I don't play infect in vintage. I play infect in legacy and it isn't as bad as you describe. You have some very valid point and are very knowledgeable about the deck, but I designed my deck the way I did for that very specific reason. We need to be VERY consistent in order to ensure the optimum win turn. Meaning we need to run JUST enough creatures and JUST enough pump alongside JUST enough protection/acceleration. I used to run lotus petals in addition and hated it because I would top deck that while I needed something else. I've found 16 creatures to be enough actually, because usually we need one. I like having 20 Pump as well. Seems to be just enough even thought I'd somehow like to get to 21-22. If only there was a creature that could pump itself of give pump to others (e.g. - Llanowar Augur). The acceleration is minimal because I do NOT want to draw it too much later and ESG has the added benefit of swinging for real damage if I need it to. Same with hierarch as mana fixing. Therefore, with all of that accel I can run 17-18 lands, which I choose to risk 17 because I'd rather have JUST enough than be flooded. Vines lets the deck push through limited disruption just enough to see the win. We cannot hope to win against a deck with HEAVY disruption and that is just a fact. We must treat this as a combo deck and optimize a win.
That shortage of mana and lack of black accelerants is also why I'm hesitant to drop in any more overgrown tombs and such. Wasteland is a *****.
Sorry to hear that. Maybe you need more speed? Trample over emrakul?
Deathtouching tramplers need assign only one damage per blocker. Virulent Swipe is the best option for this - its four power over two turns for one mana, plus deathtouch, which can be highly relevant. If your dudes come out fast enough, you can force him to block an infect with emrakul, whereupon you virulent swipe it and kill emrakul.
Firstly, I am glad to get good discussion about Infect. I am primarily a Black-leaning player, so that tends to color my opinions. I still would like to sleeve-up and try your Green list, but I have no Berserk (still trying to get my hands on some), and no Noble Hierarch.
I mostly agree with you on the 20/20/20 balance of creatures/pump/mana. My biggest concern with that breakdown is that, comparatively speaking, every other creature-based deck has better bears, and one-drops. Like compare Blight Mamba vs. Gatekeeper of Malakar. Gatekeeper is amazing! Blight Mamba is almost unplayable. Hexmage, Stoneforge Mystic, Tidehollow Sculler..these are just some of the amazing CMC 2 cards that make the Infect creatures look very weak. And then there's Confidant...
I've been considering a mono-black list with more control, and Hatred, but again the Infect creatures are lacking strong 2-for-1 mechanics. I've poked at a Doomsday build which is also interesting, but seems inconsistent, and makes Jace all the more frightening.
I've also thought about a combo-style R/B list that tries to combo out on instant mana, Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal/Spirit Guide, with cantrips/draw to pump/haste and then use Soulshriek to kill...but it seems even more inconsistent. I've been trying to think-out a Red/Green list, but it always ends up as something kind of like Belcher, but worse.
I haven't had too much trouble with Wasteland, but it is always there, waiting for you to get sloppy. I also run 17 lands and I think that is just fine especially with the curve topping out at 3. I have found that 16 creatures is enough, until it's not. Losing one creature to a counterspell/swords/burn can be ok, but if I lose two, I am likely in trouble. Three, and it could be game over.
This is why I'd really like to see 20/24 viable creatures post MBS, or better creatures that let us fetch, while still being CMC =< 3. I think the crusader looks amazing. He'd be the best thing I could Dark Ritual out on turn 1, and I don't think I'd ever be sad to draw him later in the game. Pro-white means no swords against control, and pro-red means he'll eat goblins and dodge burn all day.
Fair enough...everyone has his/her preference of color. You're running rouse then? Maybe also run unholy strength?
I don't think blight mamba is so bad. Actually one of the better creatures in the deck. It can chump ALL DAY.
Hatred is a good card, but it is brutal when countered or if you get low on life for some reason. Can really backfire.
If you like the green list then you should get magic work station and test on there. You can proxy up the deck and see how you like it and if it even works for you. Don't get the berserk until you have thoroughly tested the deck.
Speaking of MWS. I've been testing the deck.
Some of my matches:
TES:
Did fairly well. I think I went 2-1 against a few lists throughout the week. It is basically a race, but we are a bit more consistent as we don't have to sculpt our hand. Any pump + Zerk is mvp here.
Survival:
Rough match, but if you can be fast enough it is a win. Trample over VV and chump them with mamba all day. The U splash is tougher than the W as swords is easier to deal with than control. Ichorclaw and Plague are mvps here.
Burn:
Played a couple of games against burn and it is not as bad of a MU as I though. Avoid fate and vines are MVP and using invigorate to keep dudes alive. Lavamancer is the scariest thing you can see hit the board next to jitte.
Seriously though, the mamba and the asp are just bad, IMO you're better off with cards like Goyf & Nantuko Shade that are intimidating as blockers or offensively; the new knight looks amazing for this, pretty much immune to all removal and helps you swing through many creatures, even this early I can tell its exactly the kind of resilience this deck needs to be competetive.
As someone mentioned earlier, many of the creatures are 1/1 nubs on their own. The better legacy decks are either more consistently faster or are made to handle this kind of fast clock, just simple Daze, bolt, stp/path followed by goyf can really knock you back 2 turns and make it very difficult to win. Tainted strike allows infect decks to utilize better creatures instead of being at the mercy of whatever 1/1 dorks available, my 2cents ^^
I used Rouse a while ago, and didn't care for it at all. The argument is that it's "free" but it is not free, it takes up 4 slots in a deck. I took it out for Vampire's Bite. +2 is not usually a useful pump value. Invigorate, Rancor, Bite is 10, whereas Rouse wouldn't be enough.
