there are some amazing cards to work with in the BG sphere, ill provide a sample deck list later just as an example of theory craft. but ive been wondering why a removal/discard deck has never found a winning configuration and taken a tournament.
golgari has some amazing cores that have already found places in other decks splashing G or B but never in a winning golgari deck
is it generating card advantage? well if DC wasnt enough you could always try waste not
maybe its the creatures? black has some poor options for win cons if we arent talking about small creatures like bloodghast but green has some great stuff like tarmogoyf and in the case of golgari specific synergy thrun, the last troll
so what exactly is BG missing to make it more competitive? heres a deck list just for mulling over the concept
I was actually just thinking about how well positioned Golgari Charm is in Legacy right now, being able to hit Young Pyromancer and crew, True-Name Nemesis, elves, unflipped Delver, and definitely a blow out against some of D&T's creatures.
BG does have some success as Nic Fit, but basically, running BG means you have to justify that it is better than Junk or Jund if you're going to the grindy attrition route. As for your decklist, I think Mirri's Guile is better than Top, and that Dark Confidant is better than Waste Not. And Phyrexian Obliterator might be a possible option, too. I also don't know if Hymn to Tourach is where you want to be, in light of Treasure Cruise.
After testing each Guile is neat but:
-You can never use that card you see
-You can't protect it
-You can't deal with redundant copies
It's neat that it plops T1 and fixes draws for free, but since you can't cantrip with it or get CA with it it just plays too "fair" IMO.
Either way: "Junk" or "The Rock" are what you're looking for. Typically it's a light white splash for Plow and you can go deeper if you want SFM and such. It's hard to justify having no White/Red/Blue cards though when the manabase can easily support it.
I will say that I think Waste Not is better than it was; due to the presence of Cruise decks (meaning your discard normally has targets.) I could see it dropping T2 with a follow-up Thoughtseize or a Hymn the next turn. Hardly amazing, but it could be worth testing.
Jund has always been a thing. The reason straight GB isn't played is because 3 colors is easy to do with legacy fixing and it makes your deck more versatile.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
you all make valid points but that isnt exactly what i'm aiming to understand here. when i talk about golgari im not talking about loam pox or nic fit, etc. those decks have their own specific mechanisms that arent golgari themed i.e. destroy, discard or control hate (thrun). just to have a bit more clarity if blue excels at control via disruption, golgari should excel at control via removal/discard. so when i talk about being viable im talking about the removal/discard mechanism being more dominate in the legacy format.
on a side note i prefer guile when using dark confidant, library is redundant life lose and top is unnecessary mana use. without DC its a toss up between sylvan library and top depending on your decks discard package.
anyway theres nothing wrong with that jund deck for example but i dont consider it a golgari deck because its clearly an aggro centric deck rather then control via removal/discard.
You really need to be clear about whether youre talking about a color scheme or a strategy, and then which of the two Ravnica blocks youre using as the basis for the strategy.
Obviously BG as a color scheme is used fairly heavily, often with a third color. Many multicolor Legacy decks tend to do this. Once you've decided to expose yourself by using a non-basic land base, adding a third color becomes reasonably trivial, and Deathrite Shaman just makes it even easier.
But you seem to be talking about the block theme strategy "Golgari". And if thats the case, then unarguably the most competitive "Golgari themed" deck is Dredge. What other Ravnica guild has a Legacy deck named after its mechanic?
Golgari is all about using the graveyard for stuff in both Ravnica blocks.
Frankly you need to define where you are getting your definition for what is and is not "Golgari".
A deck that controls the game with discard and removal? Thats basically the definition of a midrange Jund deck. There isnt only one way to build the deck, and depending on the meta it can shift to be more aggressive or more controlling.
The deck you listed in the OP is pretty much strictly worse than the same deck with Punishing Fire. Also, I find your lack of Dark Confidants disturbing.
To make the thread more concise, the reason that there isn't a purely G/B deck is simply because the mana base of legacy can support a third color in most decks, and that third color helps the deck. I'm sure, at least on the local level, a B/G deck is viable, but a third color gives it more versatility.
If you plan on building such a deck, I'd drop a copy of Urborg, and drop Mirri's Guile, replacing it with Sylvan Library which is a bit more suited to the task.
