Those that don't know it's basically Lightning Bolt, and if the creature lives/dies to it. Typically if it costs 2+ mana and dies to bolt, it's unusable.
Are there so much removal and counters in Legacy it doesn't matter because everything and anything can die, so it's worth a risk to eat a card and take a 1 for 1. Or do good creature cards like Vampire Nighthawk will never ever find a home? Heck Mother of Runes or Dark Confidant don't have a home anymore. Is this the result of the bolt test?
Mother of Runes has a home in Death and Taxes, Deadguy Ale, and Maverick
Dark Confidant doesn't have a home because Treasure Cruise is better card advantage. It still lives in non-blue decks.
They did not get chased out because of bolt. They are so good at what they do, that they are played even though they die to bolt.
The Bolt Test is important in that if your creature costs more than 1 mana, it better do something really good if it dies to bolt. Some examples being Stoneforge Mystic, Young Pyromancer, and Vendilion Clique.
All these cards have really powerful effects and even if bolted, usually generate some form of advantage.
Vampire Nighthawk is a good attacker and blocker but its not even one that's above curve like Tarmogoyf. For 3 mana you want something that's better than a beatstick even one with as nice keywords as nighthawk.
If I'm trading my Insectile Aberration for your Nighthawk I've definitely won that exchange because I only payed 1 mana for my flier while you played 3.
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The Lightning Bolt test isn't as important as the Swords to Plowshares test. It just so happens that the creatures passing the Swords to Plowshares test (like Stillmoon Cavalier) are so underwhelming in other areas that they don't make it into main decks for long. Aside from TNN, Cavalier is chief among them, and it's fringe playable at best. I think I've seen that card in a top 16 once in my life (not that I look at all of them).
I think the 1 toughness test is probably the most important at the moment, people hadn't put away the -1/-1 stuff from TNN when Young Pyromancer started to make waves.
isn't B/W combination just bad? Deadguy hasn't done anything in years. Tidehollow Sculler is a good card, Jotun Grunt is a good card, but these aren't used either.
1 toughness is somewhat avoided due to Jitte's steamrolling ability and the myriad -1/-1 effects, but Toxic Deluge is a thing too; so you can't put so much weight on GC and ZP when you're equally likely just getting Deluge'd anyway.
I don't think it makes any sense to avoid DC just because of Bolt/Plow/Path/Gut Shot/etc.. Legacy creatures (and vintage at that) barely pass the Gut Shot Test, let alone the Shock test or Bolt test. It's impractical because most creatures that are worth playing die to it at the acceptable CMC's in legacy.
Modern, where you can play a 3 or 4 drop reliably (no waste, no daze) needs the test more for things like Nighthawk or other decent but competitively mediocre creatures. If the best someone can get you to waste is 1-mana (you paid 2 for a dude, they killed it for 1) then you can easily make that ground up by simply having Thalia (now they spend 2-3 on their removal for your 2-drop.) Also, DRS is rampant in decks that would worry about it; and the extra mana helps make up for potential tempo loss.
The only "Bolt test" guys tend to be your end-game beaters: Goyf, BSK, KotR, TNN, and (usually) equipped dudes. These are in virtually any/every deck as finishers and pass the test; maybe it's the bolt-test at work; but you're normally more worried about being bolted in the face by the time you're swinging with goyfs anyway.
The Bolt Test sounds like it has little to no value as a measuring tool.
This is debatable. Sure bolt test seemed hard to measure but there are some creatures we dont see in play in Legacy, even though they should do well because of the existence of bolt.
Such as Goblin Welder.
Although, I seemed to believe the bolt test is referring to decks that play burn and decks that play burn like spells (such as u/r delver).
The Bolt Test sounds like it has little to no value as a measuring tool.
The Bolt Test is paramount in Modern in my experience, where 4+-drops and some 3-drops get laughed out because they die to Bolt (and Lightning Helix, Ajani Vengeant, Anger of the Gods, etc.) without affecting the Bolt-playing opponent or consistently threatening to win the game on the spot. We've maligned Vampire Nighthawk and Rafiq of the Many in Modern at least partially because they fail the Bolt test. Even planeswalkers there are subject to the Bolt Test--Kiora, the Crashing Wave would be so much better in Modern if her +X immediately got her to 4 loyalty instead of 3 (or if her +X generated CA).
The Bolt Test definitely doesn't seem to be as important in Legacy or Vintage.
The Bolt Test sounds like it has little to no value as a measuring tool.
