So I was looking around for decks to create for legacy when I found shamans. They look really good as a tribe! Although they may not get 1st place every single time, they look really good so that's why im asking, why isn't no one playing with them? Do they have any unfavorable matchups or something?
What makes them a good tribe, except for the powerful Deathrite Shaman?
Legacy's successful tribal decks include Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, Slivers, and to some extent Soldiers. Elves is the clear leader. All of these creature strategies (except Goblins) have some trouble with Miracles. What does Shaman bring to the table that these other tribes do not?
Shamanism is a tribal Shaman deck that focuses on swarming Shamans and using Rage Forger to push through enough damage to finish off the opponent. Other tribal decks may have more lords, but this deck should be able to see Rage Forger often enough. Almost every card in the deck provides some sort of card advantage, or at least card quality advantage. The main way of finding Rage Forger Is by using tutors that shamans have plenty of ( which are other shamans)
As for the elves being a clear leader, ummmm no. Take out their mana dorks and their combo goes kapish.great tribe but pretty easy to dismantle. Though elves really don't have anything to do with this thread. I just want to know why that is all. Maybe someone who actually knows shamans are a tribe?
Not trying to be snobby. I really want to understand shamans since they look so good. Deathrite shaman is just a really big bonus
I have never heard of Shamans. How about a decklist, chief?
Also, I just looked up Rage Forger. There is a reason I was unfamiliar with it. Why on this planet would I pay three mana for that guy, and search for him? Really? Are you sure Legacy is the format you are looking for?
See, you're not going to build a viable Legacy deck around ramping with Sachi or cheating stuff out with Leaf-Crown Elder. This leaves Rage Forger-powered aggro, and why play Rage Forger and sub-par aggro creatures when you could play good aggro creatures without needing Rage Forger to make them good?
Because their main colours are red and green, color slots for other better supported tribes. Goblins are just way faster and end the game by turn three, not to mention goblin matron acts as a tutor (among many other goblin-esk card advantages that are fairly superior to what shamans have). Green has elves that reliably combo out just as fast as goblins can dish out game winning attack steps.
Basically any aggro strategy from shaman builds will be completely outclassed by goblin decks. The same is true for combo builds being outclassed by elf decks.
I see your point about rage forger but the point is that since all the shamans share each other as a creature type they all do something when they come into play for the most part. Still I guess it's not very
Aight well I guess shamans were fun to look at unless someone can redeem them (anyone?)
Now I'm off to find new things! Off to the tree folk!
By "Elves is the clear leader," I was referring merely to their tournament results. They are the only tribal deck listed in The Source's DTB section, which was recently updated. There's little justification in pushing any of the other tribes. They aren't as good as Elves. Elves is a good example because it makes use of the other type of Deathrite Shaman: Elves vs. Shamans can be compared using this shared card as an axis.
What I am gently trying to suggest is that the reason few people play Shamans, and that those who do try it do not achieve distinction, is that despite this appearance of being good they are outgunned by pretty much everything.
Would you mind submitting a proposed decklist of the Shaman deck for further consideration? I think that would be helpful. It doesn't matter if it's rough or untested.
As for the elves being a clear leader, ummmm no. Take out their mana dorks and their combo goes kapish.great tribe but pretty easy to dismantle. Though elves really don't have anything to do with this thread.
The latest Combo Elves builds play 3-4 Natural Order and 4 Green Sun's Zenith for 2 Craterhoof Behemoth. In fact, they tend to win with NO/GSZ/Hoof and not Glimpse of Nature more than half the time in Game 1 (at least from my experience playing the deck on Cockatrice).
Rip out all their creatures and they're crying for NO into Progenitus in the board...about half their deck is creatures, though, so good luck.
I play shamans in modern, simply because I have no interest in the format and needed a cheap deck to play. That being said, it's not a very good modern deck either, although it is fun. Porting it to legacy would hardly help.
If you really do want to play shamans, though, play the modern version. You'll have a better chance against modern deck rather than legacy decks.
Ok what I meant to say is that elves are good tribe but it's situational. Elves are really good and any deck can win by turn three given the proper hand and the right cards ( not to put down elves in any way).
I'm just saying that there are other tribes and elves have nothing to do with the question Im asking
... they look really good so that's why im asking, why isn't no one playing with them? Do they have any unfavorable matchups or something?
I think the Elves question has a lot to do with what you're asking. Elves, Miracles, and DnT pushed a lot of the midrange tribal strategies out of the format. Elves preys upon their weakness to combo, Miracles has a 1 mana instant board wipe, and DnT offers a mid+late game plan that doesn't lose to Miracles.
Shamans would have unfavorable matchups against all three of these decks, and would need pretty much a 90% matchup against the rest of the field to make up for that.
Ok what I meant to say is that elves are good tribe but it's situational. Elves are really good and any deck can win by turn three given the proper hand and the right cards ( not to put down elves in any way).
I'm just saying that there are other tribes and elves have nothing to do with the question Im asking
Elves isn't situation dependent, it's just a solid deck.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Elves is insanely consistent. They have elvish visionary, one of the best cards in the elf deck is that because it cantrips on a body. Their tutor package is insane. Their curve is insanely low as well. I see no reason to sling shamans in legacy especially if it's weak in modern where that format is substantially less powerful than legacy. Play shamans against UR delver or some real deck in legacy and you'll see why it has issues. Especially combo, which just destroys you. Creativity is cool but it doesn't win tournaments typically.
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Ok what I meant to say is that elves are good tribe but it's situational. Elves are really good and any deck can win by turn three given the proper hand and the right cards ( not to put down elves in any way).
I'm just saying that there are other tribes and elves have nothing to do with the question Im asking
If you want people to answer your question then you shouldn't say silly thing like "elves are bad," nor ask why no one is playing shamans because the answer is they are a worse tribe than elves, merfolk, goblins, soldiers, and probably worse than a couple non-existant decks like humans. 99.99% of the reason to play shamans in legacy is deathrite who is an elf that synergizes well with the deck.
Next time ask a question like "I want to play shamans, can people help?" In the.casual section of this forum.
Anyway for treefolk and shamans the leaf-crowned elder is probably the best tribal card for either deck. You won't win most legacy games with either though.
Legacy's successful tribal decks include Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, Slivers, and to some extent Soldiers. Elves is the clear leader. All of these creature strategies (except Goblins) have some trouble with Miracles. What does Shaman bring to the table that these other tribes do not?
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
As for the elves being a clear leader, ummmm no. Take out their mana dorks and their combo goes kapish.great tribe but pretty easy to dismantle. Though elves really don't have anything to do with this thread. I just want to know why that is all. Maybe someone who actually knows shamans are a tribe?
Not trying to be snobby. I really want to understand shamans since they look so good. Deathrite shaman is just a really big bonus
Also, I just looked up Rage Forger. There is a reason I was unfamiliar with it. Why on this planet would I pay three mana for that guy, and search for him? Really? Are you sure Legacy is the format you are looking for?
Now, the list of Shaman support cards that might be playable:
See, you're not going to build a viable Legacy deck around ramping with Sachi or cheating stuff out with Leaf-Crown Elder. This leaves Rage Forger-powered aggro, and why play Rage Forger and sub-par aggro creatures when you could play good aggro creatures without needing Rage Forger to make them good?
Basically any aggro strategy from shaman builds will be completely outclassed by goblin decks. The same is true for combo builds being outclassed by elf decks.
I see your point about rage forger but the point is that since all the shamans share each other as a creature type they all do something when they come into play for the most part. Still I guess it's not very
Aight well I guess shamans were fun to look at unless someone can redeem them (anyone?)
Now I'm off to find new things! Off to the tree folk!
in legacy, they have no chance beyond kitchen table.
What I am gently trying to suggest is that the reason few people play Shamans, and that those who do try it do not achieve distinction, is that despite this appearance of being good they are outgunned by pretty much everything.
Would you mind submitting a proposed decklist of the Shaman deck for further consideration? I think that would be helpful. It doesn't matter if it's rough or untested.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
The latest Combo Elves builds play 3-4 Natural Order and 4 Green Sun's Zenith for 2 Craterhoof Behemoth. In fact, they tend to win with NO/GSZ/Hoof and not Glimpse of Nature more than half the time in Game 1 (at least from my experience playing the deck on Cockatrice).
Rip out all their creatures and they're crying for NO into Progenitus in the board...about half their deck is creatures, though, so good luck.
If you really do want to play shamans, though, play the modern version. You'll have a better chance against modern deck rather than legacy decks.
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I'm just saying that there are other tribes and elves have nothing to do with the question Im asking
I think the Elves question has a lot to do with what you're asking. Elves, Miracles, and DnT pushed a lot of the midrange tribal strategies out of the format. Elves preys upon their weakness to combo, Miracles has a 1 mana instant board wipe, and DnT offers a mid+late game plan that doesn't lose to Miracles.
Shamans would have unfavorable matchups against all three of these decks, and would need pretty much a 90% matchup against the rest of the field to make up for that.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Elves isn't situation dependent, it's just a solid deck.
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If you want people to answer your question then you shouldn't say silly thing like "elves are bad," nor ask why no one is playing shamans because the answer is they are a worse tribe than elves, merfolk, goblins, soldiers, and probably worse than a couple non-existant decks like humans. 99.99% of the reason to play shamans in legacy is deathrite who is an elf that synergizes well with the deck.
Next time ask a question like "I want to play shamans, can people help?" In the.casual section of this forum.
Anyway for treefolk and shamans the leaf-crowned elder is probably the best tribal card for either deck. You won't win most legacy games with either though.
Also a fan of dungrove elder.