Based on strategy, Dredge is a golgari deck, it runs off of the dredge mechanic and plays around in its graveyard.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
golgari is a guild that's it nothing more it doesn't describe a single mechanic or block theme. its hard to talk about a color combo and not generalize, are we talking about a splash of one color or two etc? theres several variant decks as mentioned but those are all specific to a particular strategy based around a mechanic like dredge for example not the general color themes of BG or their fusion of themes: control hate + removal
i could have called the thread B/G and everyone would just think im talking about loam pox and not the broader synergies. what im trying to discuss isnt BG when splashed, or a BG mechanic, but the more general utility of the BG pairing, discard,removal, control hate
as to the subject of a third color adding versatility lets discuss this a bit more in depth. in specific we are talking about swords to plowshares or lightning bolt any other cards and we are leaving the scope of discard/removal/control hate and entering into the area of overall deck strategy outside of color theme.
the argument is that by splashing we gain the ability to remove a creature or being able to extend damage to the player. i would be careful because this is very meta/ very deck specific. with respect to the first card we are dropping something for more removal, something that isnt necessarily needed depending on the context. for example would you splash for swords against TNN? or is diabolic edict, golgari charm, innocent blood better utility then splashing a third color, the same can be said for lightning bolt. the only time lightning bolt is a better option is when we can use that player damage more effectively with our core. which once again is only a good consideration if we are talking about an aggro package splashing red for a control package is probably not optimal if the control package is support for a none aggro based win con.
think of it this way if i take a single dredge,loam,etc card and put it into any other deck type does it provide the same level of utility then if i were to do the same with a removal/discard card. if not i dont consider it as part of the broader golgari card theme.
i could have called the thread B/G and everyone would just think im talking about loam pox and not the broader synergies. what im trying to discuss isnt BG when splashed, or a BG mechanic, but the more general utility of the BG pairing, discard,removal, control hate
I know you don't want to hear this, but you just described Punishing Jund to the letter: discard for disruption (Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, LotV) followed by removal (Abrupt Decay, Punishing Fire, LotV) and a win condition (Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf). The "general utility" (your words) of the pairing is exactly what Jund already does. It just so happens to also splash red because it makes the deck better, and there's almost no penalty for doing so.
The primary problem with this strategy, and the reason I retired it after playing it since the Kai Budde Rock days, is that it just isn't strong enough in comparison to the rest of the field. If you want to play a grindy attrition game, there are decks that do it better (Lands, 4C Loam, Deathblade). If you want to play an aggro-control game, Delver does it better while shoring up some of the greatest weaknesses of the deck (combo primarily).
But ultimately, it comes down to the fact that you're playing off the top of your library with a relatively soft win condition (small / medium creatures) minimal deck manipulation, and no reach to close out a game. Discard spells are awful top decks after turn 3-4, as they do nothing against a topdecking opponent, and they do nothing to impact the boardstate. So while spells like Thoughtseize and Hymn are very powerful on the early turns, they get drastically worse the longer the game goes, and BG is not able to present a particularly fast clock. There's also the problem of one-for-one'ing an opponent who will eventually out-advantage you with something like JtMS, Treasure Cruise, Stoneforge Mystic, etc., or simply combo off regardless of the early setback.
I'm the world's biggest B/G fan (it's right there in my name ), but a deck needs more of a gameplan than discard + removal to compete in the modern era of Legacy.
And I would pose your question inversely: What advantage is there to not splashing a third color? Wasteland and Blood Moon are certainly considerations to make, but beyond that, there's relatively little penalty for splashing a third or 4th color with these types of decks.
Bolt/Plow are better than the spells you listed in nearly all scenarios; because it's a 1-mana kill spell for the format that targets what you want to kill. Edict, Charm, and Blood are all specialized spells that are only suitable for certain decks that naturally play around them (or for the sideboard.) Edict is just a bad-Lily, so it's not played. Blood is conditional on board state so you only put it in certain decks.
Bolt/Plow go in anything without caring. They're a cool guy and don't afraid of anything.
You're misunderstanding comes from not understanding how mana-efficient Legacy has to be for spells to be played and successful in a general meta. That doesn't mean you won't get someone with Charm/Blood; but it does mean you'll start losing games because those weren't better spells.
is exactly how Jund and Junk do *anything.* Any non-blue deck relies on this formula unless it lacks black *and* blue, in which case it's removal/aggro/hatebears or some kind of blood moon/stompy deck or just loses to combo. (If I missed something, let's not be pedantic.) Just because my removal spell is in white and the most-efficient removal *in the game* doesn't make it "not removal/discard control", and just because Bolt can kill someone doesn't mean it's not also more efficient than just about any other black kill spell in the format.
Now, if you think adding Stoneforge to a deck makes it "not removal/discard" control, you're mistaken. The reason she exists is because Equips turn every dude into a serious threat; threats that happen to kill opponent's creatures if they connect. That's removal. That's control. It's boosting reliability of your topdecks.
