I've also been playing Magic since '95, and the game has dramatically shifted in terms of the gameplay we see in constructed formats today. I understand the rock and hard place Wizards is in with the reserve list, but they still manage to print cards with Legacy applications and throw us a bone fairly frequently. Several different decks play Abrupt Decay. Various decks playing Liliana of the Veil. Blue getting Delver and Snapcaster. Burn gets Eidolon of the Great Revel and Young Pyromancer. Hell, even Storm got Past in Flames and Lands got Thespian's Stage.
Standard is a vastly different landscape than it once was, but even it's not so bad. I got used to no interrupts, no mana burn, no floating mana through phases, and my artifacts stopped being brown. But you know what? I'm playing a standard format where I can summon freaking Elder Dragons again. That's pretty cool. I like playing standard right now because I can be part of the ebb and flow of Magic's evolution, while Legacy keeps me linked to the past and the types of gameplay I grew up with. My issue with Modern is that it's neither though it tries to be both. Standard isn't so bad, and if you do hate it, just wait for rotation and the landscape will shift again. My only gripe with Standard is the occasional printing of "Everyone play 4x of this card until something better comes along" (Looking at you Siege Rhino, Thragtusk, Delver, JTMS, Bloodbraid Elf/Blightning.......) and that, to me, is what makes the format feel stale sometimes. Losing because your opponent peeled 3 Siege Rhinos or whatever card is running rampant feels worse than losing to just about any other kind of deck honestly, but then that's why they're so heavily played. I like standard landscapes that don't have auto 4x includes in every deck that can possibly play them.
Still, right now as Rhino's grip on standard loosens, I can play freaking elder dragons, and that's pretty sweet in my book. Legacy, thus far, has not shown me a deck where Vaevictis Asmadi is a viable option.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Legacy makes a number of types of people happy, for many reasons.
It is a format where a number of fringe strategies exist that are completely or mostly unviable elsewhere- mainly prison strategies with an emphasis land denial, and certain low land combo decks. The former exist, especially in Europe, in decks like Pox, Lands and Stax variants, the latter in decks like , Manaless dredge and Belcher
More widespread the format has a number of denial effects- such as Stifle, Port and Wasteland- that are not seen elsewhere, making denial of mana a serious aspect of many decks, if not the sole focus.
It has a number of fringe t1 win decks, again not replicated in Modern.
All of this goes some way as to why Legacy should be supported. Additionally many find it great fun.
On the other hand to Wizards Legacy players are not highly valuable - they do not make them much money as they need and rip less, maybe the odd Commander product, maybe more if they draft. They are useful though - if only to demonstrate to new players that you can still be playing after 20 years, and because older players playing still attract interest of younger ones.
The most value Legacy players have is them being customers of big singles companies. People may say WOTC get no cash from SCG et al, but in reality that they benefit- the relationship is symbiotic- and SCG et al provide a lot of sponsorship and profile which drives regular booster sales. Magic is effectively a pyramid scheme- those in at the start who kept cards made the most, those in most recently looking to quit will find themselves out of pocket. The value of older cards is huge, and as long as Tabernacles cost £300 - 500+ (x1.6 for US$), then there will be traders making big bucks off that type of card. Legacy helps drive that market, and as new players look to buy into the format those prices will increase.
Mtg is very different now- its all about what Wizards think new players like- and in that respect yes, the game is dead. But Legacy will continue to give the old ways life for the foreseeable future, and if anything Modern may semi-fail in the eyes of the masses as it becomes a number of evergreen linear strategies that are rarely added to for fear of breaking Standard and "goodstuff" decks that, no matter what the colour combos used, all seem to be identical, and which can never get hated on as the only way to hate on such decks is to punish mana bases, which won't happen.
