Hey guys, how about Inquisitor's Flail as budget equipment substitute for Jitte, I know, it's not even close but it can increase the clock of this deck significantly. Also, it have a crazy sinergy with Commander Eesha.
Would Mask of Memory be great for people who don't run Jitte? Cheap casting cost/equip cost and with evasion, drawing a ton of cards seems really good. Plus if you have Island Sanctuary out, you can keep skipping your draw step without a drawback.
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Twitter: @mtgtwin1 Arizona players, click above! MTGDeckBlog - a place for me to dump my deck ideas (mostly Legacy). Some good, some bad, but mainly you decide
I think the mask might not be bad in a mono-white build, but unless I'm mistaken, Jitte is used due to it's versatility...as for the different builds, I guess what's being said is that U/W really is the best, even if it is sub-par...unless there's more stuff out there that we haven't even thought of...
Inquisitor's Flail and Mask of Memory are both good artifacts but they wouldn't serve the same purpose that Jitte does. Jitte controls the board for us and effectively eliminates threats that would otherwise be difficult to deal with. It also gains life for us when needed and in rare situations, I actually use it as a damage booster. But if I can use it to get more damage in, that means I'm pretty much already winning.
I really don't like Inquisitor's Flail that much in a deck like this because many of our fliers are 1/1 creatures. That means they only swing in for an extra point of damage and that's not really worth it, IMHO. On the other hand, I have thought about Mask of Memory in the past because of the synergy with Island Sanctuary and the fact that card advantage is never a bad thing.
I do prefer Jitte, though and think it's the right choice if your budget can handle it.
Loki, I haven't really explored other color options in depth so I hesitate to say that you couldn't make a viable flier/bird deck out of other color combinations. Weltkrieg and I agree, however, that dropping Sky Hussar and Island Sanctuary (even if it isn't relevant in all match-ups) would really put a damper in performance. Uncounterable card advantage and a strong prison card help give this deck something beyond just the basic aggro plan.
Adding a third color does weaken our mana base particularly when we are running budget lands (as this is still a budget build) and not fetches with duals. I recommend staying with two colors for stability.
PS: If you were going to run colors other than U/W, I'd almost consider a B/W deck with Sky Hussars (if you are running enough of the b/u creatures) still included for draw. You'd lose StP, PtE, Squadron Hawk and Sanctuary but pick up some other good fliers and discard. Or you could even run a B/W list that uses Maddening Imp with Island Sanctuary. That would be funny.
Inquisitor's Flail and Mask of Memory are both good artifacts but they wouldn't serve the same purpose that Jitte does. Jitte controls the board for us and effectively eliminates threats that would otherwise be difficult to deal with. It also gains life for us when needed and in rare situations, I actually use it as a damage booster. But if I can use it to get more damage in, that means I'm pretty much already winning.
I really don't like Inquisitor's Flail that much in a deck like this because many of our fliers are 1/1 creatures. That means they only swing in for an extra point of damage and that's not really worth it, IMHO. On the other hand, I have thought about Mask of Memory in the past because of the synergy with Island Sanctuary and the fact that card advantage is never a bad thing.
I do prefer Jitte, though and think it's the right choice if your budget can handle it.
Loki, I haven't really explored other color options in depth so I hesitate to say that you couldn't make a viable flier/bird deck out of other color combinations. Weltkrieg and I agree, however, that dropping Sky Hussar and Island Sanctuary (even if it isn't relevant in all match-ups) would really put a damper in performance. Uncounterable card advantage and a strong prison card help give this deck something beyond just the basic aggro plan.
Adding a third color does weaken our mana base particularly when we are running budget lands (as this is still a budget build) and not fetches with duals. I recommend staying with two colors for stability.
PS: If you were going to run colors other than U/W, I'd almost consider a B/W deck with Sky Hussars (if you are running enough of the b/u creatures) still included for draw. You'd lose StP, PtE, Squadron Hawk and Sanctuary but pick up some other good fliers and discard. Or you could even run a B/W list that uses Maddening Imp with Island Sanctuary. That would be funny.
So, the Island Sanctuary is good, but the new Bird from Innastrad is not, and Meektone is not worth it, either...at least here...you know, there was a mention a little while back about Opposition...maybe a U/W build with cheap birds and Meekstone might be interesting...not sure what it would look like. But, I would like to explore that idea if anyone would like to help.
Opposition? crap. I forgot all about testing that build. Does anyone know what the rage is these days for online testing? Is it MWS still or something else?
I think it's still MWS, or MODO...but, some people I talk to at my local shop have pointed out that Opposition is a 4CMC Enchantment that doesn't win you the game, and in this meta, that's too slow...this tells me that either A: It's really not viable, or B: you need to slow down the opponent with other stuff too to make it relavant...
wth that being said, I am still game for exploration...
The list I posted earlier is packing counterspells, etc. to slow folks down. Personally, opposition decks are sort of like a war of attrition and they *are* control decks, which is how control decks often win. I could point out the same thing about humility, really. It too, is a cmc 4 enchantment that doesn't win you the game. However, it does prevent your opponent from winning, and that is what it is all about.
So I am in need of a cheap legacy deck, but I had to sell of most of my cards for money, and this looks fun to play. However I kept my FoW for sentimental reasons. Do they have a place here?
surely they do in a non budget blue/white list. I've got them as well, as well as full sets of blue/white fetchable duals, and I will run them too, whenever I get around to testing the list. However, they surely aren't required!
I don't think I would waste my time with battle screech. It's just too slow. Emeria angel can quite quickly get out of hand with something like this. I think I would much prefer that one myself.
As far as island sanctuary goes, you might try combining it with Humility along with your ascension, even though that is another deck entirely. At that point, you're pretty well attack proof.
For a control list, as promised, I've been brainstorming some. I'm going to just stick to birds for now. It looks like it's going to pretty well encompass blue and white for sure. Keeper of the nine gales looks necessary. However, I'm not entirely sure I should stick to just blue/white. I like your list as it stands, very much. Blue/white seems to need something extra. there are some very nice cards that can help, not the least of which is in green for birds of paradise. The reason I also suggest green is for a bit of mana acceleration because one of the birds I would really like to run costs 6 to drop. Admittedly, it's a very late game drop, but it can quickly get out of hand. Crookclaw elder is that card. You also get flurry of wings which is one I've been dying to try out in an aggro meta for a while. I'm not sure it's good enough, but one of these vs. an aggro deck like goblins or merfolk can quite possibly turn the tide in your favor.
Otherwise, I'm not sure how to make it work entirely. As an aggro control with a birds/flying theme, the decks already discussed will work well with island sanctuary. At this point, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a terrible idea to include a couple of opposition. It's going to be very slow to develop board position. A bird that fits well is raven familiar, but costs 3, which is when we need to be dropping keeper. At the same time, it works well with seaside haven, which loves to sacrifice squadron hawk and welkin hawk. I'm also entirely sure that a deck based around this needs something akin to an unstoppable or at least efficient late game bird engine. That is pretty well emeria angel, which wants fetchlands, which again points to green/white/blue. More fetches=better, here. so maybe a very very rough starting point for a creature based blue/white non budget list would be:
Now this is admittedly a terrible initial list. I don't know if the counters are right. I've tried to give plenty of basics in order to minimize wastelands effects. Counterspell could be daze/mental misstep/spell pierce, etc. One advantage to this deck is that there are exactly 8 mental misstep targets in it. Neither one is usually critical, as it opts for board control (opposition/keeper). This may even be a start for a counter top list, as much as I hate that combination. Also, it could probably use a good lord effect to pump out of volcanic fallout range, or maybe just some good reanimation. Perhaps Celestial Gatekeeper has a home here, I don't know. This list is pure theory craft and would require extensive playtesting. If I can get MWS up and running, Perhaps I can test with someone here.
Ok, after looking this list over, it looks like something I might like to try...however, do you think that there is a way to make a list like this budget that is still decent? I mean, looking at it, it seems that the majority of the budget is in the fetches, duals and FoW...I'm just curious.
The duals are easy enough to replace. this deck is meant to abuse brainstorm+fetches and fetches+emeria angel, which is what gives you your nasty late game. You could easily use seachrome coast. You could also use painlands, such as adarkar wastes. These will be your necessary non tapped lands, though I do recommend getting the duals as you can. However, you'll want to switch brainstorm to ponder or preordain, to give you the option to ship your cards away. emeria angel will also not be nearly as effective in this build, so that may be something else to consider getting rid of for something else.
Counterspells could be force spike or mana tithe (works on critters) or spell pierce (doesn't work on critters, but does work otherwise). Basically, you need a few early counters to survive the early turns and then take over the board in the late game.
Ok, I see...any thoughts on replacing the Angel, if she's not optimal w/o the fetches, *shrug* Unless the Panoramas/Evolving Wilds/etc. are even playable...I mean, they might work, but... *shudder* I just see bad things happening if you try that. I could be COMPLETELY wrong, though.
I do like the idea of using Mana Tithe, as having a two color deck you just don't always have that color open for what you need. I think I might proxie up a budget version and see if it's any good...doubtful, but you never know
Well, I would pay more attention to synergies in a budget deck. Something budget decks can do that goodstuff decks can't is concentrate on synergies, which is to say, capitalize on the birds and maybe use something else, if you can. for example, if you're using seaside haven, one thing you could do is try murder of crows. He gives you a bigger late game beatstick that also starts drawing lots of cards. also, maybe mistveil plains to recur your hawks.
So, a budget build would be better off with something like the Airie to pump the birds, and using the Crows to draw off the deaths/sacs to the Seaside Haven? Would it still be a good idea to run Mana Tithe and such? Or is the Opposition list something that needs it because it will function differently, since the budget build wont be spamming tokens out nearly as fast?
So, a budget build would be better off with something like the Airie to pump the birds, and using the Crows to draw off the deaths/sacs to the Seaside Haven? Would it still be a good idea to run Mana Tithe and such? Or is the Opposition list something that needs it because it will function differently, since the budget build wont be spamming tokens out nearly as fast?
I don't think necessarily that you need aerie to pump the birds. I am just saying that the murder of crows as a 2 of works as a top end finisher that has a secondary useful function. it should be a given that feathers will fly in this sort of deck, so why not use it when you can?
Wow! This thread exploded in the last day or so. I'll have to throw in my two cents later but for now I thought I'd throw out a couple resources for testing Angry Birds. I wholeheartedly recommend play testing this deck (and any variations) to really get a feel for how the deck plays. I know, for myself at least, I cannot move beyond mere questions and theories about a deck until I have actually played the deck and gotten a feel for how it performs.
First, if you don't want to use MWS, Cockatrice is another great (and completely free) program for testing against others online. I have used it to test Angry Birds and there are always people online playing Legacy. Just google it to find it. I can't remember the exact website address.
Also, I use tappedout.net for play testing as well. They have a very nice online app for goldfishing or even play testing decks against each other if you've got a friend with you who is willing to play a few virtual games of magic with you.
Purchasing magic cards is not always inexpensive so I spend a lot of my time play testing through the above means to get a feel for how a deck performs before I purchase the cards. Actually proxying a deck is a serious pain in the neck, IMHO.
Hope this is helpful!
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Force of Will is kind of like duct tape. Stick it in a deck and it will fix all your problems.
What would a game of Magic between Harry Potter and Voldemort look like?
I don't think necessarily that you need aerie to pump the birds. I am just saying that the murder of crows as a 2 of works as a top end finisher that has a secondary useful function. it should be a given that feathers will fly in this sort of deck, so why not use it when you can?
I see. So, Opposition wouldn't work here...but, the Island Sanctuary/Meekstone/whatever would probably be better. It sounds like that $70 dollar budget build MadcatSowega posted earlier is my best option, right now..then tweak as needed...speaking off...
@MadcatSowega: yeah, I hear you about the testing vs. theory...I'm just the type of guy that likes to try and look at as many of the possibilities first, then test the ones I like the best.
I've been trying to come up with a decent budget replacement for Jitte which is a fairly difficult thing to do. However, I think I might have found a suitable card that would work for the cheap build until a player's budget permits getting Jittes. What do you guys think of Sigil of Sleep? It comes down early and in a fliers deck, it's likely to be useful for screwing with the opponent's tempo.
@LokiSukaido, I totally understand. I like looking at all angles too. Why not throw a theoretical deck list together that's built the way you would like to see your deck built, post it on here and we can help you tweak it for competitiveness?
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Force of Will is kind of like duct tape. Stick it in a deck and it will fix all your problems.
What would a game of Magic between Harry Potter and Voldemort look like?
Do you have any suggestions on how to fine tune/improve my list beyond including obvious, exceptionally expensive cards? I feel like I've had MTG writer's block recently with this deck. I know that it can be better, I'm just having a hard time figuring out how to accomplish that.
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Force of Will is kind of like duct tape. Stick it in a deck and it will fix all your problems.
What would a game of Magic between Harry Potter and Voldemort look like?
I suppose there's gilded drake as a sideboard card against the fatty cheating decks. I like sower of temptation better here, though.
I don't know about it, but if you can swing it with the island sanctuary engine, then maybe luminarch ascension has a place. You can go a lot of turns without being damaged.
I think I mentioned it earlier, but rootwater thief might be solid against combo, if you can stall them long enough.
I know this deck rags on aggro, but one thing I have to say I love is a card called somnophore. I'd only run two at most, but one of these going and it's gg for any aggro player.
What about running a Thrummingbird based deck. We have the Jitte and Aerie but we could also use proliferate on the Masque's Depletion Lands or my favorite Parallax Wave and Parallax Tide
Ok, so I proxied up that build you've been testing, weltkrieg. Here's what I see just with my initial bit of testing...
The Sky Hussiar / Island Sanctuary interaction is really crucial to the deck. Nobody likes to see Squadron Hawks come down. Especially with a Skyscape Familiar out. The only thing is that this deck doesn't provide a whole lot of visible presure. While it's great in the sense that we can get a few swings in early without the opponent realizing, it seems to be that they will continue to play their game without worrying about ours...I dunno if it's just me, though.
With that being said, weltkrieg, you mentioned Aether Vial before. Do you think that would be enough to add to up the power of the deck? Or would we then need to start adding other silly stuff to make that work?
Which brings up another question...Could I get away with playing a sort of budget U/W controlish deck using the Spiketails and cheap flyers with the Sanctuary draw engine and have it be somewhat competative? I know this is for Angry Birds, but just thinking of cheating in a Spiketail or something that counters stuff might be a nice budget alternative to FoW.
EDIT: Just realized that it might just be better to go Vial Fish if I wanted to cheat in creatures that can counter stuff...what do you think?
Arizona players, click above!
MTGDeckBlog - a place for me to dump my deck ideas (mostly Legacy). Some good, some bad, but mainly you decide
I really don't like Inquisitor's Flail that much in a deck like this because many of our fliers are 1/1 creatures. That means they only swing in for an extra point of damage and that's not really worth it, IMHO. On the other hand, I have thought about Mask of Memory in the past because of the synergy with Island Sanctuary and the fact that card advantage is never a bad thing.
I do prefer Jitte, though and think it's the right choice if your budget can handle it.
Loki, I haven't really explored other color options in depth so I hesitate to say that you couldn't make a viable flier/bird deck out of other color combinations. Weltkrieg and I agree, however, that dropping Sky Hussar and Island Sanctuary (even if it isn't relevant in all match-ups) would really put a damper in performance. Uncounterable card advantage and a strong prison card help give this deck something beyond just the basic aggro plan.
Adding a third color does weaken our mana base particularly when we are running budget lands (as this is still a budget build) and not fetches with duals. I recommend staying with two colors for stability.
The list I used in testing was....:
4x Augury Owl
1x Aven Mimeomancer
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Kor Skyfisher
4x Pride of the Clouds
3x Sky Hussar
4x Squadron Hawk
3x Stormscape Familiar
4x Glacial Fortress
5x Island
4x Mystic Gate
6x Plains
Instant (7)
3x Path to Exile
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Island Sanctuary
Artifact (4)
4x Umezawa's Jitte
PS: If you were going to run colors other than U/W, I'd almost consider a B/W deck with Sky Hussars (if you are running enough of the b/u creatures) still included for draw. You'd lose StP, PtE, Squadron Hawk and Sanctuary but pick up some other good fliers and discard. Or you could even run a B/W list that uses Maddening Imp with Island Sanctuary. That would be funny.
BGSpanish InquisitionGB
GFood Chain ElvesG
WUAngry BirdsUW
BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
So, the Island Sanctuary is good, but the new Bird from Innastrad is not, and Meektone is not worth it, either...at least here...you know, there was a mention a little while back about Opposition...maybe a U/W build with cheap birds and Meekstone might be interesting...not sure what it would look like. But, I would like to explore that idea if anyone would like to help.
But, the other thing I like is that B/W idea with Island Sanctuary and Maddening Imp. Maybe Tidehollow Sculler...? Would that be a real feasable idea, or no?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
wth that being said, I am still game for exploration...
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Ok, after looking this list over, it looks like something I might like to try...however, do you think that there is a way to make a list like this budget that is still decent? I mean, looking at it, it seems that the majority of the budget is in the fetches, duals and FoW...I'm just curious.
Counterspells could be force spike or mana tithe (works on critters) or spell pierce (doesn't work on critters, but does work otherwise). Basically, you need a few early counters to survive the early turns and then take over the board in the late game.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I do like the idea of using Mana Tithe, as having a two color deck you just don't always have that color open for what you need. I think I might proxie up a budget version and see if it's any good...doubtful, but you never know
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I don't think necessarily that you need aerie to pump the birds. I am just saying that the murder of crows as a 2 of works as a top end finisher that has a secondary useful function. it should be a given that feathers will fly in this sort of deck, so why not use it when you can?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
First, if you don't want to use MWS, Cockatrice is another great (and completely free) program for testing against others online. I have used it to test Angry Birds and there are always people online playing Legacy. Just google it to find it. I can't remember the exact website address.
Also, I use tappedout.net for play testing as well. They have a very nice online app for goldfishing or even play testing decks against each other if you've got a friend with you who is willing to play a few virtual games of magic with you.
Purchasing magic cards is not always inexpensive so I spend a lot of my time play testing through the above means to get a feel for how a deck performs before I purchase the cards. Actually proxying a deck is a serious pain in the neck, IMHO.
Hope this is helpful!
BGSpanish InquisitionGB
GFood Chain ElvesG
WUAngry BirdsUW
BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
I see. So, Opposition wouldn't work here...but, the Island Sanctuary/Meekstone/whatever would probably be better. It sounds like that $70 dollar budget build MadcatSowega posted earlier is my best option, right now..then tweak as needed...speaking off...
@MadcatSowega: yeah, I hear you about the testing vs. theory...I'm just the type of guy that likes to try and look at as many of the possibilities first, then test the ones I like the best.
@LokiSukaido, I totally understand. I like looking at all angles too. Why not throw a theoretical deck list together that's built the way you would like to see your deck built, post it on here and we can help you tweak it for competitiveness?
BGSpanish InquisitionGB
GFood Chain ElvesG
WUAngry BirdsUW
BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
Do you have any suggestions on how to fine tune/improve my list beyond including obvious, exceptionally expensive cards? I feel like I've had MTG writer's block recently with this deck. I know that it can be better, I'm just having a hard time figuring out how to accomplish that.
BGSpanish InquisitionGB
GFood Chain ElvesG
WUAngry BirdsUW
BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
I don't know about it, but if you can swing it with the island sanctuary engine, then maybe luminarch ascension has a place. You can go a lot of turns without being damaged.
I think I mentioned it earlier, but rootwater thief might be solid against combo, if you can stall them long enough.
I know this deck rags on aggro, but one thing I have to say I love is a card called somnophore. I'd only run two at most, but one of these going and it's gg for any aggro player.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
2 Seaside Haven
2 Saprazzan Skerry
2 Remote Farm
7 Island
7 Plains
4 Thrummingbird
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Augury Owl
3 Aven Mindsensor
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 Pride of the Clouds
3 Soulcatcher's Aerie
3 Parallax Wave
3 Parallax Tide
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
The Sky Hussiar / Island Sanctuary interaction is really crucial to the deck. Nobody likes to see Squadron Hawks come down. Especially with a Skyscape Familiar out. The only thing is that this deck doesn't provide a whole lot of visible presure. While it's great in the sense that we can get a few swings in early without the opponent realizing, it seems to be that they will continue to play their game without worrying about ours...I dunno if it's just me, though.
With that being said, weltkrieg, you mentioned Aether Vial before. Do you think that would be enough to add to up the power of the deck? Or would we then need to start adding other silly stuff to make that work?
Which brings up another question...Could I get away with playing a sort of budget U/W controlish deck using the Spiketails and cheap flyers with the Sanctuary draw engine and have it be somewhat competative? I know this is for Angry Birds, but just thinking of cheating in a Spiketail or something that counters stuff might be a nice budget alternative to FoW.
EDIT: Just realized that it might just be better to go Vial Fish if I wanted to cheat in creatures that can counter stuff...what do you think?