This thread is technically part 2 of this. It was a vintage deck, but my area is mainly playing legacy, so I had to make a switch.
It is a very fast deck and not heavily manda-dependant, so it only caries 16 lands with 8 alternative mana sources. I'm never mana screwed with it, and it flows well. I usually start the game by attacking the opponent's hand, disrupting most things he tries to throw early at me. Bob will provide great card advantage and even deal some damage, netting you in the process one of the game winners: Neggy, Nyx or Percy. The greaves work great with them, giving the crits shroud and haste for 0 equip cost (it's great for Neggy against burn, needless to say). In the end a flashbacked therapy or blood or rite will kill Percy, winning you the game.
The opening hand you're looking for is anything with a swamp and petal or ritual, since having two of these will make you able to cast 2 or even 3 of the card discarding spells, or maybe a first turn Percy and then start disrupting.
I used to run 4 Dream Salvages in this, because they would often be Ancestral Recalls after a therapy, but I dropped them to Bob. I probably made the good choice, even though I hate losing life.
So, here's the decklist:
Spells:
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Sign in Blood
I love the Gatekeeper's and Shriekmaw's, Shriekmaw can be ditched for the evoke cost giving you targeted removal, or if you happen to pull him mid-late game you can get a decent body cast, along with a targeted kill. The Gatekeepers for 3 give you a 2/2 and force a sacrifice, either your persy, or an opponents threat. Ive done a lot of playtesting and found this setup to be pretty solid. I started with the Confidant's but after adding the Shriekmaw's and Stalker its just too brutal. If you do run Confidant's, running Nighthawks is incredible, if you keep your mana curve down, your generally outgaining your loss. Ive been playing with Sign in Blood lately, 2 life 2 mana isn't all bad for 2 cards, it can also be used as a finisher if your looking to topdeck like a champ late game and just cant seem to finish them off. Catacombs are purely to help feed Tombstalker, really not needed, especially if your not running him.
It seems to me that your deck has a lot of gas in the first few turns only to wither after. Your gameplan is ultra dedicated on taking an early softlock and beat it from there. I see the beauty of it but you don't have many chances once you hit midgame? Maybe it´s the way you want to play the deck?
You might consider more beaters? At least upping to 12-14 to have a more consistent turn 2-3 threat drops. Also, running 15 discard cards feels like 3 too many.
Stalkers and Raiders have great synergies together, and yeah Gathan Raiders are red but you will play them out for 3 colorless. Drop Bob again and pick up Dream Salvage or Night's Whispers for the sake of the Tombstalker. In order to add some continuation to your softlock, Sinkhole could be useful, later on when the card is dead you can toss it via Gathan Raider to feed a stalker. Having more life to lose, if you drop bob for Dream salvage, you can run 6 or so fetchlands to feed stalkers even more. I like the sacrifice a creature for damage and life card, maybe running them as 4ofs is good? Wastelands are imo an autoinclude in every mono/dual color deck. The manabase can easily support them. Try them out instead of Lotus Petal.
Suggestions for SB
4 Extirpate, with you discard package this card can do heavy damage.
Necroplasm, somewhat slower than the Disk but might be better against aggrodecks such as goblins, merfolks
Dystopia, my favourite SB card, works wonders against White/Green decks and lets you comit to your early game control of the battlefield.
Well, it starts very fast and disrupts everything, but one or two bad draws or the opponent getting some key draws and dropping them immediately can ruin my day.
In my latest playtesting I was usually going mulligan until I got a Percy or Nyx or Neggy in my opening hand, so I think adding 2 or 4 beaters will benefit the deck. I'm just not sure what to drop. I'll keep the Lotus Petals because, well, it really helps me. A turn one Percy will scare anyone any aggro deck without removal, and playing Duress or Thoutghtseize before to remove removal (lol) can literally win a game if followed by a turn two Percy, and the Petal helps me achieve that kind of early game speed.
And the Petal could also feed the Tombstalker, which was a great suggestion by you. By the way, that's a problem: I really want to play four copies of it, but the Confidant could kill me by fetching one.
I'll try playing the 'Stalker with Dream Salvage to see how it goes, but I doubt it will work, because the Confidant is such a great drawing engine that usually spells game over after having one or two on the table. It will eat some of my life to keep the early game disruption going on forever, and I really couldn't ask for more.
Fetchlands are a great idea for thining the deck. I'd like to add 16 of them, to fetch 4 swamps, to be sincere. But I'll probably use 8 if I drop Bob for the 'Stalkers.
I'll keep the Neggys instead of those Raiders because I usually use all cards in my hand. Having to discard one to play a creature would really hurt my flow.
I usually like to play Sinkholes and Wastelands, but I just don't see what to drop. And then again, it feels out of "theme": this deck discards early and often and then, one or two turns later, drops a huge threat that will massacre the opponent. Killing land during this time could hurt my timing, I guess. But I'll try.
Extirpate is a card that, when I've run, I didn't like it. Never did me that good, somehow. So I'm a little shortsighted with it.
Dystopia is a great card, I'll add it to the SB, but I'll stick with the Disk because, well, it kills enchants and arts. And I'm old school
Spells:
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Sign in Blood
I love the Gatekeeper's and Shriekmaw's, Shriekmaw can be ditched for the evoke cost giving you targeted removal, or if you happen to pull him mid-late game you can get a decent body cast, along with a targeted kill. The Gatekeepers for 3 give you a 2/2 and force a sacrifice, either your persy, or an opponents threat. Ive done a lot of playtesting and found this setup to be pretty solid. I started with the Confidant's but after adding the Shriekmaw's and Stalker its just too brutal. If you do run Confidant's, running Nighthawks is incredible, if you keep your mana curve down, your generally outgaining your loss. Ive been playing with Sign in Blood lately, 2 life 2 mana isn't all bad for 2 cards, it can also be used as a finisher if your looking to topdeck like a champ late game and just cant seem to finish them off. Catacombs are purely to help feed Tombstalker, really not needed, especially if your not running him.
Your deck looks very good, but it is way more beatdown-oriented than mine.
About Sign in Blood, don't you think Bob works better for me? I mean, since you run 'Stalkers, Sign is better, but Bob seems better for my build. And, as I said above, Bob keeps my early game rythim going, and that's great. Since you're experienced with this build, wouldn't you think dropping the 'Stalker to add Bob? Because it does wonders for me...
Sorry for the short response, but I already talked about most topics in the above quote
Anyway, I'm going to playtest with all these possibilities and then I'll post a new version soon
You do not want to run 4 Swamps and 16 fetches. You will get Ghost Quartered or Rishadan Ported out of the game. I wouldn't even mention it, but you said you were sincere. it's a bad plan.
I like the white splash for Swords to Plowshares and Gerrard's Verdict. It's something to consider.
// Spells
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [VI] Funeral Charm
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [AQ] The Rack
4 [GP] Cry of Contrition
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
So far i've been trying to make this kind of deck work so i will list the cards i put in my latest version and explain how it all work together.
Chrome mox: in this scenario a better accelerator than dark ritual, not more than 3 though.
Wasteland: a must
Urborg: helps to bypass the you draw too much colorless mana lands and make swamps so if needed you can get swampwalk with funeral charm
Dark confidant: He is a must because it is the best card to get card advantage at a small price.
Bloodghast: sinergy with cabal therapy, smallpox, innocent blood and its a constant pain in the ass,
Abyssal persecutor: big bad MOFO with practically no drawbacks.
Hymn to tourach: No brainer
Cabal therapy: Awesome because it lets you discard more than one card, if you are lucky guessing or you do your homework on your meta you can get a card advantage even greater than with hymn.
The Rack: My fave way of killing with this archetype.
Funeral charm: fast, reliable, instant discard, noble hierarch killer, and sometimes an evasion or boost enabler, whats not to love?
Cry of contrition: if played correctly you get a 2 for 1 constantly.
Smallpox: It does so much, helps cry of contrition, helps the land kill and helps if you play abyssal persecutor or if you need to get rid of confidant.
Innocent blood: read up.
Now for the cards that didnt made the cut.
Duress, Inquisition of Kozileck and all those pinpoint discard like thoughtseize:
These are no good i mean yeah they are great but you most likely want to discard a lot of cards not an specific one.
These would only be needed in a late game scenario when you face a wall and cannot hit your opponent, this meaning you dont have a rack or you didnt discarded his whole hand properly, if that is what happenned you are dead anyway so.. probably a couple on the SB i dunno.
Jitte: this is something that may be awesome but i just dont kow what to take out for it, and theres also the thing that i dont really have that many critters to fully exploit it.
Tombstalker: call me crazy but Dark Confidant+Tombstalker is a no no, besides with 3 sacrifice outlets persecutor is better in everyway.
Hypnotic Specter: well it is a fact that if you dont run dark ritual, you dont run hippie so...
What do you guys think.. ill be waiting for some input..
or maybe i should wite a primer over this?..
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Standard RUGRUG Ramp
Modern GRTurbo Moon,RRRSkred Red
Legacy BBBNightmare Effect,GUWEnchantress,UWBCephalid Breakfast
Usually this kind of deck build (recently very sucessful in the Team America build) is dedicated to creata a softlock and early board advantage to then drop a beater and swing for the win while maintaining that lock.
the usual strategy to enforce this kind of a gameplan in mono B is ti discard at start and then to follow up with land denial. Most decks likes to have a 3 land curve, if you can keep them low enough until you drop your first fatty you'd prolly be home safe. The disadvantage with too many discard cards is that they could wind up as dead cards if you dont put up enough "umph" in early game. Thus running 4 Wasteland and 4 Sinkhole is preferred by many. Mind that Sinkhole was the weakest link in the UBG Team America list.
Stalker is a great beater but sucks together with Bob, which is the best draw engine of black. You can go around this either by taking your chances (as I like to do) or play with the Top (but that takes slots you dont want to give).
I have a similar deck idea (it's posted here under the line "blood in blood out , the smallpox deck). Where I chose to skip heavy beaters in advantage for using bob and smallpox instead of sinkhole and is more oriented to kill in midgame than earlygame. The idea is the same as yours though.