Also.. you should seriously play Top/Library over Guile. I'd go play them some more. The other two cards are *significantly* more powerful either via actual CA, burst CA, or simply getting rid of it for a real card when you're in a pinch.
you all make valid points but that isnt exactly what i'm aiming to understand here. when i talk about golgari im not talking about loam pox or nic fit, etc. those decks have their own specific mechanisms that arent golgari themed i.e. destroy, discard or control hate (thrun). just to have a bit more clarity if blue excels at control via disruption, golgari should excel at control via removal/discard. so when i talk about being viable im talking about the removal/discard mechanism being more dominate in the legacy format.
on a side note i prefer guile when using dark confidant, library is redundant life lose and top is unnecessary mana use. without DC its a toss up between sylvan library and top depending on your decks discard package.
anyway theres nothing wrong with that jund deck for example but i dont consider it a golgari deck because its clearly an aggro centric deck rather then control via removal/discard.
you all make valid points but that isnt exactly what i'm aiming to understand here. when i talk about golgari im not talking about loam pox or nic fit, etc. those decks have their own specific mechanisms that arent golgari themed i.e. destroy, discard or control hate (thrun). just to have a bit more clarity if blue excels at control via disruption, golgari should excel at control via removal/discard. so when i talk about being viable im talking about the removal/discard mechanism being more dominate in the legacy format.
on a side note i prefer guile when using dark confidant, library is redundant life lose and top is unnecessary mana use. without DC its a toss up between sylvan library and top depending on your decks discard package.
anyway theres nothing wrong with that jund deck for example but i dont consider it a golgari deck because its clearly an aggro centric deck rather then control via removal/discard.
The primary issue with Golgari is that it lacks a good 1-mama removal spell. This is why successful iterations of this strategy splash Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt.
Moreover, discard is terrible in a meta that's two-thirds Treasure Cruise, and there's a general lack of card advantage in those colors to supplement this gameplan.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I know you don't want to hear this, but you just described Punishing Jund to the letter: discard for disruption (Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, LotV) followed by removal (Abrupt Decay, Punishing Fire, LotV) and a win condition (Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf). The "general utility" (your words) of the pairing is exactly what Jund already does. It just so happens to also splash red because it makes the deck better, and there's almost no penalty for doing so.
nope im perfectly ok with this, im not dismissing your argument at all, i agree with where your coming from in fact. but my question on the subject is more within the scope of why isnt the B/G variant more dominant as a control type deck there is just a massive amount of viable cards and they keep popping up in so many deck lists all on their own but it seems like they have never culminated into a single deck with a stronger b/g identity. i find it really curious.
You're misunderstanding comes from not understanding how mana-efficient Legacy has to be for spells to be played and successful in a general meta. That doesn't mean you won't get someone with Charm/Blood; but it does mean you'll start losing games because those weren't better spells.
your assumption is way off base here, mana efficiency is becoming far less relevant in the legacy meta with more high threat, low answer cards being printed splashing for these cards is becoming less relevant as a result. if we are talking about a stronger w/r color identity deck then those are natural cards to side in but if we are talking about splashing, those types of cards are becoming less of a relevant option. tell me what will these cards do against true-name nemesis. the distinction here is that while they are highly mana efficient their usefulness is becoming just as narrow as the cards i have listed
I've been playing with a BG core for a good 15 months or so; I'm not a Patriot Delver player trying to trick you. For True name you have Lily. For 1-toughness spam you have a sideboard, Toxic Deluge, or a 1-of Charm (depending on what you like, your build, etc.) Even in this meta, -1/-1 and 1-damage spells are really hard to put into a deck since they're still dead against (or a mere 1-for-1) against most of the MUs you can get:
-Golgari Charm- A quick 20 Examples of bad MUs for it:
Merfolk, Goblins, all Delver, Burn, MUD, Lands, Miracles, Jund, Junk, Sneak Show, Storm*, Deathblade, Imperial Painter, 12-post, Tin Fins, Reanimator, Pox, Nic Fit, Omnitell, Tezzerator, Dredge
*Unless they blind EtW
You can get some value plays in rare occasions where you have the card, they overextend or have a bad hand or something.
Notice that at least half of those go away if you just had Bolt or Plow.
We've told you the reason Pure BG doesn't exist really; it's because you can find more efficient/better spells in other colors. What is your GCharm going to do against Iona? What is your Maelstrom Pulse going to do against Mirran Crusader? Why would you run Maelstrom Pulse before Bolt or Plow? Ever?
The spells you advocate are not of the same power level and are used to augment existing removal in decks. Things like GCharm, Deluge, Pulse, etc.. are perfectly fine spells, but they are slow, conditional, and specialized. They are best used as 1 or 2 of's and usually in the sideboard.
IMO any BGx deck starts with 2+ Lily, 3+ Decay, and 2+ removal from other colors (Dimir Charm, Bolt, Plow.) Using GCharm, Pulse, or even Deluge instead of any of those will be a generally be a weaker deck.
My assumption is not off base. You clearly haven't tried this idea or bothered to read The Rock/Junk forums; which *were* straight BG decks at one time; using Pernicious Deed. That hayday is long gone however because Delver decks, D&T, and Combo are all difficult to utilize that strategy on. It works much better to play efficient low-costed spells so you don't get eaten alive by competent Delver/D&T players (or even Maverick, but without revoker it's less of an issue.)
-If you've never played a game where a Mother of Runes locked the board down you don't understand how important having early game responses is.
-If you've never played a Lily/Innocent blood into a board of DRS, Goyf anything while you have something on your side of the board; you not only have to eat a 2-for-1 against yourself, you're still losing to a 4/5 or bigger. If you had just had Plow that wouldn't happen; you'd kill the goyf, keep your dude, and punch through the DRS no problem.
-If you've never looked at the Pulse in your hand staring down at a Delver and Goyf while you're being Wasted/Stifled/Dazed into oblivion, you won't realize how insanely important having redundant and cheap removal is for these decks to survive.
*They barely survive as is.* As a Junk player I can count the number of matches I've had against Junk/Jund on one hand. over the last year. The reason is because even with a third color the decks struggle to do more than a 3:1 ratio (which is the minimum to really get noticed at an SCG) and that's under competent pilots.
To put it another way, do you honestly think that between the below two decks:
That's the same number of removal, the same number of 2-for-1s, a much lower curve (you now have 2 free slots.) No Goyf stalls with SoFaF, no TNN stalls with SoFaI, better Elves/UR Delver/Burn/D&T MUs with Jitte, less bad top decks and IMO, a sturdier manabase even if it's weaker to wasteland/Moon. It has a draw engine in bob. It has better late game. It has ~2 slots I left open too.
Just battle those two decks against eachother 20 times. Yours will be lucky to have a 25% win rate.
I am not exaggerating.
EDIT: I have a guy in my LGS who runs straight BG in Modern and Legacy and I'd wager he runs BG in standard. It's a list much like yours but with Liliana's Caress in Waste Not's slots, Bobs where your Edicts are, and Obliterators where your Thruns are. He doesn't win his matches often; to the point that I'm confident he doesn't break even except on rare occasion.
I'm gonna beg to differ on your perception of Golgari Charm. Against Delver, it hits unflipped Delver and Young Pyromancer and his tokens. And TNN if they run it. Against burn, it destroys Eidolon and Sulfuric Vortex. Against Lands, Charm nails Exploration and Manabond (possibly even before it triggers). Maybe it's not the best card in that matchup, but it is not necessarily dead. Possibly against Miracles, it can nail a Counterbalance. Jund and Junk run some number of Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library that are susceptible to Charm, not to mention it can 1 for 1 Dark Confidant at worst. It nails Sneak Attack. It is an additional BG spell to nail Painter's Blood Moon. Some Reanimator lists are adding a singleton Animate Dead, which it could possibly hit. Targeting Omnitell's Omniscience doesn't seem like an awful idea.
I don't think BG is well positioned besides some really interesting reimagining of it, but Golgari Charm seems to warrant more attention than it has up to this point. It doesn't seem great in every matchup, but its utility seems to not be so easily replaced with Bolt or StP.
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Eva Green used to be a very competitive Tier 1 deck 4+ years ago. It's a relic of the past, when the archetype acquired some of its most powerful cards, Tombstalker in Future Sight and Thoughtseize in Lorwyn. When Maelstrom Pulse was released in Alara Reborn it got a little surge but was already in decline. Suicide rock decks are very vulnerable to combo strategies and don't scale as well as other midrange decks like Maverick and nowadays there's no reason not to run it with a color that provides more resilience and versatility, like red (Jund, Aggro Loam) and blue (Shardless BUG, BUG Delver, Team America)
This is an Eva Green list that got third place in GP Chicago in 2009, piloted by Paul Rietzl:
Eva Green was famous by it's broken (in more ways than one) combo of Dark Confidant revealing powerful spells like Tombstalker.
A control version of that shell also exists, BG Pox. It runs sacrifice effects instead of creatures and generates card advantage with Life from the Loam. You can check it out, it's mildly competitive right now because it can easily include Chalice of the Void. Here's a recent list:
B/G is a great color combination. It's just due to the nature of legacy we can color fix a lot easier to splash a third color to make the decks even better.
B/G alone is a solid combination in Modern. You got Rock with Obliterators and Tec Edges.
