The deck introduced below has not been played at any tournaments (yet) and it has not been substantially tested, but will be played at a small tournament in a few weeks. Cockatrice/small legacy group/solitaire games have suggested that this combo/deck may be viable in today's legacy format. I hope this thread will have constructive discussion geared towards making this deck the best that it can be to be competitive. Please no 'you should play Pox instead' or 'the gate is better, play that' comments as these are not constructive in any way.
Introduction
HelmLine is a combo that has been around for years but there hasn't been much recent discussion or any formal primer. In the past, this combo has done well at tournaments when combined with U control or a mono black control shell. The deck lists generally contained no creatures except for usually four Dark Confidant for card advantage. More recently, other deck lists have been proposed combining the combo with Aggro/Control. For those unfamiliar with the combo, Leyline of the Void is a replacement effect that exiles a card instead that would normally go into your opponent's graveyard. Helm of Obedience combined with Leyline of the Void removes your opponent's library because no card ever goes to your opponent's graveyard. The Leyline of the Void/Helm of Obedience combo is slower than many of the other established combo decks in today's legacy format (e.g., ANT, TES, Hivemind, Painter-Stone, ect.), however with a strong shell that provides card advantage, relentless threats and alternative win-cons, this combo may prove that it's viable in legacy. Additionally, if your meta is filled with a large number of graveyard abusers (e.g., Dredge, Reanimator, Goyf, KotR), a deck that uses Leyline of the Void in the main deck may be a great choice.
Card Descriptions
Main Deck
Leyline of the Void - This is the combo and you need four to give yourself the best chance of having this in your starting hand. Helm of Obedience - This is also part of the combo. There are typically 2-4 of these played but I have found that three gives you the best chance to play this quickly. Four is really too many as you don't need this card in your starting hand. Dark Ritual - You really need four of these because of the 4-mana cost of Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience but a second turn Gatekeeper of Malakir is nice too when playing against StoneBlade. Enlightened Tutor - A necessary evil. Typically 2-3 of these are played and provides a great toolbox when the sideboard becomes useful. Swords to Plowshares - Spot removal is nice at times but you shouldn't get carried away with it. Sometimes this deck wins with the aggro component and you don't want to be giving your opponent more life than you need to. I have found three to work best. Duress - This will be replaced later by Thoughtseize but for now I'm stuck with this. Inquisition of Kozilek - This is a great card because most of your opponent's threats are 3 mana or less but unfortunately will not remove Force of Will. Gatekeeper of Malakir - Great removal and card advantage. This can even remove Progenitus if there are many of those in your meta. Tidehollow Sculler - 2 mana to look at and remove a card from your opponents hand from the game, and a 2/2 creature is great card advantage. Vampire Nighthawk - Something that fly's, give you life and kills anything it comes into contact with, along with a 2/3 body is a very effective card especially against Zoo and goyfs. Tombstalker - A 5/5 flyer for 2 mana is another great card. When combined with Leyline of the Void, the Delve ability is an uncounterable way to reduce the size of goyf's. You can usually play Tombstalker in the first 3-4 turns. I have found three to work best. Wasteland - 3-4 copies works best. I play with three but will probably add a fourth sometime. Marsh Flats/Bloodstained Mire/Verdant Catacombs - 5-6 fetchlands is nice and helps to feed Tombstalker. Scrubland/Godless Shrine - Provides you with the white splash. Plains/Swamp - Must haves with all the Wasteland these days.
Sideboard
Engineered Explosives - In a 2+ color build these are really great to have against cards like Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void and tokens. Pithing Needle - An answer for too many cards to name here. Engineered Plague - For a meta filled with Elves and Goblins. Perish - Another card against Elves, but also decent against Zoo. Wrath of God/Damnation - Great against Elves, Goblins, Zoo, ect. Ghostly Prison - Slows down aggro, such as Zoo. Ensnaring Bridge - After the first few turns this deck will not have many cards in hand making this is a great addition against aggro. Enlightened Tutor - Add to the toolbox or could also be used to excel the combo. Helm of Obedience - I like to have a fourth copy against certain decks. Hymn to Tourach - Here for now and useful against fast combo, such as TES.
Considered Cards
Dark Confidant - Not so much considered. A great card nonetheless, but with three, 8 mana cost and seven, 4 mana cost cards in the main deck, Bob cannot be played unless you have a death wish. Phyrexian Arena - Considered but I'm not sure what could be taken out. Sensei's Divining Top - Considered but again I'm not sure what could be taken out. Perhaps the two Enlightened Tutor, but I think at least three should be played with no way to tutor or fix the draw. Thoughtseize - Considered and will likely replace the Duress soon. Vindicate - Considered but unsure what to take out. Sinkhole - Somewhat considered but Vindicate is so much more versatile and would be considered first. Abyssal Persecutor - Considered and could be a viable replacement for Tombstalker, but I rather pay 2 mana and not have something that needs to be sacked to win the game. Phyrexian Obliterator - Strongly considered but unsure what could be taken out. Umezawa's Jitte - Considered and would well with Vampire Nighthawk but not sure what could be taken out. Dystopia - This would be a sideboard card and may be considered again at a later time.
