A friend of mine has a store that holds FNM events every week and I'm looking to add Legacy events to his repertoire 1-2 times a month. My main concern isn't if people show up, it's more about prize support. So here I find myself asking everyone has entered a tournament to tell me what was the payout for your legacy tournies (Of about 10-20 players).
He and I are deciding to make it 10 or 15 dollars and deciding how much to pay out to winners. I was thinking 80% of winnings to the top half, but that's a literal shot in the dark. Please drop some knowledge on me!
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Events I've always gone to are $5, paying out $20 to undefeated players and $5 to 2-1 players. Or prize pool going to top 4 and it being some majority cut of the pool. I don't see why it would be any different than standard events.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Well this is the first time he's gonna do cash prizes. Our FNMs normally have packs for prizes. And five bucks seems a little low from what I can tell. I would imagine if you're willing to drop 500 dollars minimum on a deck, you want a little more meat on the bone but your contribution is still appreciated.
Also, this is for HobbyTown USA in Orland Park, IL.
Sorry, I was thinking in terms of weekly events, not once a month in terms of the event. Yeah, if it is once a month just follow the SCG route and do $25 entry and $250 first place prize and pay down from there based on attendance.
I do think that you might have a misconception about Legacy players, though. Legacy players enjoy just having a chance to play their decks more often than not. Legacy players, let alone tournaments, can be few and far between and so players come out less for the prize and more for the challenge. If I have a $1700 deck, your prize pool has to be rather large for me to be going there in order to get a pay day. Grinding for value is more manageable in a larger player base like for Standard.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Yeah my thoughts exactly. It's starting off as once a month, but if we can get a regular attendance, we'll make it twice a month or once a week. Personally I play just to play, not really for prizes. But I know I'm a small minority and looking to tap into the majority. The main problem is that the store sells everything besides singles, which I assume will be a problem.
Also, this is for HobbyTown USA in Orland Park, IL.
Oh, okay, just wondering. Good luck!
In my experience, Legacy players want two things:
1) To be able to play their decks
2) To be able to compete at a high level
I think that having a relatively expensive ($15-$25) entry fee is best. It gives Legacy players more incentive to drive large distances, and they have a chance to win something that makes a difference to them. In general, if you're spending the money on a Legacy deck, you can afford an entry fee above that of FNM.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
But what if they're unable to get singles with that money? The store has all sets up to about 3 years ago, decks for EDH and standard, card sleeves, and they get every box set like the vaults and limited edition items.
Most Legacy players are interested in singles, supplies, and foiling out their decks. The answer to your question depends on how many Legacy players that you think you have.
If you have a lot of players, but the store can't pay out in cash and the store credit can't be used for Legacy staples, I'd recommend something like "win-a-box". The store will end up paying out multiple boxes, and those boxes can always be resold.
If you don't have a lot of players, you don't have many options. Growing a Legacy scene is an investment, and it's one that doesn't always pay off. You can get a small, committed group of people that just want to play, but it's hard to attract larger numbers of people without prizes that they can use.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
We have a casual event locally that's only 5$ to join and everyone gets a guaranteed pack.. the usual turnout is roughly 25-30 players... first place is usually 9 packs or so. Given the low entry and the guaranteed pack, there are a lot of kids that just come with awful standard/modern decks but have improved drastically. We had one kid who had a standard burn deck, turned it into a legacy burn deck and actually won the event once at age 11 I think. But we have roughly 6-10 real legacy decks with 3-4 being considered T1 and usually another 15 or so modern decks with legacy shoved into it and another 5-10 decks that can't compete but they are there for fun. We have had several people build real legacy decks because of this event which is considered a plus by me.
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Currently playing: Legacy: RUB Grixis Delver | RUGB 4c Control Modern: UR Affinity | RWG Burn EDH: R Krenko Combo | UR Mizzix WomboCombo | U Arcum Daggson Combo | WUBG Atraxa Dumpster Fire French Duels EDH: BUG Leovold, Emissary of Trest Prison Standard: Standard Sucks
Are win a box events usually one box to winner and that's all? Like single elim?
Yeah, the entry fee (and payout) would vary from store to store, but as an example, I've seen $15 8-person, single elimination tournaments (3 rounds) where the winner walks away with a box.
To me, that entry fee is a little steep for the prize support (the entry fee could easily go down to $12/person for the same prizes), but you could do something like an 8-person event for $25/person, where the payout is:
1st place: 1 box
2nd place: 1/2 box
3rd/4th place: 1/4 box
You have to be a little careful though, because Legacy players aren't always attracted to pack-based prize support. They need something that they can turn into staples (or cash).
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
But what if they're unable to get singles with that money? The store has all sets up to about 3 years ago, decks for EDH and standard, card sleeves, and they get every box set like the vaults and limited edition items.