If you must have just B/G I think Loam Pox and Nic Fit are your best bets. Though Nic Fit is much better if you splash a third color with Blue, White, and Red all having their advantages and disadvantages.
you all make valid points but that isnt exactly what i'm aiming to understand here. when i talk about golgari im not talking about loam pox or nic fit, etc. those decks have their own specific mechanisms that arent golgari themed i.e. destroy, discard or control hate (thrun). just to have a bit more clarity if blue excels at control via disruption, golgari should excel at control via removal/discard. so when i talk about being viable im talking about the removal/discard mechanism being more dominate in the legacy format.
on a side note i prefer guile when using dark confidant, library is redundant life lose and top is unnecessary mana use. without DC its a toss up between sylvan library and top depending on your decks discard package.
anyway theres nothing wrong with that jund deck for example but i dont consider it a golgari deck because its clearly an aggro centric deck rather then control via removal/discard.
you all make valid points but that isnt exactly what i'm aiming to understand here. when i talk about golgari im not talking about loam pox or nic fit, etc. those decks have their own specific mechanisms that arent golgari themed i.e. destroy, discard or control hate (thrun). just to have a bit more clarity if blue excels at control via disruption, golgari should excel at control via removal/discard. so when i talk about being viable im talking about the removal/discard mechanism being more dominate in the legacy format.
on a side note i prefer guile when using dark confidant, library is redundant life lose and top is unnecessary mana use. without DC its a toss up between sylvan library and top depending on your decks discard package.
anyway theres nothing wrong with that jund deck for example but i dont consider it a golgari deck because its clearly an aggro centric deck rather then control via removal/discard.
The primary issue with Golgari is that it lacks a good 1-mama removal spell. This is why successful iterations of this strategy splash Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt.
Moreover, discard is terrible in a meta that's two-thirds Treasure Cruise, and there's a general lack of card advantage in those colors to supplement this gameplan.
To build upon this even further, discard doesn't stop top decks, therefore combo decks destroy you.
The rock and his millions, the cure, mr.cod are some examples of GB decks that used to win. I would call it more an issue of people would rather jam blue cards.
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played BG loam pox this past weekend with a lot of success. I don't know that it's bad, or even necesarily worse than other decks out there, but none of the decks I faced this weekend were well-equipped to handle the constant barrage of disruption - when you can hit lands, cards in hand, creatures all at the same time that can be a lot to overcome. plus I don't even play what I consider to be the better version of the deck due to lack of wasteland and sinkhole- and my opponents generally had a hard time a time answering when I played ensnaring bridge, and pinged them with Liliana and the rack or a cursed scroll.
you all make valid points but that isnt exactly what i'm aiming to understand here. when i talk about golgari im not talking about loam pox or nic fit, etc. those decks have their own specific mechanisms that arent golgari themed i.e. destroy, discard or control hate (thrun). just to have a bit more clarity if blue excels at control via disruption, golgari should excel at control via removal/discard. so when i talk about being viable im talking about the removal/discard mechanism being more dominate in the legacy format.
Um. How is loam pox not "golgari" by your definition (control via removal/discard)? The deck is almost literally nothing but removal and discard. Literally the only non-land cards in my loam pox list that are not either removal or discard are:
2x tombstalker
1x worm harvest
2x life from the loam (although it's mostly there to recur wasteland, so...)
Granted, loam pox isn't generally regarded as a good deck, but believe me it's better than people give it credit for.
I also agree with others who are saying that both punishing jund and junk are pretty much board control through discard and removal. Yeah, they're more aggressive, but that's because they have to be. Running cards like dark confidant without much or any lifegain means you'd better start attacking or you're going to die to your own bob.
There's also BUG control, which might be more what you're looking for? Basically all the good GB stuff (abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, pernicious deed, thoughtseize/IOK, liliana of the veil, assorted spot removal, ect), plus blue so you can run force of will, jace, the mind sculptor, snapcaster mage, brainstorm, ect. That deck is so control-oriented that some lists don't even run tarmogoyf. This deck also addresses the #1 weakness of pure GB as a deck: it doesn't run blue, which reduces consistency and makes the combo matchup worse. Jund and Junk beat combo with early discard and then praying goyf gets the job done fast enough (spoiler alert: it's often not fast enough), and pox does it by emptying your hand (it's hard to go off with only your topdeck). The problem with pox is it has trouble stabilizing against really fast decks like burn and affinity, and can struggle to seal the deal vs. a dedicated control deck before they land something backbreaking like jace.
Your proposed deck by the way will be better than jund/junk vs. combo with all that discard but worse vs. aggro and midrange (too many bad discard topdecks) and will get it's soul crushed by control because most of your cards will be dead, you don't have many threats, and you run almost zero card draw/filtering.
golgari has some amazing cores that have already found places in other decks splashing G or B but never in a winning golgari deck
so what exactly is weak about this color scheme that prevents it from taking a tournament?
if its deck fixing theres mirri's guile + dark confidant or fetch lands
is it generating card advantage? well if DC wasnt enough you could always try waste not
maybe its the creatures? black has some poor options for win cons if we arent talking about small creatures like bloodghast but green has some great stuff like tarmogoyf and in the case of golgari specific synergy thrun, the last troll
so what exactly is BG missing to make it more competitive? heres a deck list just for mulling over the concept
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Bayou
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Waste Not
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Extirpate
3 Toxic Deluge
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sinkhole
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
BGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGB
BG does have some success as Nic Fit, but basically, running BG means you have to justify that it is better than Junk or Jund if you're going to the grindy attrition route. As for your decklist, I think Mirri's Guile is better than Top, and that Dark Confidant is better than Waste Not. And Phyrexian Obliterator might be a possible option, too. I also don't know if Hymn to Tourach is where you want to be, in light of Treasure Cruise.