The deck runs like aggro/control with you dictating the board state with creature removal and the removal of key spells from your opponent's hand. Your ability to lay down threat after threat changes attention away from your combo but also provides another win-con with beaters like Tombstalker and Vampire Nighthawk.
Dredge and Reanimator match-ups are almost buys. Against StoneBlade, you can knock out key cards such as swords or Batterskull or force them to sacrifice Stoneforge Mystic. Against decks like Zoo and Mefolk, I have found play to be trickier but certainly doable especially with a toolbox sideboard.
Match-ups
Will begin to post soon.
Tournament Reports
Will be added within the next month.
This deck is still not complete and I'm looking for ideas and suggestions. The deck plays well in match-ups on Cockatrice and in small legacy groups, suggesting that it's viable in today's current legacy format.
Lands: 21
0 Ancient Tomb <- don't really see point running only 2, so might as well cut em all.
1 Buried Ruin <- I think that this card can go along with all of your artifacts. Someone destroys/counters your pithing needle or helm get it right back into your hand, or just reuse EE. I think its pretty sweet. Might need to test it out though. I think running 1-2 would be pretty useful
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Godless Shrine
4 Scrubland <- no reason to run 3
4 Wasteland <- I think 3 is better than 4 XD, you might have tested out this deck to know that 3 is the magic number so that is your call.
1 Tainted Field <- I like the flavor card. I used to run BW with 1-2 tainted fields.
1 Plains
3 Swamp <- cut one here
Creatures: 13
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Tombstalker <- cut 1 just because if you open up your hand and you have no sorc/instances and you have 1 or 2 of him... he is worthless
3 Vampire Nighthawk <- cut 1 just because he does stall aggro or powerful creatures but he is a creature and can be removed easily
Spells: 22
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Dark Ritual
0 Enlightened Tutor <- cut both because I think other cards are more important
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress / Inquisition of Kozilek one or the other... but not both
4 hymn to tourach 2 for 1 is so much sweeter, plus turn 1 dark ritual into duress/IoK AND hymn... way too good.
Planeswalkers: 4
3 liliana of the veil <- this card is simply amazing and again.. turn 1 dark ritual into liliana... seems solid.
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant <- super good, wins games by her self
ALSO about your Sideboard... it all depends on your meta, I just think that jitte/vindicate might be useful.
I'm not sure how I feel about dark ritual. It's just...well not an amazing card on it's own. If someone lets you resolve it, it's great. But with FoW and it being a bad top deck, it might be work running something else. Though the card does have it's upsides, so if you play an a less control based environment it's up to you.
I also agree, Inquistion or Duress. I personally would pick thoughtseize than duress, but it's up to you.
I agree with Thomas that dark ritual is bad top deck... very bad, however if he plans on adding lilianna I think that the value of dark ritual increases. He has so many different things to do on turn 1-2. Turn 1 playing multiple disrupts, liliana, gatekeeper, nighthawk all seem legit but think about this hand = 2 swamps, dark ritual, leyline, helm, 2 duress. It won't happen every game, but if that hand or something close to it shows up pretty much a Good Game.
Lands: 21
0 Ancient Tomb <- don't really see point running only 2, so might as well cut em all.
1 Buried Ruin <- I think that this card can go along with all of your artifacts. Someone destroys/counters your pithing needle or helm get it right back into your hand, or just reuse EE. I think its pretty sweet. Might need to test it out though. I think running 1-2 would be pretty useful
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Godless Shrine
4 Scrubland <- no reason to run 3
4 Wasteland <- I think 3 is better than 4 XD, you might have tested out this deck to know that 3 is the magic number so that is your call.
1 Tainted Field <- I like the flavor card. I used to run BW with 1-2 tainted fields.
1 Plains
3 Swamp <- cut one here
Creatures: 13
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Tombstalker <- cut 1 just because if you open up your hand and you have no sorc/instances and you have 1 or 2 of him... he is worthless
3 Vampire Nighthawk <- cut 1 just because he does stall aggro or powerful creatures but he is a creature and can be removed easily
Spells: 22
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Dark Ritual
0 Enlightened Tutor <- cut both because I think other cards are more important
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress / Inquisition of Kozilek one or the other... but not both
4 hymn to tourach 2 for 1 is so much sweeter, plus turn 1 dark ritual into duress/IoK AND hymn... way too good.
Planeswalkers: 4
3 liliana of the veil <- this card is simply amazing and again.. turn 1 dark ritual into liliana... seems solid.
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant <- super good, wins games by her self
ALSO about your Sideboard... it all depends on your meta, I just think that jitte/vindicate might be useful.
I like a lot of your suggestions: Ancient Tomb - removed. I was probably going to remove this anyway. Buried Ruin - Hmm, I'm not really sure about this. It looks great, but for now I left it out and in its place added Bojuka Bog. Scrubland - I have no hard reason not to add a 4th here but I liked the idea of having another basic land in its place because of Blood Moon effects. Tainted Field - Thanks. I like the card too in B/W builds. Wasteland - I added the 4th and like it better now. Vampire Nighthawk - I agree. Tombstalker - Added to the sideboard for now to make room for better cards. Vindicate - Too good to not have main decked. Enlightened Tutor - removed. I agree that there are better cards. Duress - removed. Inquisition of Kozilek in its place for now. Hymn to Tourach - I love the card and had them originally there. I added them back in because they're nuts. Dark Ritual - I want to keep these here because it allows for explosive starts and aids with the all the 3 mana costing creatures. Liliana of the Veil - Added. I was thinking of the idea but never committed to putting her in, but if she's out with 3 counters and opponent top-decking, it's gg. Elspeth, Knight-Errant - I don't disagree about the power of this card, but for now I don't have it included.
I think that this deck is shaping into something quite nice. You will have to play test it to see its strengths/weaknesses and what needs to be added/removed. When you take this to a tourney let me know how it went. Also playing Leyline of the Void MB, 1 Bojuka Bog MB and 1 SB seems rather weird. I understand that Leyline can be bounced but I rather have something like second Engineered Plague or Silence SB and another fetch land or plains MB.
I'm liking this combo especially since it's in the B/w color scheme!
Here's a little list I put together. I will definitely test and play this once I have most of these cards. Really just missing Helm's and Thoughtseize! Stoked!
That's a quite a transformation, I think I like it a bit better just because I don't like creatures and it has more threats than just Leyline + Helm combo. Couple of things though, 19 lands... that is pushing it man, if you are committed to running such a low number of lands, I would almost want to turn those wastelands into B/W lands or basics. Because with your opponent wastelanding your lands, your own wasteland will now become so much less useful because either (A) you might not draw another land so you have to keep it... and since it only produces a generic mana it might be completely useless, or (B) you will wasteland your opponents land and unless he is playing a deck like yours where he has a very low land count then he will be better of because his chances of getting another land is greater than yours. I like the Lingering Souls and Bitterblossoms however Innocent Blood seems kinda clunky. The reason I say that is because if you go up against something like goblins and he plays turn 1 Goblin Lackey or you go up against Show and Tell -> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, then sure Innocent Blood seems very good. But besides those 2 decks, I don't see the usefulness really, because aggro decks will be able to get a ton of creatures quickly and the other point is that what if you open up your hand and you have Stoneforge Mystic and Innocent Blood... and you don't draw and token generators, then that card becomes useless. All I am saying is I would either replace those 2 Innocent Bloods with either 2 more lands or something like Diabolic Edict, or other great cards like Doom Blade/Smother/Victim of Night/Go for the Throat/Dismember/Snuff Out/Path To Exile/Vindicate
EDIT: Also, I don't really like the 3 Chrome Mox, specially since you aren't running bobs anymore, but even then, i rather see dark ritual instead just because you can play just about anything on turn 1 and you don't have to sacrifice a card for it, and if you top deck Mox, it's more useless than when you top deck dark ritual.
I agree Ppa0 innocent blood was a spot I was not to sure on. Maybe 2 Sansei's Divining Top orVindicate would be good. The tops for fixing or the vindicates for some added removal. Also the Vindicate's can be nice to imprint a chrome mox with which leads me to a question. Do you think the mana base is that weak with 3 chrome mox being ran? I know we won't get them every game but a first turn land with a chrome really helps. This also allows for the nuts with 1st turn hymn, 1st turn stoneforge, and even a first turn Bitterblossom.
Private Mod Note
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U// Ugr Canadian Thresh B// Junk Control
"I made a lot of playtesting against Blue with a lot of different decks and answers. In the end, I lost. To Island.
How cant anybody see, that this cards powerlevel is way above legacys level. Its even restricted in vintage.
I think that turn one into hymn/stoneforge/bitterblossom is good however you exiled a card because of that so it can have its benefits as well as its drawbacks. It can get you there quicker specially if you drop stoneforge following it up with a turn 2 batterskull. The bad thing about that is that if you don't know what you are playing against or even if you do and you make that play and it gets forced / dazed / spell pierced / spell snared (if you are on the draw obviously) or your fetched equipment gets duressed, then you have just wasted 2 cards for nothing. I think that Chrome Mox should be played in more of an aggro style deck and your deck is sort of trying to do both, be aggro but also be a mid-range control 2 card combo win. It is definitely a unique deck though for sure and I like the many different syn-energies it has. Anyways I am getting sleepy but tomorrow I will post a few different builds I had in mind just to see what you think and/or can play test on magic work station or tcgplayer.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think that Chrome Mox could be good in there just because if you have multiple leylines in your hand and your opponent doesn't have anyway of removing/bouncing it than you could use a leyline on Chrome Mox.
I'm a great fan of recovery so I'd suggest Argivian Find to instantly get Helm or Leyline back... It's cheap and fast and makes the deck more consistent I think.
Greetings Heskatet
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Out of both of those decks this is the one I like a bit more just because its more stable and consistent. I might actually make this deck since I have been thinking about making a B/W discard deck.The other one is just for fun but could potentially be more devastating.
Sideboard, depends on your meta, this is just a suggestion:
1 Leyline of the Void <- extra to help combo get there quicker and vs reanimator / dredge
3 Vindicate <- For players that play leyline of sanctity since the 10 disrupt spells will be useless and/or for getting rid of something nasty on the board
2 Ethersworn Canonist <- help vs combo
3 Leyline of Sanctity <- super good, underused
1 Swords to Plowshares <- aggro match ups
1 Sword of Feast and Famine <- vs BUG/BG/Maverick type decks
1 Sword of Fire and Ice <- vs goblins/merfolk
2 Phyrexian Revolker / Pithing Needle <- obvious
1 Ratchet Bomb <- vs Empty the Warrens and Elf decks
Ppa0 I don't think Emrakul works like that since if it hits the graveyard it gets shuffled back into your library. The first list I like quite a bit it's pretty close to what I had in mind. Welp ordered my Helm's but the Thoughtseizes are going to be annoying to obtain I'll probably end up using Inquistion or Duress for the time being. Once I get them testing will go into effect and I'll post my results.
Edit: correction on the Emrakul comment it does work I had to look it up to be sure.
No problem Fakedylan and I thought you would like the first list as I like it quite a bit myself, and yes in most cases IoK or duress should be just fine but if you ever get a chance to get Thoughtseizes then its even better. As far as the second list goes, I have discovered that combo recently with the help of Patrick Chapin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcG_AxYT10s = Patrick Chapin talks about this with Survival of the Fittest / Loyal Retainers (skip to exactly 3 min into the video). My idea is exactly the same, since Emrakul's text doesn't say you shuffle "Emrakul", it just says you shuffle your library, so in response you cast it to get it into play. One nice thing is that it actually has decent synergy with Liliana of the Veil, Thoughtseize and Raven's Crime. If you get it stuck in your hand just shuffle it away, or if u have a reanimation spell, just discard it reanimate it.
I have had an itch to make some sort of mono black or maybe splash a color or two and make it a new type of reanimator. I have been trying many different variations of it but I can't quite make a deck that I would absolutely love.
So the deck went to a small tournament (~50 people with 4 swiss rounds) and did pretty well. Additional play-testing right before the tournament suggested some change needed to be made. The deck below is what went to the tournament.
I don't have a lot of details, just a quick synopsis of each game.
Match 1 (Metalworker) 0-1
Game 1: Was able to keep up the heat but I think it was the Steel Hellkite that slipped through and ended the game. 0-1
Game 2: Sideboard: Bluff board. I was able to remove most of what was in their hand and keep threats off of the board before combo goes off. 1-1
Game 3: Sideboard: Bluff board. They locked up the game somewhat with Trinisphere before putting down Blightsteel Colossus, which I had no answer. 1 turn away from the combo. 1-2
Game 1: This game went on for maybe 30 minutes. I was able to remove threats in their hand and on the board the whole game. They were also color-screwed by Wasteland giving them a slow start. In the end, Elspeth, Knight-Errant plus Tombstalker for the win. 1-0
Game 2: Sideboard: Bluff board. Another long game going almost up to time. I was again able to remove threats from their hand and board, plus the added color-screw by Wasteland. Tombstalker + Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull for the win. 2-0
Match 4 (Burn) 2-2
Game 1: One word: ugly. Three turns of taking burn to the face means we were going to the next game. 0-1
Game 2: Sideboard: -4 Swords to Plowshares + 3 Liliana of the Veil + 1 Gatekeeper of Malakir. This game was a lot better, and the Burn player mentioned they got a lucky draw at the end to seal the deal. Leyline of the Void was in my opening hand, so the strategy was to try stall as long as possible then combo off. I was able to remove some from their hand and keep their board clean, eventually drawing a Helm of Obedience after 4 or 5 turns but had only 4 mana. They had Sugical Extraction and got lucky with drawing two of them in their opening hand, removing much of what I had against them from the game. 0-2
Final Thoughts
I was happy the way the deck played. The first match against Metalworker was close both games I lost. The Metalworker player was top-decking after a few turns in all games with a hint of frustration. I also think the Metalworker player was confused during the second game, expecting Stoneforge Mystic to come out, but only to see Helm of Obedience remove his library from the game. The match against Dredge went how it was supposed to go - it's fun to watch a Dredge player's face after putting down a game 1, opening hand Leyline of the Void. Priceless. Early play-testing against Affinity scared me, but the changes made to the deck before the tournament undoubtedly put me at a large advantage over Affinity. Burn was, however a very disappointing game. I didn't have a sideboard prepared for it and was really hoping that I would not play against it. Any thoughts on how to better prepare against Burn?