Wotc is making the smart choice, bottom line it would be stuiped for them to cater to us (and by extention vintage players as well). say they print up "Legacy the block" loaded with legacy playable s and reprints enough card diversification to make several different T1/T1.5 decks, death to the reserve list! , Say they printed it at enough volumes that everyone could get their hands on it (like a normal standard set unlimited print run for 2 years), This will likely be one of the best selling blocks of all time, TRUE! however it will deal enormous damage to their client base, once you have afew legacy decks you don't need to purchase more cards, This means WOTC has very few choices, either a) print more powerful cards so we keep buying, (not practical in a legacy setting with the power level as high as it is, or b) print brutal hate, but even if they did this, they are shooting themselves in the foot long term, or c) they ban cards from the format so they can sell new cards, this defeats the main goal of Legacy which is to allow the best of the best to thrive. This is the definition of massive short term gain for horrible long term loss.
So as a long time, on and off casual player (started playing when odyssey was out), who also happens to be pretty young (22), I feel like my perspective on legacy might be a bit different... I started playing semi competitively when scars of Mirrodin was out, and pretty much went into building standard, and modern, as soon as the format became a thing.
I built my first legacy deck a year ago (dredge), and have enjoyed playing legacy with my playgroup and at my lgs for a while now. I still play standard/modern, but recently I decided to make a second legacy deck (elves), and pretty much make legacy my primary format. I know the format isn't supported by wizards, but I think that's a good thing.
I find the lack of competitive events makes legacy players, even playing degenerate magic, much more relaxed than other players in other formats. Even standard fnms vs legacy are a huge difference, around me I've noticed standard players dropping as soon as they can't prize, while legacy players play it out. I think the cost and complexity of the format makes sure people actually really enjoy their decks. It's also nice to know that pretty much everyone I see on Fridays, I'll see next Friday. The feel of a home grown community is what makes legacy appealing. Also, in pretty much every legacy event i've played in beyond fnm, when i ask my opponent 'so why did you decide to sleeve up x?" their reply is usually, 'well, it's my favourite legacy deck,' or 'i've played it for ages'.
Now, you might wonder why I feel modern isn't the same? To be honest, around here, modern sort of is similar. But as modern gets more popular, it's getting a bit... for lack of a better word, scummy. Personally, I'm fine with having standard and modern be creature centric. It's a bit of a departure, but there are still decks in standard and modern that comprise of almost no creatures. Those changes are fine, we're still playing magic and it can be super refreshing to play something more like chess than poker. What I don't like is how everything has become a race for the current tech, the chase mythics, etc. My biggest problem with modern is actually my biggest gripe with wizards in general: the new way they market their product, and the kind of community that fosters.
Right before gp Toronto, my fb feed was full of people looking to buy ojutais for $40. Standard is wonderfully diverse, but it takes so much effort to keep up, and it seems like people switch decks weekly. I've seen elements of the same thing in modern, with people looking to borrow a "t1 modern deck" for one tournament. The full spoiler for mm2 has only reaffirmed my suspicions that wizards is going to be pushing this element of magic, that "chase the golden ticket," "build the best deck this week," mentality that pervades standard into modern. I don't want a part in that, and I think that has been the most annoying element of modern magic. I hate how it really brings a negative vibe to the community, and i feel like i have to partially blame wizards for the way they market it.
TLDR: I think legacy players undervalue the fact that the 'smallness' of the format is an appeal in it's own right. It does not necessarily stop newer players from coming to the format (like myself), but it can be a check at the door for the buy more, win more, attitude that I see at a lot of the competitive standard events, and much less at the legacy events. As as the new direction wizards has taken with the game, i actually don't mind it at all, what i mind is the new way they market it and the kind of community that creates. I guess i'm just not enough of a spike.
Have any of you seen the short vice magic documentary? They compare the vintage scene with the tournament scene. And I can't help but agree with what the vintage player says: magic is about the community first. I would much rather play an unsupported format like that than get wizards support and have it turn into the next standard/modern/God knows what.
Honestly, based on card value and reprint structure I think Modern is a format that is much more at risk of dying than any other. It has an arbitrary starting point and while it has expensive cards, those cards can be easily devalued by multiple reprints. I understand that they need cards in the market to grow the format but if growth doesn't match the growing card pool, card prices will tank eventually and there will be a mass exodus from the format. I know a lot of people complain about the reserve list but in my mind it is the only thing WotC can do to ensure MTG will exist in the future. I honestly wish they'd consider expanding it and then take the game in different directions.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Allowing proxies in Legacy would benefit collectors a lot and drive collector demand for harder to get cards. If more people played Legacy there would be more cards made for the format. Allowing proxies would increase the cost of a lot of the cards, just as Modern and Commander made cards more expensive..