Here's a Jund list for possible comparison, what they run in terms of numbers of discard, threats, removal, etc.: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76649
After testing each Guile is neat but:
-You can never use that card you see
-You can't protect it
-You can't deal with redundant copies
It's neat that it plops T1 and fixes draws for free, but since you can't cantrip with it or get CA with it it just plays too "fair" IMO.
Either way: "Junk" or "The Rock" are what you're looking for. Typically it's a light white splash for Plow and you can go deeper if you want SFM and such. It's hard to justify having no White/Red/Blue cards though when the manabase can easily support it.
I will say that I think Waste Not is better than it was; due to the presence of Cruise decks (meaning your discard normally has targets.) I could see it dropping T2 with a follow-up Thoughtseize or a Hymn the next turn. Hardly amazing, but it could be worth testing.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
on a side note i prefer guile when using dark confidant, library is redundant life lose and top is unnecessary mana use. without DC its a toss up between sylvan library and top depending on your decks discard package.
anyway theres nothing wrong with that jund deck for example but i dont consider it a golgari deck because its clearly an aggro centric deck rather then control via removal/discard.
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
BGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGB
Obviously BG as a color scheme is used fairly heavily, often with a third color. Many multicolor Legacy decks tend to do this. Once you've decided to expose yourself by using a non-basic land base, adding a third color becomes reasonably trivial, and Deathrite Shaman just makes it even easier.
But you seem to be talking about the block theme strategy "Golgari". And if thats the case, then unarguably the most competitive "Golgari themed" deck is Dredge. What other Ravnica guild has a Legacy deck named after its mechanic?
Golgari is all about using the graveyard for stuff in both Ravnica blocks.
Frankly you need to define where you are getting your definition for what is and is not "Golgari".
A deck that controls the game with discard and removal? Thats basically the definition of a midrange Jund deck. There isnt only one way to build the deck, and depending on the meta it can shift to be more aggressive or more controlling.
The deck you listed in the OP is pretty much strictly worse than the same deck with Punishing Fire. Also, I find your lack of Dark Confidants disturbing.
If you plan on building such a deck, I'd drop a copy of Urborg, and drop Mirri's Guile, replacing it with Sylvan Library which is a bit more suited to the task.
Based on strategy, Dredge is a golgari deck, it runs off of the dredge mechanic and plays around in its graveyard.
i could have called the thread B/G and everyone would just think im talking about loam pox and not the broader synergies. what im trying to discuss isnt BG when splashed, or a BG mechanic, but the more general utility of the BG pairing, discard,removal, control hate
as to the subject of a third color adding versatility lets discuss this a bit more in depth. in specific we are talking about swords to plowshares or lightning bolt any other cards and we are leaving the scope of discard/removal/control hate and entering into the area of overall deck strategy outside of color theme.
the argument is that by splashing we gain the ability to remove a creature or being able to extend damage to the player. i would be careful because this is very meta/ very deck specific. with respect to the first card we are dropping something for more removal, something that isnt necessarily needed depending on the context. for example would you splash for swords against TNN? or is diabolic edict, golgari charm, innocent blood better utility then splashing a third color, the same can be said for lightning bolt. the only time lightning bolt is a better option is when we can use that player damage more effectively with our core. which once again is only a good consideration if we are talking about an aggro package splashing red for a control package is probably not optimal if the control package is support for a none aggro based win con.
think of it this way if i take a single dredge,loam,etc card and put it into any other deck type does it provide the same level of utility then if i were to do the same with a removal/discard card. if not i dont consider it as part of the broader golgari card theme.
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
BGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGB
I know you don't want to hear this, but you just described Punishing Jund to the letter: discard for disruption (Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, LotV) followed by removal (Abrupt Decay, Punishing Fire, LotV) and a win condition (Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf). The "general utility" (your words) of the pairing is exactly what Jund already does. It just so happens to also splash red because it makes the deck better, and there's almost no penalty for doing so.
The primary problem with this strategy, and the reason I retired it after playing it since the Kai Budde Rock days, is that it just isn't strong enough in comparison to the rest of the field. If you want to play a grindy attrition game, there are decks that do it better (Lands, 4C Loam, Deathblade). If you want to play an aggro-control game, Delver does it better while shoring up some of the greatest weaknesses of the deck (combo primarily).