Additional Thoughts
Leyline of the Void was in my first opening hand or in my hand after a mulligan down to 6, approximately 80% of the time. I never had a bad hand after a mulligan (mulligan to 5 once, to 6 a few times). There was only one time that I had a bad draw and that occurred while playing Dredge, second game. I like Liliana of the Veil in the sideboard for any combo match-ups because it can add additional hand disruption after the first few turns - unfortunately it never saw play against Burn. Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Tombstalker win games.
ROFL, I love the Match 2 vs Dredge, Game 1 analysis. Btw good job overall, I honestly would have loved to see leyline of sanctity in SB just because when I play a slower deck or a deck that doesn't have life gain, I tend to run leylines. I think that vs burn it should swing the win % in your favor by a lot. It is also great vs black and combo decks slowing them down or having them have dead cards in hand. I even went up against a jenky deck that was running Orin's chant and Isochron Scepter... thank god I had it in play because he was going to play that on Turn 1, and I didn't have a force in hand, which enabled me to ultimately win the game.
so i'm putting this deck together after some testing because after proxying it up and testing we found it was awesome against a lot of stuff. though i'm not running any creatures i'm running ill gotten gains and along with the helm/leyline combo.
The deck introduced below has not been played at any tournaments (yet) and it has not been substantially tested, but will be played at a small tournament in a few weeks. Cockatrice/small legacy group/solitaire games have suggested that this combo/deck may be viable in today's legacy format. I hope this thread will have constructive discussion geared towards making this deck the best that it can be to be competitive. Please no 'you should play Pox instead' or 'the gate is better, play that' comments as these are not constructive in any way.
Introduction
HelmLine is a combo that has been around for years but there hasn't been much recent discussion or any formal primer. In the past, this combo has done well at tournaments when combined with U control or a mono black control shell. The deck lists generally contained no creatures except for usually four Dark Confidant for card advantage. More recently, other deck lists have been proposed combining the combo with Aggro/Control. For those unfamiliar with the combo, Leyline of the Void is a replacement effect that exiles a card instead that would normally go into your opponent's graveyard. Helm of Obedience combined with Leyline of the Void removes your opponent's library because no card ever goes to your opponent's graveyard. The Leyline of the Void/Helm of Obedience combo is slower than many of the other established combo decks in today's legacy format (e.g., ANT, TES, Hivemind, Painter-Stone, ect.), however with a strong shell that provides card advantage, relentless threats and alternative win-cons, this combo may prove that it's viable in legacy. Additionally, if your meta is filled with a large number of graveyard abusers (e.g., Dredge, Reanimator, Goyf, KotR), a deck that uses Leyline of the Void in the main deck may be a great choice.
Card Descriptions
Main Deck
Leyline of the Void - This is the combo and you need four to give yourself the best chance of having this in your starting hand.
Helm of Obedience - This is also part of the combo. There are typically 2-4 of these played but I have found that three gives you the best chance to play this quickly. Four is really too many as you don't need this card in your starting hand.
Dark Ritual - You really need four of these because of the 4-mana cost of Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience but a second turn Gatekeeper of Malakir is nice too when playing against StoneBlade.
Enlightened Tutor - A necessary evil. Typically 2-3 of these are played and provides a great toolbox when the sideboard becomes useful.
Swords to Plowshares - Spot removal is nice at times but you shouldn't get carried away with it. Sometimes this deck wins with the aggro component and you don't want to be giving your opponent more life than you need to. I have found three to work best.
Duress - This will be replaced later by Thoughtseize but for now I'm stuck with this.
Inquisition of Kozilek - This is a great card because most of your opponent's threats are 3 mana or less but unfortunately will not remove Force of Will.
Gatekeeper of Malakir - Great removal and card advantage. This can even remove Progenitus if there are many of those in your meta.
Tidehollow Sculler - 2 mana to look at and remove a card from your opponents hand from the game, and a 2/2 creature is great card advantage.
Vampire Nighthawk - Something that fly's, give you life and kills anything it comes into contact with, along with a 2/3 body is a very effective card especially against Zoo and goyfs.
Tombstalker - A 5/5 flyer for 2 mana is another great card. When combined with Leyline of the Void, the Delve ability is an uncounterable way to reduce the size of goyf's. You can usually play Tombstalker in the first 3-4 turns. I have found three to work best.
Wasteland - 3-4 copies works best. I play with three but will probably add a fourth sometime.
Marsh Flats/Bloodstained Mire/Verdant Catacombs - 5-6 fetchlands is nice and helps to feed Tombstalker.
