) as well as Street Wraith. Force of Will simply seems necessary in any blue deck, but perhaps the inherent CA is too much. Daze seems perfect as it synergizes with Hedron Crab.
I dunno, this may be an unrealistic dream, but it seems decently possible. With that, I'll open the floor. Thoughts?
NO Elves
Top 8 SCG: LA 2011
Mill, however, can win the game by just surviving long enough. Every turn 1/60th of your opponent's lifeforce, which is their library in this case, gets taken out. Cards like Tome Scour (Which you have up as Tomb Scour btw xD), Dream Twist and Memory Sluice don't quite hit the 8.6 card margin. Instead, I feel that you'll be able to mill a lot of cards with {Haunting Echoes}, removing win conditions along the way, while also damaging the graveyard. The other cards I think should be lands to fuel Hedron Crab, and also Haunting Echoes if you decide to run it. Moat or Moat + Humility is a great way to not get killed while milling. So is Ensnaring Bridge.
I just don't think this deck will do well against heavy early aggression, like from Goblins, or against combo unless you can land plenty of countermagic. Brainstorm with fetches allows you to continue running the low land count, as well as search for countermagic. Extirpate and Surgical will help a lot against combo if you can survive the initial wave, but you'll still need to land some stuff before they combo off with other cards.
Lastly, Street Wraith does not provide CA because it is a 1 for 1 trade. This goes for all cantrips, as well. I don't think this deck needs CA, though, because you'll be tapping out almost every turn with the low land count.
White = Preservation of life
Black = Death
Red = Destruction
Blue = ...Wizards?
If your opponent starts out the game with 53 cards in their library, by 5th turn they will only have 48-49 cards left (if they haven't drawn extra). That means you would need to mill them for 7 cards 7 times, or for 6 cards 8 times, etc. If there were more Mind Sculpt type cards you could have more of a burn style mill deck, but there aren't enough cheap high mill cards. Burn has 4 solid 1 cost 3 damage cards. Blue would need the equivalent of 4 useable 1 cost 8 mill cards to have a chance at mill racing.
You are not going to outrace most decks so you need some board control. First of all I think you really need to put in a least a bit of creature kill. 3 or 4 Terror type kills and 2-3 sweepers like Damnation or Infest.
Second the whole reason I was playing UB mill was that Black has creature kill but also has a couple of awesome mill cards. Glimpse the Unthinkable you already have but two very strong mill cards are Mind Funeral and Haunting Echoes. Both of these are a bit slow but pack much more punch.
If you have some board control it should slow them down a bit so you can play some bombs. Mind Funeral gets at least four cards, but I find it usually gets 6-12 which is pretty good for the cost. You could try one or two and side in more if they are playing a deck with few lands. Also the rampant land fetching in Legacy might make this a bit more potent. Could add 2-3 of these.
Haunting Echoes is a game ender. Yes it costs 5 but if you have milled 15+ of their cards and you play this baby it usually leaves them a deck with land and little else. Many times upon playing this my opponents just scoop rather than going through the agony of exiling 20+ cards from their deck. I would put in at least 2 of these
A bit of targeted discard would also help slow them down and keep early threats from getting too big. Mill offers no board control or protection unlike burn so I would probably include 3-4 of a one cost discards like Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress, Despise, etc.
To make room for this other stuff I recommend getting rid of the Memory Sluice, because I think it is the weakest mill card, or do 2 Tome Scour and 2 Memory Sluice. Also maybe do 2 Extirpate and 2 Surgical Extraction. Those effects help you in the long run but don't deal with immediate threats so you don't want a whole hand full of them.
-2 Memory Sluice
-2 Tome Scour
-2 Extirpate
-2 Surgical Extraction
-1 Archive Trap
-2 Dream Twist (bad synergy with Snapcaster)
+2 Haunting Echoes
+2 Damnation
+3 Doomblade / Go for the Throat
+3 Inquisition of Kozilek / Duress
You might need to add a couple more lands also. Especially since you have no draw or deck manipulation. You will have to figure out how to do that.
*Edit added comment about Dream Twist
While a mid-range strategy could be very interesting, this deck can still be extremely quick. This is a goldfish I got earlier today. Let's say you're on the play:
T1: Island, Hedron Crab (Opp:52)
T2: Hedron Crab, Fetch, Underground Sea, Tome Scour (Opp: 34)
T3: Fetch, Island, Glimpse the Unthinkable, Tome Scour (Opp: 6)
T4: Land (Opp: 0)
Seems like a pretty consistent Turn 4-5 kill from what I've goldfished, and that's without Archive Trap as well. Again, that's ignoring disruption and Emrakul-like problems.
The other thing I just realized is that Wheel of Sun and Moon (which seems to be a pretty relevant card in the meta nowadays) is a hose against this deck. It's like Null Rod against Affinity. With UB it seems like countering+Extirpate is really the only thing you can do. Any way (besides bouncing) this deck could potentially address a resolved Wheel?
NO Elves
Top 8 SCG: LA 2011
I am impressed that your deck is getting such consistent goldfishing. I made a similar mono blue Howling Mine mill deck (with Hedron Crab) that did not work out quite that well. The first game people may laugh when you play Hedron Crab, but the second game the will unload on that poor little 0/2, so the strategy might not work so smoothly, of course.
If you are happy with its speed that is good. After some real playtesting you can see if that configuration works. I really think that 8 Extirpate effects is too much. The problem with it is the same problem mill has in general, it gets you closer to victory but does nothing to improve your board position. Also I feel like a game where you don't get the crab or they take it out you will run out of gas really fast. The scenario you describe with them taking out your crab turn two, plus you playing a couple Extirpate effects leaves you nearly empty handed and no way to deal with their threats, which are usually pretty mean in legacy. Then you are sunk and they have 30-40 cards left.
If you don't want to add the midrange stuff at least consider putting in 2-3 spot kill spells and 3-5 cheap discard spells to slow them down a bit and give you a chance if things don't break your way.
8 Extirpates may be a bit much, and I may move 4 or so to the Sideboard. I think they need to be in there somewhere, simply because you NEED them to beat Emrakul. Discard could work as well, I'll have to look into reshaping this deck a bit more.
I'm not even sure Mill is viable in Legacy. If it weren't for Emrakul, GY, and anti-mill cards intended to hurt other more T1-1.5 decks, I think it could be. At this point, it's just a fun little project of mine, but I think there might still be some hidden potential there.
NO Elves
Top 8 SCG: LA 2011
Also, and this is very important, use Brainstorm and Ponder to prevent the deck from running out of steam. And possibly Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy. By replacing some of the less effective mill cards with these you get a streamlined deck too. Don't bother with Force of Will for now, until you have the basics down. Basics such as - is it viable at all? What is the land supply like? What are the best spells?
Just wish to point out a few things here:
I realised a Leyline of Sanctity could stop our deck cold. But then again Blue is the color of bounce so it shouldn't be too much of a hassle. Chain of Vapor in the sideboard?
I would try to add in Devastion Tide, as in Mill decks we frequently need a reset button - especially in aggro matchups. I used to run Evacuation back then, but I think Tide is better even though it is a sorcery. Thought Scour and Devastation Tide works very well too, you can try to activate it on your opponent turn via Thought Scour's cantrip. I could see Thought Scour taking the place of Tome Scour or Memory Sluice to start with.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
The running out of steam problem can be easily solved with 4 Visions of Beyond. In Mill, this cards reads "Pay U, Draw Three cards." i.e. Ancestral Recall. It has quickly become a Mill-Core card IMO.
Throwing in a wall might seem like a laughable idea. However unlike a one-hit target kill, it can be a recurring defensive stopper. Fog Bank fits this bill perfectly. If you play a wall, you now have enough creatures to make Memory Sluice a viable 8 cards for (U/B) option.
I'm wondering which is better - Ancestral Vision or Vision of Beyond? I think Vision of Beyond gets my tilt here since Ancestral Vision is only better if we draw it on the opening two turns or so.