But ultimately, it comes down to the fact that you're playing off the top of your library with a relatively soft win condition (small / medium creatures) minimal deck manipulation, and no reach to close out a game. Discard spells are awful top decks after turn 3-4, as they do nothing against a topdecking opponent, and they do nothing to impact the boardstate. So while spells like Thoughtseize and Hymn are very powerful on the early turns, they get drastically worse the longer the game goes, and BG is not able to present a particularly fast clock. There's also the problem of one-for-one'ing an opponent who will eventually out-advantage you with something like JtMS, Treasure Cruise, Stoneforge Mystic, etc., or simply combo off regardless of the early setback.
I'm the world's biggest B/G fan (it's right there in my name ), but a deck needs more of a gameplan than discard + removal to compete in the modern era of Legacy.
And I would pose your question inversely: What advantage is there to not splashing a third color? Wasteland and Blood Moon are certainly considerations to make, but beyond that, there's relatively little penalty for splashing a third or 4th color with these types of decks.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
Bolt/Plow go in anything without caring. They're a cool guy and don't afraid of anything.
You're misunderstanding comes from not understanding how mana-efficient Legacy has to be for spells to be played and successful in a general meta. That doesn't mean you won't get someone with Charm/Blood; but it does mean you'll start losing games because those weren't better spells.
The strategy of: is exactly how Jund and Junk do *anything.* Any non-blue deck relies on this formula unless it lacks black *and* blue, in which case it's removal/aggro/hatebears or some kind of blood moon/stompy deck or just loses to combo. (If I missed something, let's not be pedantic.) Just because my removal spell is in white and the most-efficient removal *in the game* doesn't make it "not removal/discard control", and just because Bolt can kill someone doesn't mean it's not also more efficient than just about any other black kill spell in the format.
Now, if you think adding Stoneforge to a deck makes it "not removal/discard" control, you're mistaken. The reason she exists is because Equips turn every dude into a serious threat; threats that happen to kill opponent's creatures if they connect. That's removal. That's control. It's boosting reliability of your topdecks.
Also.. you should seriously play Top/Library over Guile. I'd go play them some more. The other two cards are *significantly* more powerful either via actual CA, burst CA, or simply getting rid of it for a real card when you're in a pinch.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
The primary issue with Golgari is that it lacks a good 1-mama removal spell. This is why successful iterations of this strategy splash Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt.
Moreover, discard is terrible in a meta that's two-thirds Treasure Cruise, and there's a general lack of card advantage in those colors to supplement this gameplan.
nope im perfectly ok with this, im not dismissing your argument at all, i agree with where your coming from in fact. but my question on the subject is more within the scope of why isnt the B/G variant more dominant as a control type deck there is just a massive amount of viable cards and they keep popping up in so many deck lists all on their own but it seems like they have never culminated into a single deck with a stronger b/g identity. i find it really curious.
your assumption is way off base here, mana efficiency is becoming far less relevant in the legacy meta with more high threat, low answer cards being printed splashing for these cards is becoming less relevant as a result. if we are talking about a stronger w/r color identity deck then those are natural cards to side in but if we are talking about splashing, those types of cards are becoming less of a relevant option. tell me what will these cards do against true-name nemesis. the distinction here is that while they are highly mana efficient their usefulness is becoming just as narrow as the cards i have listed
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
BGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGB
-Golgari Charm- A quick 20 Examples of bad MUs for it:
*Unless they blind EtW
You can get some value plays in rare occasions where you have the card, they overextend or have a bad hand or something.
Notice that at least half of those go away if you just had Bolt or Plow.
We've told you the reason Pure BG doesn't exist really; it's because you can find more efficient/better spells in other colors. What is your GCharm going to do against Iona? What is your Maelstrom Pulse going to do against Mirran Crusader? Why would you run Maelstrom Pulse before Bolt or Plow? Ever?
The spells you advocate are not of the same power level and are used to augment existing removal in decks. Things like GCharm, Deluge, Pulse, etc.. are perfectly fine spells, but they are slow, conditional, and specialized. They are best used as 1 or 2 of's and usually in the sideboard.
IMO any BGx deck starts with 2+ Lily, 3+ Decay, and 2+ removal from other colors (Dimir Charm, Bolt, Plow.) Using GCharm, Pulse, or even Deluge instead of any of those will be a generally be a weaker deck.
My assumption is not off base. You clearly haven't tried this idea or bothered to read The Rock/Junk forums; which *were* straight BG decks at one time; using Pernicious Deed. That hayday is long gone however because Delver decks, D&T, and Combo are all difficult to utilize that strategy on. It works much better to play efficient low-costed spells so you don't get eaten alive by competent Delver/D&T players (or even Maverick, but without revoker it's less of an issue.)
-If you've never played a game where a Mother of Runes locked the board down you don't understand how important having early game responses is.
