Where I play there is a limit on proxy's for legacy/vintage. In legacy it's 4, vintage is 8 from memory (I don't play vintage so I can't remember)
I like it personally, I would have no problems if people turned up with a higher proxy count - I just wanna play.
Something that always irritated me about MTG at any level was being beaten by my opponent's wallet, not just their skill at the game. It's something that always cheapened the game for me, and gave me the same feeling of contempt that you get when you see an 18 year old driving to school in a sports car you know their daddy bought for them.
I'm absolutely fine with proxies. I'd rather win or lose to the player, not their bank account.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks BUReanimatorBU GWUBAtraxa InfectGWUB
Something that always irritated me about MTG at any level was being beaten by my opponent's wallet, not just their skill at the game. It's something that always cheapened the game for me, and gave me the same feeling of contempt that you get when you see an 18 year old driving to school in a sports car you know their daddy bought for them.
I'm absolutely fine with proxies. I'd rather win or lose to the player, not their bank account.
You're not losing to their bank account, you're losing to your own choice not to purchase. The cards are equally available to all players.
@rcwraspy, that's a bit of an over simplification. Telling some poorer player that it's a choice whether to buy a car or a Legacy deck is not totally fair. I'm older than all the people at my LGS, have more disposable income than they do, and hve been collecting since '94. I can clean house in eternal formats compared to most of them by $$$ value alone, so yes, sometimes you are playing against an individual's bank account. People shouldn't be looked down upon because they can't dump thousands of dollars into a game. And it sucks loosing over and over again simply because of finance. It'd be like racing economy cars against sports cars, just a little unfair. So if l want to play any eternal Magic locally l have to either allow proxies, or play Pauper for it to be a level playing field.
And cards are not "equally available to everyone". Not everybody has the same level of disposable income to play with. I'm not going to tell some young dude with a mediocre job, a kid and bills that his priorities are screwd up because he can't afford dual lands. And l'm also not going to insist he shouldn't play Legacy because he's too poor. If people want to proxy up for some casial pick up games then cool.
Something that always irritated me about MTG at any level was being beaten by my opponent's wallet, not just their skill at the game. It's something that always cheapened the game for me, and gave me the same feeling of contempt that you get when you see an 18 year old driving to school in a sports car you know their daddy bought for them.
I'm absolutely fine with proxies. I'd rather win or lose to the player, not their bank account.
You're not losing to their bank account, you're losing to your own choice not to purchase. The cards are equally available to all players.
The cards may be equally available, but money isn't. Perodequeso was more articulate than I'm about to be, but I think he summed up my point pretty well. I'd rather sit down and play a game of MTG to have a good time than rub my disposable income in someone's face (or have someone else flaunt theirs). Let r/MTGfinance have their fun, as much as I personally think buying MTG cards like stock harms the game as a whole, but I don't think that I or anyone else should be priced out of a game we enjoy.
Personally I don't think proxying the older cards that are prohibitively expensive harms Wizards at all, since they refuse to reprint them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks BUReanimatorBU GWUBAtraxa InfectGWUB
Something that always irritated me about MTG at any level was being beaten by my opponent's wallet, not just their skill at the game. It's something that always cheapened the game for me, and gave me the same feeling of contempt that you get when you see an 18 year old driving to school in a sports car you know their daddy bought for them.
I'm absolutely fine with proxies. I'd rather win or lose to the player, not their bank account.
You're not losing to their bank account, you're losing to your own choice not to purchase. The cards are equally available to all players.
The cards may be equally available, but money isn't. Perodequeso was more articulate than I'm about to be, but I think he summed up my point pretty well. I'd rather sit down and play a game of MTG to have a good time than rub my disposable income in someone's face (or have someone else flaunt theirs). Let r/MTGfinance have their fun, as much as I personally think buying MTG cards like stock harms the game as a whole, but I don't think that I or anyone else should be priced out of a game we enjoy.
Personally I don't think proxying the older cards that are prohibitively expensive harms Wizards at all, since they refuse to reprint them.
I feel you on the costs. The problem is that the haves don't want their cards devalued and the guys selling genuine cards as singles and trying to make a living don't want their merchandise devalued either. However, if wizards doesn't reprint them, I don't see why it's a bad thing to buy proxies assuming the quality is up to par. It sounds like a great way to flesh out a cube or getting cards like Scalding Tarn, that are just in way too much demand and printed ages ago.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I feel you on the costs. The problem is that the haves don't want their cards devalued and the guys selling genuine cards as singles and trying to make a living don't want their merchandise devalued either. However, if wizards doesn't reprint them, I don't see why it's a bad thing to buy proxies assuming the quality is up to par. It sounds like a great way to flesh out a cube or getting cards like Scalding Tarn, that are just in way too much demand and printed ages ago.
I disagree with a lot of this post. I agree that singles sellers don't want cards devalued if they're sitting on a large stock, which I suspect is a relatively small number of sellers. Otherwise, they have a lot to gain from cheaper cards moving faster. Margins on buying and selling singles are small. Selling a stack of Seas at $40-50 a pop is likely making them more money than selling one or two at $250-300. WotC has demonstrated that they can manage reprints well enough to drop card values without cratering them, so I'm sure they can reprint responsibly. For players, it's been my experience that legacy players are more interested in having opponents than watching a portfolio of expensive cards slowly appreciate. We mostly bought our cards to play with. Future value is a side perk at best. Along those lines, I don't think I've ever met a legacy player (in person, I've seen a couple online) who was opposed to proxies outside of sanctioned events.
I'm still generally opposed to buying proxies, particularly if they're a recreation of the actual card and not alternate art. It seems like you're on much shakier legal ground once someone is making money on it. It's not difficult to get access to a color printer and make decent ones to test with or stick in a cube.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
In general given the state of the secondary market on certain kinds of cards I'm fine with good quality proxies purchased via vendor. The main legal issue is the precedent implied, which is that it is okay to do so for all mtg cards in general. It's a dilemma as old as the concept of copyright, which has issues in it being abused from both sides of the coin.
Also, I'm only okay with this for lands like scalding tarn or taiga.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Our LGS allows people to play with an unlimited number of proxies, but adds surcharges to those who use them in an effort to promote buying into the format, and require the front of the proxy be effectively indistinguishable from a real card (official art in color, not just sharpie crap) to make sure the players are invested enough.
All in all it's worked. Most of us are playing with minimal proxies (the only ones in using are cards the shop doesn't have, and duals that I have been buying into.) and the people who seem to play a new deck every week are willing to chip in the extra $10 to play weird things like high tide and nourishing lich. Obviously my meta isn't representative of everyone, but it has worked pretty well so far.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
@rcwraspy, that's a bit of an over simplification. Telling some poorer player that it's a choice whether to buy a car or a Legacy deck is not totally fair. I'm older than all the people at my LGS, have more disposable income than they do, and hve been collecting since '94. I can clean house in eternal formats compared to most of them by $$$ value alone, so yes, sometimes you are playing against an individual's bank account. People shouldn't be looked down upon because they can't dump thousands of dollars into a game. And it sucks loosing over and over again simply because of finance. It'd be like racing economy cars against sports cars, just a little unfair. So if l want to play any eternal Magic locally l have to either allow proxies, or play Pauper for it to be a level playing field.
And cards are not "equally available to everyone". Not everybody has the same level of disposable income to play with. I'm not going to tell some young dude with a mediocre job, a kid and bills that his priorities are screwd up because he can't afford dual lands. And l'm also not going to insist he shouldn't play Legacy because he's too poor. If people want to proxy up for some casial pick up games then cool.
First I just want to reiterate that I don't have a problem with proxies when just playing for fun as long as I know beforehand. I also don't have a problem with non-sanctioned events allowing proxies as long as there are rules about the proxies and those rules are enforced.
But it really is just as simple as what I said above - that playing with a sub-par deck because you don't have the expensive cards is not "losing to your opponent's bank account," but instead it's losing to your own decision not to purchase/trade into those cards. The reason here doesn't matter whatsoever. It could be the best decision in the world to not buy the cards. Dr. Evil could have his finger on the "world goes boom" button and tell you that buying that card would mean billions die and you choose not to buy. Kudos, good decision. That doesn't change the fact that it was still a decision you made.
What I have a problem with is people getting a draft common and writing "BRAINSTORM" over it for all 75 cards in their deck. Its honestly a pain in the neck for me for me to read the cards and decipher what they're playing
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
If someone proxied check lands because they already own 8+ copies and its silly to continue buying more, I don't really mind.
But we've ousted people from our play group who had countless proxies of $100+ cards and could never prove they actually owned any of them. The bulk of us don't mind playing with actual value so it shouldn't have been hard to prove they at least owned some of those cards.
Magic marker cradle in every other deck pffft GTFO
At the card store, I really don't like seeing this. Its an insult to those who buy cards from the case. Especially in legacy. I recon card stores may tolerate it simply because expensive format costs could limit customer involvement at the store.
Our LGS allows people to play with an unlimited number of proxies, but adds surcharges to those who use them in an effort to promote buying into the format, and require the front of the proxy be effectively indistinguishable from a real card (official art in color, not just sharpie crap) to make sure the players are invested enough.
All in all it's worked. Most of us are playing with minimal proxies (the only ones in using are cards the shop doesn't have, and duals that I have been buying into.) and the people who seem to play a new deck every week are willing to chip in the extra $10 to play weird things like high tide and nourishing lich. Obviously my meta isn't representative of everyone, but it has worked pretty well so far.
My Shop does something similar just charges $2 per proxie (only valid during that tournament) and you get that amount back in store credit. You could proxie an entire deck/side board for $150 (and get $150 in store credit for doing so) Its really clever for getting sales and getting people in to the format! You play once a week and you will have enough money to buy most staples.
we've ousted people from our play group who had countless proxies of $100+ cards and could never prove they actually owned any of them.
Y'all sound like the kind of group I'd count myself lucky to be ousted from. I'd rather find people who are tolerant and not focused on the pay-to-win aspect of the game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Here are the little self-imposed guidelines I'm working with for the multiplayer decks I've been building:
• Must be cheap. Total price tag < $100, preferably < $50. Ideally ~$30. No one card greater than about ~$6
• Format: Modern (makes getting the cards somewhat easier for the play group, and almost all my cards are Modern-legal)
• Must be relatively interesting in 1:1 games. I don't need to win against Splinter Twin, but I should be able to play duels now and then
• Avoid instant-win combos; they only serve to make me target #1, and then the deck is worse than useless because I get killed first, every time
• Must have a funny name!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I like it personally, I would have no problems if people turned up with a higher proxy count - I just wanna play.
gimme a break
I'm absolutely fine with proxies. I'd rather win or lose to the player, not their bank account.
Current Decks
BUReanimatorBU
GWUBAtraxa InfectGWUB
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
And cards are not "equally available to everyone". Not everybody has the same level of disposable income to play with. I'm not going to tell some young dude with a mediocre job, a kid and bills that his priorities are screwd up because he can't afford dual lands. And l'm also not going to insist he shouldn't play Legacy because he's too poor. If people want to proxy up for some casial pick up games then cool.
The cards may be equally available, but money isn't. Perodequeso was more articulate than I'm about to be, but I think he summed up my point pretty well. I'd rather sit down and play a game of MTG to have a good time than rub my disposable income in someone's face (or have someone else flaunt theirs). Let r/MTGfinance have their fun, as much as I personally think buying MTG cards like stock harms the game as a whole, but I don't think that I or anyone else should be priced out of a game we enjoy.
Personally I don't think proxying the older cards that are prohibitively expensive harms Wizards at all, since they refuse to reprint them.
Current Decks
BUReanimatorBU
GWUBAtraxa InfectGWUB
I feel you on the costs. The problem is that the haves don't want their cards devalued and the guys selling genuine cards as singles and trying to make a living don't want their merchandise devalued either. However, if wizards doesn't reprint them, I don't see why it's a bad thing to buy proxies assuming the quality is up to par. It sounds like a great way to flesh out a cube or getting cards like Scalding Tarn, that are just in way too much demand and printed ages ago.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm still generally opposed to buying proxies, particularly if they're a recreation of the actual card and not alternate art. It seems like you're on much shakier legal ground once someone is making money on it. It's not difficult to get access to a color printer and make decent ones to test with or stick in a cube.
Also, I'm only okay with this for lands like scalding tarn or taiga.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
All in all it's worked. Most of us are playing with minimal proxies (the only ones in using are cards the shop doesn't have, and duals that I have been buying into.) and the people who seem to play a new deck every week are willing to chip in the extra $10 to play weird things like high tide and nourishing lich. Obviously my meta isn't representative of everyone, but it has worked pretty well so far.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
But it really is just as simple as what I said above - that playing with a sub-par deck because you don't have the expensive cards is not "losing to your opponent's bank account," but instead it's losing to your own decision not to purchase/trade into those cards. The reason here doesn't matter whatsoever. It could be the best decision in the world to not buy the cards. Dr. Evil could have his finger on the "world goes boom" button and tell you that buying that card would mean billions die and you choose not to buy. Kudos, good decision. That doesn't change the fact that it was still a decision you made.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
What I have a problem with is people getting a draft common and writing "BRAINSTORM" over it for all 75 cards in their deck. Its honestly a pain in the neck for me for me to read the cards and decipher what they're playing
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
But we've ousted people from our play group who had countless proxies of $100+ cards and could never prove they actually owned any of them. The bulk of us don't mind playing with actual value so it shouldn't have been hard to prove they at least owned some of those cards.
Magic marker cradle in every other deck pffft GTFO
At the card store, I really don't like seeing this. Its an insult to those who buy cards from the case. Especially in legacy. I recon card stores may tolerate it simply because expensive format costs could limit customer involvement at the store.
My Buying Thread
My Shop does something similar just charges $2 per proxie (only valid during that tournament) and you get that amount back in store credit. You could proxie an entire deck/side board for $150 (and get $150 in store credit for doing so) Its really clever for getting sales and getting people in to the format! You play once a week and you will have enough money to buy most staples.
Y'all sound like the kind of group I'd count myself lucky to be ousted from. I'd rather find people who are tolerant and not focused on the pay-to-win aspect of the game.
• Must be cheap. Total price tag < $100, preferably < $50. Ideally ~$30. No one card greater than about ~$6
• Format: Modern (makes getting the cards somewhat easier for the play group, and almost all my cards are Modern-legal)
• Must be relatively interesting in 1:1 games. I don't need to win against Splinter Twin, but I should be able to play duels now and then
• Avoid instant-win combos; they only serve to make me target #1, and then the deck is worse than useless because I get killed first, every time
• Must have a funny name!