For the record, pretty much everything we've seen so far from Magic:Origins has been awful.
Here was a real opportunity to bring back some iconic spells considered "too powerful" or "unfun" from the beginnings of Magic.
Wallet staying closed WotC.
I never understand how people can write off a set 1/3rd into the spoiler. While it probably *won't* happen, there's still plenty of opportunity for an iconic spell reprint, whatever you think that is.
The only thing I like about Magic Origins so far is the way they are doing the spoilers. For example: When they spoiled Modern Masters 2015, they spoiled all the good cards and got everyone so excited day after day and then they drop the other 2/3 of the set which was utter crap for a $10 pack! They should of spoiled it with a mix of "Good & Bad" C,U,R, and Mythics along the way like they are doing here in Magic Origins; with the exception that they are holding back all the good cards and only spoiling the trash. Hmm... I guess they did the exact opposite... Well, Maybe on the next set they will have it figured out to mix it up more.
I anticipated that Magic Origins would be more of a kick off to the new way sets will rotate in and out and start it off with a dynamite set since the set name means "beginning, first stage of existence", like a new era of magic. I see now that they are using it to represent the beginning of some of the planes-walkers. Cool idea, but the only one that looks any good atm is Gideon. For the most part you have to spend too much effort to get a planes-walker out of them, and very easy for your opponent to prevent that from happening. If you play a regular planes-walker you at least get to use one of the abilities right away before your opponent can cast Hero's downfall or one of a few other cards as an instant to destroy it. You get something for the 1 for 1 change in that example, but these new apprentice planes-walkers for the most part will be killed off quickly and you got nothing extra. Some of them you might even be playing a few other cards in the deck to basically help flip them. playing a 3 cost nissa that is a 2/2 creature that won't flip until you have 7 lands in play seem pretty bad in standard. Then if you do flip her, the top ability is to get more mana. You already have at least 7 mana!!! Chandra is a 2/2 for 1RR, why does red want to spend their turn 3 on putting out a 2/2??? I am done complaining
I am not writing the set off, but so far of what has been spoiled I am not impressed and would not be opening any packs... I am sure it will get better though. It can't get much worse lol /grin
Lets see, I traded into legacy when my birthing pod deck got banned, and my bloom titan cards spiked, so I haven't been part of the format very long. I think what I like about legacy is that even the goofy decks like food chain, or aluren have such strong tools that they can compete with the rest of the field. I like playing with wasteland and port. The reserve list is the thing killing legacy though.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Here was a real opportunity to bring back some iconic spells considered "too powerful" or "unfun" from the beginnings of Magic.
WotC rebooted Magixc lore after Time Spiral. Any history before Lorwyn has been mostly swept under the rug as fàr aas Standard sets are concerned. Look no much fuss they made over the 20th anniversary.
Edit - for the record, I like Origins! Too bad I won't want to draft it due to a lack of quality removal and 3cc land destruction.
Here was a real opportunity to bring back some iconic spells considered "too powerful" or "unfun" from the beginnings of Magic.
WotC rebooted Magixc lore after Time Spiral. Any history before Lorwyn has been mostly swept under the rug as fàr aas Standard sets are concerned. Look no much fuss they made over the 20th anniversary.
Edit - for the record, I like Origins! Too bad I won't want to draft it due to a lack of quality removal and 3cc land destruction.
Now that we've seen a few more spoilers, I have to give credit where it's due. The set is better than it first looked. But it's still a missed opportunity and I likely won't be playing standard with it either.
I am satisfied with the amount of cards entering the Legacy pool. Not so much the style of cards! I'd like to see more specialised cards which are synergy dependent enter the pool, and less "good-stuff". Also it seems pretty rare that we get non-basic lands or global enchantments which are playable beyond fringe applications. As for the rate of new cards, that's fine. I don't play non-rotating formats because I want frequent meta shifts.