-If you've never played a Lily/Innocent blood into a board of DRS, Goyf anything while you have something on your side of the board; you not only have to eat a 2-for-1 against yourself, you're still losing to a 4/5 or bigger. If you had just had Plow that wouldn't happen; you'd kill the goyf, keep your dude, and punch through the DRS no problem.
-If you've never looked at the Pulse in your hand staring down at a Delver and Goyf while you're being Wasted/Stifled/Dazed into oblivion, you won't realize how insanely important having redundant and cheap removal is for these decks to survive.
*They barely survive as is.* As a Junk player I can count the number of matches I've had against Junk/Jund on one hand. over the last year. The reason is because even with a third color the decks struggle to do more than a 3:1 ratio (which is the minimum to really get noticed at an SCG) and that's under competent pilots.
To put it another way, do you honestly think that between the below two decks:
Yours:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Bayou
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
// Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Waste Not
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
My interpretation:
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
// Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
That's the same number of removal, the same number of 2-for-1s, a much lower curve (you now have 2 free slots.) No Goyf stalls with SoFaF, no TNN stalls with SoFaI, better Elves/UR Delver/Burn/D&T MUs with Jitte, less bad top decks and IMO, a sturdier manabase even if it's weaker to wasteland/Moon. It has a draw engine in bob. It has better late game. It has ~2 slots I left open too.
Just battle those two decks against eachother 20 times. Yours will be lucky to have a 25% win rate.
I am not exaggerating.
EDIT: I have a guy in my LGS who runs straight BG in Modern and Legacy and I'd wager he runs BG in standard. It's a list much like yours but with Liliana's Caress in Waste Not's slots, Bobs where your Edicts are, and Obliterators where your Thruns are. He doesn't win his matches often; to the point that I'm confident he doesn't break even except on rare occasion.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
I don't think BG is well positioned besides some really interesting reimagining of it, but Golgari Charm seems to warrant more attention than it has up to this point. It doesn't seem great in every matchup, but its utility seems to not be so easily replaced with Bolt or StP.
This is an Eva Green list that got third place in GP Chicago in 2009, piloted by Paul Rietzl:
2 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants [7]
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual
Sorceries [14]
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [22]
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
6 Swamp
1 Choke
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dodecapod
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
3 Seal of Primordium
Eva Green was famous by it's broken (in more ways than one) combo of Dark Confidant revealing powerful spells like Tombstalker.
A control version of that shell also exists, BG Pox. It runs sacrifice effects instead of creatures and generates card advantage with Life from the Loam. You can check it out, it's mildly competitive right now because it can easily include Chalice of the Void. Here's a recent list:
3 Bloodghast
Instants [6]
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Entomb
Sorceries [18]
1 Raven's Crime
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
Enchantments [2]
2 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers [4]
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Barren Moor
2 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Crop Rotation
2 Extirpate
2 Golgari Charm
1 Nature's Claim
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Karakas
B/G alone is a solid combination in Modern. You got Rock with Obliterators and Tec Edges.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
To build upon this even further, discard doesn't stop top decks, therefore combo decks destroy you.
The rock and his millions, the cure, mr.cod are some examples of GB decks that used to win. I would call it more an issue of people would rather jam blue cards.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Um. How is loam pox not "golgari" by your definition (control via removal/discard)? The deck is almost literally nothing but removal and discard. Literally the only non-land cards in my loam pox list that are not either removal or discard are:
2x tombstalker
1x worm harvest
2x life from the loam (although it's mostly there to recur wasteland, so...)
Granted, loam pox isn't generally regarded as a good deck, but believe me it's better than people give it credit for.
I also agree with others who are saying that both punishing jund and junk are pretty much board control through discard and removal. Yeah, they're more aggressive, but that's because they have to be. Running cards like dark confidant without much or any lifegain means you'd better start attacking or you're going to die to your own bob.
There's also BUG control, which might be more what you're looking for? Basically all the good GB stuff (abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, pernicious deed, thoughtseize/IOK, liliana of the veil, assorted spot removal, ect), plus blue so you can run force of will, jace, the mind sculptor, snapcaster mage, brainstorm, ect. That deck is so control-oriented that some lists don't even run tarmogoyf. This deck also addresses the #1 weakness of pure GB as a deck: it doesn't run blue, which reduces consistency and makes the combo matchup worse. Jund and Junk beat combo with early discard and then praying goyf gets the job done fast enough (spoiler alert: it's often not fast enough), and pox does it by emptying your hand (it's hard to go off with only your topdeck). The problem with pox is it has trouble stabilizing against really fast decks like burn and affinity, and can struggle to seal the deal vs. a dedicated control deck before they land something backbreaking like jace.
Your proposed deck by the way will be better than jund/junk vs. combo with all that discard but worse vs. aggro and midrange (too many bad discard topdecks) and will get it's soul crushed by control because most of your cards will be dead, you don't have many threats, and you run almost zero card draw/filtering.