The reason why I think Lotus Petal should give way for Wasteland is that wasteland feeds Stalker just aswell, and even better in a deck that plays duals, (if you got 4 cards in GY and no wastetarget on opponent´s side just blow up another of your lands) aswell as adding to your control elements. Lotus Petal gives you speed but I say 4 Dark Rituals are enough enabling you to play the dreaded Ritual>Thoughtsieze>Sinkhole on your turn one while on the draw. A turn one Persecutor is a beater but by no means a control element, you have no defense for him other than the speed. Negators are good but they are easily hated in Legacy, I'd say a call of taste there.
Here is a suggestion for a Bobstalker build
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
10 Swamp
1 Urborg tomb of yawgmoth
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Sinkhole
5 Ghastly Demise, Innocent Blood, that critter killer life gain card, Smother, Diabolic Edict or any combo of these
You make a good point. I'm already saving some money to get me 4 Sinkholes. I'll use them, they're great. I mean, unless I do what I say I might do later on in this post
However, I'll still keep the 'Stalker out of my decks because of Bob. It is my favorite card since Necro' came out, and that's saying a lot
You do not want to run 4 Swamps and 16 fetches. You will get Ghost Quartered or Rishadan Ported out of the game. I wouldn't even mention it, but you said you were sincere. it's a bad plan.
I like the white splash for Swords to Plowshares and Gerrard's Verdict. It's something to consider.
That's true. Maybe I wasn't being that sincere
I was thinking about adding white for quite some time now... It will probably make the "Attempt at monoblack turbo discard" title a little futile, but it's still worth it. STP and Verdict would really help, but I also like Vindicate and even Death Grasp. Desolation Angel used to be great in standard, but I won't run it in legacy, I guess.
// Spells
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [VI] Funeral Charm
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [AQ] The Rack
4 [GP] Cry of Contrition
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
So far i've been trying to make this kind of deck work so i will list the cards i put in my latest version and explain how it all work together.
Chrome mox: in this scenario a better accelerator than dark ritual, not more than 3 though.
Wasteland: a must
Urborg: helps to bypass the you draw too much colorless mana lands and make swamps so if needed you can get swampwalk with funeral charm
Dark confidant: He is a must because it is the best card to get card advantage at a small price.
Bloodghast: sinergy with cabal therapy, smallpox, innocent blood and its a constant pain in the ass,
Abyssal persecutor: big bad MOFO with practically no drawbacks.
Hymn to tourach: No brainer
Cabal therapy: Awesome because it lets you discard more than one card, if you are lucky guessing or you do your homework on your meta you can get a card advantage even greater than with hymn.
The Rack: My fave way of killing with this archetype.
Funeral charm: fast, reliable, instant discard, noble hierarch killer, and sometimes an evasion or boost enabler, whats not to love?
Cry of contrition: if played correctly you get a 2 for 1 constantly.
Smallpox: It does so much, helps cry of contrition, helps the land kill and helps if you play abyssal persecutor or if you need to get rid of confidant.
Innocent blood: read up.
Now for the cards that didnt made the cut.
Duress, Inquisition of Kozileck and all those pinpoint discard like thoughtseize:
These are no good i mean yeah they are great but you most likely want to discard a lot of cards not an specific one.
These would only be needed in a late game scenario when you face a wall and cannot hit your opponent, this meaning you dont have a rack or you didnt discarded his whole hand properly, if that is what happenned you are dead anyway so.. probably a couple on the SB i dunno.
Jitte: this is something that may be awesome but i just dont kow what to take out for it, and theres also the thing that i dont really have that many critters to fully exploit it.
Tombstalker: call me crazy but Dark Confidant+Tombstalker is a no no, besides with 3 sacrifice outlets persecutor is better in everyway.
Hypnotic Specter: well it is a fact that if you dont run dark ritual, you dont run hippie so...
What do you guys think.. ill be waiting for some input..
or maybe i should wite a primer over this?..
I read your post and liked your points, so I tried this new idea of not using cards that only discard one card (Thoughtseize, Duress, etc), and I noticed it worked better without them. Card drawing wasn't such a need to keep the deck running, and an opening hand without Dream Salvage or Bob didn't instantly spell doom for me like it did before.
So, thanks to all the great input I've been receiving from you, I made a new version of the deck. It is still being playtested, and it surely has flaws, and it isn't monoblack anymore, but I think it can be better than the earlier version.
Here's the new list:
I splashed white for STP (great with Percy and Neggie), Verdict and a couple of Vindicates and Death Grasps, but I ended up keeping only STP in. The white card that has helped me the most, however, is a late add: 'Geddon. I usually get on the lead with all the early discard, and cleaning all lands by turn 4 and on can really win me a game after one of the big guys hits the board. I'm just not sure yet if I should use 3 or 4 of them. I'm also adding Zuran Orb to abuse the advantage and to make life easier with Bob - and also to, with multiple Grids, give non-vital perms to sac for Neggie. I'm not so sure if that's a great choice, but I'll try it.
I also took the Rituals out, and haven't missed them. Sure, my turn one's aren't as explosive anymore, but the middle-late game is more consistant. And of course, having 11 nonblack cards really hurt the Ritual's value. The bad thing is Percy now is only a turn 3-4 drop, and that hurts. So what you guys think? Should I put the Rituals back in? Should I run with 4 Neggies and 2 Percys?
A card I added that has done wonders so far is the Grid. It will protect my Neggies from early burn (and I'd love to run 4 Neggies now, but I'm not sure what to take off) and keep 'Geddon, Percy and every other important spell out of blue-counter-control's way, what's really great. I took out every instant not named "Swords to Plowshares" to make it work even better (the Salvages don't really count as instants), and I haven't missed them so far.
A problem, of course, is that the deck now holds 61 cards (63 if I take the Neggies up to 4 as I wish), so that's too much. What should I take off to go back to 60?
So, once and again, the deck looks a lot different and needs help
Thanks a lot and please keep all the great feedback coming!
Hey man, well as far as i can see that is just a whole other deck hahaha..
I like the idea of the armaggedons, but it would be good if you could exploit them a bit more, and since you wont get any really good advantage by discarding the whole hand you could try precission discard again.
The Pikula build is really good at that, consider.
Tidehollow sculler
Flagstones of trokair
Smallpox
Tangle wire
Mindslicer
Just throwing ideas here, but i really think that if you are splashing white, there are cards that are auto includes, and those are Gerrards verdict, STP and Vindicate.
Keep working on it.. I will try to make one with Red splashed just cause blightning is soooo goood.
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currently playing
Standard RUGRUG Ramp
Modern GRTurbo Moon,RRRSkred Red
Legacy BBBNightmare Effect,GUWEnchantress,UWBCephalid Breakfast
Hey man, well as far as i can see that is just a whole other deck hahaha..
I like the idea of the armaggedons, but it would be good if you could exploit them a bit more, and since you wont get any really good advantage by discarding the whole hand you could try precission discard again.
The Pikula build is really good at that, consider.
Tidehollow sculler
Flagstones of trokair
Smallpox
Tangle wire
Mindslicer
Just throwing ideas here, but i really think that if you are splashing white, there are cards that are auto includes, and those are Gerrards verdict, STP and Vindicate.
Keep working on it.. I will try to make one with Red splashed just cause blightning is soooo goood.
You're completely right. This deck lost its identity with that last modification, and splashing a second color is something I'll probably never do to it again. I didn't like it, it didn't work very well, so I'm back to basics.
The only new idea, really, is to add library removal in the form of Extirpate and Haunting Echoes. They have worked very well so far, removing threats before they appear.
'Precision discard', as you call them, works great with the new library disruption, and I've even seen one or two opponents conced after a turn one Ritual played Duress+Therapy and then I extirpated their game winner. The Echoes aren't that useful or show up that much, and sometimes hurt me badly with Bob, but I'm still keeping two copies. I tried to go with one, but then kinda missed it sometimes. It can be a game winner, really. What you guys think? Should I run just one, so that it sometimes shows up?
The biggest enemies of this deck, so far, have been the eventual turn one leylines - specially of the Void and Sanctity. So the return of the Disk has made me able to kill those while giving me better board control and also the ability to play multiple Percys at once and not have to worry how to get rid of them.
As the deck is right now, it holds 62 cards. I was thinking of taking the Echoes out altogether or maybe go down to 3 Percys and/or Bobs, but that just looks silly.
Obliterator is a great addition to black, and he can really change the tide of a game all by his own. I just wanted to say this out loud.
Surgical Extraction adds to Extirpate. At first I switched them, but having both of them in the deck is a great thing. They permanently remove up to 8 threats from your opponent's strategy for minimal cost, and no deck can still win after having that many cards exiled. When I only had 4 Extirpates I had to be very careful with what to target, but right now I can gamble a lot more and still get it right because of all the copies. Ally them with your early discard, or cast them as soon as your opponent used a card you think is important.
Every time I play an Edict I can't remember why I took them out in the first place. They can play defense, offense and remove an Percy for the win. It's just crazy.
The disruption is still great, specially early game. The extra library destruction has added another dimension to the deck, and made it a lot more consistent.
The bad:
Playtested for a while with 4 Hunted Horrors with 2 Mutilates and 2 Forced Marches. Felt good for a while, but in the end it was a two carded BBBBB or even 2BBBB 7/7 trampler that cost me 3 life, so I dropped it. Still, back then I had 12 beaters and could afford to be more aggro, but right now with only 8 I play a little more early game disruption instead of beatdown. I really want to add 2 or 4 more beaters to make it more aggressive, but I'm not sure what to add. A burn heavy meta has made me wary of using Phyrexian Negator, small blockers getting non-tramplers make me wary of investing too much life into Phyrexian Scuta or Grinning Demon. Right now the deck just isn't packing the punch I'd desire.
Took all the Disks out, got all back in, got one Disk out, still miss it sometimes. Not very often, but when I do, it's usually a loss. The best thing about them is blowing up a combo that just got ready or getting rid of enchantments or Percy, however getting them into play actually slows the deck down, coming into play tapped too. I too often keep them in my hand wishing they were another beefy creature or discard spell. I'm completely lost on this one. Maybe I'll add a beater and go with sideboarded Disks.
