My opinion on proxies has changed over the years. I used to be against them feeling that you should own and play with the real cards. As time has gone on and the manner that the Reserve List has made it incredibly difficult to find many cards and the price is even more oppressive than finding them, I am fine with them. I have seen Vintage and Legacy thrive locally since some local shops have begun allowing unlimited proxies for use in play. Would I rather have an option to play Legacy regularly even if it means playing against proxied cards and decks? Or would I rather not have the option to play Legacy regularly because the obscurity of cards and price keeps so many people from playing? For me, in the end, it is about the GAME of Magic. Proxies, even high quality proxies, don't adversely affect the prices of collections, but they open up the game to many people who otherwise couldn't play. All that being said, if someone proxies a card they should strive to get the best proxy that they can. If you are going to proxy Tundras and Underground Seas, for example, at the least print off some pictures of those cards from the net and tape them to a basic land- don't just write "Tundra. Tap for U or W." on the card.
My playgroup plays with a lot of foil dual lands and they always joke about how much better they look than my wb ones, and I'm cool with that.
In the past I've done proxies to test out a new deck - and those proxies were high res images on photo paper that looked real enough that nobody knew they were fake until they looked close. I only made them with the intention of getting real cards if the deck proved playworthy.
Where we draw the line is when you proxy high end cards you don't own and you have no intention of ever getting the real thing - imperial seal, grim tutor, tabernacle of pendrell vale, etc. We also discourage proxies of the sharpie-on-paper variety unless its temporary and the real card is in the mail.
Using proxies is like using fake chess pieces: I don't care whether anyone does it or not. What I do care about is having the opportunity to play Legacy or not. Well, as long as game play decisions aren't affected by the card being a proxy.
Corporate Governance (WB, Enchant World): Whenever a player casts a spell, send $1 to WOTC. If Corporate Governance is not a genuine WOTC card, sacrifice it.
This.
Bad proxies are frustrating. But if they look good, then why not?
Everyone does not have $1000+ to play some legacy decks, and should not be expected to.
Obviously in a tournament where cash prizes are on the line, proxies should be limited, or completely restricted.
What infuriates me is when someone wants to play legacy, then gets angry/complains/refuses to play because my (insert expensive cards) are a printed on a piece of paper pressed to a land. They are perfectly readable and look good, but because they aren't real, I get flak, and sometimes people who refuse to play.
That is a slap in the face. I work a full time job, go to college full time, and you're going to complain because I won't shell out a grand on some cardboard? I can't be bothered to blow that kind of money when I have bills, tuition, and a slew of other expenses.
People who refuse proxies in a friendly/casual match need to step down from their elitist throne of greatness and understand that not everyone has money to blow on a game. I just want to play and have fun. How can Wizards expect a format like Legacy to grow if a handful of the cards are on the reserve list?
As a time goes on, and more people start playing magic, the supply of duals and such will dwindle, and prices will go up. This pushes people away from the format as well as encourages counterfeiting. I want my chance of winning to based on my skill, not my wallet.
Using proxies is like using fake chess pieces: I don't care whether anyone does it or not. What I do care about is having the opportunity to play Legacy or not. Well, as long as game play decisions aren't affected by the card being a proxy.
Corporate Governance (WB, Enchant World): Whenever a player casts a spell, send $1 to WOTC. If Corporate Governance is not a genuine WOTC card, sacrifice it.
This.
Bad proxies are frustrating. But if they look good, then why not?
Everyone does not have $1000+ to play some legacy decks, and should not be expected to.
Obviously in a tournament where cash prizes are on the line, proxies should be limited, or completely restricted.
What infuriates me is when someone wants to play legacy, then gets angry/complains/refuses to play because my (insert expensive cards) are a printed on a piece of paper pressed to a land. They are perfectly readable and look good, but because they aren't real, I get flak, and sometimes people who refuse to play.
That is a slap in the face. I work a full time job, go to college full time, and you're going to complain because I won't shell out a grand on some cardboard? I can't be bothered to blow that kind of money when I have bills, tuition, and a slew of other expenses.
People who refuse proxies in a friendly/casual match need to step down from their elitist throne of greatness and understand that not everyone has money to blow on a game. I just want to play and have fun. How can Wizards expect a format like Legacy to grow if a handful of the cards are on the reserve list?
As a time goes on, and more people start playing magic, the supply of duals and such will dwindle, and prices will go up. This pushes people away from the format as well as encourages counterfeiting. I want my chance of winning to based on my skill, not my wallet.
People who refuse proxies in a friendly/casual match make perfect sense. Proxies allow you to play with a wider range of cards then you would normally.
Therefore, in theory, a person who brings a proxy based deck to a casual match will ALWAYS have an advantage over someone who is playing zero proxies.