The lack of singles could be a deal-breaker for more serious Legacy players. If the store is trying to compete with other legacy events rather tha fill a void, I don't think you'll see much turnout unless you offer a cash prize. Pretty much everyone I know who considers Legacy their favorite format has no interest in sealed product.
One thing to consider would be slowly building an audience by running unsanctioned Legacy events that allow proxies. You could essentially hold a win-a-box and try to leverage the existing player base that might want to dabble but can't/won't invest in the format.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
My LGS has optional entry fee/prize support for Legacy and Vintage. Effectively the owner gives us one night a week to pick the format and decide the entry fee ourselves, and he'll match half the prize pool in store credit. So if we play for nothing, he's still supporting us in that he's giving us a nice place to play. Usually it just depends on how many people we can get. On a night we have 20-25+ it's easy to have a $10 or $15 entry. Some nights we get fewer than 10 and just play casually. How many we get tends to go in cycles.
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[center]AKA Leon What I'm Currently Playing: Vintage:UW Mentor Legacy:UG Infect Modern:UX MUD Standard: N/A
Personally, I own a quite a few Legacy staples (but need to finish blue decks with shock lands, for example).
I choose to participate in a free weekly event in my area. It's sanctioned and if you go 3-0 you can pick a promo card from the shop's cutstack- clearly the monetary value of this prize is significantly lower than the gas and time I spend driving to the event.
I much prefer such an event to one with a $10 or $15 entry (although that would be more manageable once a month as opposed to weekly), not due to the fact that I don't have the disposable income to pay to play in the event, but because I'd rather spend my disposable income on cards to try new decks. This probably isn't a majority opinion but maybe a few people would feel the same way.
Motivating me to play at a store that doesn't sell singles would essentially require a cash prize.
Also, when I was in college I ran one or two Legacy events at a local card shop. As far as I can remember, the store had me run them as $5 entry and paid out ( ( (# players) / 2) * (# rounds) ) packs. Gross!
So for example with 8 players (3 rounds) the store made $40 and paid out 12 packs (and gave me a dollar per player in store credit for running the event.)
Well sadly cash prizes can't word, but since I'm filling a huge void in the area (The closest legacy event is an hour drive, even longer the more south you get up to two hours total). Because of this, I will hopefully garner attention. It's gonna be a month from now, 10 dollar fee, with store credit for top half in swiss. I'm gonna be creating a survey to hand out as well to gauge players reactions to tailor it to their needs. Although lack of singles and cash is a problem, I can't change those things. So here's hoping it works out.
I don't know whether you'd want to follow this structure, but here's the prize structure my LGS owner uses for all his weekly Constructed events (Standard, Modern and Legacy):
The prize pool is $3.50 per player (the price of one pack, which is also the entry fee). It's paid out in shares: a player who goes X-0 gets 2.5 shares, a player who goes X-0-1 gets 1.75 shares, X-1 gets 1 share, X-0-2 gets 0.5 shares and X-1-1 gets 0.25 shares. The number of packs in the pool is divided by the total number of shares to get the amount per share, then for each player that's multiplied by the number of shares they earned. (Everything is rounded to the nearest pack with everyone who gets prizes getting at least one pack. Uneven numbers of packs are rounded so that the best tiebreakers get the extra packs.)
So, for instance, if we fire a 25-player event and have one X-0, four X-1 and one X-1-1, that's 6.75 shares, for 100/27 packs per share. X-0 then gets 9 packs, the X-1-1 gets 1 pack, and the four X-1 players split 15 packs--the top three in tiebreakers get 4 apiece, while the lowest gets 3. Prizes can be taken in packs or in an equivalent amount of store credit. An 8-player event resulting in one X-0 and three X-1 would see the X-0 getting 4 packs, the top X-1 getting 2 and the other two getting one each.
He prizes out in the same way for drafts, except that there the entry fee is $14 (3 packs plus one for prizes).
The formula can be scaled to any entry fee.
He does post prize support for larger events, but to my knowledge he's never had a complaint about not posting prize support for his weekly events and he's willing to explain his prize structure to anyone who asks.
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Rules Advisor (as of the last time they offered that certification).
Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
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He and I are deciding to make it 10 or 15 dollars and deciding how much to pay out to winners. I was thinking 80% of winnings to the top half, but that's a literal shot in the dark. Please drop some knowledge on me!
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Also, this is for HobbyTown USA in Orland Park, IL.
I do think that you might have a misconception about Legacy players, though. Legacy players enjoy just having a chance to play their decks more often than not. Legacy players, let alone tournaments, can be few and far between and so players come out less for the prize and more for the challenge. If I have a $1700 deck, your prize pool has to be rather large for me to be going there in order to get a pay day. Grinding for value is more manageable in a larger player base like for Standard.