Scrubland/Godless Shrine - Provides you with the white splash.
Plains/Swamp - Must haves with all the Wasteland these days.
Sideboard
Engineered Explosives - In a 2+ color build these are really great to have against cards like Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void and tokens.
Pithing Needle - An answer for too many cards to name here.
Engineered Plague - For a meta filled with Elves and Goblins.
Perish - Another card against Elves, but also decent against Zoo.
Wrath of God/Damnation - Great against Elves, Goblins, Zoo, ect.
Ghostly Prison - Slows down aggro, such as Zoo.
Ensnaring Bridge - After the first few turns this deck will not have many cards in hand making this is a great addition against aggro.
Enlightened Tutor - Add to the toolbox or could also be used to excel the combo.
Helm of Obedience - I like to have a fourth copy against certain decks.
Hymn to Tourach - Here for now and useful against fast combo, such as TES.
Considered Cards
Dark Confidant - Not so much considered. A great card nonetheless, but with three, 8 mana cost and seven, 4 mana cost cards in the main deck, Bob cannot be played unless you have a death wish.
Phyrexian Arena - Considered but I'm not sure what could be taken out.
Sensei's Divining Top - Considered but again I'm not sure what could be taken out. Perhaps the two Enlightened Tutor, but I think at least three should be played with no way to tutor or fix the draw.
Thoughtseize - Considered and will likely replace the Duress soon.
Vindicate - Considered but unsure what to take out.
Sinkhole - Somewhat considered but Vindicate is so much more versatile and would be considered first.
Abyssal Persecutor - Considered and could be a viable replacement for Tombstalker, but I rather pay 2 mana and not have something that needs to be sacked to win the game.
Phyrexian Obliterator - Strongly considered but unsure what could be taken out.
Umezawa's Jitte - Considered and would well with Vampire Nighthawk but not sure what could be taken out.
Dystopia - This would be a sideboard card and may be considered again at a later time.
The Deck
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Godless Shrine
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Tainted Field
1 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Tombstalker
4 Vampire Nighthawk
Spells
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Dark Ritual
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Perish
1 Wrath of God
How to Play
The deck runs like aggro/control with you dictating the board state with creature removal and the removal of key spells from your opponent's hand. Your ability to lay down threat after threat changes attention away from your combo but also provides another win-con with beaters like Tombstalker and Vampire Nighthawk.
A pregame Leyline of the Void followed by a first turn Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek that's then followed by a second turn Tidehollow Sculler/Gatekeeper of Malakir will give you ample time to build the remainder of the combo. If Leyline of the Void is not in your starting hand, then you have enough control and creatures to stall or build your own army and win.
Dredge and Reanimator match-ups are almost buys. Against StoneBlade, you can knock out key cards such as swords or Batterskull or force them to sacrifice Stoneforge Mystic. Against decks like Zoo and Mefolk, I have found play to be trickier but certainly doable especially with a toolbox sideboard.
Match-ups
Will begin to post soon.
Tournament Reports
Will be added within the next month.
This deck is still not complete and I'm looking for ideas and suggestions. The deck plays well in match-ups on Cockatrice and in small legacy groups, suggesting that it's viable in today's current legacy format.
Was that it?
Legacy
BUWRGLEDless DredgeGRWUB
RBurnR
BWRotten PebblesWB
BWB/W HelmLineWB
0 Ancient Tomb <- don't really see point running only 2, so might as well cut em all.
1 Buried Ruin <- I think that this card can go along with all of your artifacts. Someone destroys/counters your pithing needle or helm get it right back into your hand, or just reuse EE. I think its pretty sweet. Might need to test it out though. I think running 1-2 would be pretty useful
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Godless Shrine
4 Scrubland <- no reason to run 3
4 Wasteland <- I think 3 is better than 4 XD, you might have tested out this deck to know that 3 is the magic number so that is your call.
1 Tainted Field <- I like the flavor card. I used to run BW with 1-2 tainted fields.
1 Plains
3 Swamp <- cut one here
Creatures: 13
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Tombstalker <- cut 1 just because if you open up your hand and you have no sorc/instances and you have 1 or 2 of him... he is worthless
3 Vampire Nighthawk <- cut 1 just because he does stall aggro or powerful creatures but he is a creature and can be removed easily
Spells: 22
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Dark Ritual
0 Enlightened Tutor <- cut both because I think other cards are more important
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress / Inquisition of Kozilek one or the other... but not both
4 hymn to tourach 2 for 1 is so much sweeter, plus turn 1 dark ritual into duress/IoK AND hymn... way too good.
Planeswalkers: 4
3 liliana of the veil <- this card is simply amazing and again.. turn 1 dark ritual into liliana... seems solid.
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant <- super good, wins games by her self
ALSO about your Sideboard... it all depends on your meta, I just think that jitte/vindicate might be useful.
I also agree, Inquistion or Duress. I personally would pick thoughtseize than duress, but it's up to you.
Legacy:
:symg::symb::symg:Pox:symg::symb::symg:
Edh:
:symg::symw::symu:Angus Mackenzie:symg::symw::symu:
I like a lot of your suggestions:
Ancient Tomb - removed. I was probably going to remove this anyway.
Buried Ruin - Hmm, I'm not really sure about this. It looks great, but for now I left it out and in its place added Bojuka Bog.
Scrubland - I have no hard reason not to add a 4th here but I liked the idea of having another basic land in its place because of Blood Moon effects.
Tainted Field - Thanks. I like the card too in B/W builds.
Wasteland - I added the 4th and like it better now.
Vampire Nighthawk - I agree.
Tombstalker - Added to the sideboard for now to make room for better cards.
Vindicate - Too good to not have main decked.
Enlightened Tutor - removed. I agree that there are better cards.
Duress - removed. Inquisition of Kozilek in its place for now.
Hymn to Tourach - I love the card and had them originally there. I added them back in because they're nuts.
Dark Ritual - I want to keep these here because it allows for explosive starts and aids with the all the 3 mana costing creatures.
Liliana of the Veil - Added. I was thinking of the idea but never committed to putting her in, but if she's out with 3 counters and opponent top-decking, it's gg.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - I don't disagree about the power of this card, but for now I don't have it included.
The deck below includes the changes above.
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Godless Shrine
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Tainted Field
1 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Vampire Nighthawk
Spells
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Dark Ritual
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Tombstalker
1 Perish
1 Wrath of God
Was that it?
Legacy
BUWRGLEDless DredgeGRWUB
RBurnR
BWRotten PebblesWB
BWB/W HelmLineWB
Here's a little list I put together. I will definitely test and play this once I have most of these cards. Really just missing Helm's and Thoughtseize! Stoked!
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Spells : 18 Spells
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lingering Souls
2 Innocent Blood
3 Thoughtseize
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Chrome Mox
4 Bitterblossom
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
Planeswalkers : 3
3 Liliana of the Veil
No sideboard as of yet but I'm excited to see this kind of deck. Tell me what you guy's think about this build.
B// Junk Control
"I made a lot of playtesting against Blue with a lot of different decks and answers. In the end, I lost. To Island.
How cant anybody see, that this cards powerlevel is way above legacys level. Its even restricted in vintage.
Ban it." -Dragofireheart
Edit: sorry, only 3 scrublands in your deck. I am curious as why the godless shrine isn't the 4th though.
WB tokens WB
Modern
WUBRG Dredge WUBRG
EDIT: Also, I don't really like the 3 Chrome Mox, specially since you aren't running bobs anymore, but even then, i rather see dark ritual instead just because you can play just about anything on turn 1 and you don't have to sacrifice a card for it, and if you top deck Mox, it's more useless than when you top deck dark ritual.
B// Junk Control
"I made a lot of playtesting against Blue with a lot of different decks and answers. In the end, I lost. To Island.
How cant anybody see, that this cards powerlevel is way above legacys level. Its even restricted in vintage.
Ban it." -Dragofireheart
EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think that Chrome Mox could be good in there just because if you have multiple leylines in your hand and your opponent doesn't have anyway of removing/bouncing it than you could use a leyline on Chrome Mox.
Greetings Heskatet
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Planeswalkers 5
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Liliana of the Veil
Spells 18
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Helm of Obedience
Enchantments
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Bitterblossom
Lands 19
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Tainted Field
3 Wasteland
Sideboard, depends on your meta, this is just a suggestion:
1 Leyline of the Void <- extra to help combo get there quicker and vs reanimator / dredge
3 Vindicate <- For players that play leyline of sanctity since the 10 disrupt spells will be useless and/or for getting rid of something nasty on the board
2 Ethersworn Canonist <- help vs combo
3 Leyline of Sanctity <- super good, underused
1 Swords to Plowshares <- aggro match ups
1 Sword of Feast and Famine <- vs BUG/BG/Maverick type decks
1 Sword of Fire and Ice <- vs goblins/merfolk
2 Phyrexian Revolker / Pithing Needle <- obvious
1 Ratchet Bomb <- vs Empty the Warrens and Elf decks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Planeswalkers 6
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells 23
1 Raven's Crime
1 Darkblast
3 Entomb
3 Dark Ritual
2 Shallow Grave
2 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Leyline of the Void
Artifacts 4
1 Batterskull
3 Helm of Obedience
Lands 20
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Tainted Field
3 Wasteland
Sideboard, again, depends on your meta, this is just a suggestion, this one requires more anti-graveyard hate, all are pretty self explanatory:
4 Vindicate
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Innocent Blood
3 Silence
2 Oblivion Ring
Edit: correction on the Emrakul comment it does work I had to look it up to be sure.
B// Junk Control
"I made a lot of playtesting against Blue with a lot of different decks and answers. In the end, I lost. To Island.
How cant anybody see, that this cards powerlevel is way above legacys level. Its even restricted in vintage.
Ban it." -Dragofireheart
I have had an itch to make some sort of mono black or maybe splash a color or two and make it a new type of reanimator. I have been trying many different variations of it but I can't quite make a deck that I would absolutely love.
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Godless Shrine
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Tainted Field
2 Plains
6 Swamp
Creatures
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tombstalker
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Pithing Needle
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Perish
1 Sword of Body and Mind
Tournament Report
I don't have a lot of details, just a quick synopsis of each game.
Match 1 (Metalworker) 0-1
Game 1: Was able to keep up the heat but I think it was the Steel Hellkite that slipped through and ended the game. 0-1
Game 2: Sideboard: Bluff board. I was able to remove most of what was in their hand and keep threats off of the board before combo goes off. 1-1
Game 3: Sideboard: Bluff board. They locked up the game somewhat with Trinisphere before putting down Blightsteel Colossus, which I had no answer. 1 turn away from the combo. 1-2
Match 2 (Dredge) 1-1
Game 1: Leyline of the Void in my opening hand. On to game 2. 1-0
Game 2: Sideboard: -4 Hymn to Tourach + 3 Engineered Explosives + 1 Tidehollow Sculler. No Leyline of the Void after mulligan down to 5. They didn't get a good draw and the game went for a while with some disruption to their hand, but I eventually lost to a hoard of zombies. 1-1
Game 3: Sideboard: Bluff board. Leyline of the Void in my opening hand again, but that was bounced early by Chain of Vapor. They had another Chain of Vapor in their hand that was eaten by my Tidehollow Sculler, allowing me to replay Leyline of the Void and combo for the win. 2-1
Match 3 (Affinity) 2-1
Game 1: This game went on for maybe 30 minutes. I was able to remove threats in their hand and on the board the whole game. They were also color-screwed by Wasteland giving them a slow start. In the end, Elspeth, Knight-Errant plus Tombstalker for the win. 1-0
Game 2: Sideboard: Bluff board. Another long game going almost up to time. I was again able to remove threats from their hand and board, plus the added color-screw by Wasteland. Tombstalker + Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull for the win. 2-0
Match 4 (Burn) 2-2
Game 1: One word: ugly. Three turns of taking burn to the face means we were going to the next game. 0-1
Game 2: Sideboard: -4 Swords to Plowshares + 3 Liliana of the Veil + 1 Gatekeeper of Malakir. This game was a lot better, and the Burn player mentioned they got a lucky draw at the end to seal the deal. Leyline of the Void was in my opening hand, so the strategy was to try stall as long as possible then combo off. I was able to remove some from their hand and keep their board clean, eventually drawing a Helm of Obedience after 4 or 5 turns but had only 4 mana. They had Sugical Extraction and got lucky with drawing two of them in their opening hand, removing much of what I had against them from the game. 0-2
Final Thoughts
I was happy the way the deck played. The first match against Metalworker was close both games I lost. The Metalworker player was top-decking after a few turns in all games with a hint of frustration. I also think the Metalworker player was confused during the second game, expecting Stoneforge Mystic to come out, but only to see Helm of Obedience remove his library from the game. The match against Dredge went how it was supposed to go - it's fun to watch a Dredge player's face after putting down a game 1, opening hand Leyline of the Void. Priceless. Early play-testing against Affinity scared me, but the changes made to the deck before the tournament undoubtedly put me at a large advantage over Affinity. Burn was, however a very disappointing game. I didn't have a sideboard prepared for it and was really hoping that I would not play against it. Any thoughts on how to better prepare against Burn?
Additional Thoughts
Leyline of the Void was in my first opening hand or in my hand after a mulligan down to 6, approximately 80% of the time. I never had a bad hand after a mulligan (mulligan to 5 once, to 6 a few times). There was only one time that I had a bad draw and that occurred while playing Dredge, second game. I like Liliana of the Veil in the sideboard for any combo match-ups because it can add additional hand disruption after the first few turns - unfortunately it never saw play against Burn. Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Tombstalker win games.
Was that it?
Legacy
BUWRGLEDless DredgeGRWUB
RBurnR
BWRotten PebblesWB
BWB/W HelmLineWB
4 leyline of the void
2 leyline of sanctity
1 banishing light
1 opalescence
4 helm of obedience
3 ill-gotten gains
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
1 chrome mox
3 enlightened tutor
1 sensei's devining top
2 gitaxian probe
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
3 lingering souls
2 scrubland
1 gemstone mine
1 plains
4 swamp
4 marsh flats
1 blood stained mire
4 ancient tomb
2 crystal veins
1 boseju
1 karakas
super rough list just has the ideas i was thinking about in 1 deck not really a finished product