Hi everyone, I've been trying to put together the ideal tokens list, and would like some suggestions, and hopefully some constructive discussions, thanks all!!
Any suggestions are welcome, but if you recommend a different card please also suggest what that card should be replacing and also give the reason why it would have a positive effect on the synergy of the deck as a whole.
I know you said mono white, but I'd still consider looking through the thread here for ideas: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=454721
adding black adds in lingering souls, which is arguably one of the best token producing cards.also gives discard and more diverse creature removal in sideboard.
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Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
Second that. Lingering Souls is really freaking good. If you're insistent on mono-white though, I think you at least need to go up to 4x Stoneforge Mystic. Ajani really isn't good enough to make the cut. Start by directly swapping your Ajanis for to mroe stoneforge mystics.
I feel I would also cut land tax from your current build. I don't think it does enough for you especially when I can't see this deck missing land drops, least of all choosing to miss land drops.
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I do really like the black for lingering souls, and maybe sorin, lord of innistrad, but I just wasn't sure if the $$ spent on getting duals/fetches/filter lands was worth a bit more card advantage through lingering souls, because I also thought that Elspeth, knight-errant could do as a replacement for sorin, lord of innistrad.
I didn't really care too much for the discard that black offers, but I did like the additional removal through go for the throat/doom blade, or the money removal vindicate (that I don't have and I don't really want to spend the $$ to get them). The reason why I didn't think too much about the discard is because I think I'd rather play the aggressive route and just try to overwhelm my opponent with tokens, and if they get out of hand I could just wipe the board with hour of reckoning.
I really like Land Tax in this deck, I use it not so much to hit land drops, but more so to thin out my deck especially because I don't have any fetches that can assist me in that, but I do hate it when I draw into a second one towards the end of the game. If anything maybe I can cut one for something else.
I do really like the black for lingering souls, and maybe sorin, lord of innistrad, but I just wasn't sure if the $$ spent on getting duals/fetches/filter lands was worth a bit more card advantage through lingering souls, because I also thought that Elspeth, knight-errant could do as a replacement for sorin, lord of innistrad.
I didn't really care too much for the discard that black offers, but I did like the additional removal through go for the throat/doom blade, or the money removal vindicate (that I don't have and I don't really want to spend the $$ to get them). The reason why I didn't think too much about the discard is because I think I'd rather play the aggressive route and just try to overwhelm my opponent with tokens, and if they get out of hand I could just wipe the board with hour of reckoning.
I really like Land Tax in this deck, I use it not so much to hit land drops, but more so to thin out my deck especially because I don't have any fetches that can assist me in that, but I do hate it when I draw into a second one towards the end of the game. If anything maybe I can cut one for something else.
It seems like you take discard spells too lightly. You should also run a full set of stoneforge and equips because that is basically a huge win for tokens. Land tax doesnt make sense to me, because deck thinning is basically negligible and those spots would be better for thoughtseize/ cabal therapy etc.
It seems like you take discard spells too lightly. You should also run a full set of stoneforge and equips because that is basically a huge win for tokens. Land tax doesnt make sense to me, because deck thinning is basically negligible and those spots would be better for thoughtseize/ cabal therapy etc.
Black does offer bitterblossom, which is the primary reason I would run it, and I guess lingering souls isn't bad here, either.
As far as land tax thinning goes, there is a world of difference between removing 3 per turn and 1 per turn. It is enough of a difference that it used to be paired with scroll rack for a new hand every turn.
On your list itself, shrine of loyal legions doesn't really add anything to it. yes, it does offer a critical mass of tokens later in the game. On the other hand, so does a single spectral procession. I would cut all 4 and instead add 3 more enlightened tutors, which gives you a control/answer package you can main, including cards such as rest in peace in the sideboard (or main, depending on your intentions) or things like suppression field, which completely hoses dominating strategies that hurt yours such as BUG control (pernicious deed and engineered explosives are NOT your friends!).
It also goes well with your maindeck humility, which between that and the tokens, and a land tax activation, might actually give you a better than even chance against show and tell->emrakul, the aeons torn.
I agree land tax is good, and being able to use it once is great. My point was that I don't expect you to activate it more then once. That us why it is bad in your deck to me. Perhaps if you go a parfait route with tokens as your win con that could work. That you should have tools to control the tax and thus get some use of it.
The short answer again; you need to hit land drops. Land tax can't get lands for you when you can't afford to miss land drops.
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You don't really need much. Playing 20 to 22 lands, running path to exile over swords to plowshares, and three land tax should be more than enough to make it activate at least twice, and twice is PLENTY and very statistically relevant to the point of making your draws potentially better.
@treeshrew
You're probably right, that I am underestimating the power of discard, I just see this deck as a very aggro based deck, and with discard I worry that it'll dilute how overwhelming tokens can and will be. What I do understand about discard is that many times, it'll be one of the only answers to getting rid of a pesky card that an opponent might have at had that will totally wreck us, like echoing truth or an in hand engineered explosive or pernicious deed, or a valid combo piece, etc. But at the same time, aren't there white answers that could be side boarded for those specific situations? Maybe not a resolved EE, but that's why we should always hold some gas right?
I do sort of want to possibly try to work 4 stoneforge mystic into the deck, but I feel that 2 is okay if I get an enlightened tutor.
As for land tax, I don't think deck thinning is negligible, with all the basic lands I run, being able to activate the ability once each turn increases my top decking significantly, which I feel can happen pretty quickly, and it sucks to top deck a land or 2, 2 turns in a row.
Like I do understand that the discard is good, but I don't feel like it's good enough to dump that much $$ in dual lands, if a mono white list one can still be successful.
@weltkrieg
Oh yeah, bitterblossom is another card that I liked if I were to add black, but due to the fact that I don't really like discard, I feel like I'd just be adding black for bitterblossom, lingering souls, and maybe a Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, which to me seems like sort of a splash of black (but quite a good splash). After I came to that conclusion, it made me think that maybe, just MAYBE, there's a way that I could keep this list mono white, save me money on duals (which is the main reason for me wanting to try to stay in mono white :P) and still remain as competitive as the B/W version.
On to Land tax, Scrollrack is an interesting card, makes me think of a not-so-invincible top on steroids haha, although it is a little out of my price range, I don't think I'll be picking one up, but thanks, it does deserve an honorable mention.
You're absolutely right about shrine of loyal legions, I only liked getting it in the beginning of the game, and I hate getting it late game, it does pose a threat if dropped early, but always makes me weary of always keeping 3 mana untapped to "release the horde" which caused my play to be somewhat haltered. Maybe I shall add 3 more enlightened tutors, it just costs like an arm to get them. I do like to be able to run those 1 of answers that you mentioned, soooo.. highly considering. Thanks!!
@WeaponX
I see what you're saying, but after playing this deck list for some time, I've realized that I don't really need all that much land for this deck to do what it does. Many games, I feel comfortable when I have 3-4 lands in play, and that's when I just hold lands in my hand and wait for my opponent to play a higher land count than me (so I can activate) and I match him, therefore allowing me to activate it practically every turn, and I've been having top deck galore. haha
@weltkrieg
WOW, I totally forgot about path to exile, that is definitely something I must try out to see if giving them an extra land really does affect the game play positively overall.
@ALL
Thanks guys for all your comments, I really appreciate all the constructive advice you all have contributed. I hope you all had a wonderful Christmas, and I hope you all have a great New years!!
btw I have updated the deck list up top. I sort of feel like I need a couple more token generators.
@purple_flurp You don't necesarrily have to buy duals. You could by the shocklands when they come out. SCG has them preorder for 12.50 so you could probably ebay them from somewhere $8-10 a piece. Marsh flats isn't too expensive either. Also, you could get isolated chapel, fetid heath, or caves of koilos as another substitute in the meanwhile. Discard is great. Sure, you might slow down the token swarm but you're also slowing down your opponent too. Playing a turn 1 inquisition of kozilek followed by cabal therapy is great since you just saw/know their hand.
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Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
@trevaftw
I know there's plenty of other cheaper dual lands that I could purchase and use as alternatives, but those purchased are all in addition to a set of bitterblossom, a set of cabal therapy, set of IoK, and maybe a couple of Sorin, which in all practically doubles the cost of how much I need to buy.
Having all those dual lands also dilutes the effectiveness of land tax, I'm not sure where you stand in terms of that card in this deck, but I like it, and find it quite useful.
Would replacing 2 Ajani Goldmane for 2 battle screech be a good replacement? Are there any other mono white cards that I should consider making room for?
Would replacing 2 Ajani Goldmane for 2 battle screech be a good replacement? Are there any other mono white cards that I should consider making room for?
Personnally I would only run 2 planeswalkers (the elspeth you have listed) and 2 hour of reckoning. Anymore of either those and you will just be disappointed whenever you top deck your second, 3rd, etc. I'd also cut stoneforge and batterskull. Add in more token producers like gather the townsfolk and lingering souls. You really should at the least buy 4x cave of koilos so you can run lingeringing souls.
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Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
Personnally I would only run 2 planeswalkers (the elspeth you have listed) and 2 hour of reckoning. Anymore of either those and you will just be disappointed whenever you top deck your second, 3rd, etc. I'd also cut stoneforge and batterskull. Add in more token producers like gather the townsfolk and lingering souls. You really should at the least buy 4x cave of koilos so you can run lingeringing souls.
Okay thanks, I'll try that out, I do actually happen to have a set of cave of koilos, so I think I'll try it.
So I have made changes to my main board, and I like it quite a lot, my next question is are there any other utility cards that I could run in my sideboard?
Your grave hate is pretty silly. Just run 4 RIP. You need more SFM too. You don't want to be hard casting Batterskull.
Finally, it's almost impossible to play mono white and be Competetive because you can't beat any combo deck like this. You need discard, that's just the way it is. There doesn't exist a noncombo deck that's any good and packs no disruption for a reason.
If you're going to insist on running mono-white, you'll want to sideboard 4x Silence, Orim's Chant, or Mindbreak trap against combo. It's better than nothing.
Edit: In Addition to some Thalias, if you aren't running them mainboard.
Thalia would be a bad idea in a deck that plans on playing spells to produce and pump creature tokens. I agree the combo hate in the board is a good idea, however.
Yes, but consider this. You're not running any mana accleration of your own, you drop a thalia down, and now your best token producing spells are cmc 3 and 4 (raise the alarm/souls/procession). Somehow, I think if you haven't applied much pressure by then (with thalia your t2 drop, for instance), you're still not going to win. Thalia slows them down, and giving them a couple of turns to find an answer isn't going to do much to your game plan. If you keep it mono white, a silence on their upkeep or in response to their last ritual will probably do a ton more to enable you to produce the pressure you need to produce to actually win it. Otherwise, a black splash for discard will, in this deck, be many times stronger than taxing everything.
Thalia probably isn't the best here, but you must run some disruption or you belong in a casual thread frankly. Play BW. Orzzy is a great color combo. Liliana and Cabal Therapy and Jitte play great with tokens. And you get Bitterossom and Zealous Persecution. Check out a BW StoneBlade deck for ideas.
Play black, that way you get open yourselves into discard spells like Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek and Duress, and if you play something like Westvale abby you can run 1-3 dark rituals as ramp spells. And if you go that way then you can eventually cut Down on either elspeths or Sorins for Liliana of the veils, then you add 1-4 Ensearing Bridge to the main Board. Because they are alot better then Ghostly Prison.
And Thalia
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Artifacts/Enchantments
4x intangible virtue
3x land tax
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Humility
1x Oblivion Ring
Planeswalkers
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Instants/Sorceries
4x midnight haunting
4x spectral procession
4x raise the alarm
4x sword to plowshares
3x hour of reckoning
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Lingering Souls
Lands
11x plains
4x windbrisk heights
4x Caves of Koilos
1x swamp
Sideboard (under construction, suggestions appreciated)
1x suppression field
4x tormod's crypt
2x rest in peace
2x ghostly prision
2x oblivion ring
1x Humility
3x disenchant
Any suggestions are welcome, but if you recommend a different card please also suggest what that card should be replacing and also give the reason why it would have a positive effect on the synergy of the deck as a whole.
Thanks Everyone!!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=454721
adding black adds in lingering souls, which is arguably one of the best token producing cards.also gives discard and more diverse creature removal in sideboard.
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
I feel I would also cut land tax from your current build. I don't think it does enough for you especially when I can't see this deck missing land drops, least of all choosing to miss land drops.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I didn't really care too much for the discard that black offers, but I did like the additional removal through go for the throat/doom blade, or the money removal vindicate (that I don't have and I don't really want to spend the $$ to get them). The reason why I didn't think too much about the discard is because I think I'd rather play the aggressive route and just try to overwhelm my opponent with tokens, and if they get out of hand I could just wipe the board with hour of reckoning.
I really like Land Tax in this deck, I use it not so much to hit land drops, but more so to thin out my deck especially because I don't have any fetches that can assist me in that, but I do hate it when I draw into a second one towards the end of the game. If anything maybe I can cut one for something else.
It seems like you take discard spells too lightly. You should also run a full set of stoneforge and equips because that is basically a huge win for tokens. Land tax doesnt make sense to me, because deck thinning is basically negligible and those spots would be better for thoughtseize/ cabal therapy etc.
Legacy:
GBW Hipster Elves GBW
EDH (Just for fun):
W Kemba, Lord of Kittens W
Black does offer bitterblossom, which is the primary reason I would run it, and I guess lingering souls isn't bad here, either.
As far as land tax thinning goes, there is a world of difference between removing 3 per turn and 1 per turn. It is enough of a difference that it used to be paired with scroll rack for a new hand every turn.
