I haven't played this, but I love the idea so much I had to jump in...
Seems like whatever the combination of "Horsemen" ends up being it should provide an immediate end to the game, there shouldn't be an opportunity for them to attack, or steal the game away. So how do we do that? We need 20 points (though the more the better!) of Hasted, Evasive, and Shrouded fatty damage. Destroying any problematic permanents on the board that might prevent us from winning outright would be a definite bonus! Yes, we can mitigate their chances of stealing the game away from us by stripping away their hand (at least the relevant threats...) and locking them out of a color with Iona, all of which does alleviate the need for an entire team of shrouded attackers...but we still need haste and evasion. So what combination of fatties on the board delivers that?
Seems like Flame-Kin Zealot takes care of the Haste part.
I suppose a trio of Stormtide Leviathans with a Zealot backing them up would deliver 27 points of hasted unblockable damage.
2 Stormtides, Iona and Zealot? Is Iona necessary if you're going to strip their hand of relevant threats and attack for lethal this turn?
We need a creature that shrouds all our other creatures just to be greedy!
Also, I'm correct in thinking that Emrakul is technically not one of the Horsemen, right? He can never actually get Dread Return'd to the battlefield, right? Or am I an idiot and overlooking something?
Sounds like 2 Emrakul or 1 Emrakul and 1 Kozilek might be needed to prevent the graveyard hate situations described above from wrecking the gameplan. Both maindeck? Or maybe one in the SB when the GY hate comes in game 2?
Very cool thread.
EDIT: Just realized that Naz already suggested: FKZ + Kira, Great Glass Spinner + Stormtide Leviathan + Angel of Despair. Maybe toss a second Stormtide in there instead of Angel in order to bring the damage up from 18 to 21? 18 of which is shrouded/unblockable damage, and the other 3 is shrouded/flying. Plus FKZ's 3 damage would be 24, but it's not evasive. Still, that should get there, right...? Also, I'm realizing that in order to field all these guys you need to play the full 4 Dread Returns...I think. I need to build this already.
If you go with FKZ, Kira, Stomtide, and Angel, you can also get the fourth Narcomoeba, adding 2 points of damage. That is 2+2+8+5+1=18 + the 5 damage from FKZ making 23, without the fourth narco, it is 21 unless I'm misscounting.
Yeah there are probably a thousand different fun and creative ways to win if you have four animations. The trick is to do it with only one or two. I was wondering why not pestermite and kiki when I realized that the combo is very fragile. What we want is a situation where one animation is usually game and two always is.
I am thinking Predator Dragon and Iona. Then perhaps an added Bridge so that the dragon can be over 20 every game. Iona may not really even be necessary though. Their hand will be empty every time.
Yeah, I think you're right, Finn. Trying to cycle through the deck in order to animate 4 times is kind of brutal. Once you've got 2 or 3 of your horsemen on the board, trying to get that last one, the FKZ for instance, can be rather tedious...it always seems like you can get the FKZ or one of the remaining Dread Returns into the GY, but not both before you hit the eldrazi and have to start all over. And if you're running 2 eldrazi main (in order to preempt any graveyard disruption shenanigans) it becomes almost impossible to get that last animation to happen without hitting one of the 2 eldrazi's first. I'd like to pretend that this shouldn't be a factor, but practically speaking time really starts to become a serious issue, aka not enough time to win a match.
So, yeah, 1 or 2 animates based on their hand and board position should be sufficient. It's not a perfect lock this way, but it seems that you ought to be able to create an effective lock using a combination of therapy flashbacks and animating Iona in order to negate any of their "outs" that you weren't able to strip.
Are you upping your eldrazi count main in order to handle graveyard hate? It seems like a good insurance policy, but it does make the eventual animate process take so much longer...
I agree that 1 Bridge from Below, 1 Iona and 1 Predator Dragon make a nice package. You should have plenty of Devour fodder when the time comes in order to achieve lethal damage. If they try to hate on the Bridge (well, other than Extirpate) you can protect it by milling into your Eldrazi. Seems sound, I think.
If you go with FKZ, Kira, Stomtide, and Angel, you can also get the fourth Narcomoeba, adding 2 points of damage. That is 2+2+8+5+1=18 + the 5 damage from FKZ making 23, without the fourth narco, it is 21 unless I'm misscounting.
Don't forget that Stormtide prevents you from attacking with FKZ since it's not flying...so with the Kira, Stormtide, Angel and 4th Narco it comes out to 20 damage.
Maybe Teferi, mage of zhalfir over kira as a horseman. Animate him first and no fear of counter magic or instant speed removal to disrupt the rest.
Yeah, actually, what about Teferi instead of Iona? This actually seems like it might be a better choice. Teferi shuts down all interaction while we animate the horsemen, effectively locking out EVERY color, not just the one that Iona can. And if a pumped Predator Dragon is going to be the win con...who cares that Teferi only has 3 power... hmmm... interesting. Teferi, Predator, Bridge package?
More testing against Merfolk has been troubling. They have a lot of good tools to beat this deck. Vs. D+T and Goblins has been better though.
Also, E-Tutor and Mesmeric Orb are bad together. Very bad. I am kicking around the idea of a mono-blue build. The hardest card to part with is going to be Cabal Therapy. I know I don't actually HAVE to take it out, but I am not happy with yet another card that I have to get rid of to use.
Also, E-Tutor and Mesmeric Orb are bad together. Very bad. I am kicking around the idea of a mono-blue build. The hardest card to part with is going to be Cabal Therapy. I know I don't actually HAVE to take it out, but I am not happy with yet another card that I have to get rid of to use.
I think you need a tutor, and if possible a cheap one. Also you can still use E-Tutor in your Upkeep to get the card you want, of course this costs you one mana more, but you will still get it this way.
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My new houserules:
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
Runner5678, I hope I never said it was "strictly better" than anything. But let's talk about your criticism.
1. "-can go off a turn earlier" I am having trouble going off before turn 4 with the 3-color build. And in the face of good defense, I am going off more like turn 5 or 6. I am unhappy with this, so I am making an effort to make it work in monoblue - much faster potential.
2. "has Aether Vial to make its combo uncounterable" Aether Vial can't be countered?
3. "-Extra Cephalid Illusionists are blue for Force of Will" So? Aphetto Alchemist is a Basalt Monolith replacement only you don't see me bothering with that. There is a very good reason...
4. "both lose to Swords/Path right?" Wrong. That is the very good reason.
5. "-Transmute artifact > Eldamri`s and Worldly Tutor I suppose" I am not sure this is true actually. Testing.
There are a lot of cool interactions missing here. Let's see if it works anyway.
4 mox opal? it's still legendary, don't think you should play more than 3. also 4 SDT is unnecessary. 2-3 is fine. why not removing 3-4 of them to have the cabal therapy back for protection against STP\FOW? seems better to me.
I like this deck. It's probably important to note that e plague on narcos stops this dead too.
The version running Bridge From Below has no trouble with that. Infinite zombies (thanks to your instantly dying narcomoebas) can still provide your sacrifice fodder, or go the distance in combat if all else fails.
without Angel of Despair (or terra or wtv) don't you feel unconfortable against Karakas?
would the kill con as Iona/Retainer/(wtv the control troublesome permanent) as well as the shuffling Emrakul be good? I mean, you can kill Karakas with whatever, Return Iona, Return Retainer. The problem of Retainer vulnerability is solved by Iona. But do Emmy worth it? IMHO, if you pass the turn after comboing out, your doing it wrong. Iona+some kind of infinite still seems like the better option to me :|
If you get really bored you could try silly stuff like Shelldock Isle and Gamekeeper just to have fun.
So why not a control/combo hybrid utilizing both Tezz's and having the engine built into a deck that can win if the combo gets hated?
The combo is certainly a viable one. It's just that playing the combo only seems like crazy sauce to me. So maybe we should examine the engine and use that as a shell. Perhaps people can each select a route they want to try and then we can hash out a really solid build.
So you need the following cards to make this deck shine.
4x Narcomoeba
1x Mesmeric Orb
1x Basalt Monolith
2x Dread Return
1x Eldrazi
Now that is assuming your playing tutors or Tezz. If not you have to add 6 more cards in. So 9 with tutors or 15 without. That leaves you with 45 cards to use and you have no mana restrictions. This in and of itself makes this a viable contender in my book.
Lets look at cards that would be interesting in this deck. Animate Dead would make Enlightend Tutor so much better. Not to mention it would give you a secondary way to reanimate your grave targets. Then again there is Recurring Nightmare, Diabolic Servitude, and literally a host of other spells you could add in to help with the whole Extripated Dread Return sadface moment.
Protean Hulk for the simple fact you can do crazy stuff with it. Sundering Titan as others have mentioned this would really be a beating versus Zoo or other dual land fueled decks. Darkblast for small dudes and hate bears. Cast before you draw dredge it back cast again then win. This would fix the Gaddok Teague issue.
I guess the point I am going for is that this is in fact a viable idea, it just needs work. Also what does saying this deck is worse than x deck help? It is better than Breakfast and similar to Dredge. However this deck isn't as linear as those decks. I'll start brewing on MWS and see what I come up with.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I'm uncomfortable with passing the turn after going off simply because there are only 2 dread returns in the deck. If they do find a way to deal with the fatties then you lose.
The idea of using tezzerets does seem interesting, but I suspect that they'd be too slow.
For the blue build, running chalice of the void would stop StP, PtE and Extirpate. In testing I've also been unhappy with Thirst and Careful study since I've hated the discard bit.
I'm uncomfortable with passing the turn after going off simply because there are only 2 dread returns in the deck. If they do find a way to deal with the fatties then you lose.
The idea of using tezzerets does seem interesting, but I suspect that they'd be too slow.
For the blue build, running chalice of the void would stop StP, PtE and Extirpate. In testing I've also been unhappy with Thirst and Careful study since I've hated the discard bit.
I would only run Tezz in a build with enough excel to make him worth it. Baby Tezz could get onto the board as early as turn 2. He would also give you a secondary win-con.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I am waiting for the lack of a proper tutor to burn me, but so far I have been satisfied. Note the really good defense the deck has now with Thoughtseize and Force of Will. I have also essentially solved the manabase issue unless I play some version of Merfolk with Wastes and Stifles. Predator Dragon has been a flawless kill con. The hardest obstacles I have come in contact with so far have been:
1. The entire Merfolk deck
2. Chalice/Trinisphere decks
3. Pithing Needle in the main of one of the Emrakul decks
But mostly it has been smooth sailing - even before I have even created a SB.
I am waiting for the lack of a proper tutor to burn me, but so far I have been satisfied. Note the really good defense the deck has now with Thoughtseize and Force of Will. I have also essentially solved the manabase issue unless I play some version of Merfolk with Wastes and Stifles. Predator Dragon has been a flawless kill con. The hardest obstacles I have come in contact with so far have been:
1. The entire Merfolk deck
2. Chalice/Trinisphere decks
3. Pithing Needle in the main of one of the Emrakul decks
But mostly it has been smooth sailing - even before I have even created a SB.
Note: My list a few posts back should have been
+1 Bridge from Below
-1 Preordain
I actually could use Fabricate in place of Preordain or something if it came down to it. At the moment, the 15 search cards have been working out pretty well for me, and they all cost one. The way this deck plays, even Divining Tops which essentially cost 2 have been kinda slow. The card that was wonderful was Enlightened Tutor. But it was the only white card in the main deck. It tore up the mana base and did not play altogether well with a Mesmeric Orb in play. I think my solution for this is going to be Lim-Dul's Vault in that spot for now. As long as I am untapping 4 things or less (pretty much always the case), there is never a problem, and it has wide application.
On another note, I am growing confident in the ability of this deck and I want to begin work on a SB. Here are some possibilities I have so far:
I'd add a singleton copy of plaxmanta to stop your predator dragon getting StP all day. You animate the plaxmanta then animate the predator dragon and it has shroud. Yes it is an extra creature to animate but I'd rather that than lose to StP.
My opponents will never have an STP in their hand. I will always have hit them with 2 or 3 Cabal Therapies and an Angel of Despair on the turn I go off.
I just updated the OP. The deck seems to not need the 4th Narcomoeba really ever. Also, more than once I realize that I run out of actual mana-producing lands until I happen to see my eldrazi turn up. So I traded a fetchland for an Island. Perhaps it should be a Watery Grave or even a Swamp. I dunno yet.
Best games yet:
3. Facing Goblins: He has brought in so much defense in game 2 that he can't seem to find a creature except his Tinkerers. But he has three Ports and I had an unused fetchland because he also drew a few Wastelands and I was really short on actual lands. For my part, I am having trouble getting anything at all going. I landed an Orb though, then another. He eventually took one down, but ran out of cards anyway.
2. My opponent gets Painter-Stone combo on me, but he can't kill me because of Kozliek. The next turn, I get my own combo going. We laugh hard as neither of us can seem to make our combos work. He can't kill me and if I go for my combo, he will mill me into my eldrazi. I had to leave the game, but I wonder how to deal with this. I don't even get priority so my grave yard is useless. Bounce, I presume...or Gate to Phyrexia.
1. I play Island and pass.
Opponent plays City of Traitors and Lotus Petal followed by Show and Tell. I gulp and pray for Force of Will in the top three. I find Kozilek. He lays down Emrakul, sacrifices it when I attack, and that was that.
Can't you just let the grindstone resolve, then re-mill your library before your dread return comes off the stack? He needs to tap to mill you, so he can only do it once. You, on the other hand, can keep dumping your library into graveyard indefinitely.
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If you go with FKZ, Kira, Stomtide, and Angel, you can also get the fourth Narcomoeba, adding 2 points of damage. That is 2+2+8+5+1=18 + the 5 damage from FKZ making 23, without the fourth narco, it is 21 unless I'm misscounting.
I am thinking Predator Dragon and Iona. Then perhaps an added Bridge so that the dragon can be over 20 every game. Iona may not really even be necessary though. Their hand will be empty every time.
So, yeah, 1 or 2 animates based on their hand and board position should be sufficient. It's not a perfect lock this way, but it seems that you ought to be able to create an effective lock using a combination of therapy flashbacks and animating Iona in order to negate any of their "outs" that you weren't able to strip.
Are you upping your eldrazi count main in order to handle graveyard hate? It seems like a good insurance policy, but it does make the eventual animate process take so much longer...
I agree that 1 Bridge from Below, 1 Iona and 1 Predator Dragon make a nice package. You should have plenty of Devour fodder when the time comes in order to achieve lethal damage. If they try to hate on the Bridge (well, other than Extirpate) you can protect it by milling into your Eldrazi. Seems sound, I think.
Don't forget that Stormtide prevents you from attacking with FKZ since it's not flying...so with the Kira, Stormtide, Angel and 4th Narco it comes out to 20 damage.
Yeah, actually, what about Teferi instead of Iona? This actually seems like it might be a better choice. Teferi shuts down all interaction while we animate the horsemen, effectively locking out EVERY color, not just the one that Iona can. And if a pumped Predator Dragon is going to be the win con...who cares that Teferi only has 3 power... hmmm... interesting. Teferi, Predator, Bridge package?
Also, E-Tutor and Mesmeric Orb are bad together. Very bad. I am kicking around the idea of a mono-blue build. The hardest card to part with is going to be Cabal Therapy. I know I don't actually HAVE to take it out, but I am not happy with yet another card that I have to get rid of to use.
I think you need a tutor, and if possible a cheap one. Also you can still use E-Tutor in your Upkeep to get the card you want, of course this costs you one mana more, but you will still get it this way.
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
Blue Suite
4 Careful Study
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Narcomoeba
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Basalt Monolith
Combo pieces
2 Dread Return
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
There are a lot of cool interactions missing here. Let's see if it works anyway.
Its pretty likely that you run answers game 2. Like Chain of Vapor or Wipe Away.
1. "-can go off a turn earlier" I am having trouble going off before turn 4 with the 3-color build. And in the face of good defense, I am going off more like turn 5 or 6. I am unhappy with this, so I am making an effort to make it work in monoblue - much faster potential.
2. "has Aether Vial to make its combo uncounterable" Aether Vial can't be countered?
3. "-Extra Cephalid Illusionists are blue for Force of Will" So? Aphetto Alchemist is a Basalt Monolith replacement only you don't see me bothering with that. There is a very good reason...
4. "both lose to Swords/Path right?" Wrong. That is the very good reason.
5. "-Transmute artifact > Eldamri`s and Worldly Tutor I suppose" I am not sure this is true actually. Testing.
I wish I had more time to test.
You know what he meant - it's easy to slip a Vial in early and use it to later make the combo pieces uncounterable (well, barring Stifle/Trickbind).
4 mox opal? it's still legendary, don't think you should play more than 3. also 4 SDT is unnecessary. 2-3 is fine. why not removing 3-4 of them to have the cabal therapy back for protection against STP\FOW? seems better to me.
The version running Bridge From Below has no trouble with that. Infinite zombies (thanks to your instantly dying narcomoebas) can still provide your sacrifice fodder, or go the distance in combat if all else fails.
would the kill con as Iona/Retainer/(wtv the control troublesome permanent) as well as the shuffling Emrakul be good? I mean, you can kill Karakas with whatever, Return Iona, Return Retainer. The problem of Retainer vulnerability is solved by Iona. But do Emmy worth it? IMHO, if you pass the turn after comboing out, your doing it wrong. Iona+some kind of infinite still seems like the better option to me :|
So why not a control/combo hybrid utilizing both Tezz's and having the engine built into a deck that can win if the combo gets hated?
The combo is certainly a viable one. It's just that playing the combo only seems like crazy sauce to me. So maybe we should examine the engine and use that as a shell. Perhaps people can each select a route they want to try and then we can hash out a really solid build.
So you need the following cards to make this deck shine.
4x Narcomoeba
1x Mesmeric Orb
1x Basalt Monolith
2x Dread Return
1x Eldrazi
Now that is assuming your playing tutors or Tezz. If not you have to add 6 more cards in. So 9 with tutors or 15 without. That leaves you with 45 cards to use and you have no mana restrictions. This in and of itself makes this a viable contender in my book.
Lets look at cards that would be interesting in this deck.
Animate Dead would make Enlightend Tutor so much better. Not to mention it would give you a secondary way to reanimate your grave targets. Then again there is Recurring Nightmare, Diabolic Servitude, and literally a host of other spells you could add in to help with the whole Extripated Dread Return sadface moment.
Protean Hulk for the simple fact you can do crazy stuff with it.
Sundering Titan as others have mentioned this would really be a beating versus Zoo or other dual land fueled decks.
Darkblast for small dudes and hate bears. Cast before you draw dredge it back cast again then win. This would fix the Gaddok Teague issue.
I could go on for days. Heck Replenish and the whole Pandemonium /Saporling Burst combo would be funny.
I guess the point I am going for is that this is in fact a viable idea, it just needs work. Also what does saying this deck is worse than x deck help? It is better than Breakfast and similar to Dredge. However this deck isn't as linear as those decks. I'll start brewing on MWS and see what I come up with.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
The idea of using tezzerets does seem interesting, but I suspect that they'd be too slow.
For the blue build, running chalice of the void would stop StP, PtE and Extirpate. In testing I've also been unhappy with Thirst and Careful study since I've hated the discard bit.
I would only run Tezz in a build with enough excel to make him worth it. Baby Tezz could get onto the board as early as turn 2. He would also give you a secondary win-con.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Predator Dragon
1 Angel of Despair
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
I am waiting for the lack of a proper tutor to burn me, but so far I have been satisfied. Note the really good defense the deck has now with Thoughtseize and Force of Will. I have also essentially solved the manabase issue unless I play some version of Merfolk with Wastes and Stifles. Predator Dragon has been a flawless kill con. The hardest obstacles I have come in contact with so far have been:
1. The entire Merfolk deck
2. Chalice/Trinisphere decks
3. Pithing Needle in the main of one of the Emrakul decks
But mostly it has been smooth sailing - even before I have even created a SB.
Desolation Angel is Angel of Despair right?
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
Why not put fabricate to search out the 2 artifacts?
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+1 Bridge from Below
-1 Preordain
I actually could use Fabricate in place of Preordain or something if it came down to it. At the moment, the 15 search cards have been working out pretty well for me, and they all cost one. The way this deck plays, even Divining Tops which essentially cost 2 have been kinda slow. The card that was wonderful was Enlightened Tutor. But it was the only white card in the main deck. It tore up the mana base and did not play altogether well with a Mesmeric Orb in play. I think my solution for this is going to be Lim-Dul's Vault in that spot for now. As long as I am untapping 4 things or less (pretty much always the case), there is never a problem, and it has wide application.
On another note, I am growing confident in the ability of this deck and I want to begin work on a SB. Here are some possibilities I have so far:
Engineered Explosives
Damnation
Boomerang or something better
Ghastly Demise
Pithing Needle
Duress
Spell Pierce
---------------
My opponents will never have an STP in their hand. I will always have hit them with 2 or 3 Cabal Therapies and an Angel of Despair on the turn I go off.
Best games yet:
3. Facing Goblins: He has brought in so much defense in game 2 that he can't seem to find a creature except his Tinkerers. But he has three Ports and I had an unused fetchland because he also drew a few Wastelands and I was really short on actual lands. For my part, I am having trouble getting anything at all going. I landed an Orb though, then another. He eventually took one down, but ran out of cards anyway.
2. My opponent gets Painter-Stone combo on me, but he can't kill me because of Kozliek. The next turn, I get my own combo going. We laugh hard as neither of us can seem to make our combos work. He can't kill me and if I go for my combo, he will mill me into my eldrazi. I had to leave the game, but I wonder how to deal with this. I don't even get priority so my grave yard is useless. Bounce, I presume...or Gate to Phyrexia.
1. I play Island and pass.
Opponent plays City of Traitors and Lotus Petal followed by Show and Tell. I gulp and pray for Force of Will in the top three. I find Kozilek. He lays down Emrakul, sacrifices it when I attack, and that was that.