Hi everyone, I'm trying my hardest to build a cheap version of a deck using SFM.
After some experiments I assembled something that could possibly work.
The last change I made to my list was before the Treasure Cruise ban and my deck was structured around it.
My friends are fine with me playing it since I'm on a budget and it won't impact that much the game as it would normally so I'm still running that card -BUT- if I ever want to bring the deck to a local tournament, changes are going to be needed and since I'm asking for help about my whole decklist this is a fine time to get them off of it.
I'd actually consider running more basics with a pure blue/white set up. Miracles gets away with running fewer since its only 2 colors. The real power in doing is you can punish people with more money than you--running back to basics I'd consider the old counter stand by of counterspell over mana leak.
Treasure Cruise is banned in legacy.
I'd really cut the geists for true-name nemesis. The nemesis just is a great equipment carrying guy. I'd probably cut feast and famine though since 4 equipment is probably one too many. Its a bit different style of deck but maybe you could even run out delver. You have alot of spells to flip him.
The other option is to try to go dead guy ale--that is black/white. The big advantage is you really don't have to play nearly as budget--scrubland is alot more budget than any blue dual land. Instead of forces of will, you can use thoughtseize, iok, duress, cabal therapy, and hymn to tourach. You get powerful cards like lingering souls. Gurmag Angler does work in grixis and could definitely be an option for you or you could run Dark Confidant if you keep you curve lower. Deathrite shaman even without green is worth considering--he ramps and empties out GY's. If you do splash green (maybe a single overgrown tomb or something) you can use it to nail GY decks.
Back to Basics seems pretty interesting, never thought I could use that like MUC does.
I agree, Counterspell is going to replace mana leak ASAP, how am I not running that? LOL
Sometime I thought about Delver of Secrets but he does not make me feel like he is in his place in this deck: he benefits the most in more aggro strategies than the one I'm adopting right now, with some changes he could fit maybe.
Also, what am I cutting for him? Mother of Runes? I mean, maybe she can be more useful than a 3/2 flying...
I really like Deadguy ale as deck but IMHO Dark Confidant is required and I can't really afford Dark Confidant neither Liliana of the Veil.
I guess blue could be a little more forgiving money-wise...
Just wondering: is green out of question?
I think you could make Deadguy without Dark Confidant, but if you don't want to, then let's not worry about that option. I was going to suggest along with your discard, you could use a graveyard removal effect like surgical extraction to fight against a combo deck better. (Take away Show and Tell from Omnitell and the deck is just a pile of cantrips.)
Basically stoneforge mystic will bring white into anything besides red. (Incidentally, the only red/white deck I've seen in legacy was Goblins splashing white for Thalia.)
If you mean just green, you move into Maverick's territory. Maverick is the other deck that often uses mother of runes besides Death and Taxes.
Maverick relies on Green Sun's Zenith to have a toolbox of creatures. Knight of the Reliquary is its usually big attacker. Knight can also fetch lands, so they rely more on wasteland and karakas for fun tricks. Sometimes they even run the dark depths/thespian's sage combo to get a 20/20 indestructible. Its key element besides GSZ is Thalia. Without her, you are on the road to being Junk more. There's some cards like the aforementioned Deathite shaman and his constant companion abrupt decay as well as discard. Maverick does really well to beat delver and can fight some combo decks though those aren't easy battles. It struggles with Miracles. So right now the meta in general is unfavorable to Maverick. But if you like that deck, you can certainly work on it. Most pros say that if you know a deck inside and out, you'll do better than playing the best deck for the meta. Heck, my first deck was Nic Fit complete with stoneforge mystics--I basically chose it because I could run basics profitability. I ran shocks and never lost a game because of them, though the deck is packed random life gain with scavening ooze, deathrites, and seige rhinos (previously thragtusk).
Now if you meant, White, Blue, and Green....that deck is of course Bant hexproof. Its an interesting deck that tends to go more midrange and play bigger threats...sometimes even having Natural Order and Progentinus as an out. I don't think that's what you want though because it really relies on its forces of will more than most and those are hard to replace for any blue deck. Blue is the most expensive color in magic...blue duals are often times double the cost of other combinations, with the exception of maybe Bayous.
As for Delver, you could drop the three treasure cruises (again banned) and the sword of light and shadow. Generally, you want to stick to 3 pieces of equipment...many decks just run a jitte and batterskull. Delver definitely is an aggressively creature. He's just very powerful when you are running alot of spells...with your cantrips he's a 3/2 flying for 1 often times. Think of a turn delver into a turn 2 mystic, into a turn 3 batterskull. In an ideal world, he'll do 6 damage before the batterskull even comes online. Add in a bit of damage from fetches or stuff like thoughtseize, and your opponent might be sweating. If the batterskull and delver connect again (for 7), that's 13 damage....you opponent might only have a turn to live. It makes something like true name so scary because it doesn't take much to push them over the edge hence why lightning bolt is often splashed for. Granted, its unlikely they won't have any interaction, but it gives you an idea of how fast the deck can be. Delver is a bit of beast because he's blue and efficient. It seems like most colors have great creatures now, so often times its what type of removal do you want? Like I love Abrupt Decay so I tend to go with those colors. It is just really satisfying to break a miracle lock or kill something without being dazed.
I think he's better than Mother of Runes in a way because Mother suffers the problem of most x/1's...they are very frail. With Grixis Young Pryomancer running amok, we are seeing alot more -1/-1 effects being put in side boards like we did during the era of True-name Nemesis and poor Mother is caught in the cross fire. Its not that she's bad, but she's not for every deck for sure either.
When I first said green I was thinking about maverick of course, Mother of Runes is there since when I had the idea of testing her beacause of maverick.
Ok, Delver of Secrets might deserve a spot more than I could have imagined.
What type of removal do I want, you ask?
Hmmm... So, if I want to stick with blue, aside delver, counterspell and possibly back to basics are there other changes you would make?
What if I want to go GW? Would the deck look like 4 StP 4 GSZ and then a bunch of dudes?
And now that I think about it, would a monowhite version similar to D&T work?
Sorry for bothering you this much.
If you go mono-white, you probably need D&T's mana denial package and creature based lock pieces to enable you to play.
I'd checkout a deck database and skim the archetype you're looking at for ideas from decks that placed. Something like tcdecks.net, mtgdecks.com or mtgtop8.com. There are lots of examples of all of the ideas discussed here.
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Don't run Sword of Feast and Famine, the last thing you want to do is feed your opponent's Delve spells or reanimation targets.
If you have to have another equipment, consider either Sword of War and Peace for extra Bolt/StP protection, Sword of Light and Shadow for StP/Abrupt Decay protection plus creature recursion, or Manriki-Gusari if you want to hate on decks like D&T, Merfolk, Maverick or Blade decks that run equipment.
Back to Basics would be pretty awesome considering how greedy most mana bases are.
So, I will try to make a couple of lists resembling to current top tier decks.
This is my original list, I copy paste for not making you scroll too much.
In the first list, I'm not sure I can get a complete set of the countertop.
I'm still thinking how to fit Back to Basics in each list.
I'm using Sword of Feast and Famine over other swords beacause since I'm missing 0CMC counters the untap effect is super handy and I think the untap is worth the possiblity of giving opponent an advantage.
That being said, how bad does these lists look like?
I am really fond of back to basics in a dual color deck. If you can drop it fast enough, you can sometimes turn your enemies deck into lotus petals. It does require some concessions...you want to avoid double mana costs and run more basics. I most often saw it in monoblue tempo decks. It feels like a bloodmoon type effect...but they don't even get colorless.
If you want to go the miracles route, then I'd at least run entreat the angels. It just got reprinted in the new FTV so its price is pretty much at rock bottom. I'd probably cut the fastlands regardless in the miracle shell. If you have enlightened tutor you could think about a main deck rest in peace and energy field. The tutors open up the option of helm of obedience. With how the card is worded, with RIP in play, it mills their entire deck because you mill until X cards go into their graveyard. It means you are attacking through 3 very different angles...you can spawn angels at the end of their turn, you can beatdown with stoneforge, or you can threaten to combo out and win. It helps make up for not having Jace, though, Jace being what he is, its hard playing without him. Also having main deck rest in peace really can mess with some graveyard decks and energy field can flat out defeat some agro decks by itself. Enlightened Tutor also finds your counterbalance lock. I'd look at Misdirection as an answer to abrupt decay as well. Its not as good as force but it can do some work for you. If you do play tutors, detention sphere is amazing silver bullet (especially against empty the warrens) as is pithing needle.