Oh, okay, just wondering. Good luck!
In my experience, Legacy players want two things:
1) To be able to play their decks
2) To be able to compete at a high level
I think that having a relatively expensive ($15-$25) entry fee is best. It gives Legacy players more incentive to drive large distances, and they have a chance to win something that makes a difference to them. In general, if you're spending the money on a Legacy deck, you can afford an entry fee above that of FNM.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
If you have a lot of players, but the store can't pay out in cash and the store credit can't be used for Legacy staples, I'd recommend something like "win-a-box". The store will end up paying out multiple boxes, and those boxes can always be resold.
If you don't have a lot of players, you don't have many options. Growing a Legacy scene is an investment, and it's one that doesn't always pay off. You can get a small, committed group of people that just want to play, but it's hard to attract larger numbers of people without prizes that they can use.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Legacy:
RUB Grixis Delver | RUGB 4c Control
Modern:
UR Affinity | RWG Burn
EDH:
R Krenko Combo | UR Mizzix WomboCombo | U Arcum Daggson Combo | WUBG Atraxa Dumpster Fire
French Duels EDH:
BUG Leovold, Emissary of Trest Prison
Standard:
Standard Sucks
Yeah, the entry fee (and payout) would vary from store to store, but as an example, I've seen $15 8-person, single elimination tournaments (3 rounds) where the winner walks away with a box.
To me, that entry fee is a little steep for the prize support (the entry fee could easily go down to $12/person for the same prizes), but you could do something like an 8-person event for $25/person, where the payout is:
1st place: 1 box
2nd place: 1/2 box
3rd/4th place: 1/4 box
You have to be a little careful though, because Legacy players aren't always attracted to pack-based prize support. They need something that they can turn into staples (or cash).
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
The lack of singles could be a deal-breaker for more serious Legacy players. If the store is trying to compete with other legacy events rather tha fill a void, I don't think you'll see much turnout unless you offer a cash prize. Pretty much everyone I know who considers Legacy their favorite format has no interest in sealed product.
One thing to consider would be slowly building an audience by running unsanctioned Legacy events that allow proxies. You could essentially hold a win-a-box and try to leverage the existing player base that might want to dabble but can't/won't invest in the format.
What I'm Currently Playing:
Vintage:UW Mentor
Legacy:UG Infect
Modern:UX MUD
Standard: N/A
I choose to participate in a free weekly event in my area. It's sanctioned and if you go 3-0 you can pick a promo card from the shop's cutstack- clearly the monetary value of this prize is significantly lower than the gas and time I spend driving to the event.
I much prefer such an event to one with a $10 or $15 entry (although that would be more manageable once a month as opposed to weekly), not due to the fact that I don't have the disposable income to pay to play in the event, but because I'd rather spend my disposable income on cards to try new decks. This probably isn't a majority opinion but maybe a few people would feel the same way.
Motivating me to play at a store that doesn't sell singles would essentially require a cash prize.
Also, when I was in college I ran one or two Legacy events at a local card shop. As far as I can remember, the store had me run them as $5 entry and paid out ( ( (# players) / 2) * (# rounds) ) packs. Gross!
So for example with 8 players (3 rounds) the store made $40 and paid out 12 packs (and gave me a dollar per player in store credit for running the event.)
The prize pool is $3.50 per player (the price of one pack, which is also the entry fee). It's paid out in shares: a player who goes X-0 gets 2.5 shares, a player who goes X-0-1 gets 1.75 shares, X-1 gets 1 share, X-0-2 gets 0.5 shares and X-1-1 gets 0.25 shares. The number of packs in the pool is divided by the total number of shares to get the amount per share, then for each player that's multiplied by the number of shares they earned. (Everything is rounded to the nearest pack with everyone who gets prizes getting at least one pack. Uneven numbers of packs are rounded so that the best tiebreakers get the extra packs.)
So, for instance, if we fire a 25-player event and have one X-0, four X-1 and one X-1-1, that's 6.75 shares, for 100/27 packs per share. X-0 then gets 9 packs, the X-1-1 gets 1 pack, and the four X-1 players split 15 packs--the top three in tiebreakers get 4 apiece, while the lowest gets 3. Prizes can be taken in packs or in an equivalent amount of store credit. An 8-player event resulting in one X-0 and three X-1 would see the X-0 getting 4 packs, the top X-1 getting 2 and the other two getting one each.
He prizes out in the same way for drafts, except that there the entry fee is $14 (3 packs plus one for prizes).
The formula can be scaled to any entry fee.
He does post prize support for larger events, but to my knowledge he's never had a complaint about not posting prize support for his weekly events and he's willing to explain his prize structure to anyone who asks.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination