Well, I think those card images give you an idea of what this is all about..
Instead of durdling around trying to resolve a Grave Titan, why not just cast a 4 mana spell that wins you the game on the spot?
This is a deck I've been working on for a little while, partially because I've been trying to get scapeshift to work in Legacy for a while, but also because it has some insane synergy with the Nic-Fit shell that's already popular.
Premise For Playing this Deck
Similar to Nic Fit, this deck utilizes a core shell of Veteran Explorer & Cabal therapy to generate tons of mana while also disrupting an opponent's gameplan. Since your high mana spells are way more high impact than your opponent's top of the curve spells (at least 95% of the time) you are almost always going to be at an advantage, and also will be immune to popular resource denial strategies.
Unlike Nic Fit, you don't use your mana in here to drop large, generic creatures, but you use it for tutor effects to disrupt your opponent while grabbing a single card combo finish that can deal upwards of 60 damage by turn 4 if not interrupted. The benefits? You have everything it takes for a very strong combo deck. You run a very hard to disrupt gameplan, only need 2 maindeck cards to fully combo out, and get access to tons of tutors and mana acceleration. What more could someone want?
Gameplan, Weaknesses, and Generalize Advantages of This
Because your opponents attacking into your Veteran Explorers plays directly into your gameplan, this deck is naturally powerful against any creature-based deck in Legacy. Similar to regular Nic-Fit, the package of Pernicious deeds give you catch-alls, while Wish & Tutor effects can essentially compensate for any other problems that occur.
More than just that, this deck attacks on a ton of different fronts, and is very difficult for any opposing control decks to interact with. Since you don't play any expensive spells maindeck (relegated for the sideboard mostly) you have full freedom to play 4x Dark Confidant, which has always been a staple in any rock-style deck, and isn't viable in regular Nic-Fit due to the maindeck inclusions of cards like Grave Titan.
As far as weaknesses go, like many similar "rock" style decks, anything that can assemble a really really fast combo (belcher) are a big problem as they can skate around discard effects. Storm is very winnable, especially post board, but it's probably not something that you would say you're favored in.
The only non combo decks that give this a particularly difficult time are decks like Death and Taxes that focus on denying search. Since this deck is almost entirely based of search the library effects, cards like Aven Mindcensor, Leonin Arbiter, and others can be a bit of a problem.
Why play this over regular Nic Fit?
The main benefit to playing this over standard Nic Fit is that you have a ton of flexibility with your tutor package, and are even more difficult to disrupt since you can win directly off a 4 mana sorcery spell that gets resolved. The other benefit is that you generally get a quicker clock than "standard" nic fit would, while still being able to win off control & creature beats.
While this IS a combo deck, it's a rock deck first and combo deck second, and it's important to remember that. One particular benefit to playing this is that you are almost always going to be better in topdeck mode than your opponent will, and as such, you're not all that weak to hand disruption effects.
The first phase of the game almost always involves trying to accelerate into a quick "midgame" or late game phase. While you do have 3x Pernicious deed, it's pretty frequent that you can simply chump block an opponent into oblivion until you can use a tutor to essentially "combo" out off scapeshift. 9x out of 10, this is achieved off Veteran explorer, either by just using it to chump block for lands, or also when used with cabal therapy and even the awesome synergy of Diabolic Intent.
Once you've reached the mid-point of the game, you can either use your wishes to grab combo pieces (either primeval titan or Scapeshift typically) or you can grab additional disruption like Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog, Maelstrom Pulse, Innocent Blood, Firespout, or even slower anti-combo cards like Thought Hemmorhage (which aren't good maindeck, but perfect when combined with accleration & a tutor package).
I like the idea, but the list is messy and inconsistent.
Are you saying this from experience?
Not saying there isn't tons of room for improvement, but typically decks based off tons of tutoring and a toolbox approach look "messy" from the outset.
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Not saying there isn't tons of room for improvement, but typically decks based off tons of tutoring and a toolbox approach look "messy" from the outset.
I've been playing Nicfit for a good while now and have a ton of experience with toolbox style decks.
Your first problem is this deck does literally nothing against most of the Meta if you can't force through the Scapeshift plan. Classic Nicfit can pull aggro with its assortment of efficient beaters and generally 1 Zenithable trump card. You lack both of those. With only 1 Ooze and next to nothing that can even trade with a 3/3, you have next to 0 game against Thresh.
You are actually playing very few ways to tutor Scapeshift. When you have no game other than that one card, you need at least 4 tutors for it.
Your disruption suite is lacking on its best day. You have 0 interaction beyond Deed and Therapy. If your opponent resolves anything early, you just lose. Without a Deed you can't beat anything as mundane as a flipped Delver. You have no removal and no way to reasonably win the long game.
Nicfit is a deck that wants to accelerate the game to its latest stages and then crush the opponent with its superior card quality. The cards that do that are the likes of Grave Titan and Sun Titan. Does Scapeshift win the game on the spot? Potentially. Can you win the game if an opponent has an answer? Absolutely not. Classic Nicfit has an assortment of "must-answer" cards in the main deck to continuously apply pressure. You have Dark Confidant.
The threats you do pack are in such low numbers you have next to 0 chance against Stoneblade. Someone spot removes your Baloth or your single Ooze, you have no clock. The control player can sit around and bide time while you hope you draw a Scapeshift, sculpting the perfect hand in the process. Classic Nicfit can at least utilize Lily of the Veil in these scenarios.
The main consistency problem is with the deck idea itself. Regular Nicfit is so powerful because it can win 8 ways to Sunday at various points in the game. Whether it is Recurring Nightmare or Titan beat down, or Vindicate looping it always has a game plan. This deck has 1 plan, very little protection for that plan, very strict timing restrictions on that plan, and no real way to hinder your opponent if you are put in a situation where you can't Scapeshift.
In addition to Beware's well-reasoned post, I'll add this - Aggro Loam has a better matchup against the meta, is much more consistent in terms of executing gameplan, and has just as many options post-board against the unfair decks.
I like Caleb Durwald as much as the next guy, but some random dude doing well at a free-entry legacy tourney and Caleb "liking" the deck doesn't make it a good direction for nic-fit.
I've been playing Nicfit for a good while now and have a ton of experience with toolbox style decks.
Your first problem is this deck does literally nothing against most of the Meta if you can't force through the Scapeshift plan. Classic Nicfit can pull aggro with its assortment of efficient beaters and generally 1 Zenithable trump card. You lack both of those. With only 1 Ooze and next to nothing that can even trade with a 3/3, you have next to 0 game against Thresh.
This is fair enough. Obviously I don't typically win off aggro, but I've done it more often than you would imagine. Usually after clearing the board a few times, something as innocuous as an Obstinate Baloth or Scavenging Ooze can get there. That being said, you're probably right in saying I need some more diversity in win conditions. I wouldn't cut Dark Confidant, since it's a critically important card, so I'd rather not have a super-high curve, but perhaps something like Thrun would make sense.
You are actually playing very few ways to tutor Scapeshift. When you have no game other than that one card, you need at least 4 tutors for it.
I think you're missing the idea of this deck. It's not a combo deck that wants to win uber super fast. That being said, there are 3 tutors for scapeshift, 2 maindeck copies, and Primeval Titan which can simply be fetched off Living Wish. That's essentially 6 maindeck ways to "combo" out, not to mention Dark Confidant drawing into more answers if/when it sticks.
Your disruption suite is lacking on its best day. You have 0 interaction beyond Deed and Therapy. If your opponent resolves anything early, you just lose. Without a Deed you can't beat anything as mundane as a flipped Delver. You have no removal and no way to reasonably win the long game.
I would normally be somewhat inclined to agree with this, except I've wrecked delver just about every match. Perhaps I've had lucky draws, or perhaps they were bad players. It's Not to say I haven't lost a few games, but I think you may be really misunderstanding the purpose of the wish package. The wish package is there for Disruption before anything else, and only after you've disrupted enough, is it where you grab any combo pieces. Their only relevant answer to this deck is stifle hitting a Veteran Explorer Trigger, or Force of Will, in which they need to counter a LOT of stuff to survive. Their dazes and spell pierces are largely irrelevant here.
The purpose of playing the wish package isn't just for the sake of grabbing a combo answer, it also gives you efficient control over the game. Need a Wrath? Grab a firespout. Need to remove a problem permanent? Grab Pulse. And yes, i'm aware decks play counters for stuff like this, but there just aren't any decks that can efficiently play draw-go all game long and counter every threat/card you play, especially when their tempo-based counterspells like daze and spell pierce are generally useless. Further, you can easily just attack their counters with hand disruption, which makes it pretty damn easy to force through any spell you need to resolve.
Nicfit is a deck that wants to accelerate the game to its latest stages and then crush the opponent with its superior card quality. The cards that do that are the likes of Grave Titan and Sun Titan. Does Scapeshift win the game on the spot? Potentially. Can you win the game if an opponent has an answer? Absolutely not. Classic Nicfit has an assortment of "must-answer" cards in the main deck to continuously apply pressure. You have Dark Confidant.
The threats you do pack are in such low numbers you have next to 0 chance against Stoneblade. Someone spot removes your Baloth or your single Ooze, you have no clock. The control player can sit around and bide time while you hope you draw a Scapeshift, sculpting the perfect hand in the process. Classic Nicfit can at least utilize Lily of the Veil in these scenarios.
This is probably true to a certain degree, and I definitely want 1 more "threat" in here that can take it the distance. I've been considering playing a singleton thrun just for defense as well as a good answer to stuff of this nature.
That being said, I think you're underestimating how easy it can be to force a single scapeshift through. In the same manner that regular nic fit has multiple threats, there are essentially 5x copies of scapeshift that a deck like stoneblade has to account for, and unlike something such as Sun Titan, scapeshift can't be answered by Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, or even just a timely Jace bounce. They may be able to sit around sculpting a perfect hand to defend against scapeshift with, but I can easily sit around sculpting a perfect hand to disrupt counters, especially when you board in thoughtseizes. (their counters are mostly tempo based anyway outside FOW). Also, another important thing to note is that it's pretty relevant to have a deck that has a win condition that's immune to removal.
I do appreciate the advice, and I don't want to sound like "zomg this is the best deck evarrz".
I wouldn't have posted this here if significant testing against the format's t1/t2 decks didn't show it as being a viable deck option. It's far from a finished product, and I love constructive input. That being said if you like the idea, perhaps contribute ideas instead of just saying "this will never work because delver exists" bla bla bla. If you were to ask people a month before nic-fit became a thing if it were viable on this forum, people would have told you to get over playing standard. There actually are TONS of decks like this in legacy that look like junk on paper before you learn to play with them and practice with them.
I think from what you mentioned however, I'm definitely going to look for an additional zenith target that can serve as a "finisher" without killing the Dark Confidant curve. It's a problem Modern Jund decks have essentially. I could risk playing a singleton maindeck Primeval Titan, but it's way too risky with confidants.
Aggro Loam has a better matchup against the meta, is much more consistent in terms of executing gameplan, and has just as many options post-board against the unfair decks.
I would never discredit Aggro loam, but this isn't nearly as weak to decks with graveyard hate, whereas Aggro Loam gets a lot of splash hate off cards like Relic of Progenitus. I know that's not all Aggro Loam has to go off, but I think it would be better to just say that they're entirely different strategies with different advantages and disadvantages.
That being said, I've been considering a small loam package in here, more specifically with Worm Harvest as a backup gameplan and form of inevitability. That being said, one of the few decks I'm either just not good at playing or constructing properly is using loam to it's full advantage. Maybe someone who wants to experiment around with this & a small loam package could offer some advice.
*** Edit ***
I didn't even know that there was a CFB Article about a deck that's very similar (albeit, a bit more focused on winning as fast as possible off scapeshift).
I fail to see how my criticism is not constructive. I highlighted your weaknesses, it's up to you to shore up the holes. I could just tell you what to ass, but then why would you bother to have built the deck in the first place if someone else is just going to tell you how to fix the problems. Some people prefer Hymn to Tourach, some Lily, who am I to tell you what cards fix the problem?
I never said to cut Bob, I was exaggerating to highlight your lack of threats.
You claim you crush Delver, but how do you deal with t1 Delver? You can claim your percentage is good, but everything about this deck says otherwise. It doesn't have to be Deliver, the problem is ANY efficient, evasive dude. Paying 5 mana through 2 cars is obscene to answer something so mundane.
You say the wish package is awesome, but you have 3 wishes in total with no protection for them or your spells. I never claimed Control decks would counter all of your spells. The quality of your spells are so low, they don't have to counter anything until your fundamental turn. You have no clock and no disruption, what do they have to counter?
Your game 1 against the entire format is borderline unwinnable and your game 2 is horrendously inconsistent due to all the one-ofs on account of the Wish board.
Need to answer a problem permanent? Grab Pulse for 5 mana in total. They replay the same thing? You lose. Pulse for 5 mana and Thoughtseize for 3 would never be playable in this format, not even for the explorer shell. You claim you get to sculpt your hand while the control deck does, but you don't actually have that luxury. Your disruption package is still weak, even post-board.
It seems you are the one who fails to understand the purpose of the wish board. A wish board adds consistency. It is meant to ensure the plan of your deck, not to add functionality your deck lacks due to holes in your deck building.
As I've said many times, you have no interactivity. Whether that means adding Lily, or more removal, or Huntmaster of the Fells etc is up to you. You don't want to rush to Scapeshift, but you don't have enough presence to be anything other than an inconsistent combo deck. The CFB list has several ways to win with great odds to draw more, you have no main deck clock which means you must rely on your Spell Snare-able Wishes to win the game if Scapeshift fails.
I like this a lot. I independently (not saying I was first) had the idea of combining Scapeshift with the Nic Fit plan, but the idea sat in my head because I didn't think getting to 7 land was that realistic. I think this deck can do it, though. Here are a few changes I would make, let me know if there are obvious flaws with them.
1. Cut the Living Wish and the Diabolic Intent for two more Burning Wishes, and fully dedicate your sideboard to Burning Wish targets, plus standard graveyard hate to bring in.
2. Change the Tabernacle to a Maze of Ith (Tab is a non-bo with Explorer), and bring it in maindeck over the Stomping Grounds. I think you'll still have enough Mountains, and if you happen to mise into the Maze it'll slow your opponent down a lot in the mid-game.
3. Cut the Explores for Innocent Bloods. This gives you 8 Explorers (counting GSZ) and 8 sac outlets, plus it slows the opponent down. Sacrificing an Explorer is much better acceleration than Explore anyway (hopefully that wasn't confusing).
4. Cut Baloth and the miser's Inquisition for Kitchen Finks and Primeval Titan. Finks over Baloth is a no-brainer for me, it's a much better stall tactic, more resilient, more aggressively-costed, etc. Prime Time might not be the the greatest tutor target, but I figure there may be times where you can use him to get a Valakut win if your Scapeshifts got countered/removed, or if they gained some life and you needed more damage.
I hope you appreciate the constructive criticism. Because I certainly appreciate this deck. I have next to no time to test, but I hope others test this deck because I'm considering bringing it to an SCG now. Good luck!
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I like this a lot. I independently (not saying I was first) had the idea of combining Scapeshift with the Nic Fit plan, but the idea sat in my head because I didn't think getting to 7 land was that realistic. I think this deck can do it, though. Here are a few changes I would make, let me know if there are obvious flaws with them.
1. Cut the Living Wish and the Diabolic Intent for two more Burning Wishes, and fully dedicate your sideboard to Burning Wish targets, plus standard graveyard hate to bring in.
2. Change the Tabernacle to a Maze of Ith (Tab is a non-bo with Explorer), and bring it in maindeck over the Stomping Grounds. I think you'll still have enough Mountains, and if you happen to mise into the Maze it'll slow your opponent down a lot in the mid-game.
3. Cut the Explores for Innocent Bloods. This gives you 8 Explorers (counting GSZ) and 8 sac outlets, plus it slows the opponent down. Sacrificing an Explorer is much better acceleration than Explore anyway (hopefully that wasn't confusing).
4. Cut Baloth and the miser's Inquisition for Kitchen Finks and Primeval Titan. Finks over Baloth is a no-brainer for me, it's a much better stall tactic, more resilient, more aggressively-costed, etc. Prime Time might not be the the greatest tutor target, but I figure there may be times where you can use him to get a Valakut win if your Scapeshifts got countered/removed, or if they gained some life and you needed more damage.
I hope you appreciate the constructive criticism. Because I certainly appreciate this deck. I have next to no time to test, but I hope others test this deck because I'm considering bringing it to an SCG now. Good luck!
Thanks for the input. I think both you and beware are right in that I should have more removal maindeck. Cutting the Explores DOES seem like the best overall plan.
I think you're possibly right in that cutting the wishes for a full on burning wish plan would likely be the best idea here. That being said, I DO like playing living wish as it gives you some answers to dredge (mainly bojuka bog) when needed. I'll have to find another solution I suppose.
I think going for a full on burning wish gameplan could enable more of a loam-based strategy, while similarly fitting the overall gameplan.
I fail to see how my criticism is not constructive. I highlighted your weaknesses, it's up to you to shore up the holes. I could just tell you what to ass, but then why would you bother to have built the deck in the first place if someone else is just going to tell you how to fix the problems. Some people prefer Hymn to Tourach, some Lily, who am I to tell you what cards fix the problem?
I never said to cut Bob, I was exaggerating to highlight your lack of threats.
You claim you crush Delver, but how do you deal with t1 Delver? You can claim your percentage is good, but everything about this deck says otherwise. It doesn't have to be Deliver, the problem is ANY efficient, evasive dude. Paying 5 mana through 2 cars is obscene to answer something so mundane.
You say the wish package is awesome, but you have 3 wishes in total with no protection for them or your spells. I never claimed Control decks would counter all of your spells. The quality of your spells are so low, they don't have to counter anything until your fundamental turn. You have no clock and no disruption, what do they have to counter?
Your game 1 against the entire format is borderline unwinnable and your game 2 is horrendously inconsistent due to all the one-ofs on account of the Wish board.
Need to answer a problem permanent? Grab Pulse for 5 mana in total. They replay the same thing? You lose. Pulse for 5 mana and Thoughtseize for 3 would never be playable in this format, not even for the explorer shell. You claim you get to sculpt your hand while the control deck does, but you don't actually have that luxury. Your disruption package is still weak, even post-board.
It seems you are the one who fails to understand the purpose of the wish board. A wish board adds consistency. It is meant to ensure the plan of your deck, not to add functionality your deck lacks due to holes in your deck building.
As I've said many times, you have no interactivity. Whether that means adding Lily, or more removal, or Huntmaster of the Fells etc is up to you. You don't want to rush to Scapeshift, but you don't have enough presence to be anything other than an inconsistent combo deck. The CFB list has several ways to win with great odds to draw more, you have no main deck clock which means you must rely on your Spell Snare-able Wishes to win the game if Scapeshift fails.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say your criticism wasn't constructive. I probably should edit that.
I think the only thing I had a problem with was you stating as a fact that I lose to a t1 threat as a fact, when actual playtesting has revealed otherwise. Not saying that a t1 delver doesn't make it more difficult, but it's far from unwinnable.
And I know that a wish for a pulse is 5 mana, but this deck generates the mana where the 5 mana investment isn't really a big deal, and when you really need to, it's not that tough to play around the dazes and pierces.
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Thanks for the input. I think both you and beware are right in that I should have more removal maindeck. Cutting the Explores DOES seem like the best overall plan.
I think you're possibly right in that cutting the wishes for a full on burning wish plan would likely be the best idea here. That being said, I DO like playing living wish as it gives you some answers to dredge (mainly bojuka bog) when needed. I'll have to find another solution I suppose.
I think going for a full on burning wish gameplan could enable more of a loam-based strategy, while similarly fitting the overall gameplan.
Pre-board you already have Ooze, Deed and multiple ways to sac your own creatures (removing their Bridges). It's still probably not in your favor but it's better than most decks. Post-board, with 3-4 other hate cards brought in, is probably heavily in your favor.
Note, if you stick with Living Wish, you might want to change the hate to Faerie Macabre, so it works on turn 2 as opposed to turn 3.
I wouldn't try to jam Loams into the maindeck, but one in the sideboard as a Wish target is highly advised. I'd also have 2 Scapeshift in the board so you can wish for a second one if your first wished-for one gets countered.
As for the other criticisms of the deck, I think with 4 Innocent Blood, 3 Deeds and answers in the Wishboard will handle Delvers sufficiently well, and those plus blocking Explorers will probably deal well with most other aggro decks.
If you are worried about non-Scapeshift win-cons, I think Prime Time maindeck helps a lot as a huge dude and a second way to activate Valakut. Another great target is Sigarda, Host of Herons, because it's really hard to kill, but you'd probably want to add one fetchable white source just in case you draw it.
At one point I was going to suggest ditching the Wish plan, but I'm definitely not going to do that because it protects some of your Scapeshifts from Surgical Extraction, which would otherwise be a huge buzzkill. If your biggest fear is getting Scapeshifts countered, that's what Cabal Therapy is for. All you really have to worry about is hard counters anyways. Spell Snares if you're on the Wish plan and Forces otherwise. Spell Pierces and Dazes can be paid for easily if you know they're coming.
My last concern is whether Dark Confidant is the right guy for the job. The card draw is probably worth it, but if you really want a secondary beatdown plan, I'd swap them with Goyfs, or take them out and run extra Oozes, Finks or Thruns. Not sure what the right call is here, probably requires (gasp) testing to figure out, but theorizing can be fun too.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
One buzzkill for this deck, I fear, is UR Delver. You have to name Price of Progress and Snapcaster Mage with Cabal Therapy to ensure they won't just kill you with all the Valakut triggers on the stack post-Scapeshift (assuming a 7-land kill, you can only search for 4 basic Mountains at best, so you get domed for 6 in the best-case scenario).
...Actually, depending on the number of UR Delver decks in the meta, this deck may need an overhaul. Slight testing with a more Nic Fit-like version of your deck (I'm inspired by you) shows UR Delver is faster and disruptive.
...Oh yeah, it can also use Brainstorm to hide its money cards. This match-up is getting worse and worse.
Again, you just keep saying you do well against delver, but your deck says otherwise. Your only MD answers are the 2 wishes and the Deeds. Deed will get Stifled most of the time, and 5 mana is a tough sell when your opponent has you on as fast a clock as Thresh provides. Bob exasperates this problem and Brainstorm can blank your hand disruption. This list is just all around not thought out. I don't know with whom you've been testing, but I assure you it cannot compete in this meta without a good control MU. This deck stomps maverick because everything about the Nicfit shell is great against them.
The number one thing that needs to change is the sheer number of win conditions. It's far too fragile and easily disrupted as is. You claim playing around Daze and Pierce is not hard, but in what magical Christmas land do you frequently have 6-8 mana against tempo decks?
One buzzkill for this deck, I fear, is UR Delver. You have to name Price of Progress and Snapcaster Mage with Cabal Therapy to ensure they won't just kill you with all the Valakut triggers on the stack post-Scapeshift (assuming a 7-land kill, you can only search for 4 basic Mountains at best, so you get domed for 6 in the best-case scenario).
...Actually, depending on the number of UR Delver decks in the meta, this deck may need an overhaul. Slight testing with a more Nic Fit-like version of your deck (I'm inspired by you) shows UR Delver is faster and disruptive.
...Oh yeah, it can also use Brainstorm to hide its money cards. This match-up is getting worse and worse.
Yeah, thats a MU U haven't played, and don't really plan on winning
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Personally, I feel like confidant confines the deck design too much for what it does. There a couple of reasons for this:
1) he opens you up to targeted removal in a big way. My feelings towards the current meta is that you either need to overload on creatures to overload spot removal or just have creatures that gain you advantage even if they are removed. Just putting confidant in here does neither and basically increases the number of cards that can interact with you. (He also turns on spell snares that are otherwise pretty dead against you)
2) By removing confidant you can put in creatures that have a high curve to actually take advantage of all of the ramp you have (huntmaster and primeval titan), this way you have a strong alternative win condition by just beating down versus heavy control decks.
Here's the current list I'm thinking of testing:
4 taiga
4 verdant catacombs
3 wooded foothills
2 bayou
1 badlands
3 forest
3 mountain
1 swamp
3 valakut
4 veteran explorer
3 primeval Titan
3 huntmaster of the fells
1 eternal witness
1 scavenging ooze
I dropped burning wish from the mb bc it seems a bit too slow. Sure, you can grab stuff that adds consistency, but I feel like the power of the deck comes from the fact that even if you don't have ramp going, you can still stall the game enough to find it. Wish is also a very juicy snare target, something the deck doesn't otherwise really have (I guess gsz for 1 kinna counts but you can always dodge it by casting it at 3).
I'm not quite sure that new frontiers belongs in the deck (could be collective journey instead in order to avoid paying a bunch of mana just to get snared), but they are essentially explorers 9-10 in this deck. I figured that since the deck is already giving the opponent so many lands, you'll probably deplete theirs fairly quickly and then it's basically all 1-sided for you after that.
I added innocent bloods and a singleton Primeval Titan. Playing primeval probably isn't the greatest with Confidant, but as a singleton (via Green sun's zenith) it's not the end of the world really. I also switched the tutor package to exclusively burning wish.As for burning wish being expensive, yeah, it's an additional 2 mana, but it also prevents your win con from being fully extracted away, it's incredibly versatile, and considering the mana you develop in this deck, it works out fine.
This deck is really quite powerful I feel now. I do appreciate the earlier suggestions. The only question I have, is does anybody have any strong ideas for anti-sneak & show hate from the sideboard? Phyrexian Metamorph works decently, but I'm tempted to replace 1-2 of the innocent bloods with a Fleshbag Maruader, or something that would give an opponent problems off show and tell.
I've found Jund charm to be randomly really good just a singleton versatile SB card. Grave hate + board sweep in the same card is pretty nice for a utility slot.
I'm Kinda sad to see this deck isn't getting much love here so i hope i can spark some life into it. it is becoming one of my favorite decks. here is what i
am currently running:
Round 1 (low budget eva green)
Game 1:
He is on the play, he starts with a couple of duresses finding no targets. i
play a couple of Vetran Explorer he kills them not knowing there perpise, i keep playing creatures till i draw up Scapeshift and game.
Game 2: (SB in 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Extropate. SB out 2 Wood Elves, 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder, 1 Diabolic Intent)
He is on the play again, i rape hime with Cabal Therapy flashed back twice leaving hime with 2 lands and in top deck i run him over with 2 huntmasters.
1-0-0
Round 2 (Goblins)
Game 1:
He is on the play, First turn goblin lacky who saw that coming right? i play my Vetran Explorer it gets tar fired and he holds me off green with his 2 Rishadan Port so i could get out and creatures i lose very easily.
Game 1:
He is on the play, he Thoughtseize my cobal tharapy leaving me my exsplorer and Innocent Blood i'm ok with that. i play my Exsplorer it gets sworded i'm a liitle bumbed next turn i get my tribe elder... we go back and forth i play a
creature he counters or destroys it i'm ok with it i know he has no idea what
i'm playing hence he countering every liitle thing leaving me flood with land
that i am fine with. finaly we are both down to 1 card i have burning wish in
hand. he has 6 open mana i have seen 3 differnt counter spells (FoW, Spell
Pearce, some other but i can't remember) so i have to think he has a deathright with a jitte on it and 2 counters on the bord, he still has no clue what i'm playing so i burning wish he thinks looking at his 1 card and the bord state he says sure what you got so i know he has a counter just not which yet so i grab scapeshift and look at it for a second be for i reveale it the i say grabing scapeshift his deminer changed very quikely he asked to read it then takes a moment i have nothing on my side of the bord exsept 10 lands and a top. he hands it back looks at his hand shacks his head says sure and grins so i fugue it was FoW so i top before i do anything else thank god 3rd card down is a cabal tharaby i put it on top use the top to draw it name FoW he shows me and there it is i hit him for 40+ he cant gain any more then a hand ful of life. that game took forever.
Game 2: (SB in 1 Pyroblast, 2 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Slaughter Games, SB out 3 Pernicious Deed, 2 Wood Elves, 1 Primeval Titan) he takes about 5 minutes to figure out what to side in.
He is on the play, play a land Thoughtseize me see 2 explorers, cabal tharapy, Innocent Blood, grabs the tharapy passes. i play my exsporer think about flashing back the tharapy but wait and pass he plays stoneforge mystic and grabs batterscull and pass i top deck another tharapy so tharapy for batter scull he was like i just got rid of one i smile, i see his hand and see its full of counteres and disruption so i flash back 1 tharapy hiting his counters grab more land play my other exsporer the flashing the other tharapy riping more out of his hand. his turn he plays th stone forger and passes i Green sun's in to Thrun, the last Troll making all his removal usless. couple turns later i draw into scapeshift for win.
3-0-0
Round 4
Well i was the only undefited and everyone else wanted to call it but i wanted to keep playing then they all were like come on and i said sure we can call it so we stoped.
So I was very happy with the deck i never had a Horable hand. talking to some of the other player they all wanted to know how you defend against a deck that kills you with lands i just laughed and said figure it out. so next time i get a chance to play they don't have the answers hopefully haha.
I know a lot of decks play thragtusk i just don't have any thats why there are none in there.
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hello! i love the idea of this deck, and despite i do not have played legacy on my life, i want to start with this deck...
i wanted to ask you what do you think about playing some bloodbraid elf, i like the idea of having cards that make 2x1 (with a volrath's stronghold is just marvelous) in games that you have to get "aggro" or attack your opponents more quickly.
i also play dark confidants for a similar reason. i think i should play a thrun (having readed all your commments) but i also like playing obstinate baloth for life (i also play 1 ooze, 1 witness, 1 huntmaster, 1 Wickerbough Elder and 1 thragtusk).
i am also playing 3 Perncious Deed and 3 Abrupt decay in the mainlist. what do you think about?
thanks for your time!
List:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Thragtusk
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wickerbough Elder
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
i'm glad to see you have interest in this deck it is a fav of mine. i'm going to try and help you with all your question with the best i can explain.
1st. bloodbraid elf i have tryed him myself before but found he was more painful then helpful for example: cascading and having to pass up on key cards that don't cost less that could have been game changers or even winners then having to put them on the bottom not a great plan. i do see his appeal but trust me you will end up getting mad at seeing him more then happy
2nd. dark confidant i just think this is a bad idea for the fact that our mana curve and live gain can not support him. i know he pairs with the Sensei's Divining Top well but you are only running 2 tops so your likely hood of drawing them is low + if you don't have a top in play and are just top decking with him, top decking Wickerbough Elder, Bloodbraid Elf, Thragtusk, Huntmaster of the Fells are just bad in some matches he could kill you. and you don't want to flood your hand with land you want in play for Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle making it hard to combo out cuz most of your mountains are in your hand if you see what i mean.
3rd. Thrun, the last Troll is a must in this deck he is a mvp of most control matches. he is also Green Sun's Zenith target which is a plus. i can't stress how important he is.
4th. obstinate baloth i can see his upside but i would think him as more of a meta choice, if a lot of poeple play discard were you play then i can see it but other then that he is a weak choice.
5th. playing[list]
[*][list]
[*]1 Scavenging Ooze - i believe is more of a sideboard, but again it is a meta choice if people relay on there graveyards the main deck ok.
[*]1 Eternal Witness - 1 is perfect she doesn't get in the way and can bring back something we really need in a pinch and again great Green Sun's Zenith target.
[*]1 Huntmaster of the Fells - now as for a card that is a 2x1 he is great, life gain/token generator + on the flip side damage dealer/removal (i moved up to 4 in my list)
[*]1 Wickerbough Elder - i ran him at the start of my list an pulled him reason being running Abrupt Decay it does just as well and the gave me another spot
[*]1 thragtusk - a great card strong life gain good beats and token when he leaves play so great card.
[/list]
6th. 3 Perncious Deed and 3 Abrupt decay perfect number don't change a thing. i've tryed going up with them and they began to flood hands.
Now i can't stress enough on main deck Scapeshift it is the bread and butter for us.
i'm interested in seeing what your SB/wishboard looks like
Here is my current list i've been running for a while now
hey! thank you for answering so quickly. first of all, my english is very bad, so i appologise if i write something that is difficult to understand. I actually have not all the deck cards, so I am not playing it in real life, :D; that should be a cause of my "sideboard's bad loooking" (sorry). I will start to test the deck by cockatrice and see how it works, but i am not a cockatrice master, i have to get used to it.
considering what you say; obviusly i take your comment with very much attention, i would like to say some things:
1) i play ooze, because i am very scared of combos that use the graveyard, not only dredge decks, also past in flames, or stuff like that. i also consider that is a good card for grinding, it gets bigger, it wins life and vs decks playing tarmogoyf or bitters it becomes a beautiful bitter or blocker. also, i was playing confidants, so i had to win some life. although deathrite shaman is a good option i have to wait to my next turn to activate it, so it doen'st work for hate and i not prefer him; would you?
2) i really like playing confidants, because if i used the burning wish to tutor some other thing than scapeshift, i have less chances to top deck a new burning wish to find it. also, it's value power is fabulous, and in some maths it can be a trap for the opponent's counters. i swear you i will take in care your advice and test it, but i really want to play it and see how it works. this force me to play obstinate baloth only for life.
3) if your advice that the w. elder isn't good, i will change it for thrun, that you say it's a good option.
4) bloodbraid elf, a card that i love. even though it can cascade some "trash" like a GSZ in a dryad arbor or a late-game cabal therapy, he (she) had give me much matchs giving me value. in jund/junk/rock/stuff like that matchups was really important for my to playing it in the "value race", and also i have cascaded b. wishes or removals that helped me to win. always it is the first option to sideboard out, and i am sure that when i have played the deck some times i will discovered that you are right. in that case is just a matter of changing it for huntmaster/elves and forget about it.
5) as you see, i am not playing Primeval titan. i just don't like him, because i think you play him when you are winning for more power, but when you are loosing it is just a big blocker and double ramp. i had always prefer thragtusk because of the life winning and the 2x1, but probably i am mistaken in this point... do you think so?
6) are the wood elves an the sakura so important? i am seriously considering them but i believe (again, i should probably be mistaken in this point) that i prefer confidants, because he gives me other plans than the scapeshift combo, i can grind playing big creatures with GSZ and, if you look, all my big creatures make me win life, except the bloodbraid elf, that gives me 2x1...
again, i have not played this deck against very much decks, but in my reduced meta game i have good results with dark confidant and bloodbraid elf, you obviusly must be right in your appreciation but i am very obstinate and until i have loosed all the games i will loose because of them i will still playing them. when i have decided to change them i will take into account your advice and put huntmaser and wood elves.
AGAIN THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. i really appreciate your comments and love to find someone that knows about playing this deck. here in argentina, where i am from, playing legacy is very very expensive and i have to wait some time to test this deck well enough; that is a reason because i really appreciate your time and suggests.
Hey i'm more then glad to help and don't worry about your bad English its not that bad. By all means tweak your deck to how you want to play it try things out and see what work and doesn't work thats have the fun of the game. and by no means is my deck "the" deck to play its just a reference of a version to help people see how some things work together.
Were i play i don't see really any deck that really use there graveyard out side of delver decks and there tarmogoyf and nimble mongoose so that is my reasoning for lack of graveyard hate. my original SB use to have GY hate but i took them out and just left in Extirpate and Slaughter Games both uncountable and can really wreck a deck if need be. so by all means run Scavenging Ooze he is a great card that can help many match ups.
deathrite shaman is a card i love but just doesn't fit in our deck, we dont play fetches our really put tons stuff in our or the opponents graveyard.
dark confidant again try it out see what you think i'm a fan of play testing every aspect of the game to see if something does or doesn't work and see for yourself what you thing.
Wickerbough Elder the way i look at it is we play Abrupt Decay, Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse that gives us 7-8 depending on your number preference to deal enchantments and artifacts so he seems kinda over kill i understand he is also a beater but by all means give him a spin and see what you think.
Thrun, the last Troll i can't preach enough about a 4/4 for 4 cant be countered, hexproof, regenerate. beating machine
bloodbraid elf i'm with you here i love the card and by all means test him out run him into the ground and see what happens he may work in your list and thats what play testing is all about.
Primeval titan now here is a card that i'm constantly on the fence about. now i'v been in situations were i got nothing and i draw him and he turns the tide with his size and his ramp that helps out the Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle but on the other hand he is a card i find siding out almost if not every game, and i draw early game and just like ugg when i see him. so by all means its a spot to play with.
wood elves and sakura-tribe elder i look at them in different ways the wood elves and sakura-tribe elder i find very useful at finding my black or red land when i'm missing them and i'm playing against someone who isn't killing my Vetran Explorer to help me ramp. wood elves are not just a one trick pony as it its good flash back fodder for Cabal Therapy, chump blocker to buy more turns but 2 is a max i want to ramp into 7 lands fast but not to much ramp to slow us down from drawing cards we really need. sakura-tribe elder is a little more difficult to understand but he will give us our 3rd land when we need it i've been stuck on 2 a few time and he has saved my butt but its kinda a give and take, but he can grab use any color basic so we wont loose it to a wasteland like wood elves when they grab us duals.
Now one thing that attracts me to this deck is that it has aspects of all 3 deck types, control with our removal and discard, combo with the scapeshift & Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, and agro with our creature which makes us very versatile. which bring me to our SB the and what we play in it being a burning wish deck what we choose is very important weather its wish targets or our non wish target so spend some good time tinkering in here. remember not everything has to be a wish target
But again what i say are no more then personal suggestion to try to help make chooses and give outside perspective on cards and the deck so by all means play it the way you wont to. there is no right and wrong its just play and have fun.
I'm always willing to help, i watch this deck list so i always know when stuff gets posted and am always free to talk about cards and this deck when i get free time.
and what about playing against fast combo decks, like reanimator or show and tell? are they just a game loss, or does this deck have some tricks (like the discard) to defeat them? what was your experience?
I've tried Nic Shift for a bit on Cockatrice and you're not entirely dead to combo, even in Game 1. Early Cabal Therapy can rip them apart just long enough to Scapeshift FTW. Burning Wish can find Thoughtseize to delay them further or Slaughter Games to really rip some of them apart.
I once played a testing game (against myself) where they Show and Telled in Griselbrand, I cheated in Pernicious Deed, then blew it up for X = 8 immediately. Team SnT Drew 7 immediately in response but presumably couldn't find gas and fell into Scapeshift range.
We do rely on our discard spells to help so down fast combo with Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize but also SB stuff like Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast do deal with decks like show and tell. reanimator we still use our discard but thats were side board chooses come into play. cards like Damnation,Extirpate and Scavenging Ooze. By no means are they favorable match ups but post board we can really slow them down to were we can go off and win
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Well, I think those card images give you an idea of what this is all about..
Instead of durdling around trying to resolve a Grave Titan, why not just cast a 4 mana spell that wins you the game on the spot?
This is a deck I've been working on for a little while, partially because I've been trying to get scapeshift to work in Legacy for a while, but also because it has some insane synergy with the Nic-Fit shell that's already popular.
Premise For Playing this Deck
Similar to Nic Fit, this deck utilizes a core shell of Veteran Explorer & Cabal therapy to generate tons of mana while also disrupting an opponent's gameplan. Since your high mana spells are way more high impact than your opponent's top of the curve spells (at least 95% of the time) you are almost always going to be at an advantage, and also will be immune to popular resource denial strategies.
Unlike Nic Fit, you don't use your mana in here to drop large, generic creatures, but you use it for tutor effects to disrupt your opponent while grabbing a single card combo finish that can deal upwards of 60 damage by turn 4 if not interrupted. The benefits? You have everything it takes for a very strong combo deck. You run a very hard to disrupt gameplan, only need 2 maindeck cards to fully combo out, and get access to tons of tutors and mana acceleration. What more could someone want?
Gameplan, Weaknesses, and Generalize Advantages of This
Because your opponents attacking into your Veteran Explorers plays directly into your gameplan, this deck is naturally powerful against any creature-based deck in Legacy. Similar to regular Nic-Fit, the package of Pernicious deeds give you catch-alls, while Wish & Tutor effects can essentially compensate for any other problems that occur.
More than just that, this deck attacks on a ton of different fronts, and is very difficult for any opposing control decks to interact with. Since you don't play any expensive spells maindeck (relegated for the sideboard mostly) you have full freedom to play 4x Dark Confidant, which has always been a staple in any rock-style deck, and isn't viable in regular Nic-Fit due to the maindeck inclusions of cards like Grave Titan.
As far as weaknesses go, like many similar "rock" style decks, anything that can assemble a really really fast combo (belcher) are a big problem as they can skate around discard effects. Storm is very winnable, especially post board, but it's probably not something that you would say you're favored in.
The only non combo decks that give this a particularly difficult time are decks like Death and Taxes that focus on denying search. Since this deck is almost entirely based of search the library effects, cards like Aven Mindcensor, Leonin Arbiter, and others can be a bit of a problem.
Why play this over regular Nic Fit?
The main benefit to playing this over standard Nic Fit is that you have a ton of flexibility with your tutor package, and are even more difficult to disrupt since you can win directly off a 4 mana sorcery spell that gets resolved. The other benefit is that you generally get a quicker clock than "standard" nic fit would, while still being able to win off control & creature beats.
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Wood Elves
4x Dark Confidant
1x Eternal Witness
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Obstinate Baloth
Disruption & Utility
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Explore
Tutors
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Burning Wish
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Living Wish
2x Scapeshift
Lands
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Mountain
2x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Bayou
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Badlands
4x Taiga
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Stomping Ground
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Primeval Titan
1x Thought Hemorrhage
1x Scapeshift
1x Innocent Blood
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Firespout
How to play
While this IS a combo deck, it's a rock deck first and combo deck second, and it's important to remember that. One particular benefit to playing this is that you are almost always going to be better in topdeck mode than your opponent will, and as such, you're not all that weak to hand disruption effects.
The first phase of the game almost always involves trying to accelerate into a quick "midgame" or late game phase. While you do have 3x Pernicious deed, it's pretty frequent that you can simply chump block an opponent into oblivion until you can use a tutor to essentially "combo" out off scapeshift. 9x out of 10, this is achieved off Veteran explorer, either by just using it to chump block for lands, or also when used with cabal therapy and even the awesome synergy of Diabolic Intent.
Once you've reached the mid-point of the game, you can either use your wishes to grab combo pieces (either primeval titan or Scapeshift typically) or you can grab additional disruption like Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog, Maelstrom Pulse, Innocent Blood, Firespout, or even slower anti-combo cards like Thought Hemmorhage (which aren't good maindeck, but perfect when combined with accleration & a tutor package).
My Blog About It
Are you saying this from experience?
Not saying there isn't tons of room for improvement, but typically decks based off tons of tutoring and a toolbox approach look "messy" from the outset.
I've been playing Nicfit for a good while now and have a ton of experience with toolbox style decks.
Your first problem is this deck does literally nothing against most of the Meta if you can't force through the Scapeshift plan. Classic Nicfit can pull aggro with its assortment of efficient beaters and generally 1 Zenithable trump card. You lack both of those. With only 1 Ooze and next to nothing that can even trade with a 3/3, you have next to 0 game against Thresh.
You are actually playing very few ways to tutor Scapeshift. When you have no game other than that one card, you need at least 4 tutors for it.
Your disruption suite is lacking on its best day. You have 0 interaction beyond Deed and Therapy. If your opponent resolves anything early, you just lose. Without a Deed you can't beat anything as mundane as a flipped Delver. You have no removal and no way to reasonably win the long game.
Nicfit is a deck that wants to accelerate the game to its latest stages and then crush the opponent with its superior card quality. The cards that do that are the likes of Grave Titan and Sun Titan. Does Scapeshift win the game on the spot? Potentially. Can you win the game if an opponent has an answer? Absolutely not. Classic Nicfit has an assortment of "must-answer" cards in the main deck to continuously apply pressure. You have Dark Confidant.
The threats you do pack are in such low numbers you have next to 0 chance against Stoneblade. Someone spot removes your Baloth or your single Ooze, you have no clock. The control player can sit around and bide time while you hope you draw a Scapeshift, sculpting the perfect hand in the process. Classic Nicfit can at least utilize Lily of the Veil in these scenarios.
The main consistency problem is with the deck idea itself. Regular Nicfit is so powerful because it can win 8 ways to Sunday at various points in the game. Whether it is Recurring Nightmare or Titan beat down, or Vindicate looping it always has a game plan. This deck has 1 plan, very little protection for that plan, very strict timing restrictions on that plan, and no real way to hinder your opponent if you are put in a situation where you can't Scapeshift.
My Blog About It
I like Caleb Durwald as much as the next guy, but some random dude doing well at a free-entry legacy tourney and Caleb "liking" the deck doesn't make it a good direction for nic-fit.
This is fair enough. Obviously I don't typically win off aggro, but I've done it more often than you would imagine. Usually after clearing the board a few times, something as innocuous as an Obstinate Baloth or Scavenging Ooze can get there. That being said, you're probably right in saying I need some more diversity in win conditions. I wouldn't cut Dark Confidant, since it's a critically important card, so I'd rather not have a super-high curve, but perhaps something like Thrun would make sense.
I think you're missing the idea of this deck. It's not a combo deck that wants to win uber super fast. That being said, there are 3 tutors for scapeshift, 2 maindeck copies, and Primeval Titan which can simply be fetched off Living Wish. That's essentially 6 maindeck ways to "combo" out, not to mention Dark Confidant drawing into more answers if/when it sticks.
FWIW tutors = 2x Burning Wish, 1x Diabolic Intent.
I would normally be somewhat inclined to agree with this, except I've wrecked delver just about every match. Perhaps I've had lucky draws, or perhaps they were bad players. It's Not to say I haven't lost a few games, but I think you may be really misunderstanding the purpose of the wish package. The wish package is there for Disruption before anything else, and only after you've disrupted enough, is it where you grab any combo pieces. Their only relevant answer to this deck is stifle hitting a Veteran Explorer Trigger, or Force of Will, in which they need to counter a LOT of stuff to survive. Their dazes and spell pierces are largely irrelevant here.
The purpose of playing the wish package isn't just for the sake of grabbing a combo answer, it also gives you efficient control over the game. Need a Wrath? Grab a firespout. Need to remove a problem permanent? Grab Pulse. And yes, i'm aware decks play counters for stuff like this, but there just aren't any decks that can efficiently play draw-go all game long and counter every threat/card you play, especially when their tempo-based counterspells like daze and spell pierce are generally useless. Further, you can easily just attack their counters with hand disruption, which makes it pretty damn easy to force through any spell you need to resolve.
This is probably true to a certain degree, and I definitely want 1 more "threat" in here that can take it the distance. I've been considering playing a singleton thrun just for defense as well as a good answer to stuff of this nature.
That being said, I think you're underestimating how easy it can be to force a single scapeshift through. In the same manner that regular nic fit has multiple threats, there are essentially 5x copies of scapeshift that a deck like stoneblade has to account for, and unlike something such as Sun Titan, scapeshift can't be answered by Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, or even just a timely Jace bounce. They may be able to sit around sculpting a perfect hand to defend against scapeshift with, but I can easily sit around sculpting a perfect hand to disrupt counters, especially when you board in thoughtseizes. (their counters are mostly tempo based anyway outside FOW). Also, another important thing to note is that it's pretty relevant to have a deck that has a win condition that's immune to removal.
I do appreciate the advice, and I don't want to sound like "zomg this is the best deck evarrz".
I wouldn't have posted this here if significant testing against the format's t1/t2 decks didn't show it as being a viable deck option. It's far from a finished product, and I love constructive input. That being said if you like the idea, perhaps contribute ideas instead of just saying "this will never work because delver exists" bla bla bla. If you were to ask people a month before nic-fit became a thing if it were viable on this forum, people would have told you to get over playing standard. There actually are TONS of decks like this in legacy that look like junk on paper before you learn to play with them and practice with them.
I think from what you mentioned however, I'm definitely going to look for an additional zenith target that can serve as a "finisher" without killing the Dark Confidant curve. It's a problem Modern Jund decks have essentially. I could risk playing a singleton maindeck Primeval Titan, but it's way too risky with confidants.
I would never discredit Aggro loam, but this isn't nearly as weak to decks with graveyard hate, whereas Aggro Loam gets a lot of splash hate off cards like Relic of Progenitus. I know that's not all Aggro Loam has to go off, but I think it would be better to just say that they're entirely different strategies with different advantages and disadvantages.
That being said, I've been considering a small loam package in here, more specifically with Worm Harvest as a backup gameplan and form of inevitability. That being said, one of the few decks I'm either just not good at playing or constructing properly is using loam to it's full advantage. Maybe someone who wants to experiment around with this & a small loam package could offer some advice.
*** Edit ***
I didn't even know that there was a CFB Article about a deck that's very similar (albeit, a bit more focused on winning as fast as possible off scapeshift).
Explorer-Kut
For anybody interested, link is there.
I never said to cut Bob, I was exaggerating to highlight your lack of threats.
You claim you crush Delver, but how do you deal with t1 Delver? You can claim your percentage is good, but everything about this deck says otherwise. It doesn't have to be Deliver, the problem is ANY efficient, evasive dude. Paying 5 mana through 2 cars is obscene to answer something so mundane.
You say the wish package is awesome, but you have 3 wishes in total with no protection for them or your spells. I never claimed Control decks would counter all of your spells. The quality of your spells are so low, they don't have to counter anything until your fundamental turn. You have no clock and no disruption, what do they have to counter?
Your game 1 against the entire format is borderline unwinnable and your game 2 is horrendously inconsistent due to all the one-ofs on account of the Wish board.
Need to answer a problem permanent? Grab Pulse for 5 mana in total. They replay the same thing? You lose. Pulse for 5 mana and Thoughtseize for 3 would never be playable in this format, not even for the explorer shell. You claim you get to sculpt your hand while the control deck does, but you don't actually have that luxury. Your disruption package is still weak, even post-board.
It seems you are the one who fails to understand the purpose of the wish board. A wish board adds consistency. It is meant to ensure the plan of your deck, not to add functionality your deck lacks due to holes in your deck building.
As I've said many times, you have no interactivity. Whether that means adding Lily, or more removal, or Huntmaster of the Fells etc is up to you. You don't want to rush to Scapeshift, but you don't have enough presence to be anything other than an inconsistent combo deck. The CFB list has several ways to win with great odds to draw more, you have no main deck clock which means you must rely on your Spell Snare-able Wishes to win the game if Scapeshift fails.
My Blog About It
1. Cut the Living Wish and the Diabolic Intent for two more Burning Wishes, and fully dedicate your sideboard to Burning Wish targets, plus standard graveyard hate to bring in.
2. Change the Tabernacle to a Maze of Ith (Tab is a non-bo with Explorer), and bring it in maindeck over the Stomping Grounds. I think you'll still have enough Mountains, and if you happen to mise into the Maze it'll slow your opponent down a lot in the mid-game.
3. Cut the Explores for Innocent Bloods. This gives you 8 Explorers (counting GSZ) and 8 sac outlets, plus it slows the opponent down. Sacrificing an Explorer is much better acceleration than Explore anyway (hopefully that wasn't confusing).
4. Cut Baloth and the miser's Inquisition for Kitchen Finks and Primeval Titan. Finks over Baloth is a no-brainer for me, it's a much better stall tactic, more resilient, more aggressively-costed, etc. Prime Time might not be the the greatest tutor target, but I figure there may be times where you can use him to get a Valakut win if your Scapeshifts got countered/removed, or if they gained some life and you needed more damage.
I hope you appreciate the constructive criticism. Because I certainly appreciate this deck. I have next to no time to test, but I hope others test this deck because I'm considering bringing it to an SCG now. Good luck!
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Thanks for the input. I think both you and beware are right in that I should have more removal maindeck. Cutting the Explores DOES seem like the best overall plan.
I think you're possibly right in that cutting the wishes for a full on burning wish plan would likely be the best idea here. That being said, I DO like playing living wish as it gives you some answers to dredge (mainly bojuka bog) when needed. I'll have to find another solution I suppose.
I think going for a full on burning wish gameplan could enable more of a loam-based strategy, while similarly fitting the overall gameplan.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say your criticism wasn't constructive. I probably should edit that.
I think the only thing I had a problem with was you stating as a fact that I lose to a t1 threat as a fact, when actual playtesting has revealed otherwise. Not saying that a t1 delver doesn't make it more difficult, but it's far from unwinnable.
And I know that a wish for a pulse is 5 mana, but this deck generates the mana where the 5 mana investment isn't really a big deal, and when you really need to, it's not that tough to play around the dazes and pierces.
Pre-board you already have Ooze, Deed and multiple ways to sac your own creatures (removing their Bridges). It's still probably not in your favor but it's better than most decks. Post-board, with 3-4 other hate cards brought in, is probably heavily in your favor.
Note, if you stick with Living Wish, you might want to change the hate to Faerie Macabre, so it works on turn 2 as opposed to turn 3.
I wouldn't try to jam Loams into the maindeck, but one in the sideboard as a Wish target is highly advised. I'd also have 2 Scapeshift in the board so you can wish for a second one if your first wished-for one gets countered.
As for the other criticisms of the deck, I think with 4 Innocent Blood, 3 Deeds and answers in the Wishboard will handle Delvers sufficiently well, and those plus blocking Explorers will probably deal well with most other aggro decks.
If you are worried about non-Scapeshift win-cons, I think Prime Time maindeck helps a lot as a huge dude and a second way to activate Valakut. Another great target is Sigarda, Host of Herons, because it's really hard to kill, but you'd probably want to add one fetchable white source just in case you draw it.
At one point I was going to suggest ditching the Wish plan, but I'm definitely not going to do that because it protects some of your Scapeshifts from Surgical Extraction, which would otherwise be a huge buzzkill. If your biggest fear is getting Scapeshifts countered, that's what Cabal Therapy is for. All you really have to worry about is hard counters anyways. Spell Snares if you're on the Wish plan and Forces otherwise. Spell Pierces and Dazes can be paid for easily if you know they're coming.
My last concern is whether Dark Confidant is the right guy for the job. The card draw is probably worth it, but if you really want a secondary beatdown plan, I'd swap them with Goyfs, or take them out and run extra Oozes, Finks or Thruns. Not sure what the right call is here, probably requires (gasp) testing to figure out, but theorizing can be fun too.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
...Actually, depending on the number of UR Delver decks in the meta, this deck may need an overhaul. Slight testing with a more Nic Fit-like version of your deck (I'm inspired by you) shows UR Delver is faster and disruptive.
...Oh yeah, it can also use Brainstorm to hide its money cards. This match-up is getting worse and worse.
The number one thing that needs to change is the sheer number of win conditions. It's far too fragile and easily disrupted as is. You claim playing around Daze and Pierce is not hard, but in what magical Christmas land do you frequently have 6-8 mana against tempo decks?
My Blog About It
Yeah, thats a MU U haven't played, and don't really plan on winning
1) he opens you up to targeted removal in a big way. My feelings towards the current meta is that you either need to overload on creatures to overload spot removal or just have creatures that gain you advantage even if they are removed. Just putting confidant in here does neither and basically increases the number of cards that can interact with you. (He also turns on spell snares that are otherwise pretty dead against you)
2) By removing confidant you can put in creatures that have a high curve to actually take advantage of all of the ramp you have (huntmaster and primeval titan), this way you have a strong alternative win condition by just beating down versus heavy control decks.
Here's the current list I'm thinking of testing:
4 taiga
4 verdant catacombs
3 wooded foothills
2 bayou
1 badlands
3 forest
3 mountain
1 swamp
3 valakut
4 veteran explorer
3 primeval Titan
3 huntmaster of the fells
1 eternal witness
1 scavenging ooze
4 gsz
4 cabal therapy
2 thoughtseize
3 senseis divining top
3 scapeshift
3 innocence blood
3 pernicious deed
2 new frontiers
I dropped burning wish from the mb bc it seems a bit too slow. Sure, you can grab stuff that adds consistency, but I feel like the power of the deck comes from the fact that even if you don't have ramp going, you can still stall the game enough to find it. Wish is also a very juicy snare target, something the deck doesn't otherwise really have (I guess gsz for 1 kinna counts but you can always dodge it by casting it at 3).
I'm not quite sure that new frontiers belongs in the deck (could be collective journey instead in order to avoid paying a bunch of mana just to get snared), but they are essentially explorers 9-10 in this deck. I figured that since the deck is already giving the opponent so many lands, you'll probably deplete theirs fairly quickly and then it's basically all 1-sided for you after that.
Thoughts?
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wood Elves
1 Primeval Titan
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scapeshift
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Burning Wish
4 Innocent Blood
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Stomping Ground
1 Dryad Arbor
1x Scapeshift
3x Surgical Extraction
4x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Worm Harvest
1x Life from the Loam
1x Shattering Spree
1x Primal Command
1x Jund Charm
1x Massacre
Updated list.
I added innocent bloods and a singleton Primeval Titan. Playing primeval probably isn't the greatest with Confidant, but as a singleton (via Green sun's zenith) it's not the end of the world really. I also switched the tutor package to exclusively burning wish.As for burning wish being expensive, yeah, it's an additional 2 mana, but it also prevents your win con from being fully extracted away, it's incredibly versatile, and considering the mana you develop in this deck, it works out fine.
This deck is really quite powerful I feel now. I do appreciate the earlier suggestions. The only question I have, is does anybody have any strong ideas for anti-sneak & show hate from the sideboard? Phyrexian Metamorph works decently, but I'm tempted to replace 1-2 of the innocent bloods with a Fleshbag Maruader, or something that would give an opponent problems off show and tell.
I've found Jund charm to be randomly really good just a singleton versatile SB card. Grave hate + board sweep in the same card is pretty nice for a utility slot.
Wreck their hand with Discard spells, or just go thrun and whatever else.
Going 1 for 1 with counters and this deck isn't really a good plan to win.
am currently running:
4 Vetran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Wood Elves
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
Spells
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Innocent Blood
2 Scapeshift
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Pernicious Deed
Artifact
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Land
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Extropate
2 Slaughter Games
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Damnation
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroblast
Local little 10 person tournament
Round 1 (low budget eva green)
Game 1:
He is on the play, he starts with a couple of duresses finding no targets. i
play a couple of Vetran Explorer he kills them not knowing there perpise, i keep playing creatures till i draw up Scapeshift and game.
Game 2: (SB in 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Extropate. SB out 2 Wood Elves, 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder, 1 Diabolic Intent)
He is on the play again, i rape hime with Cabal Therapy flashed back twice leaving hime with 2 lands and in top deck i run him over with 2 huntmasters.
1-0-0
Round 2 (Goblins)
Game 1:
He is on the play, First turn goblin lacky who saw that coming right? i play my Vetran Explorer it gets tar fired and he holds me off green with his 2 Rishadan Port so i could get out and creatures i lose very easily.
Game 2: (SB in 2 Slaughter Games, 2 Extropate. SB out 1 Primeval Titan,1 Diabolic Intent, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Sensei's Divining Top.)
Im on the play, i get my Vetran Explorer he tare fires it on his turn then plays
a goblin lacky. my turn i have nothing to combat with the lacky a hand full of lands scapeshift and Slaughter Games, so i play slaughter Games naming Goblin Ringleader hoping to slow him down he throws down his hand its lands aether viel and 1 Goblin Ringleader i got lucky. he doesn't get anything great then i scapeshift for game. he calls for judge doesn't think that the combo works. judge comes over before my opponent says anything the judge see the board and goes ooch you died. i chuckle.
Game 3:
Hes on the play, long story short land each turn + 2 Vetran Explorer and 2 wood elfs later i burning wish into scapeshift in to the win
2-0-0
Round 3: Blade Control
Game 1:
He is on the play, he Thoughtseize my cobal tharapy leaving me my exsplorer and Innocent Blood i'm ok with that. i play my Exsplorer it gets sworded i'm a liitle bumbed next turn i get my tribe elder... we go back and forth i play a
creature he counters or destroys it i'm ok with it i know he has no idea what
i'm playing hence he countering every liitle thing leaving me flood with land
that i am fine with. finaly we are both down to 1 card i have burning wish in
hand. he has 6 open mana i have seen 3 differnt counter spells (FoW, Spell
Pearce, some other but i can't remember) so i have to think he has a deathright with a jitte on it and 2 counters on the bord, he still has no clue what i'm playing so i burning wish he thinks looking at his 1 card and the bord state he says sure what you got so i know he has a counter just not which yet so i grab scapeshift and look at it for a second be for i reveale it the i say grabing scapeshift his deminer changed very quikely he asked to read it then takes a moment i have nothing on my side of the bord exsept 10 lands and a top. he hands it back looks at his hand shacks his head says sure and grins so i fugue it was FoW so i top before i do anything else thank god 3rd card down is a cabal tharaby i put it on top use the top to draw it name FoW he shows me and there it is i hit him for 40+ he cant gain any more then a hand ful of life. that game took forever.
Game 2: (SB in 1 Pyroblast, 2 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Slaughter Games, SB out 3 Pernicious Deed, 2 Wood Elves, 1 Primeval Titan) he takes about 5 minutes to figure out what to side in.
He is on the play, play a land Thoughtseize me see 2 explorers, cabal tharapy, Innocent Blood, grabs the tharapy passes. i play my exsporer think about flashing back the tharapy but wait and pass he plays stoneforge mystic and grabs batterscull and pass i top deck another tharapy so tharapy for batter scull he was like i just got rid of one i smile, i see his hand and see its full of counteres and disruption so i flash back 1 tharapy hiting his counters grab more land play my other exsporer the flashing the other tharapy riping more out of his hand. his turn he plays th stone forger and passes i Green sun's in to Thrun, the last Troll making all his removal usless. couple turns later i draw into scapeshift for win.
3-0-0
Round 4
Well i was the only undefited and everyone else wanted to call it but i wanted to keep playing then they all were like come on and i said sure we can call it so we stoped.
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So I was very happy with the deck i never had a Horable hand. talking to some of the other player they all wanted to know how you defend against a deck that kills you with lands i just laughed and said figure it out. so next time i get a chance to play they don't have the answers hopefully haha.
I know a lot of decks play thragtusk i just don't have any thats why there are none in there.
Im an active trader on MOTL my handle there is Vito
i wanted to ask you what do you think about playing some bloodbraid elf, i like the idea of having cards that make 2x1 (with a volrath's stronghold is just marvelous) in games that you have to get "aggro" or attack your opponents more quickly.
i also play dark confidants for a similar reason. i think i should play a thrun (having readed all your commments) but i also like playing obstinate baloth for life (i also play 1 ooze, 1 witness, 1 huntmaster, 1 Wickerbough Elder and 1 thragtusk).
i am also playing 3 Perncious Deed and 3 Abrupt decay in the mainlist. what do you think about?
thanks for your time!
List:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Thragtusk
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wickerbough Elder
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1st. bloodbraid elf i have tryed him myself before but found he was more painful then helpful for example: cascading and having to pass up on key cards that don't cost less that could have been game changers or even winners then having to put them on the bottom not a great plan. i do see his appeal but trust me you will end up getting mad at seeing him more then happy
2nd. dark confidant i just think this is a bad idea for the fact that our mana curve and live gain can not support him. i know he pairs with the Sensei's Divining Top well but you are only running 2 tops so your likely hood of drawing them is low + if you don't have a top in play and are just top decking with him, top decking Wickerbough Elder, Bloodbraid Elf, Thragtusk, Huntmaster of the Fells are just bad in some matches he could kill you. and you don't want to flood your hand with land you want in play for Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle making it hard to combo out cuz most of your mountains are in your hand if you see what i mean.
3rd. Thrun, the last Troll is a must in this deck he is a mvp of most control matches. he is also Green Sun's Zenith target which is a plus. i can't stress how important he is.
4th. obstinate baloth i can see his upside but i would think him as more of a meta choice, if a lot of poeple play discard were you play then i can see it but other then that he is a weak choice.
5th. playing[list]
[*][list]
[*]1 Scavenging Ooze - i believe is more of a sideboard, but again it is a meta choice if people relay on there graveyards the main deck ok.
[*]1 Eternal Witness - 1 is perfect she doesn't get in the way and can bring back something we really need in a pinch and again great Green Sun's Zenith target.
[*]1 Huntmaster of the Fells - now as for a card that is a 2x1 he is great, life gain/token generator + on the flip side damage dealer/removal (i moved up to 4 in my list)
[*]1 Wickerbough Elder - i ran him at the start of my list an pulled him reason being running Abrupt Decay it does just as well and the gave me another spot
[*]1 thragtusk - a great card strong life gain good beats and token when he leaves play so great card.
[/list]
6th. 3 Perncious Deed and 3 Abrupt decay perfect number don't change a thing. i've tryed going up with them and they began to flood hands.
Now i can't stress enough on main deck Scapeshift it is the bread and butter for us.
i'm interested in seeing what your SB/wishboard looks like
Here is my current list i've been running for a while now
4 Vetran Explorer
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Wood Elves
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
Spells
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Scapeshift
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Pernicious Deed
Artifact
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Land
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Extirpate
2 Slaughter Games
1 Banefire
1 Damnation
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroblast
Any other questions feel free to ask i'll do my best to get you any answers hope this has helped
List tags are malformed.
Im an active trader on MOTL my handle there is Vito
considering what you say; obviusly i take your comment with very much attention, i would like to say some things:
1) i play ooze, because i am very scared of combos that use the graveyard, not only dredge decks, also past in flames, or stuff like that. i also consider that is a good card for grinding, it gets bigger, it wins life and vs decks playing tarmogoyf or bitters it becomes a beautiful bitter or blocker. also, i was playing confidants, so i had to win some life. although deathrite shaman is a good option i have to wait to my next turn to activate it, so it doen'st work for hate and i not prefer him; would you?
2) i really like playing confidants, because if i used the burning wish to tutor some other thing than scapeshift, i have less chances to top deck a new burning wish to find it. also, it's value power is fabulous, and in some maths it can be a trap for the opponent's counters. i swear you i will take in care your advice and test it, but i really want to play it and see how it works. this force me to play obstinate baloth only for life.
3) if your advice that the w. elder isn't good, i will change it for thrun, that you say it's a good option.
4) bloodbraid elf, a card that i love. even though it can cascade some "trash" like a GSZ in a dryad arbor or a late-game cabal therapy, he (she) had give me much matchs giving me value. in jund/junk/rock/stuff like that matchups was really important for my to playing it in the "value race", and also i have cascaded b. wishes or removals that helped me to win. always it is the first option to sideboard out, and i am sure that when i have played the deck some times i will discovered that you are right. in that case is just a matter of changing it for huntmaster/elves and forget about it.
5) as you see, i am not playing Primeval titan. i just don't like him, because i think you play him when you are winning for more power, but when you are loosing it is just a big blocker and double ramp. i had always prefer thragtusk because of the life winning and the 2x1, but probably i am mistaken in this point... do you think so?
6) are the wood elves an the sakura so important? i am seriously considering them but i believe (again, i should probably be mistaken in this point) that i prefer confidants, because he gives me other plans than the scapeshift combo, i can grind playing big creatures with GSZ and, if you look, all my big creatures make me win life, except the bloodbraid elf, that gives me 2x1...
again, i have not played this deck against very much decks, but in my reduced meta game i have good results with dark confidant and bloodbraid elf, you obviusly must be right in your appreciation but i am very obstinate and until i have loosed all the games i will loose because of them i will still playing them. when i have decided to change them i will take into account your advice and put huntmaser and wood elves.
AGAIN THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. i really appreciate your comments and love to find someone that knows about playing this deck. here in argentina, where i am from, playing legacy is very very expensive and i have to wait some time to test this deck well enough; that is a reason because i really appreciate your time and suggests.
Here is my tentative "not-tested" sideboard:
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games
1 Thoughtseize
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Hull Breach
1 Innocent Blood
1 Tsunami
1 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast
Thanks a lot, i would love to continue talking! best wishes (:P)!
Were i play i don't see really any deck that really use there graveyard out side of delver decks and there tarmogoyf and nimble mongoose so that is my reasoning for lack of graveyard hate. my original SB use to have GY hate but i took them out and just left in Extirpate and Slaughter Games both uncountable and can really wreck a deck if need be. so by all means run Scavenging Ooze he is a great card that can help many match ups.
deathrite shaman is a card i love but just doesn't fit in our deck, we dont play fetches our really put tons stuff in our or the opponents graveyard.
dark confidant again try it out see what you think i'm a fan of play testing every aspect of the game to see if something does or doesn't work and see for yourself what you thing.
Wickerbough Elder the way i look at it is we play Abrupt Decay, Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse that gives us 7-8 depending on your number preference to deal enchantments and artifacts so he seems kinda over kill i understand he is also a beater but by all means give him a spin and see what you think.
Thrun, the last Troll i can't preach enough about a 4/4 for 4 cant be countered, hexproof, regenerate. beating machine
bloodbraid elf i'm with you here i love the card and by all means test him out run him into the ground and see what happens he may work in your list and thats what play testing is all about.
Primeval titan now here is a card that i'm constantly on the fence about. now i'v been in situations were i got nothing and i draw him and he turns the tide with his size and his ramp that helps out the Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle but on the other hand he is a card i find siding out almost if not every game, and i draw early game and just like ugg when i see him. so by all means its a spot to play with.
wood elves and sakura-tribe elder i look at them in different ways the wood elves and sakura-tribe elder i find very useful at finding my black or red land when i'm missing them and i'm playing against someone who isn't killing my Vetran Explorer to help me ramp. wood elves are not just a one trick pony as it its good flash back fodder for Cabal Therapy, chump blocker to buy more turns but 2 is a max i want to ramp into 7 lands fast but not to much ramp to slow us down from drawing cards we really need. sakura-tribe elder is a little more difficult to understand but he will give us our 3rd land when we need it i've been stuck on 2 a few time and he has saved my butt but its kinda a give and take, but he can grab use any color basic so we wont loose it to a wasteland like wood elves when they grab us duals.
Now one thing that attracts me to this deck is that it has aspects of all 3 deck types, control with our removal and discard, combo with the scapeshift & Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, and agro with our creature which makes us very versatile. which bring me to our SB the and what we play in it being a burning wish deck what we choose is very important weather its wish targets or our non wish target so spend some good time tinkering in here. remember not everything has to be a wish target
But again what i say are no more then personal suggestion to try to help make chooses and give outside perspective on cards and the deck so by all means play it the way you wont to. there is no right and wrong its just play and have fun.
I'm always willing to help, i watch this deck list so i always know when stuff gets posted and am always free to talk about cards and this deck when i get free time.
Im an active trader on MOTL my handle there is Vito
I once played a testing game (against myself) where they Show and Telled in Griselbrand, I cheated in Pernicious Deed, then blew it up for X = 8 immediately. Team SnT Drew 7 immediately in response but presumably couldn't find gas and fell into Scapeshift range.
We do rely on our discard spells to help so down fast combo with Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize but also SB stuff like Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast do deal with decks like show and tell. reanimator we still use our discard but thats were side board chooses come into play. cards like Damnation,Extirpate and Scavenging Ooze. By no means are they favorable match ups but post board we can really slow them down to were we can go off and win
Im an active trader on MOTL my handle there is Vito