The ugly:
Taking Bob out was one of the toughest decisions I ever made during my deck building life... Still, with Obli and Percy running at 4 mana, Bob was hurting me too much, too often. So he had to go. Phyrexian Arena took its place, being B more expensive, but also being harder to remove. The deck lost a beat, but got a lot safer, and I'm going with consistency.
I tried to go with Dimir House Guard for a while. It was an uncounterable creature tutor for 1BB, but too often I had dead cards in my hand, and an useless late game draw can mean game over, so I dropped them and got my Disks back (because, as stated above, I was really missing them). I might try Beseech the Queen sometime, but not now because I'm not sure what to remove.
And that would be it. I still have to playtest this new version a lot and see how to sideboard against the proven winning decks, but so far it has been good enough to feel like an upgrade.
While I like the whole idea of the deck, it is completely different from mine and it features too many cards I don't have and would be financially hard-pressed to get. But thanks for the tip, it felt good knowing another black control deck and reading it in portuguese
I playtested more and went a little towards a board removal The Gate-ish look, but still leaning heavily towards discard.
Here's the new decklist with a troublesome 64 cards:
The biggest changes are the awesome Liliana of the Veil that saved me from the pain that Leyline of Sanctity is to me, Go for the Throat that can remove threats to get Extirpated and Surgical Extractioned and also get rid of Percy, and even more board removal and a bit more of a beatstick in the form of Gatekeeper of Malakir. I've been toying with Runechanter's Pike because my graveyard is usually full of instants and sorceries to no benefit, so people usually take their graveyard hate out against me, so it can really buff Percy and Obly to unholy amounts of power while adding another dimension to the deck.
And the first sketch of a sideboard, that hasn't been tested yet in any degree:
16 lands and need 4 mana...thats bad, did you playtest it?
if your opponent plays a rishadan or a single land destruction you'll be messed up
you better playtest with 20 lands and them cut/add as you need
Totally true.
I didn't playtest against land destruction or the Port, but I'm taking it up to 20 because it'd be game over if I did.
Nicely noticed, I made many changes to the deck without minding the mana curve. What a stupid mistake.
Thanks for pointing it out.
Hi there, i've been playing discard since hipnotic specter got printed. The main thing that amazed me is the lack of liliana of the veil.
Phyrexian negator is really outclassed by phyrexian obliterator. with rituel, a 2nd turn obliterator is often game winning.
That's true, but the version you read of the deck (probably the one on the first post) was made before those cards came out. They've been added to the latest version, as you correctly suggested.
So, after fixing the mana curve problem, here's the newest version:
The deck stands at 62 cards but, besides going to 60, I'm thinking about replacing Gatekeeper of Malakir. His ability is great, but Liliana of the Veil offers the same and the deck doesn't lack other creature removal. I want to add an early beatstick to pack more of a punch before Percy or Obly hit the table, and I'm torn between: Bitterblossom Bloodghast Nantuko Shade Oona's Prowler Dauthi Slayer Geralf's Messenger Vampire Nighthawk
It is a very fast deck and not heavily manda-dependant, so it only caries 16 lands with 8 alternative mana sources. I'm never mana screwed with it, and it flows well. I usually start the game by attacking the opponent's hand, disrupting most things he tries to throw early at me. Bob will provide great card advantage and even deal some damage, netting you in the process one of the game winners: Neggy, Nyx or Percy. The greaves work great with them, giving the crits shroud and haste for 0 equip cost (it's great for Neggy against burn, needless to say). In the end a flashbacked therapy or blood or rite will kill Percy, winning you the game.
The opening hand you're looking for is anything with a swamp and petal or ritual, since having two of these will make you able to cast 2 or even 3 of the card discarding spells, or maybe a first turn Percy and then start disrupting.
I used to run 4 Dream Salvages in this, because they would often be Ancestral Recalls after a therapy, but I dropped them to Bob. I probably made the good choice, even though I hate losing life.
So, here's the decklist:
Maindeck
4 Lotus Petal
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Rite of Consumption
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Nyxathid
4 Abyssal Persecutor
Sideboard
2 Null Rod
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Nyxathid
All help is welcome, thanks a lot for all the input!
Land:
4x Verdant Catacombs
16x Swamp
Creatures:
4x Gatekeeper of Malikar
4x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Shriekmaw
4x Tombstalker
Spells:
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Sign in Blood
I love the Gatekeeper's and Shriekmaw's, Shriekmaw can be ditched for the evoke cost giving you targeted removal, or if you happen to pull him mid-late game you can get a decent body cast, along with a targeted kill. The Gatekeepers for 3 give you a 2/2 and force a sacrifice, either your persy, or an opponents threat. Ive done a lot of playtesting and found this setup to be pretty solid. I started with the Confidant's but after adding the Shriekmaw's and Stalker its just too brutal. If you do run Confidant's, running Nighthawks is incredible, if you keep your mana curve down, your generally outgaining your loss. Ive been playing with Sign in Blood lately, 2 life 2 mana isn't all bad for 2 cards, it can also be used as a finisher if your looking to topdeck like a champ late game and just cant seem to finish them off. Catacombs are purely to help feed Tombstalker, really not needed, especially if your not running him.
Well, it starts very fast and disrupts everything, but one or two bad draws or the opponent getting some key draws and dropping them immediately can ruin my day.
