It's kinda like infect. I'm nearly 100% certain a UG infect deck could run better but the theory behind my madness is, show up with something no one has ever seen before and maybe you can roll over a small tournament.
Catch everyone where their pants off and for pride's sake you can claim you didn't have to use FoW or brainstorm
The issue will be that Hatred decks lose to the same cards Infect decks lose to, but are less resilient against the weaker answers and both less consistent and less explosive when the opponent doesn't have the right answer.
Essentially so. I guess I'm nostalgic - I got into this game around the Urza block and I miss that archetype
The issue will be that Hatred decks lose to the same cards Infect decks lose to, but are less resilient against the weaker answers and both less consistent and less explosive when the opponent doesn't have the right answer.
That's what it feels like. I'm just curious if some ingenuity can conquer the status quo, for at least one night.
Maybe something like that? You could also have Spell Pierce and/or FoW in the SB for added protection.
Basically you cantrip and discard until you can set up Hatred @ 9 on a 1/1 evasive Infect creature FTW. Phyrexian Crusader can be useful being pro-Bolt and pro-StP.
The nice thing about such a list is you can 1-shot people with Hatred if you've sufficiently disrupted them, but you can also just grind them out slowly with evasive Infect.
Might need a strong anti-aggro SB plan, since Delver variants probably tear this apart.
Please don't say the words "splash red or white for creature removal" when your main color is black/the best color for it especially in a deck that's supposed to be based on hatred/you give your opponent, say, 4 life off swords to plowshares is a bad idea when it doesn't make hatred lethal since they have a higher life unless you go for infect. But if you're going for infect you're running a pretty suboptimal build as UG infect is an established archetype with a pretty streamlined list at this point/hard to make it better. Hatred has a slew of issues number one I can think of is lightning bolt, 2nd being spell pierce and countermagic in general as force of will resolving on a hatred with X = some large number is a blowout.
True-name nemesis with hatred sounds absolutely hilarious. Probably not that good but hilarious.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
The problem with TNN + Hatred (e.g. X=17)
-still die to Lightning Bolt (not the TNN, but YOU)
-still loses to FoW and Daze and Spell Pierce and friends
Basically, you can protect your creature but it doesn't offset the major drawbacks of paying > 12 life. So I don't think it's a good plan.
At least if you go Infect, you are never paying more than X=9, which means it is somewhat less of a blowout if it doesn't connect. If you do it on a non-Infect creature, you are committing so many more life to the plan that the risk factor goes way up. It would be like talking about FoW with pitching one blue card vs a FoW where you had to pitch your whole hand...
That doesn't mean that Hatred Infect would be better than UG Infect (just like Hatred TNN wouldn't be better than Esper Stoneblade), but rather that Infect should work better with Hatred than other things work with Hatred.
Also Hatred decks can run ample discard, which offsets the risk of counterspells.
Please don't say the words "splash red or white for creature removal" when your main color is black/the best color for it
When has Black ever been the best color for creature removal in Legacy? The best removal since Day 1 has been non-Black cards. No creature removal in Black compares to Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt, unless we're counting discard as removal.
I literally just described why plow is bad in this deck and as for bolt bolt doesn't kill goyf while plenty of black spells do. Liliana of the veil is a sick, sick magic card and should be a 4 of in this deck with ease since there's already 4 dark rituals as turn 1 liliana is tough for any deck to beat. We do not want to splash colors as it makes us more vulnerable for very small gains.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I literally just described why plow is bad in this deck and as for bolt bolt doesn't kill goyf while plenty of black spells do. Liliana of the veil is a sick, sick magic card and should be a 4 of in this deck with ease since there's already 4 dark rituals as turn 1 liliana is tough for any deck to beat. We do not want to splash colors as it makes us more vulnerable for very small gains.
My point is that Black isn't the best color for removal.
Now, the idea that Swords and Bolt aren't good enough to warrant splashing for is another matter, but Black's not the best at removal.