The only time I personally feel proxies are acceptable are in play testing scenarios.
I think proxies are totally fine in any non-tournament context, assuming all involved parties are alright with it. My friend group runs a legacy league similar to the VSL in which we have unlimited proxies allowed. We all own real legacy decks but being able to play whatever we want in the league definitely adds a lot to the experience for us.
As for in real tournaments, if there was a way for proxies to be played without concerns of marked cards or clear rules text coming up I'd be fine with that given WOTCs continually dwindling support for the format.
The only person who I have ever met who was mad about proxies in a casual setting was the dude who brought legacy ANT to my playgroup when we were just starting out. Oh hey, neat deck, but how are we supposed to beat it? Get some force of wills. Oh that card is a ton of money, can we just proxy it? NO, that's cheating.
Personally, i'm totally fine with proxies, the secondary market is out of hand, and the reserve list is strangling legacy.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I am in favor of proxies, but i realize everyone might not be. I actally am in favor because of aentimental reasons.
I started Magic back in '94 and stupidly sold my collection around 2002. I had 5 of the power 9, all 40 duals, Moats, Abysses, FoWs, Mana Drains, Gaea's Cradles, and tons of other great cards. I had several extended decks (Three-Deuce, 21, Oath of Druids, Nightmare Survival, etc) and a pretty good Nether Void deck and a partially powered Keeper Deck for Type 1. I sold all of that for about $2500 in college because I was in some financial difficulty and I didn't think i'd want to play again. Well, I decided to get back in and I am so sickened by the prices of everything. Knowing i can't afford to re-buy what I previously had. Heck, the $2500 wouldn't even build 1 top tier deck now. So, I Proxy. And I buy a few cards here and there and hopefully will be able to build some decks eventually.
What I don't like: a deck of 75 proxies. Players don't put any effort into the deck and don't care about a good format.
What I do like: unsanctioned tournaments allowing 5 to 10 proxies. You still have to have some kind of commitment to picking up the non outrageously expensive cards so you learn how to play a good clean game with your chosen deck. I am 2 blue duals away from completing ANT and hate losing because I can only afford to play 2 shocks in their place. I am slowly saving up for them, but with the holidays and a few changes in my financial situation, they are not in my immediate future.
Legacy would be completely dead in my area if it weren't for one store doing proxy tournaments. Now it has picked up so much that they are doing aways with the proxies and there is a really fun scene on Tuesday nights.
I don't care what they look like, when I'm testing I have a square of paper with the card name and mana cost written on it, p/t if it is a creature.
My deck is finished and has been for a while but I'm still encourage other players to proxy as many cards as they want. I don't care how much money they save or spend, I just want to have people to play my favorite format with.
It depends on the situation. I almost never use them and it sort of "disgusts" me; but I can play against proxies; and I'm understanding since I played some terrible piles to stay budget in my early stages of legacy (painlands, shocklands, lots of basics, etc..)
You should be able to pay to proxy your deck , have the coin enter a prize pool, so that anyone who wants to drop $20 occasionally to play MTG and proxy much of their deck or change and play different decks occasionally can, and then everyone benefits from people doing this.
I like this idea. Incentive to "invest" but you don't have to.
That said, who's going to pay $30 to enter a $10 local?
Kitchen Table: Don`t overdo it. Trying out a card or got something in the mail, that`s fine. One or two expensive cards that synergizes too well with your deck not to play, that`s okay. Old duals in your EDH deck or power in your casual? Get out of here.
Small tournaments/FNMs: I can get behind a limited number of proxies, like 5 for Legacy or 10 for Vintage, but not full proxy. People showing up with 75 inkjets means people are less likely to commit to a deck, which is bad for the game, but if allowing a few proxied U-Seas, Candelabras and Karakas…es (Karaki?) will raise the attendance numbers, that`s good for everyone. Edit: I`ve seen a shop have two entry fees in Legacy events, regular price for no proxies, double it for up to ten proxies. It makes perfect sense, that`s a good model.
i don't mind playing against 75 well made proxies not backwards cards with a piece of paper that says Jace, the mind sculptor.
personally i would never use proxies unless it's EDH.
That poll is way too black and white, definitely needs some middle options. For example, proxying things like Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall is one thing, but someone might feel differently about proxying something like a Siege Rhino.
I personally don't love proxies, they cheapen the experience for me somewhat, unless you're talking about extremely pricey cards P9, LoA, etc.
Yup. I can't vote.
I sleeve up playtest cards for new decks I'm interested in all the time, as do friends sometimes. But I would never do that for a deck long term or medium term.
ON THE OTHER HAND I think that proxy events are great unsanctioned ways to introduce players to a format who otherwise couldn't, whether vintage, legacy, or even modern or standard.