On your list itself, shrine of loyal legions doesn't really add anything to it. yes, it does offer a critical mass of tokens later in the game. On the other hand, so does a single spectral procession. I would cut all 4 and instead add 3 more enlightened tutors, which gives you a control/answer package you can main, including cards such as rest in peace in the sideboard (or main, depending on your intentions) or things like suppression field, which completely hoses dominating strategies that hurt yours such as BUG control (pernicious deed and engineered explosives are NOT your friends!).
It also goes well with your maindeck humility, which between that and the tokens, and a land tax activation, might actually give you a better than even chance against show and tell->emrakul, the aeons torn.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
The short answer again; you need to hit land drops. Land tax can't get lands for you when you can't afford to miss land drops.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
You're probably right, that I am underestimating the power of discard, I just see this deck as a very aggro based deck, and with discard I worry that it'll dilute how overwhelming tokens can and will be. What I do understand about discard is that many times, it'll be one of the only answers to getting rid of a pesky card that an opponent might have at had that will totally wreck us, like echoing truth or an in hand engineered explosive or pernicious deed, or a valid combo piece, etc. But at the same time, aren't there white answers that could be side boarded for those specific situations? Maybe not a resolved EE, but that's why we should always hold some gas right?
I do sort of want to possibly try to work 4 stoneforge mystic into the deck, but I feel that 2 is okay if I get an enlightened tutor.
As for land tax, I don't think deck thinning is negligible, with all the basic lands I run, being able to activate the ability once each turn increases my top decking significantly, which I feel can happen pretty quickly, and it sucks to top deck a land or 2, 2 turns in a row.
Like I do understand that the discard is good, but I don't feel like it's good enough to dump that much $$ in dual lands, if a mono white list one can still be successful.
@weltkrieg
Oh yeah, bitterblossom is another card that I liked if I were to add black, but due to the fact that I don't really like discard, I feel like I'd just be adding black for bitterblossom, lingering souls, and maybe a Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, which to me seems like sort of a splash of black (but quite a good splash). After I came to that conclusion, it made me think that maybe, just MAYBE, there's a way that I could keep this list mono white, save me money on duals (which is the main reason for me wanting to try to stay in mono white :P) and still remain as competitive as the B/W version.
On to Land tax, Scrollrack is an interesting card, makes me think of a not-so-invincible top on steroids haha, although it is a little out of my price range, I don't think I'll be picking one up, but thanks, it does deserve an honorable mention.
You're absolutely right about shrine of loyal legions, I only liked getting it in the beginning of the game, and I hate getting it late game, it does pose a threat if dropped early, but always makes me weary of always keeping 3 mana untapped to "release the horde" which caused my play to be somewhat haltered. Maybe I shall add 3 more enlightened tutors, it just costs like an arm to get them. I do like to be able to run those 1 of answers that you mentioned, soooo.. highly considering. Thanks!!
@WeaponX
I see what you're saying, but after playing this deck list for some time, I've realized that I don't really need all that much land for this deck to do what it does. Many games, I feel comfortable when I have 3-4 lands in play, and that's when I just hold lands in my hand and wait for my opponent to play a higher land count than me (so I can activate) and I match him, therefore allowing me to activate it practically every turn, and I've been having top deck galore. haha
@weltkrieg
WOW, I totally forgot about path to exile, that is definitely something I must try out to see if giving them an extra land really does affect the game play positively overall.
@ALL
Thanks guys for all your comments, I really appreciate all the constructive advice you all have contributed. I hope you all had a wonderful Christmas, and I hope you all have a great New years!!
btw I have updated the deck list up top. I sort of feel like I need a couple more token generators.
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
I know there's plenty of other cheaper dual lands that I could purchase and use as alternatives, but those purchased are all in addition to a set of bitterblossom, a set of cabal therapy, set of IoK, and maybe a couple of Sorin, which in all practically doubles the cost of how much I need to buy.
Having all those dual lands also dilutes the effectiveness of land tax, I'm not sure where you stand in terms of that card in this deck, but I like it, and find it quite useful.
Personnally I would only run 2 planeswalkers (the elspeth you have listed) and 2 hour of reckoning. Anymore of either those and you will just be disappointed whenever you top deck your second, 3rd, etc. I'd also cut stoneforge and batterskull. Add in more token producers like gather the townsfolk and lingering souls. You really should at the least buy 4x cave of koilos so you can run lingeringing souls.
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
Okay thanks, I'll try that out, I do actually happen to have a set of cave of koilos, so I think I'll try it.
Finally, it's almost impossible to play mono white and be Competetive because you can't beat any combo deck like this. You need discard, that's just the way it is. There doesn't exist a noncombo deck that's any good and packs no disruption for a reason.
Edit: Also, use deck tags.
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lingering Souls
9 Plains
15 Cards
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Edit: In Addition to some Thalias, if you aren't running them mainboard.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Also, Here's a BW tokens thread, recently bumped
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
And Thalia