I still really like true-name nemesis. He's just too good at carrying equipment through flooded boards to get jitte counters or sword triggers. I'd be afraid of a geist walking into a snapcaster.
I'd use deathrite shaman over birds of paradise in Maverick...even if you don't slip in a black mana source to fetch up. Even without any other black cards in there, you can threaten abrupt decay by leaving the appropriate mana open. He gives you game against graveyard tactics and lifegain is never bad, as is extra defense point and the ability to attack. Once fetchlands are exhausted as resource, you probably don't need his mana power anyway. I'd drop knight of reliquary without a land package to back him up. Mirran Crusader seems to be better at carrying equipment and if you are afraid of bolt, countermagic, or discard, I'd go Loxodon Smiter. I'd replace the squadron hawks with something like scavenging ooze--one copy is enough to tutor for. Maybe Eternal Witness or other value or hate bearers depending on your meta. Sylvan library is another power house for maverick as a singleton because against combo that doesn't care about your life, you can draw extra cards.
I was looking at Spooky's budget thread again and I realized you could try to build more heavily around the stoneforge effect. He calls the deck a tribe called quest.
It is like affinity meets stoneforge mystic. The real powerhouse play a turn 1 holy quest into a turn 2 or 3--argentum armor. Being able to vindicate one of their threats each turn is pretty amazing or a land. You have almost no stack interaction, but such is the way of monowhite. It definitely a rogue deck and by no means as strong as say building towards miracles but it might do well locally depending on your metagame.
In all those lists, I'd run less Hallowed Fountain & Seachrome Coast, and more Back to Basics. I've run Miracles with 2 Tundra and it works fine. I'd choose one of the U/W decks if I were you since the GW one is like a neutered Maverick (no Wasteland or black splash for discard effects vs combo). While you don't have Force of Will in the blue decks, you still will at some point have the ability to counter spells.
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Force of will isnt actually very important. Dont bother with seachromes/fortess, just play more basics or fetches. You don't need mother of runes in a deck like this.
I'm already running a modern version of a deck with Quest for the Holy Relic and based on my experience puresteel paladin is not doing much in this... but this configuration sure deserves a test, I guess it would be super funny and can pull off unexpected wins for sure.
@Mild Wongrel thanks dude, now I have a pretty clear idea of how the manabase should look like with BtB, the deck also looks cool.
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After some experiments I assembled something that could possibly work.
The last change I made to my list was before the Treasure Cruise ban and my deck was structured around it.
My friends are fine with me playing it since I'm on a budget and it won't impact that much the game as it would normally so I'm still running that card -BUT- if I ever want to bring the deck to a local tournament, changes are going to be needed and since I'm asking for help about my whole decklist this is a fine time to get them off of it.
At the moment the deck looks like this.
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
2 Geist of Saint Traft
Spells (23)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
I tried to emulate jeskai blade except i cut Lightning Bolt and Pyroblast making it "azorius blade".
I don't really care if it looks like jeskai blade, esper blade, maverick or different blades deck as long as SFM and blades are there.
Please share with me your thoughts.
Treasure Cruise is banned in legacy.
I'd really cut the geists for true-name nemesis. The nemesis just is a great equipment carrying guy. I'd probably cut feast and famine though since 4 equipment is probably one too many. Its a bit different style of deck but maybe you could even run out delver. You have alot of spells to flip him.
The other option is to try to go dead guy ale--that is black/white. The big advantage is you really don't have to play nearly as budget--scrubland is alot more budget than any blue dual land. Instead of forces of will, you can use thoughtseize, iok, duress, cabal therapy, and hymn to tourach. You get powerful cards like lingering souls. Gurmag Angler does work in grixis and could definitely be an option for you or you could run Dark Confidant if you keep you curve lower. Deathrite shaman even without green is worth considering--he ramps and empties out GY's. If you do splash green (maybe a single overgrown tomb or something) you can use it to nail GY decks.
Deadguy ale tournament placer
You could try to go to three colors but that's a bit more pricey. Do you want a decklist for blue/white or black/white?
I agree, Counterspell is going to replace mana leak ASAP, how am I not running that? LOL
Sometime I thought about Delver of Secrets but he does not make me feel like he is in his place in this deck: he benefits the most in more aggro strategies than the one I'm adopting right now, with some changes he could fit maybe.
Also, what am I cutting for him? Mother of Runes? I mean, maybe she can be more useful than a 3/2 flying...
I really like Deadguy ale as deck but IMHO Dark Confidant is required and I can't really afford Dark Confidant neither Liliana of the Veil.
I guess blue could be a little more forgiving money-wise...
Just wondering: is green out of question?
Basically stoneforge mystic will bring white into anything besides red. (Incidentally, the only red/white deck I've seen in legacy was Goblins splashing white for Thalia.)
If you mean just green, you move into Maverick's territory. Maverick is the other deck that often uses mother of runes besides Death and Taxes.
Maverick Thread
Maverick relies on Green Sun's Zenith to have a toolbox of creatures. Knight of the Reliquary is its usually big attacker. Knight can also fetch lands, so they rely more on wasteland and karakas for fun tricks. Sometimes they even run the dark depths/thespian's sage combo to get a 20/20 indestructible. Its key element besides GSZ is Thalia. Without her, you are on the road to being Junk more. There's some cards like the aforementioned Deathite shaman and his constant companion abrupt decay as well as discard. Maverick does really well to beat delver and can fight some combo decks though those aren't easy battles. It struggles with Miracles. So right now the meta in general is unfavorable to Maverick. But if you like that deck, you can certainly work on it. Most pros say that if you know a deck inside and out, you'll do better than playing the best deck for the meta. Heck, my first deck was Nic Fit complete with stoneforge mystics--I basically chose it because I could run basics profitability. I ran shocks and never lost a game because of them, though the deck is packed random life gain with scavening ooze, deathrites, and seige rhinos (previously thragtusk).
Now if you meant, White, Blue, and Green....that deck is of course Bant hexproof. Its an interesting deck that tends to go more midrange and play bigger threats...sometimes even having Natural Order and Progentinus as an out. I don't think that's what you want though because it really relies on its forces of will more than most and those are hard to replace for any blue deck. Blue is the most expensive color in magic...blue duals are often times double the cost of other combinations, with the exception of maybe Bayous.
As for Delver, you could drop the three treasure cruises (again banned) and the sword of light and shadow. Generally, you want to stick to 3 pieces of equipment...many decks just run a jitte and batterskull. Delver definitely is an aggressively creature. He's just very powerful when you are running alot of spells...with your cantrips he's a 3/2 flying for 1 often times. Think of a turn delver into a turn 2 mystic, into a turn 3 batterskull. In an ideal world, he'll do 6 damage before the batterskull even comes online. Add in a bit of damage from fetches or stuff like thoughtseize, and your opponent might be sweating. If the batterskull and delver connect again (for 7), that's 13 damage....you opponent might only have a turn to live. It makes something like true name so scary because it doesn't take much to push them over the edge hence why lightning bolt is often splashed for. Granted, its unlikely they won't have any interaction, but it gives you an idea of how fast the deck can be. Delver is a bit of beast because he's blue and efficient. It seems like most colors have great creatures now, so often times its what type of removal do you want? Like I love Abrupt Decay so I tend to go with those colors. It is just really satisfying to break a miracle lock or kill something without being dazed.
I think he's better than Mother of Runes in a way because Mother suffers the problem of most x/1's...they are very frail. With Grixis Young Pryomancer running amok, we are seeing alot more -1/-1 effects being put in side boards like we did during the era of True-name Nemesis and poor Mother is caught in the cross fire. Its not that she's bad, but she's not for every deck for sure either.
Ok, Delver of Secrets might deserve a spot more than I could have imagined.
What type of removal do I want, you ask?
Hmmm... So, if I want to stick with blue, aside delver, counterspell and possibly back to basics are there other changes you would make?
What if I want to go GW? Would the deck look like 4 StP 4 GSZ and then a bunch of dudes?
And now that I think about it, would a monowhite version similar to D&T work?
Sorry for bothering you this much.
I'd checkout a deck database and skim the archetype you're looking at for ideas from decks that placed. Something like tcdecks.net, mtgdecks.com or mtgtop8.com. There are lots of examples of all of the ideas discussed here.
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
If you have to have another equipment, consider either Sword of War and Peace for extra Bolt/StP protection, Sword of Light and Shadow for StP/Abrupt Decay protection plus creature recursion, or Manriki-Gusari if you want to hate on decks like D&T, Merfolk, Maverick or Blade decks that run equipment.
Back to Basics would be pretty awesome considering how greedy most mana bases are.
As for Treasure Cruise, just replace it with Dig Through Time.
This is my original list, I copy paste for not making you scroll too much.
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
2 Geist of Saint Traft
Spells (23)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Monastery Mentor
Spells (23)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
2 Dig Through Time
3 Terminus
1 Batterskull
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Delver of Secrets
Spells (24)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple Garden
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
I'm still thinking how to fit Back to Basics in each list.
I'm using Sword of Feast and Famine over other swords beacause since I'm missing 0CMC counters the untap effect is super handy and I think the untap is worth the possiblity of giving opponent an advantage.
That being said, how bad does these lists look like?
EDIT: improved readability
If you want to go the miracles route, then I'd at least run entreat the angels. It just got reprinted in the new FTV so its price is pretty much at rock bottom. I'd probably cut the fastlands regardless in the miracle shell. If you have enlightened tutor you could think about a main deck rest in peace and energy field. The tutors open up the option of helm of obedience. With how the card is worded, with RIP in play, it mills their entire deck because you mill until X cards go into their graveyard. It means you are attacking through 3 very different angles...you can spawn angels at the end of their turn, you can beatdown with stoneforge, or you can threaten to combo out and win. It helps make up for not having Jace, though, Jace being what he is, its hard playing without him. Also having main deck rest in peace really can mess with some graveyard decks and energy field can flat out defeat some agro decks by itself. Enlightened Tutor also finds your counterbalance lock. I'd look at Misdirection as an answer to abrupt decay as well. Its not as good as force but it can do some work for you. If you do play tutors, detention sphere is amazing silver bullet (especially against empty the warrens) as is pithing needle.
I still really like true-name nemesis. He's just too good at carrying equipment through flooded boards to get jitte counters or sword triggers. I'd be afraid of a geist walking into a snapcaster.
I'd use deathrite shaman over birds of paradise in Maverick...even if you don't slip in a black mana source to fetch up. Even without any other black cards in there, you can threaten abrupt decay by leaving the appropriate mana open. He gives you game against graveyard tactics and lifegain is never bad, as is extra defense point and the ability to attack. Once fetchlands are exhausted as resource, you probably don't need his mana power anyway. I'd drop knight of reliquary without a land package to back him up. Mirran Crusader seems to be better at carrying equipment and if you are afraid of bolt, countermagic, or discard, I'd go Loxodon Smiter. I'd replace the squadron hawks with something like scavenging ooze--one copy is enough to tutor for. Maybe Eternal Witness or other value or hate bearers depending on your meta. Sylvan library is another power house for maverick as a singleton because against combo that doesn't care about your life, you can draw extra cards.
I was looking at Spooky's budget thread again and I realized you could try to build more heavily around the stoneforge effect. He calls the deck a tribe called quest.
4 Glint Hawk
3 Puresteel Paladin
3 Memnite
4 Mother of Runes
4 Ornithopter
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Wall of Omens
4 Swords to Plowshares
Enchantments-4
4 Quest for the Holy Relic
Artifacts-5
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Argentum Armor
16 Plains
It is like affinity meets stoneforge mystic. The real powerhouse play a turn 1 holy quest into a turn 2 or 3--argentum armor. Being able to vindicate one of their threats each turn is pretty amazing or a land. You have almost no stack interaction, but such is the way of monowhite. It definitely a rogue deck and by no means as strong as say building towards miracles but it might do well locally depending on your metagame.
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
//20 Lands:
3 Hallowed Fountain/Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted delta (cheapest)/other blue fetch
2 Windswept heath (cheapest)/other white fetch
4 Island
3 Plains
//Creatures (10)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Monastery Mentor
2 True-Name Nemesis
//Spells (27)
2 Back to Basics
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
3 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment
2 Supreme Verdict
//Noncreature Permanents (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
//Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Disenchant
1 Pithing needle
2 Relic/cage
2 Path to exile
2 ???
Force of will isnt actually very important. Dont bother with seachromes/fortess, just play more basics or fetches. You don't need mother of runes in a deck like this.
I'm already running a modern version of a deck with Quest for the Holy Relic and based on my experience puresteel paladin is not doing much in this... but this configuration sure deserves a test, I guess it would be super funny and can pull off unexpected wins for sure.
@Mild Wongrel thanks dude, now I have a pretty clear idea of how the manabase should look like with BtB, the deck also looks cool.