Unholy Strength I have gone back-and-forth on. I was actually thinking about moving to enchantment-based pump in the Black version. If I am going to lean more tword the suicide-black style, this makes more sense. I'd keep Invigorate, of course and add Jitte. I may poke at that kind of a build.
Seriously though, the mamba and the asp are just bad, IMO you're better off with cards like Goyf & Nantuko Shade that are intimidating as blockers or offensively; the new knight looks amazing for this, pretty much immune to all removal and helps you swing through many creatures, even this early I can tell its exactly the kind of resilience this deck needs to be competetive.
As someone mentioned earlier, many of the creatures are 1/1 nubs on their own. The better legacy decks are either more consistently faster or are made to handle this kind of fast clock, just simple Daze, bolt, stp/path followed by goyf can really knock you back 2 turns and make it very difficult to win. Tainted strike allows infect decks to utilize better creatures instead of being at the mercy of whatever 1/1 dorks available, my 2cents ^^
I used Rouse a while ago, and didn't care for it at all. The argument is that it's "free" but it is not free, it takes up 4 slots in a deck. I took it out for Vampire's Bite. +2 is not usually a useful pump value. Invigorate, Rancor, Bite is 10, whereas Rouse wouldn't be enough.
Unholy Strength I have gone back-and-forth on. I was actually thinking about moving to enchantment-based pump in the Black version. If I am going to lean more tword the suicide-black style, this makes more sense. I'd keep Invigorate, of course and add Jitte. I may poke at that kind of a build.
Ya jitte is always a STRONG move especially on MAMBA! It is basically like....hey....give me free counters on jitte each turn.
This is what I ended up with, after taking a control aspect. It's basically a suicide-black shell using Infect. It actually seems like it's pretty solid.
I lied when I said I'd keep Invigorate, apparently It's amazing in a Berserk-Aggro build, but it dilutes this deck (once again, 'free' still takes up card slots). A green-splash could be viable but I think that trying to make a control-build explosive is a mistake, and vice versa.
Hand of the Praetors goes from 'unplayable' to fairly strong, in this kind of a build. He's not the total badass that Abyssal Persecutor is, but his lord effect is essentially +2/+1, and he is essentially a 6/2. He still has no evasion or protection, but he seems to be the best card for the slot, at least for now.
Phyrexian Arena vs. Dark Confidant is a rough choice. I'm not running any sac-outlets, and the rest of the deck doesn't have any synergy with sacrifice, which is why I arrived at Arena.
Because I have Arena over Bob, I opted for Vendetta, but that could easily be something different. Edict, or what-not.
Ritual could be dropped for something else. The deck doesn't need accel, since it plays the early game hand control, and then starts to lay-down threats. There is hardly a more brutal T1 than Ritual, Duress, Hymn, though, and combined with being able to pump out a threat on T2 or T3 while keeping up disruption I think makes it a viable choice. A T1 ritual will almost always draw a Force of Will. Sure you lost your Ritual, but if you were casting to power out Duress/Hymn, you just got 2-for-1 without having to expend that Duress/Hymn.
A Wasteland + Sinkhole package could work, I have neither.
Lake of the Dead is in there, but not needed. It's Wasteland bait, but if you play Lake and don't get your value out of it when you drop it, I do not believe it was the right play. Bog is an option, but coming into play tapped seems to me a bigger drawback than saccing swamps in this deck, and Bog just begs to be wastelanded without you gaining any benefit.
Sideboard...ahh...maybe something like a 4th Duress, Smother, maybe Sadistic Sacrement, Leyline/Crypt/some GY hate.
I had been piecing the deck together after work all week, but hadn't settled on a final 75 until it was go time, and I seem to have misplaced a SB card, I think it was a Vexing Shusher. The store I go to has Legacy only on the first friday of the month, and the November one was supplanted by Wizard World, so we hadn't played legacy in 2 months. We get a good range of players, and we get a lot of different people playing a lot of different decks each month, I had no idea who would show, or what would be played, so my deck was pretty single-minded and the SB pretty schizo. I figured THEY would have to worry about ME. Anyway, it felt right.
Memories are a little hazy on the details 3 weeks later, but this is pretty much how it went.
Round 1 vs some sort of budget affinity
I think he was a teenager without a full rack of stuff, but it seemed like it was a poor matchup for him regardless. I won in 7 turns, 4 in game 1 and 3 in game 2. We played another game for fun and his deck chose then to come together, curving up perfectly from Ornithopter to Disciple to Cranial Plating to Master of Etherium and I couldn't do anything. Fortunately, I didn't have to.
1-0
Round 2 vs Goblins
Game 1 I mulliganed to a weak 5 and got overrun.
Game 2 he mulliganed to a weak 5 and got overrun.
Game 3 we both kept 7, he went Lackey-go, I had turn 1 Dark Ritual into Engineered Plague and that was pretty much that.
2-0
Round 3 vs Survival-Vine
Game 1 was close. He countered my first couple creatures, figuring correctly that the best way to keep from being poisoned was to deny me poisonous creatures to begin with. Eventually I stuck a Vector Asp, but couldn't find more land or free pumps fast enough.
Game 2 I sided in 8 or 9 cards. I drew a hand with a Leyline, but no lands. I figured the Leyline would give me time to draw a land, since it was a very good hand otherwise, and I was right. He was a little thrown when I opened with a Leyline and said,"Go" with no other action, but no matter. I did draw a land next turn, and got an Asp out, while he had to wait to draw a creature he could throw into the Void. I hit him a couple times, but again couldn't draw another land or free pump, so I had to commit my one black mana to infect. Eventually he Survivaled up a Trygon Predator. I held it off with a Plague Stinger for a turn, but couldn't kill it, so it got through, blew up the Leyline, and he was able to swarm with Vines again.