Standard is a vastly different landscape than it once was, but even it's not so bad. I got used to no interrupts, no mana burn, no floating mana through phases, and my artifacts stopped being brown. But you know what? I'm playing a standard format where I can summon freaking Elder Dragons again. That's pretty cool. I like playing standard right now because I can be part of the ebb and flow of Magic's evolution, while Legacy keeps me linked to the past and the types of gameplay I grew up with. My issue with Modern is that it's neither though it tries to be both. Standard isn't so bad, and if you do hate it, just wait for rotation and the landscape will shift again. My only gripe with Standard is the occasional printing of "Everyone play 4x of this card until something better comes along" (Looking at you Siege Rhino, Thragtusk, Delver, JTMS, Bloodbraid Elf/Blightning.......) and that, to me, is what makes the format feel stale sometimes. Losing because your opponent peeled 3 Siege Rhinos or whatever card is running rampant feels worse than losing to just about any other kind of deck honestly, but then that's why they're so heavily played. I like standard landscapes that don't have auto 4x includes in every deck that can possibly play them.
Still, right now as Rhino's grip on standard loosens, I can play freaking elder dragons, and that's pretty sweet in my book. Legacy, thus far, has not shown me a deck where Vaevictis Asmadi is a viable option.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
It is a format where a number of fringe strategies exist that are completely or mostly unviable elsewhere- mainly prison strategies with an emphasis land denial, and certain low land combo decks. The former exist, especially in Europe, in decks like Pox, Lands and Stax variants, the latter in decks like , Manaless dredge and Belcher
More widespread the format has a number of denial effects- such as Stifle, Port and Wasteland- that are not seen elsewhere, making denial of mana a serious aspect of many decks, if not the sole focus.
It has a number of fringe t1 win decks, again not replicated in Modern.
All of this goes some way as to why Legacy should be supported. Additionally many find it great fun.
On the other hand to Wizards Legacy players are not highly valuable - they do not make them much money as they need and rip less, maybe the odd Commander product, maybe more if they draft. They are useful though - if only to demonstrate to new players that you can still be playing after 20 years, and because older players playing still attract interest of younger ones.
The most value Legacy players have is them being customers of big singles companies. People may say WOTC get no cash from SCG et al, but in reality that they benefit- the relationship is symbiotic- and SCG et al provide a lot of sponsorship and profile which drives regular booster sales. Magic is effectively a pyramid scheme- those in at the start who kept cards made the most, those in most recently looking to quit will find themselves out of pocket. The value of older cards is huge, and as long as Tabernacles cost £300 - 500+ (x1.6 for US$), then there will be traders making big bucks off that type of card. Legacy helps drive that market, and as new players look to buy into the format those prices will increase.
Mtg is very different now- its all about what Wizards think new players like- and in that respect yes, the game is dead. But Legacy will continue to give the old ways life for the foreseeable future, and if anything Modern may semi-fail in the eyes of the masses as it becomes a number of evergreen linear strategies that are rarely added to for fear of breaking Standard and "goodstuff" decks that, no matter what the colour combos used, all seem to be identical, and which can never get hated on as the only way to hate on such decks is to punish mana bases, which won't happen.
I built my first legacy deck a year ago (dredge), and have enjoyed playing legacy with my playgroup and at my lgs for a while now. I still play standard/modern, but recently I decided to make a second legacy deck (elves), and pretty much make legacy my primary format. I know the format isn't supported by wizards, but I think that's a good thing.
I find the lack of competitive events makes legacy players, even playing degenerate magic, much more relaxed than other players in other formats. Even standard fnms vs legacy are a huge difference, around me I've noticed standard players dropping as soon as they can't prize, while legacy players play it out. I think the cost and complexity of the format makes sure people actually really enjoy their decks. It's also nice to know that pretty much everyone I see on Fridays, I'll see next Friday. The feel of a home grown community is what makes legacy appealing. Also, in pretty much every legacy event i've played in beyond fnm, when i ask my opponent 'so why did you decide to sleeve up x?" their reply is usually, 'well, it's my favourite legacy deck,' or 'i've played it for ages'.
