One of my casual buds, an avid Modern player, asked us an interesting question the other night.
Why aren't these two played together anywhere a-la Splinter Twin / Saheeli-Cat fashion?
With a single other creature in play on your side, these hit and you get infinite Dualcasters to do with as you see fit..
Has this ever seen play? If not, why not? Is it just too fragile or something? In two colors that can dig for pieces and can protect the combo w/countermagic.
I can't remember ever seeing this anywhere and now I'm (just like him) wondering why. I thought it was a pretty sweet little combo.
For what it's worth, Twinflame is probably better for this than Cackling Counterpart because of haste. Still, you need to keep a 1 toughness creature alive or your combo goes kaput. Maybe not terribly hard in a blue shell, but also probably not as easy as you think. It's such a shaky combo that you'd be better off to play pretty much any legacy combo deck over this. By all means, I think you should test it...I don't play legacy and I could be entirely wrong.
I'm guessing the answer is "because you need a second creature to even cast Cackling Counterpart in the first place." There's a significant difference between the ease of firing a two-piece combo and a three-piece one, even if the third piece is very nonspecific.
The Twinflame dealie is even monocolor, though - hmm...
There are simply a lot of better 2-card combos. In fact, this isn't even a proper 2 card combo because it needs additional board presence, while Twin and CopyCat can win on the spot on an empty board. It's also much more mana intensive, as the other two combos could play pieces on separate turns, while this demands playing two 3-drops on the same turn. Twin's reign in modern was defined by how risky it was to tap out on turn 3 against certain decks, but this doesn't have that pressure. The biggest strike against this combo is that, despite dropping some of the advantages of the other two combos, it still shares many of their weaknesses. A better question would be to ask why this particular combo is worthwhile compared to the others, other than being different for the sake of being different.
That's all true but the more immediate problem is its not modern legal.
Absolutely! That's why I am asking in the Legacy forum.
There really isn't any incentive in Legacy to make it more playable than what it would be if DM were in Modern. If anything, stiffer competition and stronger answers make it less worthwhile.
Because dualcaster mage costs 1RR instead of 1R. If it cost 1R there'd be a snapcaster/dualcaster combo deck. The mana cost is just too high and awkward.
I've been over and over trying to build with this guy he just costs too much mana.
Why aren't these two played together anywhere a-la Splinter Twin / Saheeli-Cat fashion?
With a single other creature in play on your side, these hit and you get infinite Dualcasters to do with as you see fit..
Has this ever seen play? If not, why not? Is it just too fragile or something? In two colors that can dig for pieces and can protect the combo w/countermagic.
Unlike Twin and Saheeli-Cat (neither of which see much play at all in Legacy), it doesn't win the game on the spot. It just gives you a ton of creatures and then you have to pass the turn and hope your opponent doesn't do anything in the intervening turn to thwart you (such as a Terminus or simply winning the game).
Beyond that, any 2-card combo has to compete with Show and Tell and this is much more fragile. Show and Tell only requires you resolve the titular card rather than resolve two cards, dodges removal spells much better, and has built-in redundancy (you can throw in an Emrakul or Griselbrand). Not only that, it requires only one Blue mana, allowing you to use Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors to ramp, which you can't really do for this.
I can't remember ever seeing this anywhere and now I'm (just like him) wondering why. I thought it was a pretty sweet little combo. [/quote]
and requires (at the very least) a live creature, and 7-8 non black mana or DCM/CC/FoW+blue discard in hand
In a format where games can end anywhere from Turn 0 to turn 3 consistently, this would require at least turn 4 or 5 even with the nut-draw and no hand disruption coming in.
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Modern! Dredge RBG
Modern! Burn (RW, RWG, RBG , RB ... what can I say, I like variety in my BBQ )
Legacy! Burn RW
EDH! Uril the Miststalker RWG
I can see the combo being Plan B in a UR tempo shell. Loaded up with 4x Snap 4xDual 2-3x Cackling and the usual UR good stuff and go from there. It's not a combo for a deck to commit to because it's not that good.
I can see the combo being Plan B in a UR tempo shell. Loaded up with 4x Snap 4xDual 2-3x Cackling and the usual UR good stuff and go from there. It's not a combo for a deck to commit to because it's not that good.
Dualcaster Mage is a justifiable creature to run in tempo. Cackling Counterpart is definitely not. When it was in standard, I built a deck around the spell, and it was still horrible.
Why aren't these two played together anywhere a-la Splinter Twin / Saheeli-Cat fashion?
With a single other creature in play on your side, these hit and you get infinite Dualcasters to do with as you see fit..
Has this ever seen play? If not, why not? Is it just too fragile or something? In two colors that can dig for pieces and can protect the combo w/countermagic.
I can't remember ever seeing this anywhere and now I'm (just like him) wondering why. I thought it was a pretty sweet little combo.
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The Twinflame dealie is even monocolor, though - hmm...
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Absolutely! That's why I am asking in the Legacy forum.
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There really isn't any incentive in Legacy to make it more playable than what it would be if DM were in Modern. If anything, stiffer competition and stronger answers make it less worthwhile.
I've been over and over trying to build with this guy he just costs too much mana.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Unlike Twin and Saheeli-Cat (neither of which see much play at all in Legacy), it doesn't win the game on the spot. It just gives you a ton of creatures and then you have to pass the turn and hope your opponent doesn't do anything in the intervening turn to thwart you (such as a Terminus or simply winning the game).
Beyond that, any 2-card combo has to compete with Show and Tell and this is much more fragile. Show and Tell only requires you resolve the titular card rather than resolve two cards, dodges removal spells much better, and has built-in redundancy (you can throw in an Emrakul or Griselbrand). Not only that, it requires only one Blue mana, allowing you to use Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors to ramp, which you can't really do for this.
I can't remember ever seeing this anywhere and now I'm (just like him) wondering why. I thought it was a pretty sweet little combo. [/quote]
This combo is
In a format where games can end anywhere from Turn 0 to turn 3 consistently, this would require at least turn 4 or 5 even with the nut-draw and no hand disruption coming in.
Modern! Burn (RW, RWG, RBG , RB ... what can I say, I like variety in my BBQ )
Legacy! Burn RW
EDH! Uril the Miststalker RWG
Dualcaster Mage is a justifiable creature to run in tempo. Cackling Counterpart is definitely not. When it was in standard, I built a deck around the spell, and it was still horrible.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
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