The Bolt Test is paramount in Modern in my experience, where 4+-drops and some 3-drops get laughed out because they die to Bolt (and Lightning Helix, Ajani Vengeant, Anger of the Gods, etc.) without affecting the Bolt-playing opponent or consistently threatening to win the game on the spot. We've maligned Vampire Nighthawk and Rafiq of the Many in Modern at least partially because they fail the Bolt test. Even planeswalkers there are subject to the Bolt Test--Kiora, the Crashing Wave would be so much better in Modern if her +X immediately got her to 4 loyalty instead of 3 (or if her +X generated CA).
The Bolt Test definitely doesn't seem to be as important in Legacy or Vintage.
The way how modern is designed... Bolt should be banned in that format.
In Modern, Bolt is the best card in the format and decks either play it or have a very good reason for not doing so. In Legacy, Bolt is just one efficient answer card and it is nowhere near as ubiquitous as in Modern.
This means that Bolt does not warp the format like it does in Modern.
Interestingly this means that a hypothetical vanilla 10/3 for 3 mana might be playable or good in Legacy but probably unplayable in Modern. (Not that such a card would be likely to be printed).
In Legacy it's a Cost test. For what you pay, are you getting the most you can be with this card? You do not really plan around removal, because it's so common. You fight over it on the stack, if you can't then the test is, how effective is this to your strategy and is there something better?
No bolt test in legacy. Mother of runes dies to bolt when it's sick but mother of runes is still quite playable. Same with delver of secrets, dark confidant, stoneforge mystic, young pyromancer, etc. etc. bolt test is in modern where virtually every red deck runs bolts and for when it was in standard as when bolt was in standard anything with 3 or less toughness without some EtB trigger attached that made the card relevant even if it died to bolt was pretty poor.
Probably the important test is -1 toughness/1 point of damage test in legacy due to TNN. Every time I see a creature with 2 toughness I wish it was 1 because the amount of things that deal/grant -1 toughness is huge namely darkblast, fire//ice in terms of fire getting a 2 for 1, gut shot, zealous persecution, dread of night, etc. etc.
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No bolt test in legacy. Mother of runes dies to bolt when it's sick but mother of runes is still quite playable. Same with delver of secrets, dark confidant, stoneforge mystic, young pyromancer, etc. etc. bolt test is in modern where virtually every red deck runs bolts and for when it was in standard as when bolt was in standard anything with 3 or less toughness without some EtB trigger attached that made the card relevant even if it died to bolt was pretty poor.
Probably the important test is -1 toughness/1 point of damage test in legacy due to TNN. Every time I see a creature with 2 toughness I wish it was 1 because the amount of things that deal/grant -1 toughness is huge namely darkblast, fire//ice in terms of fire getting a 2 for 1, gut shot, zealous persecution, dread of night, etc. etc.
^^ What he said. -1/-1 is far more important at this point in the legacy meta.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
Those that don't know it's basically Lightning Bolt, and if the creature lives/dies to it. Typically if it costs 2+ mana and dies to bolt, it's unusable.
Are there so much removal and counters in Legacy it doesn't matter because everything and anything can die, so it's worth a risk to eat a card and take a 1 for 1. Or do good creature cards like Vampire Nighthawk will never ever find a home? Heck Mother of Runes or Dark Confidant don't have a home anymore. Is this the result of the bolt test?
I am pretty sure mother of runes still sees play in the right decks where it's value there largely outweighs it's demise to lightning bolt. Which leads to lightning bolt having to kill mother of runes before it gets out of hand since it's great against creature decks. Both lightning bolt and a creature deck definitely has some strong correlation with each other.
It's also the same thing with dark confidant when that saw a lot of play in decks where it brought value to those decks. Although, I think the main reason why bob doesn't see that much play nowadays is mostly due to treasure cruise where it connects a ton of paradigms together with lightning bolt being somewhere in that.
Legacy is beginning to have a bit of the "Bolt Test" with "Forked Bolt" (tee hee)
Lists with lots of X/1s are being pushed heavily to the side (including D&T, excepting Elves) which is also why you see less Bobs/Moms/Thalias and such. It answers all the 1-drops of the format while dealing with Mom + Dude or out-valuing (and out-tempoing) the Bob decks that still existed. It deals with every hate-dude that could attempt to threaten Cruise decks while having the added benefit of occasional 2-for-1s.
Legacy is beginning to have a bit of the "Bolt Test" with "Forked Bolt" (tee hee)
Lists with lots of X/1s are being pushed heavily to the side (including D&T, excepting Elves) which is also why you see less Bobs/Moms/Thalias and such. It answers all the 1-drops of the format while dealing with Mom + Dude or out-valuing (and out-tempoing) the Bob decks that still existed. It deals with every hate-dude that could attempt to threaten Cruise decks while having the added benefit of occasional 2-for-1s.
Indeed, nothing in this format passes the shock test anymore let alone the bolt test. Things die to removal and no one cares
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Yeah, when it turns out you have to prepare for Swords to Plowshares just as much as Lightning Bolt, you generally accept that "removal" is just a universal thing that is going to kill your dude no matter what. Then you start to ignore toughness for the most part and just look at what the creature does, and whether that is worth running it into a kill spell.
Also, good X/3s just don't seem to exist anymore. I think Serra Avenger is the only one that I've seen in Legacy, and that's only in one deck.
Imo the bolt test is completely useless in legacy. What's next? StP test? Goyf test? Counter test? Any of the black removal test? If you're playing a creature in legacy, you don't really need to worry about that because there's a reason you're playing it. If the creature does pass the bolt test, that's just extra.
But consider the creatures played in legacy. How many actually past the bolt test? Stoneforge, any of the merfolk/elves/goblins played, snappy, manlands, wild nacatl, delver, goblin guide, drs, nighthawk, confidant, clique, any of the affinity creatures, etc. Sure, goyf passes the bolt test, but that's not why he's played.
so tell me again, what's so important about the bolt test?
Imo the bolt test is completely useless in legacy. What's next? StP test? Goyf test? Counter test? Any of the black removal test? If you're playing a creature in legacy, you don't really need to worry about that because there's a reason you're playing it. If the creature does pass the bolt test, that's just extra.
But consider the creatures played in legacy. How many actually past the bolt test? Stoneforge, any of the merfolk/elves/goblins played, snappy, manlands, wild nacatl, delver, goblin guide, drs, nighthawk, confidant, clique, any of the affinity creatures, etc. Sure, goyf passes the bolt test, but that's not why he's played.
so tell me again, what's so important about the bolt test?
If we define the Bolt Test as "My opponent can always Bolt my guy at some point (usually when it ETB) such that I get no value from it", I'd actually categorize your listed creatures like this:
A lot of Elves's guys get really debatable, especially when you have other untapped Elves on the battlefield. In particular, Wirewood Symbiote cannot save itself from removal, but it can save one of your Elves per turn, starting the turn it ETB.
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Those that don't know it's basically Lightning Bolt, and if the creature lives/dies to it. Typically if it costs 2+ mana and dies to bolt, it's unusable.
Are there so much removal and counters in Legacy it doesn't matter because everything and anything can die, so it's worth a risk to eat a card and take a 1 for 1. Or do good creature cards like Vampire Nighthawk will never ever find a home? Heck Mother of Runes or Dark Confidant don't have a home anymore. Is this the result of the bolt test?
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
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Dark Confidant doesn't have a home because Treasure Cruise is better card advantage. It still lives in non-blue decks.
They did not get chased out because of bolt. They are so good at what they do, that they are played even though they die to bolt.
The Bolt Test is important in that if your creature costs more than 1 mana, it better do something really good if it dies to bolt. Some examples being Stoneforge Mystic, Young Pyromancer, and Vendilion Clique.
All these cards have really powerful effects and even if bolted, usually generate some form of advantage.
Vampire Nighthawk is a good attacker and blocker but its not even one that's above curve like Tarmogoyf. For 3 mana you want something that's better than a beatstick even one with as nice keywords as nighthawk.
If I'm trading my Insectile Aberration for your Nighthawk I've definitely won that exchange because I only payed 1 mana for my flier while you played 3.
-Anonymous
I think the 1 toughness test is probably the most important at the moment, people hadn't put away the -1/-1 stuff from TNN when Young Pyromancer started to make waves.
Overall record: 139-98-15
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Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
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I don't think it makes any sense to avoid DC just because of Bolt/Plow/Path/Gut Shot/etc.. Legacy creatures (and vintage at that) barely pass the Gut Shot Test, let alone the Shock test or Bolt test. It's impractical because most creatures that are worth playing die to it at the acceptable CMC's in legacy.
Modern, where you can play a 3 or 4 drop reliably (no waste, no daze) needs the test more for things like Nighthawk or other decent but competitively mediocre creatures. If the best someone can get you to waste is 1-mana (you paid 2 for a dude, they killed it for 1) then you can easily make that ground up by simply having Thalia (now they spend 2-3 on their removal for your 2-drop.) Also, DRS is rampant in decks that would worry about it; and the extra mana helps make up for potential tempo loss.
The only "Bolt test" guys tend to be your end-game beaters: Goyf, BSK, KotR, TNN, and (usually) equipped dudes. These are in virtually any/every deck as finishers and pass the test; maybe it's the bolt-test at work; but you're normally more worried about being bolted in the face by the time you're swinging with goyfs anyway.
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Draw
Fetch
Look
This is debatable. Sure bolt test seemed hard to measure but there are some creatures we dont see in play in Legacy, even though they should do well because of the existence of bolt.
Such as Goblin Welder.
Although, I seemed to believe the bolt test is referring to decks that play burn and decks that play burn like spells (such as u/r delver).
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The Bolt Test is paramount in Modern in my experience, where 4+-drops and some 3-drops get laughed out because they die to Bolt (and Lightning Helix, Ajani Vengeant, Anger of the Gods, etc.) without affecting the Bolt-playing opponent or consistently threatening to win the game on the spot. We've maligned Vampire Nighthawk and Rafiq of the Many in Modern at least partially because they fail the Bolt test. Even planeswalkers there are subject to the Bolt Test--Kiora, the Crashing Wave would be so much better in Modern if her +X immediately got her to 4 loyalty instead of 3 (or if her +X generated CA).
The Bolt Test definitely doesn't seem to be as important in Legacy or Vintage.
The way how modern is designed... Bolt should be banned in that format.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
in legacy/vintage, its more important the STP test, indestructible<shroud/hexproof for example/protection.
pd: the "bolt" test in legacy is FOW, as is: does this deck just lose to a FOW (ex:belcher)? FOW/bolt are healthy for the format (legacy/modern).
This means that Bolt does not warp the format like it does in Modern.
Interestingly this means that a hypothetical vanilla 10/3 for 3 mana might be playable or good in Legacy but probably unplayable in Modern. (Not that such a card would be likely to be printed).
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Probably the important test is -1 toughness/1 point of damage test in legacy due to TNN. Every time I see a creature with 2 toughness I wish it was 1 because the amount of things that deal/grant -1 toughness is huge namely darkblast, fire//ice in terms of fire getting a 2 for 1, gut shot, zealous persecution, dread of night, etc. etc.
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^^ What he said. -1/-1 is far more important at this point in the legacy meta.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I am pretty sure mother of runes still sees play in the right decks where it's value there largely outweighs it's demise to lightning bolt. Which leads to lightning bolt having to kill mother of runes before it gets out of hand since it's great against creature decks. Both lightning bolt and a creature deck definitely has some strong correlation with each other.
It's also the same thing with dark confidant when that saw a lot of play in decks where it brought value to those decks. Although, I think the main reason why bob doesn't see that much play nowadays is mostly due to treasure cruise where it connects a ton of paradigms together with lightning bolt being somewhere in that.
Lists with lots of X/1s are being pushed heavily to the side (including D&T, excepting Elves) which is also why you see less Bobs/Moms/Thalias and such. It answers all the 1-drops of the format while dealing with Mom + Dude or out-valuing (and out-tempoing) the Bob decks that still existed. It deals with every hate-dude that could attempt to threaten Cruise decks while having the added benefit of occasional 2-for-1s.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Indeed, nothing in this format passes the shock test anymore let alone the bolt test. Things die to removal and no one cares
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
Also, good X/3s just don't seem to exist anymore. I think Serra Avenger is the only one that I've seen in Legacy, and that's only in one deck.
Painter's Servant is another one, albeit only in decks dedicated to abusing it.
But consider the creatures played in legacy. How many actually past the bolt test? Stoneforge, any of the merfolk/elves/goblins played, snappy, manlands, wild nacatl, delver, goblin guide, drs, nighthawk, confidant, clique, any of the affinity creatures, etc. Sure, goyf passes the bolt test, but that's not why he's played.
so tell me again, what's so important about the bolt test?
If we define the Bolt Test as "My opponent can always Bolt my guy at some point (usually when it ETB) such that I get no value from it", I'd actually categorize your listed creatures like this:
Pass
Fail
A lot of Elves's guys get really debatable, especially when you have other untapped Elves on the battlefield. In particular, Wirewood Symbiote cannot save itself from removal, but it can save one of your Elves per turn, starting the turn it ETB.