Actually, it wasn't ever really a close match. He had been holding counters to prevent pumps, so his clock wouldn't have been much accelerated. Drawing more tools to combat Survival would've been nice, but so would lots of things. Maybe should've mulled there.
2-1
Round 4 vs Helm-Top combo
I think this went 3 games.
Game 1 I poisoned him quickly, so I wasn't really sure what he was doing. I saw a Top, and some Islands, so I figured some sort of Counter-Top, but it was over too quickly.
Game 2 I saw it. He got out Helm of Awakening and 2 Tops with Jace's Erasure, and milled me out.
Game 3 I sided in a ton again, but dang if I didn't see a single Needle or Grip or anything. He had Counterbalance-Top active, so kept me off a lot of things, but I think I got him up to 8 or 9 poison counters before he assembled his combo.
I actually hadn't seen this deck before, and I have a mill-deck fetish, so it was interesting to see. I just wish it hadn't been something to keep me from going 3-1 instead of 2-2. And I wish I had read Helm better. I don't think I realized it affected my spells as well. That might've made a difference, although with nearly everything costing 1-2 mana, I was right in Counterbalance's wheelhouse. Still, how often are two decks paired up against each other where neither cares about doing 20 normal points of damage?
The deck is tons of fun to play. I mean, how many decks can play a 1/1 on turn 1 and win with that critter on turn 2? And that's a fairly achievable plan? However, it fairly folded up like one would expect to countermagic, and I'd be worried about facing a greater variety of aggro like Zoo, where Plagues would have less of an effect.
I had zero prep, as I mentioned, as up till start time I was sifting through my stack of candidate cards, from more robust creatues like Cystbearer to creature removal like Snuff Out (which I wished I had for Trygon Predator) to oft-mentioned Hymn to Tourach or Livewire Lash, to very obscure pump spells and tricks like Glimpse of Nature or Troll Ascetic+Tainted Strike. Perhaps trading out some of the pump and creatures and getting more into maindeck hand disruption would make it operate better, preventing them from having answers to my particular challenges. I ran into zero creature removal, zero burn, zero Storm combo, so this was a very limited test, and it revealed strengths and weaknesses. Not sure I'll play this again, but there's bound to be continued development if/when poison is continued Besieged and the future.
BG infect reminds me of ppl who try to play hybrid infect/non-infect Scars Limited. It just isn't a good idea... besides mono-Green has a plethora of awesome cards.
If you are that obsessed with a turn-2 kill... just run more Spirit Guides or Lotus Petals and it's just as consistent as drawing a Vesper Asp.
That MBS B Knight does have me doing a double take... but still hoping against hope for a G 1/1 infect.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
I'd have to respectfully disagree about playing BG being a weakness. Black allows for the addition of key cards. Vector Asp is the only 1-drop infecter (though I know it's effectively a 2-drop), and Plague Stinger is the only flying infecter (aside from the much more costly Skithiryx), very relevant against many decks as flying is a fairly rare ability in commonly played creatures. Second, it allows for Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK, which I feel is very important. If Vines is your only protection against targetted removal, that's a thin plan, and since I include very little removal/disruption it's even thinner. Finally, as noted in my match against Goblins, a timely Engineered Plague wins games by itself.
While I think the nature of the deck requires going all out to win ASAP, and maybe going mono-colored with more accel is a valid plan, I think you have to trade that goal with the realities of other decks that are more flexible in their plans. The black cards I chose lend themselves to that. In my matches, I was never color-screwed, but just mana-screwed and/or pump-screwed (which sounds awful). Dropping Thoughtseize for Giant Growth or Lotus Petal or whatever maybe could've helped, but Seizing an Echoing Truth from a player's hand before playing pump spells on my Vector Asp seemed like a good idea at the time. That said, I'd like to see a mono-green list. Please post if you have one.
==================Update 1/8/11
Played this deck again last night, I think exactly the same except a couple SB changes. I added a Fulminator Mage for some reason, I think to disrupt Zoo and a D&T deck I saw someone messing around with. But it was another fun night of quick kills mixed with agonizing can't-do-anything moments.
Rd 1 vs white weenie
Bashed through the little dudes in fairly short order. Infect gave him only one shot with Kitchen Finks et al, not that life means anything for this deck.
1-0
Rd 2 vs Affinity
Game 1 was turn 1 Vector Asp. He played an artifact land and 2 ornithopters. On my turn 2 I swung, he chose not to block, I turned on infect, played Rouse, Invigorate, Invigorate, and left him rereading both cards a couple times. Game 2 he got a much quicker start with Thopters, Cranial Plating, DoTV, and an Arcbound Ravager in fairly short order while I had gotten an Asp and a Blight Stinger, but attacking was pointless. He added a Frogmite and a Myr Enforcer, while I timely drew a K Grip to destroy the plating when he attacked. He got a Sword of Light and Shadow on a Thopter. I got an Ichorclaw Myr. Then he got a Jitte, attacked, and killed my Stinger and Asp after he got the charge counters, but luckily not my Myr, which was key due to the Pro Black from the Sword, but he didn't have enough mana to re-equip, anyway. I swung in with the Myr, luckily he blocked with a 2/2 Frogmite rather than a bigger or multiple creatures. After the pump resolved, I played Invigorate, then Berserk, ending up with a 14/7 trampler and the match.
2-0
Rd 3 vs Zoo
Yeah, this went pretty much like I feared. I played an Asp, he played a Loam Lion. I played a Blight Stinger, he Lightning Helixed it. I think I only got 1 attack in the whole match. I sided in Fulminator, but never saw it. He was stuck on 1 red source, and a Thoughtseize showed that he had 1 bolt and 2 Chain Lightnings, so I maybe with some luck could've gotten through game 2, but nah, didn't happen.
2-1
Rd 4 vs some sort of dark Zoo dredge
I had seen this deck between rounds, so I knew it won through Goyfs, Countryside Crusher, and Devastating Dreams. Game 1 I played a Blight Stinger. He played Devastating Dreams for 1, but I had Invigorate to save the Stinger. I played a Rancor on it and swung for 3. Then again the next turn. Then I drew and played a Noble Hierarch and he scooped. Game 2 he mulled to 6, then 5, then conceded. I had a strong hand anyway.
3-1, good for 4th place out of 18ish.
I'm not sure what the Duress should be if anything else. I don't mind Duressing the inevitable spell that they have to help them answer my infector. I mean, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and counter spells all see play so I figured it wouldn't be bad in the main. Probably going to swap 5 fetches out for 3 Overgrown Tomb, a forest and a Swamp. Not sure on SB yet.
I'd have to respectfully disagree about playing BG being a weakness. Black allows for the addition of key cards. Vector Asp is the only 1-drop infecter (though I know it's effectively a 2-drop), and Plague Stinger is the only flying infecter (aside from the much more costly Skithiryx), very relevant against many decks as flying is a fairly rare ability in commonly played creatures. Second, it allows for Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK, which I feel is very important. If Vines is your only protection against targetted removal, that's a thin plan, and since I include very little removal/disruption it's even thinner. Finally, as noted in my match against Goblins, a timely Engineered Plague wins games by itself.
While I think the nature of the deck requires going all out to win ASAP, and maybe going mono-colored with more accel is a valid plan, I think you have to trade that goal with the realities of other decks that are more flexible in their plans. The black cards I chose lend themselves to that. In my matches, I was never color-screwed, but just mana-screwed and/or pump-screwed (which sounds awful). Dropping Thoughtseize for Giant Growth or Lotus Petal or whatever maybe could've helped, but Seizing an Echoing Truth from a player's hand before playing pump spells on my Vector Asp seemed like a good idea at the time. That said, I'd like to see a mono-green list. Please post if you have one.
==================Update 1/8/11
Played this deck again last night, I think exactly the same except a couple SB changes. I added a Fulminator Mage for some reason, I think to disrupt Zoo and a D&T deck I saw someone messing around with. But it was another fun night of quick kills mixed with agonizing can't-do-anything moments.
Rd 1 vs white weenie
Bashed through the little dudes in fairly short order. Infect gave him only one shot with Kitchen Finks et al, not that life means anything for this deck.
1-0
Rd 2 vs Affinity
Game 1 was turn 1 Vector Asp. He played an artifact land and 2 ornithopters. On my turn 2 I swung, he chose not to block, I turned on infect, played Rouse, Invigorate, Invigorate, and left him rereading both cards a couple times. Game 2 he got a much quicker start with Thopters, Cranial Plating, DoTV, and an Arcbound Ravager in fairly short order while I had gotten an Asp and a Blight Stinger, but attacking was pointless. He added a Frogmite and a Myr Enforcer, while I timely drew a K Grip to destroy the plating when he attacked. He got a Sword of Light and Shadow on a Thopter. I got an Ichorclaw Myr. Then he got a Jitte, attacked, and killed my Stinger and Asp after he got the charge counters, but luckily not my Myr, which was key due to the Pro Black from the Sword, but he didn't have enough mana to re-equip, anyway. I swung in with the Myr, luckily he blocked with a 2/2 Frogmite rather than a bigger or multiple creatures. After the pump resolved, I played Invigorate, then Berserk, ending up with a 14/7 trampler and the match.
2-0
Rd 3 vs Zoo
Yeah, this went pretty much like I feared. I played an Asp, he played a Loam Lion. I played a Blight Stinger, he Lightning Helixed it. I think I only got 1 attack in the whole match. I sided in Fulminator, but never saw it. He was stuck on 1 red source, and a Thoughtseize showed that he had 1 bolt and 2 Chain Lightnings, so I maybe with some luck could've gotten through game 2, but nah, didn't happen.
2-1
Rd 4 vs some sort of dark Zoo dredge
I had seen this deck between rounds, so I knew it won through Goyfs, Countryside Crusher, and Devastating Dreams. Game 1 I played a Blight Stinger. He played Devastating Dreams for 1, but I had Invigorate to save the Stinger. I played a Rancor on it and swung for 3. Then again the next turn. Then I drew and played a Noble Hierarch and he scooped. Game 2 he mulled to 6, then 5, then conceded. I had a strong hand anyway.
3-1, good for 4th place out of 18ish.
Glad to hear it went well. I've not had the courage to play this at a big tournament yet.
I'm not sure what the Duress should be if anything else. I don't mind Duressing the inevitable spell that they have to help them answer my infector. I mean, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and counter spells all see play so I figured it wouldn't be bad in the main. Probably going to swap 5 fetches out for 3 Overgrown Tomb, a forest and a Swamp. Not sure on SB yet.
Rancor. This deck needs lots and lots of trample effects.
Tru, my list is the same as in post 64, except a couple slots in the side. I changed out Spellbomb and a Duress for Fulminator Mage and a Tranquil Domain. Can't recall my reasoning for the Domain at the moment, though. Counterbalance and such, Jace's Erasure in case I ran into another combo which often have enchantments at the core, and I couldn't find another k-grip.
Sterces48, I think Thoughtseize is the discard of choice here. Getting rid of removal or counter is fine, but if they just drop a goblin or ornithopter or something, that can throw off your whole game plan just as well.
So far in 8 matches I've never played Stonewood Invocation, and usually side them out. I want to try Livewire Lash like what standard tries. It costs the same, effectively, but the cost can be split over 2 turns and the deck is mana light so it works out. The deterrence against targeted removal can make it worth it if it sticks. Plus, you could potentially win without even attacking.
Oh, and I think Pendelhaven will be worth a shot, seeing as I play 11 1/1 creatures. Someone suggested it early in the thread but I forgot about it till now.
i see good things in the future of legacy infect. especially the myr and the gremlin. more 2 cost infects, and one of them can produce mana! not to mention the lifelink on the gremlin, which increases survivability.
i see good things in the future of legacy infect. especially the myr and the gremlin. more 2 cost infects, and one of them can produce mana! not to mention the lifelink on the gremlin, which increases survivability.
All of those creatures are very underwhelming, except for maybe the rats. But at 3cmc I'd rather use the phyrexian crusader which is 1000x better than the rats. We don't need lifelink..we need protection, shroud, and evasion.
It cannot be more than 2 mana, but that being said I'd consider an amazing 3 drop as long as it was only 2B, 1GG, or 2G. Double black is too difficult to achieve in the deck.
So far there is nothing too amazing for us, but the mana myr has the potential to replace necropede which is the worst creature in the deck at the moment.
All of those creatures are very underwhelming, except for maybe the rats. But at 3cmc I'd rather use the phyrexian crusader which is 1000x better than the rats. We don't need lifelink..we need protection, shroud, and evasion.
It cannot be more than 2 mana, but that being said I'd consider an amazing 3 drop as long as it was only 2B, 1GG, or 2G. Double black is too difficult to achieve in the deck.
So far there is nothing too amazing for us, but the mana myr has the potential to replace necropede which is the worst creature in the deck at the moment.
i love the myr, i think the mana it provides (even though its colorless) and the fact that its a 2 drop that doesn't require mana fixing is great. overall however, im just happy that we are getting more 2 drops that do more than just have infect.
also, check this guy out. basically another plague stinger for us. turn one place it, turn 2 place your land and swing, its got flying so all you need are your pumps.
i love the myr, i think the mana it provides (even though its colorless) and the fact that its a 2 drop that doesn't require mana fixing is great. overall however, im just happy that we are getting more 2 drops that do more than just have infect.
also, check this guy out. basically another plague stinger for us. turn one place it, turn 2 place your land and swing, its got flying so all you need are your pumps.
True...I like him as well. He is great vs control decks, but he is mana intensive and the deck is green hungry. In other words I wouldn't play this as more than a 2 of in the deck.
We're in black, why are we not playing Snuff Out to clear the way for an easy swing?! Or removal in general...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
for now, the MBS cards that i believe that will see play on Legacy Infect are:
- Phyrexian Crusader (let's see...almost every single removal in legacy is white or red, he can survive against almost any creature on the format that can block him)
- Plague Myr (cause it can generates mana)
- Inkmoth Nexus (it's basically a colorles plague stinger with haste every turn)
And those are the ones who could see play:
- Virulent Wound (kills hierarch and a few goblin/folks/elf creature while gives a counter).
- Phyrexian Vatmother (i could see someone using this)
- Rot Wolf (for CA, but still, too conditional and bad at 3 mana)
- Blightsteel Colossus (not in a infect deck, but i could see a few decks trying it)
for now, the MBS cards that i believe that will see play on Legacy Infect are:
- Phyrexian Crusader (let's see...almost every single removal in legacy is white or red, he can survive against almost any creature on the format that can block him)
- Plague Myr (cause it can generates mana)
- Inkmoth Nexus (it's basically a colorles plague stinger with haste every turn)
And those are the ones who could see play:
- Virulent Wound (kills hierarch and a few goblin/folks/elf creature while gives a counter).
- Phyrexian Vatmother (i could see someone using this)
- Rot Wolf (for CA, but still, too conditional and bad at 3 mana)
- Blightsteel Colossus (not in a infect deck, but i could see a few decks trying it)
I really REALLY want to make crusader work, but I fear BB and being 3cmc is too much. If the format all of a sudden becomes removal/zoo heavy then it may be possible to accommodate it, but for now I don't think so. It is a combo deck and not really a beatdown deck, so you want to win asap.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
That shortage of mana and lack of black accelerants is also why I'm hesitant to drop in any more overgrown tombs and such. Wasteland is a *****.
Deathtouching tramplers need assign only one damage per blocker. Virulent Swipe is the best option for this - its four power over two turns for one mana, plus deathtouch, which can be highly relevant. If your dudes come out fast enough, you can force him to block an infect with emrakul, whereupon you virulent swipe it and kill emrakul.
I mostly agree with you on the 20/20/20 balance of creatures/pump/mana. My biggest concern with that breakdown is that, comparatively speaking, every other creature-based deck has better bears, and one-drops. Like compare Blight Mamba vs. Gatekeeper of Malakar. Gatekeeper is amazing! Blight Mamba is almost unplayable. Hexmage, Stoneforge Mystic, Tidehollow Sculler..these are just some of the amazing CMC 2 cards that make the Infect creatures look very weak. And then there's Confidant...
I've been considering a mono-black list with more control, and Hatred, but again the Infect creatures are lacking strong 2-for-1 mechanics. I've poked at a Doomsday build which is also interesting, but seems inconsistent, and makes Jace all the more frightening.
I've also thought about a combo-style R/B list that tries to combo out on instant mana, Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal/Spirit Guide, with cantrips/draw to pump/haste and then use Soulshriek to kill...but it seems even more inconsistent. I've been trying to think-out a Red/Green list, but it always ends up as something kind of like Belcher, but worse.
I haven't had too much trouble with Wasteland, but it is always there, waiting for you to get sloppy. I also run 17 lands and I think that is just fine especially with the curve topping out at 3. I have found that 16 creatures is enough, until it's not. Losing one creature to a counterspell/swords/burn can be ok, but if I lose two, I am likely in trouble. Three, and it could be game over.
This is why I'd really like to see 20/24 viable creatures post MBS, or better creatures that let us fetch, while still being CMC =< 3. I think the crusader looks amazing. He'd be the best thing I could Dark Ritual out on turn 1, and I don't think I'd ever be sad to draw him later in the game. Pro-white means no swords against control, and pro-red means he'll eat goblins and dodge burn all day.
I don't think blight mamba is so bad. Actually one of the better creatures in the deck. It can chump ALL DAY.
Hatred is a good card, but it is brutal when countered or if you get low on life for some reason. Can really backfire.
If you like the green list then you should get magic work station and test on there. You can proxy up the deck and see how you like it and if it even works for you. Don't get the berserk until you have thoroughly tested the deck.
Speaking of MWS. I've been testing the deck.
Some of my matches:
TES:
Did fairly well. I think I went 2-1 against a few lists throughout the week. It is basically a race, but we are a bit more consistent as we don't have to sculpt our hand. Any pump + Zerk is mvp here.
Survival:
Rough match, but if you can be fast enough it is a win. Trample over VV and chump them with mamba all day. The U splash is tougher than the W as swords is easier to deal with than control. Ichorclaw and Plague are mvps here.
Burn:
Played a couple of games against burn and it is not as bad of a MU as I though. Avoid fate and vines are MVP and using invigorate to keep dudes alive. Lavamancer is the scariest thing you can see hit the board next to jitte.
Seriously though, the mamba and the asp are just bad, IMO you're better off with cards like Goyf & Nantuko Shade that are intimidating as blockers or offensively; the new knight looks amazing for this, pretty much immune to all removal and helps you swing through many creatures, even this early I can tell its exactly the kind of resilience this deck needs to be competetive.
As someone mentioned earlier, many of the creatures are 1/1 nubs on their own. The better legacy decks are either more consistently faster or are made to handle this kind of fast clock, just simple Daze, bolt, stp/path followed by goyf can really knock you back 2 turns and make it very difficult to win. Tainted strike allows infect decks to utilize better creatures instead of being at the mercy of whatever 1/1 dorks available, my 2cents ^^
GWRUB[EDH] Reaper KingGWRUB
GW[Legacy] BEARS (#1 Threat in America)GW
UR[Legacy] Arcane MeleeUR
Unholy Strength I have gone back-and-forth on. I was actually thinking about moving to enchantment-based pump in the Black version. If I am going to lean more tword the suicide-black style, this makes more sense. I'd keep Invigorate, of course and add Jitte. I may poke at that kind of a build.
Just play Eva green then.
Ya jitte is always a STRONG move especially on MAMBA! It is basically like....hey....give me free counters on jitte each turn.
I lied when I said I'd keep Invigorate, apparently It's amazing in a Berserk-Aggro build, but it dilutes this deck (once again, 'free' still takes up card slots). A green-splash could be viable but I think that trying to make a control-build explosive is a mistake, and vice versa.
4x Ichorclaw Myr
4x Phyrexian Crusader
4x Plague Stinger
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Vendetta
1x Sign in Blood
4x Dark Ritual
19x Swamp
1x Lake of the Dead
Hand of the Praetors goes from 'unplayable' to fairly strong, in this kind of a build. He's not the total badass that Abyssal Persecutor is, but his lord effect is essentially +2/+1, and he is essentially a 6/2. He still has no evasion or protection, but he seems to be the best card for the slot, at least for now.
Phyrexian Arena vs. Dark Confidant is a rough choice. I'm not running any sac-outlets, and the rest of the deck doesn't have any synergy with sacrifice, which is why I arrived at Arena.
Because I have Arena over Bob, I opted for Vendetta, but that could easily be something different. Edict, or what-not.
Ritual could be dropped for something else. The deck doesn't need accel, since it plays the early game hand control, and then starts to lay-down threats. There is hardly a more brutal T1 than Ritual, Duress, Hymn, though, and combined with being able to pump out a threat on T2 or T3 while keeping up disruption I think makes it a viable choice. A T1 ritual will almost always draw a Force of Will. Sure you lost your Ritual, but if you were casting to power out Duress/Hymn, you just got 2-for-1 without having to expend that Duress/Hymn.
A Wasteland + Sinkhole package could work, I have neither.
Lake of the Dead is in there, but not needed. It's Wasteland bait, but if you play Lake and don't get your value out of it when you drop it, I do not believe it was the right play. Bog is an option, but coming into play tapped seems to me a bigger drawback than saccing swamps in this deck, and Bog just begs to be wastelanded without you gaining any benefit.