Now, you might wonder why I feel modern isn't the same? To be honest, around here, modern sort of is similar. But as modern gets more popular, it's getting a bit... for lack of a better word, scummy. Personally, I'm fine with having standard and modern be creature centric. It's a bit of a departure, but there are still decks in standard and modern that comprise of almost no creatures. Those changes are fine, we're still playing magic and it can be super refreshing to play something more like chess than poker. What I don't like is how everything has become a race for the current tech, the chase mythics, etc. My biggest problem with modern is actually my biggest gripe with wizards in general: the new way they market their product, and the kind of community that fosters.
Right before gp Toronto, my fb feed was full of people looking to buy ojutais for $40. Standard is wonderfully diverse, but it takes so much effort to keep up, and it seems like people switch decks weekly. I've seen elements of the same thing in modern, with people looking to borrow a "t1 modern deck" for one tournament. The full spoiler for mm2 has only reaffirmed my suspicions that wizards is going to be pushing this element of magic, that "chase the golden ticket," "build the best deck this week," mentality that pervades standard into modern. I don't want a part in that, and I think that has been the most annoying element of modern magic. I hate how it really brings a negative vibe to the community, and i feel like i have to partially blame wizards for the way they market it.
TLDR: I think legacy players undervalue the fact that the 'smallness' of the format is an appeal in it's own right. It does not necessarily stop newer players from coming to the format (like myself), but it can be a check at the door for the buy more, win more, attitude that I see at a lot of the competitive standard events, and much less at the legacy events. As as the new direction wizards has taken with the game, i actually don't mind it at all, what i mind is the new way they market it and the kind of community that creates. I guess i'm just not enough of a spike.
Have any of you seen the short vice magic documentary? They compare the vintage scene with the tournament scene. And I can't help but agree with what the vintage player says: magic is about the community first. I would much rather play an unsupported format like that than get wizards support and have it turn into the next standard/modern/God knows what.
Goblins
EDH
Derevi
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Here was a real opportunity to bring back some iconic spells considered "too powerful" or "unfun" from the beginnings of Magic.
Wallet staying closed WotC.
My Kamigawa cube.
My Mirage Cube
I never understand how people can write off a set 1/3rd into the spoiler. While it probably *won't* happen, there's still plenty of opportunity for an iconic spell reprint, whatever you think that is.
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
I anticipated that Magic Origins would be more of a kick off to the new way sets will rotate in and out and start it off with a dynamite set since the set name means "beginning, first stage of existence", like a new era of magic. I see now that they are using it to represent the beginning of some of the planes-walkers. Cool idea, but the only one that looks any good atm is Gideon. For the most part you have to spend too much effort to get a planes-walker out of them, and very easy for your opponent to prevent that from happening. If you play a regular planes-walker you at least get to use one of the abilities right away before your opponent can cast Hero's downfall or one of a few other cards as an instant to destroy it. You get something for the 1 for 1 change in that example, but these new apprentice planes-walkers for the most part will be killed off quickly and you got nothing extra. Some of them you might even be playing a few other cards in the deck to basically help flip them. playing a 3 cost nissa that is a 2/2 creature that won't flip until you have 7 lands in play seem pretty bad in standard. Then if you do flip her, the top ability is to get more mana. You already have at least 7 mana!!! Chandra is a 2/2 for 1RR, why does red want to spend their turn 3 on putting out a 2/2??? I am done complaining
I am not writing the set off, but so far of what has been spoiled I am not impressed and would not be opening any packs... I am sure it will get better though. It can't get much worse lol /grin
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Edit - for the record, I like Origins! Too bad I won't want to draft it due to a lack of quality removal and 3cc land destruction.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Now that we've seen a few more spoilers, I have to give credit where it's due. The set is better than it first looked. But it's still a missed opportunity and I likely won't be playing standard with it either.
My Kamigawa cube.
My Mirage Cube
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats