Did any card currently on the reserve list crater in price before 2011? I ask, because while I can't name which ones, I know there was either a judge promo or a FTV version of a card on the reserve list and it caused them to make this change:
A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.
That probably referred to Phyrexian Negator, which was in one of those duel decks, or Wheel of Fortune which got a foil printing which kinda contravened the Reserved List.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
That probably referred to Phyrexian Negator, which was in one of those duel decks, or Wheel of Fortune which got a foil printing which kinda contravened the Reserved List.
Oh my freaking ****, Wheel of Fortune got a foil reprint?! I love that card. One of the first degenerate cards I figured out how to play. That card made for some bonkers plays, especially against a particular IcyMine deck back in the day.
It's depressing they're asking almost $300 for it though
There's another solution: If people stop playing magic, the demand for reserved cards will fall so much that they'll be worth pennies! Well, a boycott might be a way to send a message, but there's no way to facilitate it on such a large scale when they haven't actually done anything illegal.
Or, they could make a new rule that says "If a land would require you to pay 2 life or otherwise come into play tapped, you pay 0 life instead." Then, all those shock lands like overgrown tomb become dual lands.
People playing a game doesn't change it's collectability. An investment into a collectible is just that, an investment. All that is likely to accomplish is a slower moving ceiling.
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I've seen someone posted a brilliant solution somewhere.
Print official proxy of reserved list cards that only valid during a particular GP or pro tour.
Players must preorder those proxy before the tournament,
QR codes can be printed on the card for judges to validate them during deck check.
For example, Wizards can sell proxy underground sea at $10 each. They can make a lot of money running a legacy GP, and the price of the real underground sea won't drop a lot. If players want to play a legacy deck for long time, they better buy the real dual lands.
My "Reserved Masters" is the reductio ad absurdum example to illustrate the point. Of course any real reserved list reprint policy would manifest in many sets over the course of many years. As I'm confident you'd agree, this would result in many more players participating in older formats over time while not undermining the confidence the collectors have in the value of their collections.
It really just boils down to a problem of messaging on Wizards part.
Except this is what they don't want. They know Legacy, Vintage, EDH (and even Modern) are more divese/fun formats then standard, They are "long term" formats. buy once and done, It sucks people away from standard (their cash cow). I have never met someone who plays legacy competively (or vintage for that matter) that also enjoy and regularly plays T2 Standard. After you have the main stables (duels, fetches, waists, FOW ect) you can basicly switch up decks pretty cheap and still play in a much higher powered setting. Most (not all but most) Eternal decks are fairly modular in that alot of cards are similar across the board, example most blue decks will run brainstorm, Most white decks will run PTE/STP Most Black decks will run tutor or ritual, Their are some that break this mold but only few. Once you are in Legacy/Vintage (and yes now modern too) You don't go back to heavy compeative standard, They want to keep as many people in the standard wheel as long as possible. Standard is where they make money.
If that happens wizards is going under. People play eternal formats because they don't rotate and are simply better experiences. Forcing people to play into wizards cash cow of standard would be proof that they have lost faith in their own product. They handle standard poorly enough, ruining superior formats is not something I want to see.
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I just think the reserve list hate is irrational. It's about entitlement and jealousy. It's about the sticker shock of seeing the price of a Beta BGS 9.5 Lotus and thinking "wow that's crazy"
Wizards already has Modern and Standard. And it's been clear for a long time now that Modern is really the eternal format that Wizards wants to move forward with. Wizards has total control of the pricing market of Modern because they can simply reprint any card within modern. Modern is a slower format than legacy, cheaper to get in, and less powerful, meaning more cards get to see play.
I love legacy. But the simple fact of the matter is we don't need many cards from each new set. The power curve is so high that in order for each new set to be truly interactive with legacy, they're going to grossly up the power level of cards. This means that pandering to the jealousy and entitlement of seeing high priced dual lands, and for what? To support a format that regularly has turn 3 kills? To build around a format with a level of power orders of magnitude beyond standard today? To completely uproot the pace of new sets simply to pander to some 20 year old cards from a bygone era?
I don't want Wizards to balance around vintage or legacy. The future of magic is a slower more interactive game. Wizards to their credit understands that.
Here's the point.
If Wizards isn't going to go out of their way to build the future of magic around legacy, then the issue of breaking up the reserve list becomes a moot point. It becomes ONLY about bringing down the price of dual lands and the power nine. That's it. Nobody is blaming the reserve list because the price of the rest of the junk on there is too high.
So then abolishing the RL is about getting power nine and duals into players' hands. Imagine Wizards does crash the price of ancestral recall to 5 dollars a copy. Great. Then what? You're going to build decks around ancestral? You want your playerbase to build decks around ancestral? You honestly want that level of power moving foward?
If it's not about supporting a format going forward, then its about the jealousy of duals and power. And frankly, many mtg players have already bought into legacy based on the trust of the reserve list. God knows how many times magic has almost died. And I'm sorry to say this but players are fair weather fans. They'll stick around for a few seasons before moving on. The collector who sunk thousands into mtg is the one here to stay. Maybe not with the fervor of the new player, but with loyalty that's lasted much longer.
I guarantee if Wizards takes out the reserve list, the following will happen. Wizards will blossom for a time, selling power like hotcakes. But it wont take long before the allure of every player owning cheap power and duals takes away the allure and mystique of the most powerful cards. Fair weather players will go their way in a few years, finding another hobby or video game in short time. The only difference is that this time, with the golden goose killed, the collection value of Wizards' most longtime fans decimated, and the mythos of mtg at an end, there will be no one left to keep the flame alive.
The only way Ancestral Recall can go down to $5 is if WotC quits printing Magic period and the playerbase experiences a complete and utter collapse. Reprinting such high dollar cards wouldn't put that much of a dent.
For example, TCGPlayer shows 19 different printings of Sol Ring ranging from, appoximately, $600 for Alpha to $3.27 for a Commander. Star City Games shows about 30ish printings for Shivan Dragon with a high of, approximately, $2,500 for an Alpha to about 50 cents for whatever printing.
Meanwhile, MTGGoldFish shows Ancestral Recall is about $4,200 for an Alpha printing. Even if they reprint the card in every single supplemental product for the next five years, I would be severely hard pressed to believe any OG printing of AR would lose more than half it's value.
I think you're misattributing the value of the RL cards (notably P9 and Duals) to collectors when the real fault lies with so-called investors and speculators. Collectors drive the value of over printed cards like Shivan and Sol into triple digits. That's the allure as you describe it. That's how it should be.
Investors and speculators drive the price of under printed cards into four digits. That's just scuzzy people parking their money into tax free assets. That is not how it should be.
I don't own hundred of copies of specific cards like some people do but I own a small number of them. And quite honestly, if my Duals are reprinted tomorrow then so be it. This should be a game, first and foremost. Collecting secondary.
The only way Ancestral Recall can go down to $5 is if WotC quits printing Magic period and the playerbase experiences a complete and utter collapse. Reprinting such high dollar cards wouldn't put that much of a dent.
For example, TCGPlayer shows 19 different printings of Sol Ring ranging from, appoximately, $600 for Alpha to $3.27 for a Commander. Star City Games shows about 30ish printings for Shivan Dragon with a high of, approximately, $2,500 for an Alpha to about 50 cents for whatever printing.
Meanwhile, MTGGoldFish shows Ancestral Recall is about $4,200 for an Alpha printing. Even if they reprint the card in every single supplemental product for the next five years, I would be severely hard pressed to believe any OG printing of AR would lose more than half it's value.
I think you're misattributing the value of the RL cards (notably P9 and Duals) to collectors when the real fault lies with so-called investors and speculators. Collectors drive the value of over printed cards like Shivan and Sol into triple digits. That's the allure as you describe it. That's how it should be.
Investors and speculators drive the price of under printed cards into four digits. That's just scuzzy people parking their money into tax free assets. That is not how it should be.
I don't own hundred of copies of specific cards like some people do but I own a small number of them. And quite honestly, if my Duals are reprinted tomorrow then so be it. This should be a game, first and foremost. Collecting secondary.
When I invest, I don't choose Magic.
Collectors do drive up the price of cards no doubt. But what I'm talking about here is Wizards's tools to bring down the price.
First, you're simply not being not being imaginative enough if you don't think Wizards can bring down the price of Ancestral to five dollars. Wizards can print any card into oblivion. Prices drop as supply is increased. Sure if they print ancestral as a judge foil, it wont hit 5. But if they reprint it every year in every set as a common, it will be.
What I'm talking about with respect to the reserve list is jealousy. And here is my conclusion why its about jealousy and not price more than anything.
Let's go through what you can do with the reserve list in place.
Can I play magic with the reserve list in place? Is anyone seriously arguing that they can't play magic with the reserve list there? No.
Can I play standard? Yes.
Can I play modern? Yes.
Can I play cube? Yes.
Can I play Kitchen Table? yes.
Can I play sealed deck?
Can I play Two Headed Giant, Emperor, Pauper, Peasant, Archenemy, Hordes? Yes yes yes yes yes.
Let's thread the needle.
Can I play legacy without Duals? Can I play Legacy for cheap? Yes. You don't HAVE to have duals to play legacy. That's been established countless times. No you don't get to play every legacy deck type if you can't afford it.
Can I play legacy cheaply? Yes. There are, as there have always been, cheaper alternative effective legacy decks. (I say cheap with respect to prices comparable to what you would see in modern)
Can I play Commander/EDH? Is anyone really arguing that you cannot play EDH without the reserve list?
Can I play with hundred plus junk cards on the reserve list that aren't worth a damn? YES
So let's take this old tired argument
>>>This should be a game, first and foremost. Collecting secondary.
I agree. Magic should be a game first and collecting secondary. So it is. Thats why you have standard, modern, and the endless other variants. You can play any type of magic you want except competitive Vintage, and certain decks within Legacy. But still for the people who want the reserve list gone, it still is not enough. It will never be enough.
You want wizards to make Magic being a game first and a collectible second.
Sure looks like that to me!!
Again, you get to play Cheaper legacy decks, modern, standard, sealed, cube, Commander, kitchen table, two headed giant, and more without the reserve list interfering. RL protects the tiny remaining cookie crumb of magic the gathering of people who have actually bought in. And still people claim, well its about magic being for players first.
Players already have everything. Everything except for one little sliver that comprises magic in the aggregate. And it's still not enough. They want the RL gone.
I just think the reserve list hate is irrational. It's about entitlement and jealousy. It's about the sticker shock of seeing the price of a Beta BGS 9.5 Lotus and thinking "wow that's crazy"
Wizards already has Modern and Standard. And it's been clear for a long time now that Modern is really the eternal format that Wizards wants to move forward with. Wizards has total control of the pricing market of Modern because they can simply reprint any card within modern. Modern is a slower format than legacy, cheaper to get in, and less powerful, meaning more cards get to see play.
I love legacy. But the simple fact of the matter is we don't need many cards from each new set. The power curve is so high that in order for each new set to be truly interactive with legacy, they're going to grossly up the power level of cards. This means that pandering to the jealousy and entitlement of seeing high priced dual lands, and for what? To support a format that regularly has turn 3 kills? To build around a format with a level of power orders of magnitude beyond standard today? To completely uproot the pace of new sets simply to pander to some 20 year old cards from a bygone era?
I don't want Wizards to balance around vintage or legacy. The future of magic is a slower more interactive game. Wizards to their credit understands that.
Here's the point.
If Wizards isn't going to go out of their way to build the future of magic around legacy, then the issue of breaking up the reserve list becomes a moot point. It becomes ONLY about bringing down the price of dual lands and the power nine. That's it. Nobody is blaming the reserve list because the price of the rest of the junk on there is too high.
So then abolishing the RL is about getting power nine and duals into players' hands. Imagine Wizards does crash the price of ancestral recall to 5 dollars a copy. Great. Then what? You're going to build decks around ancestral? You want your playerbase to build decks around ancestral? You honestly want that level of power moving foward?
If it's not about supporting a format going forward, then its about the jealousy of duals and power. And frankly, many mtg players have already bought into legacy based on the trust of the reserve list. God knows how many times magic has almost died. And I'm sorry to say this but players are fair weather fans. They'll stick around for a few seasons before moving on. The collector who sunk thousands into mtg is the one here to stay. Maybe not with the fervor of the new player, but with loyalty that's lasted much longer.
I guarantee if Wizards takes out the reserve list, the following will happen. Wizards will blossom for a time, selling power like hotcakes. But it wont take long before the allure of every player owning cheap power and duals takes away the allure and mystique of the most powerful cards. Fair weather players will go their way in a few years, finding another hobby or video game in short time. The only difference is that this time, with the golden goose killed, the collection value of Wizards' most longtime fans decimated, and the mythos of mtg at an end, there will be no one left to keep the flame alive.
I think it's a bit stuck up to think that only people who can afford reserve list staples that have tripled in less than a year should be allowed to play in a format. Ownership doesn't make you any better at a game... It's elitist to want to lock anyone out of said format.
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Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Just wanted to add my 2 cents since I read alot of things on this thread that ignore alot of the realities of business.
First off, the idea of a buyback program wouldnt ever work. Logistically it would be a nightmare. WoTC would have to hire a bunch of people to make it happen, which they are cheap as hell and dont even want to invest into card stock quality and barely play the MTGO team a fair wage. A program like that would require a ton of people and do you think that players really want to spend their time mailing cards back just to get credit, which I dont even know that could even work since again, would require more bodies, would require training, would require accounting for 1000s of peoples credits, dealing with mailing issues, just headaches lol...
Secondly, Magic neither is game or a collectible first, its a product that WoTC uses to make money. If there isnt money to be made, its not worth their time. And realistically, a collectible would make more profit than a game in the long term. Pokemon for the most part is collectable first, game second, and its outdoing Magic at the moment. The PSA market is red hot and WoTC is very behind on the curve in tapping into that market. WoTC prints from the valuts with bent foils for god sakes lol I dont think they care about collectors at all when you think about it.
And as for the reserved list, its probably the dumbest idea WoTC ever done, but it really goes back to how they are bad at making truely collectible products. If WoTC knew how to market things to collectors, then the reserve list would have never been made. WoTC's biggest mistake was reprinting everything to hell at the very start of the game with Chronicles and its not that Chronicles was a terrible set, but the cards looked like crap and looked just like the originals. They made the same mistakes with Pokemon with Base Set 2 in that they printed the same exact cards into oblivion without putting an effort to make the set stand out from the original.
Either way, the point is that they suck at marketability and I dont see that ever changing. The Reserve List isnt about appeasing collectors, its just a reminder that WoTC shouldnt reprint things since they cant do it right. Just look at Pokemon's rarity tier system if you want to know how to make cards that are for players and cards that are for collectors. Its not actually that hard, its just WoTC wont ever figure it out and uses the Reserve List as an excuse to continue their strange business model.
I think you have a very different concept of "what chronicles did" and "reprinting to hell" is.
Not sure what you mean by that. Chronicles was printed into oblivion and even had white borders which made the cards look even worse. Reprints can be good if done right providing there is more work than reprinting the same exact cards with no arts, reprints or reprints with new cards in a set.
Chronicles is what started the reserve list by having players in an uproar. The white border treatment was the answer to keeping the lower print black border cards collectible. But this was also the Wild West at this point. Everything being done is a first. It was the player reaction that WotC pandered to and now people wish they didn't.
Even now people say things like tarmogoyf is being reprinted it will tank in price, they're flooding the market. But they never flood the market. They don't follow the yugioh model of making a card common and ban it to tank prices. All wizards does is market as seen by the return of core as an example.
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Chronicales was massively printed though. Those cards have aged terribly since outside of Blood Moon most of the cards are worthless and that set is almost two decades old now. There is so much chronicles out there no less, as in most of the cards are worthless since the supply was through the roof.
I do not think WoTC has learned much from Chronicles though since they went on to make the same mistake with Pokemon with Base Set 2, which has also not aged the greatest. There is just very little consistency from them. Original Modern Masters was excellent, but then MM2 was garbage. Eternal Masters and MM 2015 were excellent, but then they followed it up with garbage like Iconic Masters and Masters 25. I dunno, I just dont get how a company that has been in business for 20+ years cant figure out how to market their product right by now.
i like the idea behind this. I have always felt that its just sad that some of the better cards for use in non standard formats are simply lost to the ages and only available to those with very disposable incomes.
I think that Wizards has to look at the revised list and create an alternative for multiple reasons. The amount of old cards like dual lands available dwindles every time one is sold. There are more behind plastic casings than being used in decks and that number is never going to go up.
If they printed a functional "Myth set" that could include 50 or so of the most requested cards and sell it like the anthology set.
in order to preserve the value of the reserved list they could give these cards altered borders and / or altered artwork.
Or... give them alternate names in general.
I understand them making a promise to the players in 1996 that they would put these cards on the reserved list but its been 22 years. i started playing in 1997 and even then dual lands were rare and pricey. If they have been holding on to these cards for 22 years and they havnt tried to get their money back out of them they are crazy.
The problem this leaves now is that you have entire play groups that just print their own dual lands. I've printed proxies of a couple dual lands for one deck. they were white on the back but in a sleeve they worked. And im not advocating for counterfeit cards but if the choice is paying $1,000.00 dollars for a card or paying $0.27 for one.. im going to take the cheap route. I wont pay more than 50 dollars for a single card. And i dont skimp out when building decks. I buy everything i need but i am forced to skimp out one 1 to 2 lands every deck because my deck would go from a 400 dollar deck to an 2400 dollar deck.. and um.. thanks but no thanks. I would gladly pay 50 to 80 dollars for a real dual land reprint and wizards could make a ton of money off those sets and do it in a way that protects investors. they just need to do it.
There is a rather naive assumption being made in this thread at the get go: That the people who would be holding reserved list cards play the game. What people do not realize is that these older cards on the RL are speculation targets that have become a component in many investment portfolios. For what reason would people who do not play the game want to trade in a graded Alpha lotus for a new lotus printed on crappy paper with a foil stamp? They own history in their hands: The new one is a mere game piece that the man will blame for the loss of value in his retirement asset.
This is the kind of situation that is making Hasbro lawyers skittish about attempting abolishing the RL. Wizards tried to dance around it with premium foil printings and it caused grumbling from the collectors. Honestly, my feeling is that the best answer is to just go do a death battle with the investors. They are worried about the companies reputation, but no one would think ill of wizards and Hasbro killing the RL. The people that matter are actually on their side in this and the people that do not are the ones that really are complaining about it.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't understand why WOTC would need to do this. All the legacy players I know said it's not dying because of the reserve list. Legacy players get one tournament every year or two, that's an indicator of a supported format right? I'm all for work arounds on the reserve list because I want would like to play with cards I don't own if this actually helps legacy sounds like a plus.
I think your idea would requires lot of work on the WOTC side. The first is obviously revising the reserve list to account for this. After that they would need to set up this whole program and carefully monitor it. They would need a fairly large incentive to commit this many resources.
I like racing cars.
I think its bull that i cant afford a formula 1 race car.
I think there should be a program started that makes formula 1 race cars available to everyone.
Or, you know, i do the kind of racecar driving i can afford, like renting time at a track and driving a tricked out monte carlo around for a few hours...
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My decks. Feel free to make suggestions. The Precious B___U___G___R___W
I don't know if anyone has ever seen or posted this video, but this particular lawyer directly addresses the reasoning behind why WotC painted themselves in a corner with the reserved list
However, this gave me an idea. WotC made that promise. What if...Hasbro simply dissolves WotC entirely? Hasbro was not the one that made that promise. Would they still have to uphold it?
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Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Oh my freaking ****, Wheel of Fortune got a foil reprint?! I love that card. One of the first degenerate cards I figured out how to play. That card made for some bonkers plays, especially against a particular Icy Mine deck back in the day.
It's depressing they're asking almost $300 for it though
Or, they could make a new rule that says "If a land would require you to pay 2 life or otherwise come into play tapped, you pay 0 life instead." Then, all those shock lands like overgrown tomb become dual lands.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Print official proxy of reserved list cards that only valid during a particular GP or pro tour.
Players must preorder those proxy before the tournament,
QR codes can be printed on the card for judges to validate them during deck check.
For example, Wizards can sell proxy underground sea at $10 each. They can make a lot of money running a legacy GP, and the price of the real underground sea won't drop a lot. If players want to play a legacy deck for long time, they better buy the real dual lands.
Except this is what they don't want. They know Legacy, Vintage, EDH (and even Modern) are more divese/fun formats then standard, They are "long term" formats. buy once and done, It sucks people away from standard (their cash cow). I have never met someone who plays legacy competively (or vintage for that matter) that also enjoy and regularly plays T2 Standard. After you have the main stables (duels, fetches, waists, FOW ect) you can basicly switch up decks pretty cheap and still play in a much higher powered setting. Most (not all but most) Eternal decks are fairly modular in that alot of cards are similar across the board, example most blue decks will run brainstorm, Most white decks will run PTE/STP Most Black decks will run tutor or ritual, Their are some that break this mold but only few. Once you are in Legacy/Vintage (and yes now modern too) You don't go back to heavy compeative standard, They want to keep as many people in the standard wheel as long as possible. Standard is where they make money.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Wizards already has Modern and Standard. And it's been clear for a long time now that Modern is really the eternal format that Wizards wants to move forward with. Wizards has total control of the pricing market of Modern because they can simply reprint any card within modern. Modern is a slower format than legacy, cheaper to get in, and less powerful, meaning more cards get to see play.
I love legacy. But the simple fact of the matter is we don't need many cards from each new set. The power curve is so high that in order for each new set to be truly interactive with legacy, they're going to grossly up the power level of cards. This means that pandering to the jealousy and entitlement of seeing high priced dual lands, and for what? To support a format that regularly has turn 3 kills? To build around a format with a level of power orders of magnitude beyond standard today? To completely uproot the pace of new sets simply to pander to some 20 year old cards from a bygone era?
I don't want Wizards to balance around vintage or legacy. The future of magic is a slower more interactive game. Wizards to their credit understands that.
Here's the point.
If Wizards isn't going to go out of their way to build the future of magic around legacy, then the issue of breaking up the reserve list becomes a moot point. It becomes ONLY about bringing down the price of dual lands and the power nine. That's it. Nobody is blaming the reserve list because the price of the rest of the junk on there is too high.
So then abolishing the RL is about getting power nine and duals into players' hands. Imagine Wizards does crash the price of ancestral recall to 5 dollars a copy. Great. Then what? You're going to build decks around ancestral? You want your playerbase to build decks around ancestral? You honestly want that level of power moving foward?
If it's not about supporting a format going forward, then its about the jealousy of duals and power. And frankly, many mtg players have already bought into legacy based on the trust of the reserve list. God knows how many times magic has almost died. And I'm sorry to say this but players are fair weather fans. They'll stick around for a few seasons before moving on. The collector who sunk thousands into mtg is the one here to stay. Maybe not with the fervor of the new player, but with loyalty that's lasted much longer.
I guarantee if Wizards takes out the reserve list, the following will happen. Wizards will blossom for a time, selling power like hotcakes. But it wont take long before the allure of every player owning cheap power and duals takes away the allure and mystique of the most powerful cards. Fair weather players will go their way in a few years, finding another hobby or video game in short time. The only difference is that this time, with the golden goose killed, the collection value of Wizards' most longtime fans decimated, and the mythos of mtg at an end, there will be no one left to keep the flame alive.
For example, TCGPlayer shows 19 different printings of Sol Ring ranging from, appoximately, $600 for Alpha to $3.27 for a Commander. Star City Games shows about 30ish printings for Shivan Dragon with a high of, approximately, $2,500 for an Alpha to about 50 cents for whatever printing.
Meanwhile, MTGGoldFish shows Ancestral Recall is about $4,200 for an Alpha printing. Even if they reprint the card in every single supplemental product for the next five years, I would be severely hard pressed to believe any OG printing of AR would lose more than half it's value.
I think you're misattributing the value of the RL cards (notably P9 and Duals) to collectors when the real fault lies with so-called investors and speculators. Collectors drive the value of over printed cards like Shivan and Sol into triple digits. That's the allure as you describe it. That's how it should be.
Investors and speculators drive the price of under printed cards into four digits. That's just scuzzy people parking their money into tax free assets. That is not how it should be.
I don't own hundred of copies of specific cards like some people do but I own a small number of them. And quite honestly, if my Duals are reprinted tomorrow then so be it. This should be a game, first and foremost. Collecting secondary.
When I invest, I don't choose Magic.
Collectors do drive up the price of cards no doubt. But what I'm talking about here is Wizards's tools to bring down the price.
First, you're simply not being not being imaginative enough if you don't think Wizards can bring down the price of Ancestral to five dollars. Wizards can print any card into oblivion. Prices drop as supply is increased. Sure if they print ancestral as a judge foil, it wont hit 5. But if they reprint it every year in every set as a common, it will be.
What I'm talking about with respect to the reserve list is jealousy. And here is my conclusion why its about jealousy and not price more than anything.
Let's go through what you can do with the reserve list in place.
Can I play magic with the reserve list in place? Is anyone seriously arguing that they can't play magic with the reserve list there? No.
Can I play standard? Yes.
Can I play modern? Yes.
Can I play cube? Yes.
Can I play Kitchen Table? yes.
Can I play sealed deck?
Can I play Two Headed Giant, Emperor, Pauper, Peasant, Archenemy, Hordes? Yes yes yes yes yes.
Let's thread the needle.
Can I play legacy without Duals? Can I play Legacy for cheap? Yes. You don't HAVE to have duals to play legacy. That's been established countless times. No you don't get to play every legacy deck type if you can't afford it.
Can I play legacy cheaply? Yes. There are, as there have always been, cheaper alternative effective legacy decks. (I say cheap with respect to prices comparable to what you would see in modern)
Can I play Commander/EDH? Is anyone really arguing that you cannot play EDH without the reserve list?
Can I play with hundred plus junk cards on the reserve list that aren't worth a damn? YES
So let's take this old tired argument
>>>This should be a game, first and foremost. Collecting secondary.
I agree. Magic should be a game first and collecting secondary. So it is. Thats why you have standard, modern, and the endless other variants. You can play any type of magic you want except competitive Vintage, and certain decks within Legacy. But still for the people who want the reserve list gone, it still is not enough. It will never be enough.
You want wizards to make Magic being a game first and a collectible second.
Sure looks like that to me!!
Again, you get to play Cheaper legacy decks, modern, standard, sealed, cube, Commander, kitchen table, two headed giant, and more without the reserve list interfering. RL protects the tiny remaining cookie crumb of magic the gathering of people who have actually bought in. And still people claim, well its about magic being for players first.
Players already have everything. Everything except for one little sliver that comprises magic in the aggregate. And it's still not enough. They want the RL gone.
I think it's a bit stuck up to think that only people who can afford reserve list staples that have tripled in less than a year should be allowed to play in a format. Ownership doesn't make you any better at a game... It's elitist to want to lock anyone out of said format.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
First off, the idea of a buyback program wouldnt ever work. Logistically it would be a nightmare. WoTC would have to hire a bunch of people to make it happen, which they are cheap as hell and dont even want to invest into card stock quality and barely play the MTGO team a fair wage. A program like that would require a ton of people and do you think that players really want to spend their time mailing cards back just to get credit, which I dont even know that could even work since again, would require more bodies, would require training, would require accounting for 1000s of peoples credits, dealing with mailing issues, just headaches lol...
Secondly, Magic neither is game or a collectible first, its a product that WoTC uses to make money. If there isnt money to be made, its not worth their time. And realistically, a collectible would make more profit than a game in the long term. Pokemon for the most part is collectable first, game second, and its outdoing Magic at the moment. The PSA market is red hot and WoTC is very behind on the curve in tapping into that market. WoTC prints from the valuts with bent foils for god sakes lol I dont think they care about collectors at all when you think about it.
And as for the reserved list, its probably the dumbest idea WoTC ever done, but it really goes back to how they are bad at making truely collectible products. If WoTC knew how to market things to collectors, then the reserve list would have never been made. WoTC's biggest mistake was reprinting everything to hell at the very start of the game with Chronicles and its not that Chronicles was a terrible set, but the cards looked like crap and looked just like the originals. They made the same mistakes with Pokemon with Base Set 2 in that they printed the same exact cards into oblivion without putting an effort to make the set stand out from the original.
Either way, the point is that they suck at marketability and I dont see that ever changing. The Reserve List isnt about appeasing collectors, its just a reminder that WoTC shouldnt reprint things since they cant do it right. Just look at Pokemon's rarity tier system if you want to know how to make cards that are for players and cards that are for collectors. Its not actually that hard, its just WoTC wont ever figure it out and uses the Reserve List as an excuse to continue their strange business model.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Not sure what you mean by that. Chronicles was printed into oblivion and even had white borders which made the cards look even worse. Reprints can be good if done right providing there is more work than reprinting the same exact cards with no arts, reprints or reprints with new cards in a set.
Even now people say things like tarmogoyf is being reprinted it will tank in price, they're flooding the market. But they never flood the market. They don't follow the yugioh model of making a card common and ban it to tank prices. All wizards does is market as seen by the return of core as an example.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I do not think WoTC has learned much from Chronicles though since they went on to make the same mistake with Pokemon with Base Set 2, which has also not aged the greatest. There is just very little consistency from them. Original Modern Masters was excellent, but then MM2 was garbage. Eternal Masters and MM 2015 were excellent, but then they followed it up with garbage like Iconic Masters and Masters 25. I dunno, I just dont get how a company that has been in business for 20+ years cant figure out how to market their product right by now.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I think that Wizards has to look at the revised list and create an alternative for multiple reasons. The amount of old cards like dual lands available dwindles every time one is sold. There are more behind plastic casings than being used in decks and that number is never going to go up.
If they printed a functional "Myth set" that could include 50 or so of the most requested cards and sell it like the anthology set.
in order to preserve the value of the reserved list they could give these cards altered borders and / or altered artwork.
Or... give them alternate names in general.
I understand them making a promise to the players in 1996 that they would put these cards on the reserved list but its been 22 years. i started playing in 1997 and even then dual lands were rare and pricey. If they have been holding on to these cards for 22 years and they havnt tried to get their money back out of them they are crazy.
The problem this leaves now is that you have entire play groups that just print their own dual lands. I've printed proxies of a couple dual lands for one deck. they were white on the back but in a sleeve they worked. And im not advocating for counterfeit cards but if the choice is paying $1,000.00 dollars for a card or paying $0.27 for one.. im going to take the cheap route. I wont pay more than 50 dollars for a single card. And i dont skimp out when building decks. I buy everything i need but i am forced to skimp out one 1 to 2 lands every deck because my deck would go from a 400 dollar deck to an 2400 dollar deck.. and um.. thanks but no thanks. I would gladly pay 50 to 80 dollars for a real dual land reprint and wizards could make a ton of money off those sets and do it in a way that protects investors. they just need to do it.
This is the kind of situation that is making Hasbro lawyers skittish about attempting abolishing the RL. Wizards tried to dance around it with premium foil printings and it caused grumbling from the collectors. Honestly, my feeling is that the best answer is to just go do a death battle with the investors. They are worried about the companies reputation, but no one would think ill of wizards and Hasbro killing the RL. The people that matter are actually on their side in this and the people that do not are the ones that really are complaining about it.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Would that be a viable alternative to abolishing the reserved list altogether and reprinting the cards?
I think your idea would requires lot of work on the WOTC side. The first is obviously revising the reserve list to account for this. After that they would need to set up this whole program and carefully monitor it. They would need a fairly large incentive to commit this many resources.
I think its bull that i cant afford a formula 1 race car.
I think there should be a program started that makes formula 1 race cars available to everyone.
Or, you know, i do the kind of racecar driving i can afford, like renting time at a track and driving a tricked out monte carlo around for a few hours...
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
http://epicstream.com/videos/JakeVyper/Lawyer-Makes-Video-About-MTG-Reserved-List-and-Whether-or-Not-It-Would-Be-Legal-For-Wizards-to-Change-It
Basically, it just can't be done by WotC.
However, this gave me an idea. WotC made that promise. What if...Hasbro simply dissolves WotC entirely? Hasbro was not the one that made that promise. Would they still have to uphold it?