Also, not to bring it up as a topic because it is exhausting, but there is a different between a proxy/playtest card and a forgery...please make your playtest cards not look the same (custom art, "not for sale", black and white ink, etc)
A long time ago, in a dorm room far, far away, my B & U deck got into a fight with a cup of beer.
We didn't make out too badly, all the cards were sleeved (double sleeves didnt exist at the time) and nothing was destroyed. A lot of the cards were damaged, mostly none worth mentioning except the 1 Mana Drain, the 1 Force of Will, my alpha Demonic Tutor, and 1 of my Juzám Djinns. Like I said, none of these cards were a total loss and theyre all still playable in sleeves, but it also still kind of bugs me every time i see them.
Im a big believer in proxies.
i make high quality copies of my cards and glue them to basic lands. Then I mark the back with a sharpie and sleeve them up. With a quick glance, or on the table during a game, they look just fine, if you really look or take them out of the sleeve, theyre obviously photo copies, even if you dont turn it over and see the big black "PROXY" written on it.
At first, I just made proxies of my expensive cards, Moxes, duals, and the like.
but when youre talking about something like a magic card, thats the thickness of a piece of paper, then you glue another piece of paper to it, its twice as thick as the real cards in the deck.
Even in sleeves the cards felt different. If i touched my deck, I could tell if the next card i was going to draw would be a proxy or not.
The deck shuffled weird. All the proxies seemed to gravitate to each other when you shuffled it. Like i'd get ALL of the proxies stacked right next to each other.
The deck cut weird. Almost any time you would cut the deck, it would cut to one of the proxies. A friend of mine at the time wanted to prove a point, he cut the deck 50 times and over 40 of them one of my proxies was right on top. It's kind of fun being almost sure that youre going to start the game with one of the power 9 in your hand, but its certainly cheating.
So I proxied the entire deck. From the cards that list in the thousands, down to the cards that sell for less then a dollar. Since then the deck has played fine, shuffled fine, and looked fine. Anyone I play against is told before the game starts that all the cards are copies and, like a lot of other people have said, Ive never had anyone turn me down for a game after ive told them.
My short answer is that all of the cards in the deck have to be proxies or none of them can be. For me, the cutoff is around $100. If cards in the deck routinely sell for more then 100, Ill proxy the entire deck. Most of my decks are made of real cards with no proxies.
I take great pride in my proxies, I try to make them look as much like my real cards as I can. My alpha cards are made from alpha lands, and yes i spilled beer on my proxies of the beer damaged cards.
Ever since I copied my deck, I basically bring it everywhere. It sits in my backpack, I take it on the train with me to work everyday, it comes on vacation with me. On more then one occasion ive met a total stranger or walked into a store in a different state and wound up playing a quick game, just because i happen to have the deck with me.
Sometimes on the train, some one who plays magic will see me messing with my cards and its fun to watch them bug out on my cards until i explain that theyre copies, then we sit and talk about magic for the rest of the ride.
Since the copies are basically worthless from a monetary point of view, I have no problems letting my kids play with them. Watching my 7 year old daughter get the Time Vault combo right to beat the 10 year old boy from next door was a lot of fun.
Without the copies, none of these things would happen. My favorite decks, some of which ive been playing with for 20 years, would just sit in my house hidden away and unused.
Thats how I feel about proxies in casual play between strangers or slight acquaintances. With your friends, or in your usual play group, the decision would have to be up to the people involved. Personally I cant imagine refusing to play with someone who has decent proxies. I say 'decent' because Im not that familiar with a lot of the newer cards, so if the proxy doesnt have the card text clearly shown, I might not be able to play against it.
As far as tournaments go.....
If youre going to play in tournaments where cash and prizes are on the line, I believe you should have to own all the cards in your deck. Otherwise I feel that its unfair to the people who do actually own the cards, and why should anyone buy any cards at all if copies are going to be treated the same way as real cards? Yes, some formats are more expensive then others, but thats life. I like race cars, but I cant have a formula 1 racer because they cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I CAN afford to rent time at a local track and race a camaro around for a few hours, so thats the type of racing i can do.
That being said, things happen. I simply dont play in vintage tournaments because even the small chance that something could happen to the cards in that deck is too much for me to take. I know it's a shame that monetary concerns have come into my enjoyment of my hobby, but in real life I bought A LOT of magic cards in the 90s just because I loved them, but now it looks like im going to be able to use them to help pay for my daughters college. Shuffling with them, playing with them, laying them out on a table in a room full of dozens of strangers....its just not something im going to do.