Vision of Beyond on opponent turn could also turn Devastation Tide's Miracle effect on. Then again whether Tide is the topdeck is another story.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
4 Ponder
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Archive Trap
4 Dream Twist
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Hedron Crab
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Extirpate
I like the idea of having just the four crabs for creatures. It reduces the effectiveness of opposing removal. A deck like this that is entirely stack dependent and yet not likely to roll over to counterspells has some potential. The fact that it is probably 2 turns slower than typical combo could be a problem though. It has to either get faster or have some excellent defensive ability in those remaining cards.
Looks pretty good. I can't help but think that with Visions of Beyond (crazy good card by the way, never seen it before) that 8+12 cantrips are a bit overkill. The 8 extirpates (while I still love that idea) may prove to be overkill as well. And with regards to Gitaxian Probe, does Thought Scour not do its job better? We can't really do anything about the cards in their hand anyways. How about something like:
-3 Gitaxian Probe
+3 Thought Scour
-4 Ponder
+4 Tome Scour
And if Ponder proves too good to cut, I think Tome Scour > Dream Twist. Sure, flashback is nice, but your essentially paying 2 more mana for 1 more mill. Doesn't add up.
I agree that Hedron Crab is our only creature. Snapcaster Mage is too slow to be effective. In decks like RUG, he can bring answers back. This deck doesn't really have answers.
Off the top of my head, Daze seems like the most synergistic defense card to me. It can be played around, sure, but it works well to keep feeding Hedron Crab and lets you keep tapping out. Just a thought.
Also, as a side note (and sideboard note), Brain Freeze is some really interesting anti-storm tech. (Note: They do tend to silence you before going off, so maybe it's trash.) Tormod's Crypt still seems necessary for Emrakul and the like. I'll have to test a list like this out a bit to get a feel for the speed. Mid-range could still be a possibility, but it just doesn't seem right to me.
NO Elves
Top 8 SCG: LA 2011
I also agree that if you are not putting in any creature kill or discard that Snapcaster Mage is less useful. But I really think that adding maybe 3 creature kill and 3-4 discard spells and keeping the Snapcasters would be much more effective. Snapcaster Mage actually does generate some card advantage and lets you reuse your mill spells, draw spells, kill and discard.
I am unsure about Visions of Beyond. When it works its incredible, but you don't want dead cards in your opening hand. I might only run three. Also I think that Mind Sculpt may actually be pretty decent, it mills 7 for 2, which is similar to Tome Scour (5 for 1) and better than Dream Twist (3 for 6).
I am not a very big fan of walls unless they have a specific helpful ability, I would rather be proactive and strip the creatures from their hand our kill them outright. Depending on your manabase you might also consider Hymn to Tourach or Wrench Mind. These give your opponent negative card advantage and power up your Visions a bit faster. If you can get your opponent top decking then you are in a really strong position.
I propose something more like this:
4 Hedron Crab
4 Snapcaster Mage
Mill Spells:
4 Archive Trap
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Tome Scour
3 Mind Sculpt
2 Dream Twist
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
1 Damnation
3 Despise
3 Visions of Beyond
3 Brainstorm
For the sideboard, maybe some Spell Pierce, Tormod's Crypt, couple more Damnation for creature heavy decks, an extra creature kill or two and some meta help.
4 Hedron Crab
4 Snapcaster Mage
Mill Spells [17]
4 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thought Scour
2 Dream Twist
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Archive Trap
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Devastation Tide
4 Visions of Beyond
Lands [19]
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
My mates is gonna laugh at my using of Polluted Delta and Underground Sea (especially I had a hard time getting a set of NM Underground Sea recently) for a mill deck, wait till I mill them FTW!!!:D
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
That looks like a pretty strong list to me! My only advice is that Dream Twist and Thought Scour are pretty weak mill cards, I would rather play Tome Scour or Mind Sculpt, they just have a lot more bang for the buck and are really solid when flashed back with Snapcaster.
4 Devastation Tide seems excessive. It might be worth throwing in a couple Gitaxian Probe into this deck. I think this card has really good synergy with the Extirpate effects. You look at their hand, and if there are any cards in their graveyard same as in their hand you can Extirpate that. Their hand goes down one you draw a card.