In my latest playtesting I was usually going mulligan until I got a Percy or Nyx or Neggy in my opening hand, so I think adding 2 or 4 beaters will benefit the deck. I'm just not sure what to drop. I'll keep the Lotus Petals because, well, it really helps me. A turn one Percy will scare anyone any aggro deck without removal, and playing Duress or Thoutghtseize before to remove removal (lol) can literally win a game if followed by a turn two Percy, and the Petal helps me achieve that kind of early game speed.
And the Petal could also feed the Tombstalker, which was a great suggestion by you. By the way, that's a problem: I really want to play four copies of it, but the Confidant could kill me by fetching one.
I'll try playing the 'Stalker with Dream Salvage to see how it goes, but I doubt it will work, because the Confidant is such a great drawing engine that usually spells game over after having one or two on the table. It will eat some of my life to keep the early game disruption going on forever, and I really couldn't ask for more.
Fetchlands are a great idea for thining the deck. I'd like to add 16 of them, to fetch 4 swamps, to be sincere. But I'll probably use 8 if I drop Bob for the 'Stalkers.
I'll keep the Neggys instead of those Raiders because I usually use all cards in my hand. Having to discard one to play a creature would really hurt my flow.
I usually like to play Sinkholes and Wastelands, but I just don't see what to drop. And then again, it feels out of "theme": this deck discards early and often and then, one or two turns later, drops a huge threat that will massacre the opponent. Killing land during this time could hurt my timing, I guess. But I'll try.
Extirpate is a card that, when I've run, I didn't like it. Never did me that good, somehow. So I'm a little shortsighted with it.
Dystopia is a great card, I'll add it to the SB, but I'll stick with the Disk because, well, it kills enchants and arts. And I'm old school
Your deck looks very good, but it is way more beatdown-oriented than mine.
About Sign in Blood, don't you think Bob works better for me? I mean, since you run 'Stalkers, Sign is better, but Bob seems better for my build. And, as I said above, Bob keeps my early game rythim going, and that's great. Since you're experienced with this build, wouldn't you think dropping the 'Stalker to add Bob? Because it does wonders for me...
Sorry for the short response, but I already talked about most topics in the above quote
Anyway, I'm going to playtest with all these possibilities and then I'll post a new version soon
Again, thanks a lot!
I like the white splash for Swords to Plowshares and Gerrard's Verdict. It's something to consider.
first my current list.
13 [TSP] Swamp (1)
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
// Spells
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [VI] Funeral Charm
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [AQ] The Rack
4 [GP] Cry of Contrition
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
So far i've been trying to make this kind of deck work so i will list the cards i put in my latest version and explain how it all work together.
Chrome mox: in this scenario a better accelerator than dark ritual, not more than 3 though.
Wasteland: a must
Urborg: helps to bypass the you draw too much colorless mana lands and make swamps so if needed you can get swampwalk with funeral charm
Dark confidant: He is a must because it is the best card to get card advantage at a small price.
Bloodghast: sinergy with cabal therapy, smallpox, innocent blood and its a constant pain in the ass,
Abyssal persecutor: big bad MOFO with practically no drawbacks.
Hymn to tourach: No brainer
Cabal therapy: Awesome because it lets you discard more than one card, if you are lucky guessing or you do your homework on your meta you can get a card advantage even greater than with hymn.
The Rack: My fave way of killing with this archetype.
Funeral charm: fast, reliable, instant discard, noble hierarch killer, and sometimes an evasion or boost enabler, whats not to love?
Cry of contrition: if played correctly you get a 2 for 1 constantly.
Smallpox: It does so much, helps cry of contrition, helps the land kill and helps if you play abyssal persecutor or if you need to get rid of confidant.
Innocent blood: read up.
Now for the cards that didnt made the cut.
Duress, Inquisition of Kozileck and all those pinpoint discard like thoughtseize:
These are no good i mean yeah they are great but you most likely want to discard a lot of cards not an specific one.
Smother, diabolic Edict, Doom blade, snuffout etc...:
These would only be needed in a late game scenario when you face a wall and cannot hit your opponent, this meaning you dont have a rack or you didnt discarded his whole hand properly, if that is what happenned you are dead anyway so.. probably a couple on the SB i dunno.
Jitte: this is something that may be awesome but i just dont kow what to take out for it, and theres also the thing that i dont really have that many critters to fully exploit it.
Tombstalker: call me crazy but Dark Confidant+Tombstalker is a no no, besides with 3 sacrifice outlets persecutor is better in everyway.
Hypnotic Specter: well it is a fact that if you dont run dark ritual, you dont run hippie so...
What do you guys think.. ill be waiting for some input..
or maybe i should wite a primer over this?..
currently playing
Standard RUGRUG Ramp
Modern GRTurbo Moon,RRRSkred Red
Legacy BBBNightmare Effect,GUWEnchantress,UWBCephalid Breakfast
You make a good point. I'm already saving some money to get me 4 Sinkholes. I'll use them, they're great. I mean, unless I do what I say I might do later on in this post
However, I'll still keep the 'Stalker out of my decks because of Bob. It is my favorite card since Necro' came out, and that's saying a lot
That's true. Maybe I wasn't being that sincere
I was thinking about adding white for quite some time now... It will probably make the "Attempt at monoblack turbo discard" title a little futile, but it's still worth it. STP and Verdict would really help, but I also like Vindicate and even Death Grasp. Desolation Angel used to be great in standard, but I won't run it in legacy, I guess.
I read your post and liked your points, so I tried this new idea of not using cards that only discard one card (Thoughtseize, Duress, etc), and I noticed it worked better without them. Card drawing wasn't such a need to keep the deck running, and an opening hand without Dream Salvage or Bob didn't instantly spell doom for me like it did before.
So, thanks to all the great input I've been receiving from you, I made a new version of the deck. It is still being playtested, and it surely has flaws, and it isn't monoblack anymore, but I think it can be better than the earlier version.
Here's the new list:
4 caves of koilos
4 tainted field
4 lotus petal
3 zuran orb
3 defense grid
4 swords to plowshares
4 dream salvage
4 cabal therapy
4 hymn to tourach
4 gerrard's verdict
3 armageddon
4 dark confidant
2 phyrexian negator
2 nyxathid
4 abyssal persecutor
I splashed white for STP (great with Percy and Neggie), Verdict and a couple of Vindicates and Death Grasps, but I ended up keeping only STP in. The white card that has helped me the most, however, is a late add: 'Geddon. I usually get on the lead with all the early discard, and cleaning all lands by turn 4 and on can really win me a game after one of the big guys hits the board. I'm just not sure yet if I should use 3 or 4 of them. I'm also adding Zuran Orb to abuse the advantage and to make life easier with Bob - and also to, with multiple Grids, give non-vital perms to sac for Neggie. I'm not so sure if that's a great choice, but I'll try it.
I also took the Rituals out, and haven't missed them. Sure, my turn one's aren't as explosive anymore, but the middle-late game is more consistant. And of course, having 11 nonblack cards really hurt the Ritual's value. The bad thing is Percy now is only a turn 3-4 drop, and that hurts. So what you guys think? Should I put the Rituals back in? Should I run with 4 Neggies and 2 Percys?
A card I added that has done wonders so far is the Grid. It will protect my Neggies from early burn (and I'd love to run 4 Neggies now, but I'm not sure what to take off) and keep 'Geddon, Percy and every other important spell out of blue-counter-control's way, what's really great. I took out every instant not named "Swords to Plowshares" to make it work even better (the Salvages don't really count as instants), and I haven't missed them so far.
A problem, of course, is that the deck now holds 61 cards (63 if I take the Neggies up to 4 as I wish), so that's too much. What should I take off to go back to 60?
So, once and again, the deck looks a lot different and needs help
Thanks a lot and please keep all the great feedback coming!
I like the idea of the armaggedons, but it would be good if you could exploit them a bit more, and since you wont get any really good advantage by discarding the whole hand you could try precission discard again.
The Pikula build is really good at that, consider.
Tidehollow sculler
Flagstones of trokair
Smallpox
Tangle wire
Mindslicer
Just throwing ideas here, but i really think that if you are splashing white, there are cards that are auto includes, and those are Gerrards verdict, STP and Vindicate.
Keep working on it.. I will try to make one with Red splashed just cause blightning is soooo goood.
currently playing
Standard RUGRUG Ramp
Modern GRTurbo Moon,RRRSkred Red
Legacy BBBNightmare Effect,GUWEnchantress,UWBCephalid Breakfast
You're completely right. This deck lost its identity with that last modification, and splashing a second color is something I'll probably never do to it again. I didn't like it, it didn't work very well, so I'm back to basics.
The newest version:
2 defense grid
3 nevinyrral's disk
4 dark ritual
4 dream salvage
4 extirpate
3 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
4 hymn to tourach
2 haunting echoes
4 dark confidant
2 phyrexian negator
2 nyxathid
4 abyssal persecutor
The only new idea, really, is to add library removal in the form of Extirpate and Haunting Echoes. They have worked very well so far, removing threats before they appear.
'Precision discard', as you call them, works great with the new library disruption, and I've even seen one or two opponents conced after a turn one Ritual played Duress+Therapy and then I extirpated their game winner. The Echoes aren't that useful or show up that much, and sometimes hurt me badly with Bob, but I'm still keeping two copies. I tried to go with one, but then kinda missed it sometimes. It can be a game winner, really. What you guys think? Should I run just one, so that it sometimes shows up?
The biggest enemies of this deck, so far, have been the eventual turn one leylines - specially of the Void and Sanctity. So the return of the Disk has made me able to kill those while giving me better board control and also the ability to play multiple Percys at once and not have to worry how to get rid of them.
As the deck is right now, it holds 62 cards. I was thinking of taking the Echoes out altogether or maybe go down to 3 Percys and/or Bobs, but that just looks silly.
All help is welcome, thanks a lot!
16 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
Tech/Removal
2 Defense Grid
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Extirpate
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
The changes:
-1 nevinyrral's disk
-4 dream salvage
-3 duress
-2 haunting echoes
-4 dark confidant
-2 phyrexian negator
-2 nyxathid
+4 Diabolic Edict
+4 Phyrexian Arena
+4 Surgical Extraction
+4 Phyrexian Obliterator
The good:
Obliterator is a great addition to black, and he can really change the tide of a game all by his own. I just wanted to say this out loud.
Surgical Extraction adds to Extirpate. At first I switched them, but having both of them in the deck is a great thing. They permanently remove up to 8 threats from your opponent's strategy for minimal cost, and no deck can still win after having that many cards exiled. When I only had 4 Extirpates I had to be very careful with what to target, but right now I can gamble a lot more and still get it right because of all the copies. Ally them with your early discard, or cast them as soon as your opponent used a card you think is important.
Every time I play an Edict I can't remember why I took them out in the first place. They can play defense, offense and remove an Percy for the win. It's just crazy.
The disruption is still great, specially early game. The extra library destruction has added another dimension to the deck, and made it a lot more consistent.
The bad:
Playtested for a while with 4 Hunted Horrors with 2 Mutilates and 2 Forced Marches. Felt good for a while, but in the end it was a two carded BBBBB or even 2BBBB 7/7 trampler that cost me 3 life, so I dropped it. Still, back then I had 12 beaters and could afford to be more aggro, but right now with only 8 I play a little more early game disruption instead of beatdown. I really want to add 2 or 4 more beaters to make it more aggressive, but I'm not sure what to add. A burn heavy meta has made me wary of using Phyrexian Negator, small blockers getting non-tramplers make me wary of investing too much life into Phyrexian Scuta or Grinning Demon. Right now the deck just isn't packing the punch I'd desire.
Took all the Disks out, got all back in, got one Disk out, still miss it sometimes. Not very often, but when I do, it's usually a loss. The best thing about them is blowing up a combo that just got ready or getting rid of enchantments or Percy, however getting them into play actually slows the deck down, coming into play tapped too. I too often keep them in my hand wishing they were another beefy creature or discard spell. I'm completely lost on this one. Maybe I'll add a beater and go with sideboarded Disks.
The ugly:
Taking Bob out was one of the toughest decisions I ever made during my deck building life... Still, with Obli and Percy running at 4 mana, Bob was hurting me too much, too often. So he had to go. Phyrexian Arena took its place, being B more expensive, but also being harder to remove. The deck lost a beat, but got a lot safer, and I'm going with consistency.
I tried to go with Dimir House Guard for a while. It was an uncounterable creature tutor for 1BB, but too often I had dead cards in my hand, and an useless late game draw can mean game over, so I dropped them and got my Disks back (because, as stated above, I was really missing them). I might try Beseech the Queen sometime, but not now because I'm not sure what to remove.
And that would be it. I still have to playtest this new version a lot and see how to sideboard against the proven winning decks, but so far it has been good enough to feel like an upgrade.
Any help is welcome, thanks a lot!
While I like the whole idea of the deck, it is completely different from mine and it features too many cards I don't have and would be financially hard-pressed to get. But thanks for the tip, it felt good knowing another black control deck and reading it in portuguese
I playtested more and went a little towards a board removal The Gate-ish look, but still leaning heavily towards discard.
Here's the new decklist with a troublesome 64 cards:
16 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
Tech
2 Runechanter's Pike
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Go for the throat
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Extirpate
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
The biggest changes are the awesome Liliana of the Veil that saved me from the pain that Leyline of Sanctity is to me, Go for the Throat that can remove threats to get Extirpated and Surgical Extractioned and also get rid of Percy, and even more board removal and a bit more of a beatstick in the form of Gatekeeper of Malakir. I've been toying with Runechanter's Pike because my graveyard is usually full of instants and sorceries to no benefit, so people usually take their graveyard hate out against me, so it can really buff Percy and Obly to unholy amounts of power while adding another dimension to the deck.
And the first sketch of a sideboard, that hasn't been tested yet in any degree:
2 Defense Grid
2 Null Rod
2 Tsabo's Web
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Engineered Plague
Thanks, any help is welcome.
if your opponent plays a rishadan or a single land destruction you'll be messed up
you better playtest with 20 lands and them cut/add as you need
Phyrexian negator is really outclassed by phyrexian obliterator. with rituel, a 2nd turn obliterator is often game winning.
Totally true.
I didn't playtest against land destruction or the Port, but I'm taking it up to 20 because it'd be game over if I did.
Nicely noticed, I made many changes to the deck without minding the mana curve. What a stupid mistake.
Thanks for pointing it out.
That's true, but the version you read of the deck (probably the one on the first post) was made before those cards came out. They've been added to the latest version, as you correctly suggested.
So, after fixing the mana curve problem, here's the newest version:
20 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
Tech
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Go for the Throat
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
The deck stands at 62 cards but, besides going to 60, I'm thinking about replacing Gatekeeper of Malakir. His ability is great, but Liliana of the Veil offers the same and the deck doesn't lack other creature removal. I want to add an early beatstick to pack more of a punch before Percy or Obly hit the table, and I'm torn between:
Bitterblossom
Bloodghast
Nantuko Shade
Oona's Prowler
Dauthi Slayer
Geralf's Messenger
Vampire Nighthawk
Any help is welcome, thanks!