I know. Its 5cc. If the creature dies or the spell gets countered you mine as well scoop but hear me out,
What if you packed a deck full of mana acceleration, hand disruption, removal, you know the typical well rounded deck.
Could one do this?
Off the top of my head I was thinking of those old school shadow cards like dauthi slayer then throw in some:
Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Deathrite Shaman
Hymn
Thoughtseize
*Insert creature removal and or Abrupt Decay
*Insert Fast and efficient creatures
Final ingredients: pact of negation and Serum Powder - Fish for a god hand with a little dash of protection
Glass canon - you bet your ass.
It's kinda like infect. I'm nearly 100% certain a UG infect deck could run better but the theory behind my madness is, show up with something no one has ever seen before and maybe you can roll over a small tournament.
Catch everyone where their pants off and for pride's sake you can claim you didn't have to use FoW or brainstorm
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Essentially so. I guess I'm nostalgic - I got into this game around the Urza block and I miss that archetype
That's what it feels like. I'm just curious if some ingenuity can conquer the status quo, for at least one night.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Hatred seems best when cast on something like Plague Stinger, Inkmoth Nexus or Blighted Agent.
Here's a version to get started:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Peat Bog
3 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Blighted Agent
4 Plague Stinger
3 Phyrexian Crusader
//Spells: 23
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ghastly Demise
4 Hatred
2 Dig Through Time
Maybe something like that? You could also have Spell Pierce and/or FoW in the SB for added protection.
Basically you cantrip and discard until you can set up Hatred @ 9 on a 1/1 evasive Infect creature FTW. Phyrexian Crusader can be useful being pro-Bolt and pro-StP.
The nice thing about such a list is you can 1-shot people with Hatred if you've sufficiently disrupted them, but you can also just grind them out slowly with evasive Infect.
Might need a strong anti-aggro SB plan, since Delver variants probably tear this apart.
Interesting. I'm thinking this could be the optimal way to do it but I also like TNN mention.
I wonder if u can go greedy and splash red or white for some creature removal.
On a side note... could one imagine a lightning bolt that has infect?
Vintage: Dredge | Legacy: Burn, Goblins, Soldier | Standard: Mono-Red Aggro
Commander: Nicol Bolas, Sliver Overlord, Rafiq
Casual: Selesnya Saproling Smackdown, Izzet Labs, Rebel
Played since June 2004, mostly inactive June 2011 to March 2018
Other usernames include AlanFromRochester, homerthebeerbaron
MTG checklists from Alpha to Ravnica Allegiance - https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/other-magic-products/third-party-products/805324-checklists-for-everything-from-alpha-to-ravnica
True-name nemesis with hatred sounds absolutely hilarious. Probably not that good but hilarious.
Currently Playing:
Retired
-still die to Lightning Bolt (not the TNN, but YOU)
-still loses to FoW and Daze and Spell Pierce and friends
Basically, you can protect your creature but it doesn't offset the major drawbacks of paying > 12 life. So I don't think it's a good plan.
At least if you go Infect, you are never paying more than X=9, which means it is somewhat less of a blowout if it doesn't connect. If you do it on a non-Infect creature, you are committing so many more life to the plan that the risk factor goes way up. It would be like talking about FoW with pitching one blue card vs a FoW where you had to pitch your whole hand...
That doesn't mean that Hatred Infect would be better than UG Infect (just like Hatred TNN wouldn't be better than Esper Stoneblade), but rather that Infect should work better with Hatred than other things work with Hatred.
Also Hatred decks can run ample discard, which offsets the risk of counterspells.
Currently Playing:
Retired
My point is that Black isn't the best color for removal.
Now, the idea that Swords and Bolt aren't good enough to warrant splashing for is another matter, but Black's not the best at removal.
I second that. Black has great selective removal aka Murderous Cut, Dismember, Disfigure, Ghastly Demise
Meanwhile Swords takes care of anything and everything.
But I was referring to the infect list posted soooooooo life gain wouldn't mean anything