Visions of Beyond is hampered a bit by all the exiling of graveyard cards, plus it does not play well with Devastation Tide, so I would probably only run three.
I still would like to advocate putting in a couple discard or creature kill. 3 Ostracize, for example, gets that early threat out of their hand and into the graveyard before they can play it. It also lets you Extirpate their best creature early in the game, plus as stated above in the Gitaxian Probe example, you get to see their hand. When you look a their hand and see they have 2 Kird Ape and you just milled one, you Extirpate that and they are basically finished.
1. Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are amazing. I fully endorse running a set of each. For a while I thought they were just plugging up my hands, but I realized that those are the cards that are going to make this deck competitive. Mill is not particularly fast. It does alright, but it simply can't keep up in Legacy. These two cards set up a different strategy - mill some cards, then exile your opponents key cards. I've had a few matches against Combo Elves, and every game Extirpate/Surgical Extraction left their library a hollow shell of a deck. No Glimpses, no Druids, etc., etc. This actually starts to make me think that the primary strategy of this deck shouldn't necessarily be to Mill ASAP, but make your opponent move like molasses.
2. Mind Funeral blows. I said it. It is way too unreliable to get the job done.
3. Force of Will is too much CDA. This deck loses steam quickly, and will often find itself in top-deck mode. FOW is usually uncastable. That being said, it may actually find itself a SB spot for combo.
4. Visions of Beyond is a MUST 4-of. Mill needs the CA it provides, and it's fairly rare you run out of steam before the 20-mill mark. If you do, you've lost already. Just wait until you chain Visions into a Glimpse for the win, and you will flat fall in love with it.
5. Daze is a great defensive card. It stops some of the early drops that can harm us big time (Delver of Secrets, Targmogoyf) from hitting the field. If that wasn't enough, it can often give you another landfall for Hedron Crab.
6. Tarmogoyf is a HUGE problem. I've had T2 and T3 6/7 to 7/8 Goyfs running around, and we can't race that. We need to have a card that can stop this guy. Tormod's Crypt has actually done a pretty good job with this I must say.
7. I've been trying to find a cheap way of killing off problem creatures, because they exist all over the place. At first I tried Dismember because it can be pretty cheap, but found that it kills your life AND can't hit most Goyfs. Not good. I've since moved on to what I think is a pretty good answer. Ghastly Demise. You will rack up some graveyard cards pretty early with your cheap spells and fetches, so killing most creatures isn't a problem. It still doesn't usually hit Goyf, but Tormod's Crypt has solved that problem a few times now.
The decklist I'm currently running has been doing pretty well, although I'm absolutely replacing Mind Funeral. So far I've been winning most of the matches on the back of Extirpate and, surprisingly Thought Scour. I do, however, have yet to go up against Emrakul. We'll see how that goes when I come to it. Here's the list:
4 Hedron Crab
Mill Spells:
4 Archive Trap
4 Extirpate
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Thought Scour
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Tome Scour
2 Mind Funeral (Soon to be replaced)
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Daze
3 Ghastly Demise
Land:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Blue Fetch
3 Black Fetch
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Force of Will
3 Submerge
2 Damnation
The sideboard is more than open for change, but Tormod's Crypt is a must. Blue Elemental Blast was in there for Goblins and to an extent burn, but who knows. Force of Will is perhaps the strangest there, and I haven't played enough against combo to know if it's worth it. Well, those are my thoughts. I'm actually getting pretty interested in a more Mid-Range strategy focusing on the Extirpate Effects. All I know is Mill very well could be competitive if we keep hammering away at it.
NO Elves
Top 8 SCG: LA 2011
NO Elves
Top 8 SCG: LA 2011
I admit Devastation Tide might be excessive, I had this thought of playing 4 of them partly because of some of the games I witness lately with the Counterbalance decks running Terminus and Entreat the Angels. I realised that deck actually almost win the game everytime it managed to resolve at least 1x Terminus, thus I felt for our Mill deck to successfully get the job done, resolving a Devastation Tide is essential to that happening.
I also agree Dream Twist and Thought Scour are pretty underwhelming, but I can't really see Tome Scour or Mind Sculpt as really good either, my meta is very U dominated, with plenty of decks playing 4x Spell Pierce. Dream Twist is useful against these decks, while Thought Scour has another function in helping to trigger the Miracle effect in Devastation Tide. Same for Vision of Beyond.
Definitely need to finetune some of the cards in the list as you pointed out. Gitaxian Probe is also something I'm looking at.
@copenhagen1221
Problem with Mind Funeral is the random and inconsistent way the card mills. Then again, most legacy decks runs on average of 20 lands (including fetches so by the time Mind Funeral lands they should have even fewer lands in their library), so it should be able to hit many cards but it's erratic nature makes it difficult for us to "schedule" our mill spells or plan our sequence properly.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
That is exciting that the deck is working and fun. Having some playtesting feedback is great thanks for sharing.
-My favorite Tarmogoyf killer is Smother.
-If you say that the Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are really working, then I will jump on board with 4 each.
-Mind Funeral is a bit slow for Legacy I suppose. I am going to continue advocating some cheap discard, especially if it lets you look at their hand (Thoughtseize, Duress, Ostracize, Inquisition of Kozilek). If you know whats in their hand then your Extirpates and Surgical Extractions can double as discard, by exiling things in their graveyard right out of their hand as well. Might also try 2 Haunting Echoes, a little slow but devestating.
-Against combo, if Force of Will isn't working for you I have always liked Mindbreak Trap.
I think targeted discard is worth looking into. Getting a look at their hand can be big and coupling a T1 discard with T1 Surgical Extraction could stop a one-dimensional deck in its tracks.
NO Elves
Top 8 SCG: LA 2011
Flusterstorm is a great option against Combo, generally better than Mindbreak Trap because you're leaving plenty of mana untapped until their end of turn and they have a much harder time fighting it with Force of Will or Spell Pierce.
Undiscovered Paradise could be cool? Repeatedly activating Hedron Crabs could give you that extra little bit of reach, and the deck isn't exactly mana hungry.
I'm thinking Snapcaster Mage might be good in the same way that Dream Twist is good, as it lets you get a desired effect despite the existence of Duress effects and/or countermagic, and it's a blocker which is relevant...a lot.
As to the "Emrakul Problem", I'm not sure it is a problem. The decks that play him generally either have won before you've had a chance to get the milling-extracting engine going, or can't win in time even if they get a library-reset from him. They'll only get one, in most cases.
Snuff Out - Seems way too dangerous. Sure, it gets Goyf and only costs 1 with Thalia out, but the life loss is WAY too relevant in any aggro matchup anyways. Ghastly Demise can take out Thalia 100% of the time for 2 mana, which I'll take over 1 mana + -4 Life.
Flusterstorm - Totally forgot about this card. I'll have to do more testing to see if the Storm MU deserves a set.
Undiscovered Paradise - Very interesting. Great if Hedron Crab sticks, and can stop you from losing steam in that way. On the other hand, without a crab online this gets pretty lackluster. Worth testing for sure.
Snapcaster Mage - I think he could work well in a more mid-range strategy Mill deck. Pure speed is not his game, and I think he's too slow in a traditional All-In Mill Deck. I do have to admit, however, that All-In Mill might not be the way to go, and he could end up being an MVP.
I'm really curious to try Brain Freeze out. It seems great against a bunch of decks that play multiple spells each turn, especially Elves and the like. Even if the deck you're playing against doesn't play that many spells, it can still be a heavy play. After just two spells it's comparable to Glimpse the Unthinkable with instant speed, and after three it's better. Definitely gonna try this one out.
NO Elves
Top 8 SCG: LA 2011
Submerge - After realizing how easy it is to kill the top card of the library, I decided to try Submerge out. Seems pretty solid, as you return a Goyf for free, mill it for 1, then Extirpate or Extract it for 1. This goes for pretty much any problem creature. Very synergistic defense card, methinks.
NO Elves
Top 8 SCG: LA 2011