Sideboard...ahh...maybe something like a 4th Duress, Smother, maybe Sadistic Sacrement, Leyline/Crypt/some GY hate.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Plague Stinger
4 Vector Asp
2 Berserk
4 Dark Ritual
4 Invigorate
2 Rouse
2 Stonewood Invocation
3 Vampire's Bite
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Seal of Strength
2 Rancor
4 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Engineered Plague
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Leyline of the Void
I had been piecing the deck together after work all week, but hadn't settled on a final 75 until it was go time, and I seem to have misplaced a SB card, I think it was a Vexing Shusher. The store I go to has Legacy only on the first friday of the month, and the November one was supplanted by Wizard World, so we hadn't played legacy in 2 months. We get a good range of players, and we get a lot of different people playing a lot of different decks each month, I had no idea who would show, or what would be played, so my deck was pretty single-minded and the SB pretty schizo. I figured THEY would have to worry about ME. Anyway, it felt right.
Memories are a little hazy on the details 3 weeks later, but this is pretty much how it went.
Round 1 vs some sort of budget affinity
I think he was a teenager without a full rack of stuff, but it seemed like it was a poor matchup for him regardless. I won in 7 turns, 4 in game 1 and 3 in game 2. We played another game for fun and his deck chose then to come together, curving up perfectly from Ornithopter to Disciple to Cranial Plating to Master of Etherium and I couldn't do anything. Fortunately, I didn't have to.
1-0
Round 2 vs Goblins
Game 1 I mulliganed to a weak 5 and got overrun.
Game 2 he mulliganed to a weak 5 and got overrun.
Game 3 we both kept 7, he went Lackey-go, I had turn 1 Dark Ritual into Engineered Plague and that was pretty much that.
2-0
Round 3 vs Survival-Vine
Game 1 was close. He countered my first couple creatures, figuring correctly that the best way to keep from being poisoned was to deny me poisonous creatures to begin with. Eventually I stuck a Vector Asp, but couldn't find more land or free pumps fast enough.
Game 2 I sided in 8 or 9 cards. I drew a hand with a Leyline, but no lands. I figured the Leyline would give me time to draw a land, since it was a very good hand otherwise, and I was right. He was a little thrown when I opened with a Leyline and said,"Go" with no other action, but no matter. I did draw a land next turn, and got an Asp out, while he had to wait to draw a creature he could throw into the Void. I hit him a couple times, but again couldn't draw another land or free pump, so I had to commit my one black mana to infect. Eventually he Survivaled up a Trygon Predator. I held it off with a Plague Stinger for a turn, but couldn't kill it, so it got through, blew up the Leyline, and he was able to swarm with Vines again.
Actually, it wasn't ever really a close match. He had been holding counters to prevent pumps, so his clock wouldn't have been much accelerated. Drawing more tools to combat Survival would've been nice, but so would lots of things. Maybe should've mulled there.
2-1
Round 4 vs Helm-Top combo
I think this went 3 games.
Game 1 I poisoned him quickly, so I wasn't really sure what he was doing. I saw a Top, and some Islands, so I figured some sort of Counter-Top, but it was over too quickly.
Game 2 I saw it. He got out Helm of Awakening and 2 Tops with Jace's Erasure, and milled me out.
Game 3 I sided in a ton again, but dang if I didn't see a single Needle or Grip or anything. He had Counterbalance-Top active, so kept me off a lot of things, but I think I got him up to 8 or 9 poison counters before he assembled his combo.
I actually hadn't seen this deck before, and I have a mill-deck fetish, so it was interesting to see. I just wish it hadn't been something to keep me from going 3-1 instead of 2-2. And I wish I had read Helm better. I don't think I realized it affected my spells as well. That might've made a difference, although with nearly everything costing 1-2 mana, I was right in Counterbalance's wheelhouse. Still, how often are two decks paired up against each other where neither cares about doing 20 normal points of damage?
The deck is tons of fun to play. I mean, how many decks can play a 1/1 on turn 1 and win with that critter on turn 2? And that's a fairly achievable plan? However, it fairly folded up like one would expect to countermagic, and I'd be worried about facing a greater variety of aggro like Zoo, where Plagues would have less of an effect.
I had zero prep, as I mentioned, as up till start time I was sifting through my stack of candidate cards, from more robust creatues like Cystbearer to creature removal like Snuff Out (which I wished I had for Trygon Predator) to oft-mentioned Hymn to Tourach or Livewire Lash, to very obscure pump spells and tricks like Glimpse of Nature or Troll Ascetic+Tainted Strike. Perhaps trading out some of the pump and creatures and getting more into maindeck hand disruption would make it operate better, preventing them from having answers to my particular challenges. I ran into zero creature removal, zero burn, zero Storm combo, so this was a very limited test, and it revealed strengths and weaknesses. Not sure I'll play this again, but there's bound to be continued development if/when poison is continued Besieged and the future.
If you are that obsessed with a turn-2 kill... just run more Spirit Guides or Lotus Petals and it's just as consistent as drawing a Vesper Asp.
That MBS B Knight does have me doing a double take... but still hoping against hope for a G 1/1 infect.
While I think the nature of the deck requires going all out to win ASAP, and maybe going mono-colored with more accel is a valid plan, I think you have to trade that goal with the realities of other decks that are more flexible in their plans. The black cards I chose lend themselves to that. In my matches, I was never color-screwed, but just mana-screwed and/or pump-screwed (which sounds awful). Dropping Thoughtseize for Giant Growth or Lotus Petal or whatever maybe could've helped, but Seizing an Echoing Truth from a player's hand before playing pump spells on my Vector Asp seemed like a good idea at the time. That said, I'd like to see a mono-green list. Please post if you have one.
==================Update 1/8/11
Played this deck again last night, I think exactly the same except a couple SB changes. I added a Fulminator Mage for some reason, I think to disrupt Zoo and a D&T deck I saw someone messing around with. But it was another fun night of quick kills mixed with agonizing can't-do-anything moments.
Rd 1 vs white weenie
Bashed through the little dudes in fairly short order. Infect gave him only one shot with Kitchen Finks et al, not that life means anything for this deck.
1-0
Rd 2 vs Affinity
Game 1 was turn 1 Vector Asp. He played an artifact land and 2 ornithopters. On my turn 2 I swung, he chose not to block, I turned on infect, played Rouse, Invigorate, Invigorate, and left him rereading both cards a couple times. Game 2 he got a much quicker start with Thopters, Cranial Plating, DoTV, and an Arcbound Ravager in fairly short order while I had gotten an Asp and a Blight Stinger, but attacking was pointless. He added a Frogmite and a Myr Enforcer, while I timely drew a K Grip to destroy the plating when he attacked. He got a Sword of Light and Shadow on a Thopter. I got an Ichorclaw Myr. Then he got a Jitte, attacked, and killed my Stinger and Asp after he got the charge counters, but luckily not my Myr, which was key due to the Pro Black from the Sword, but he didn't have enough mana to re-equip, anyway. I swung in with the Myr, luckily he blocked with a 2/2 Frogmite rather than a bigger or multiple creatures. After the pump resolved, I played Invigorate, then Berserk, ending up with a 14/7 trampler and the match.
2-0
Rd 3 vs Zoo
Yeah, this went pretty much like I feared. I played an Asp, he played a Loam Lion. I played a Blight Stinger, he Lightning Helixed it. I think I only got 1 attack in the whole match. I sided in Fulminator, but never saw it. He was stuck on 1 red source, and a Thoughtseize showed that he had 1 bolt and 2 Chain Lightnings, so I maybe with some luck could've gotten through game 2, but nah, didn't happen.
2-1
Rd 4 vs some sort of dark Zoo dredge
I had seen this deck between rounds, so I knew it won through Goyfs, Countryside Crusher, and Devastating Dreams. Game 1 I played a Blight Stinger. He played Devastating Dreams for 1, but I had Invigorate to save the Stinger. I played a Rancor on it and swung for 3. Then again the next turn. Then I drew and played a Noble Hierarch and he scooped. Game 2 he mulled to 6, then 5, then conceded. I had a strong hand anyway.
3-1, good for 4th place out of 18ish.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Plague Stinger
4 Necropede
4 Blight Mamba
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Duress
I'm not sure what the Duress should be if anything else. I don't mind Duressing the inevitable spell that they have to help them answer my infector. I mean, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and counter spells all see play so I figured it wouldn't be bad in the main. Probably going to swap 5 fetches out for 3 Overgrown Tomb, a forest and a Swamp. Not sure on SB yet.
Glad to hear it went well. I've not had the courage to play this at a big tournament yet.
What is your list? Sideboard?
Rancor. This deck needs lots and lots of trample effects.
Sterces48, I think Thoughtseize is the discard of choice here. Getting rid of removal or counter is fine, but if they just drop a goblin or ornithopter or something, that can throw off your whole game plan just as well.
So far in 8 matches I've never played Stonewood Invocation, and usually side them out. I want to try Livewire Lash like what standard tries. It costs the same, effectively, but the cost can be split over 2 turns and the deck is mana light so it works out. The deterrence against targeted removal can make it worth it if it sticks. Plus, you could potentially win without even attacking.
Oh, and I think Pendelhaven will be worth a shot, seeing as I play 11 1/1 creatures. Someone suggested it early in the thread but I forgot about it till now.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/84/584/635032493371865949.jpg
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/84/416/635032493327249091.jpg
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/84/405/635032493324909046.jpg
i see good things in the future of legacy infect. especially the myr and the gremlin. more 2 cost infects, and one of them can produce mana! not to mention the lifelink on the gremlin, which increases survivability.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
All of those creatures are very underwhelming, except for maybe the rats. But at 3cmc I'd rather use the phyrexian crusader which is 1000x better than the rats. We don't need lifelink..we need protection, shroud, and evasion.
It cannot be more than 2 mana, but that being said I'd consider an amazing 3 drop as long as it was only 2B, 1GG, or 2G. Double black is too difficult to achieve in the deck.
So far there is nothing too amazing for us, but the mana myr has the potential to replace necropede which is the worst creature in the deck at the moment.
i love the myr, i think the mana it provides (even though its colorless) and the fact that its a 2 drop that doesn't require mana fixing is great. overall however, im just happy that we are getting more 2 drops that do more than just have infect.
also, check this guy out. basically another plague stinger for us. turn one place it, turn 2 place your land and swing, its got flying so all you need are your pumps.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=234317
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
True...I like him as well. He is great vs control decks, but he is mana intensive and the deck is green hungry. In other words I wouldn't play this as more than a 2 of in the deck.
- Phyrexian Crusader (let's see...almost every single removal in legacy is white or red, he can survive against almost any creature on the format that can block him)
- Plague Myr (cause it can generates mana)
- Inkmoth Nexus (it's basically a colorles plague stinger with haste every turn)
And those are the ones who could see play:
- Virulent Wound (kills hierarch and a few goblin/folks/elf creature while gives a counter).
- Phyrexian Vatmother (i could see someone using this)
- Rot Wolf (for CA, but still, too conditional and bad at 3 mana)
- Blightsteel Colossus (not in a infect deck, but i could see a few decks trying it)
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
I really REALLY want to make crusader work, but I fear BB and being 3cmc is too much. If the format all of a sudden becomes removal/zoo heavy then it may be possible to accommodate it, but for now I don't think so. It is a combo deck and not really a beatdown deck, so you want to win asap.