I wish there was a way you could "register" your cards. Like I show the judge 4 mana drains, and Im authorized to use 4 mana drain proxies for the duration of the tournament. Then I could lock the real cards back in my car, or tie them around my waist or whatever. Maybe there could even be a permanent, or yearly registration with the DCI although I dont really know how that would work in practice.
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My decks. Feel free to make suggestions. The Precious B___U___G___R___W
Wow, talk about necro'd thread. Well, since it's been like, two years, new developments have altered my view on proxies slightly. Let's clarify.
1) When using a proxy, your proxy should be a recognizable proxy of what it's representing unless you're doing the most rudimentary of testing. If it's a permanent proxy, it should never be "sharpie on card." You're already saving $1000 by not having to get an actual Tabernacle, can you at least make a decent proxy of one?
2) Your proxies should be proxies, not counterfeits. If you are using proxies designed to pass as actual cards, I don't want to trade with you, and if I see you trading, I'm probably gonna ask the guy you just traded 3 Misty Rainforests to see those cards when you're not around. So help you if you traded one of those proxies away as the real deal, even if was "on accident." You're automatically on my watch list if I see you using proxies on this level. They should be identifiable as both a Mana Drain and a proxy of a Mana Drain through a sleeve.
If your proxies meet the above conditions, I'm fine with you using them in the following scenarios (and do so myself):
A) If you actually own the card and don't want to expose it to play wear (e.g. the Tabernacle and Ravages of War in my EDH deck are both proxies for this reason)
B) If you are playing in a nonsanctioned event. I'm happy to have the higher turnout proxies allow for in unsanctioned Legacy events, and I feel like EDH players should be able to at least have access to dual lands. Obviously I don't think anyone gives two rips about what you do at the kitchen table, so for casual play/playtesting purposes before purchasing/unsanctioned events- sure, I'm have no problem playing against you provided I'm not playing against sharpies and notebook paper. If it's an unsanctioned event though, your proxy should at least be indistinguishable from the rest of your deck. I find that doublesleeving my deck and leaving the inner sleeve off of the proxy (printed on copy paper, cut and lightly pasted onto a real card) is pretty much perfect.
C) If you are playtesting. I get that you want to try playing Reanimator to make sure you like it before you buy intro it. Totally cool with me! Let's play some Magic! I also get that it takes time to buy that last Underground Sea you need! Play with it as long as you need to, I'm just happy we get to play! However, when there's a sanctioned event.......
I) Proxies should NOT be used for sanctioned play. I wish the policy on this could be slackened JUUUUST a little bit as card values are a little crazy (e.g. each player is permitted two proxies of their choice, issued by the judge, provided they can prove possession of the actual card for the duration of the event). Judges and tournament staff have a lot of things to juggle and worry about already though, so I understand not wanting to add to their duties. Anyway, allowing proxies into sanctioned events devalues owners of the real thing, and removes any incentive for anyone to buy the actual ones from dealers.
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Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
I feel that proxies are okay if you want to test a card(s) in your deck without actually buying them first. Especially with the cost of some cards, its good to be able to test them before spending 100s on them
However, proxies shouldn't be allowed in tournaments, since that defeats the purpose of actually buying the cards
The poll is far too black and white so I won't vote, but here are my thoughts
Modern: See Legacy, but add in that if I'm doing a pick-up game at an LGS I'll want to be alerted beforehand whether it's someone's "test" deck with proxies.
.
This one strikes me odd as I can't see why that would make a difference. Is the game less enjoyable if a proxy comes out unexpectedly? I know this is your thought and I will accept it but disagree with it.
I don't really care what people do on this subject and it's fine by me.
The poll is far too black and white so I won't vote, but here are my thoughts
Modern: See Legacy, but add in that if I'm doing a pick-up game at an LGS I'll want to be alerted beforehand whether it's someone's "test" deck with proxies.
.
This one strikes me odd as I can't see why that would make a difference. Is the game less enjoyable if a proxy comes out unexpectedly? I know this is your thought and I will accept it but disagree with it.
I don't really care what people do on this subject and it's fine by me.
it's because most proxies are difficult to read and lack images to identify. So I want to know beforehand that I'm going to have to pay attention to something that's not an issue in a normal game, though foreign cards are a hassle also.
if you want to have legacy tournaments without proxies, expect 50% of the field to be burn.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Current decks:
Legacy: Zoo, Aggro Elves, The Gate, White Weenie, Red Deck Wins, and Merfolk. Currently building Solidarity.
Casual: Warp World Revolution and Old School Red-Green.
Standard: Ob-Nixilis Wave and Elves.
In the past I've done proxies to test out a new deck - and those proxies were high res images on photo paper that looked real enough that nobody knew they were fake until they looked close. I only made them with the intention of getting real cards if the deck proved playworthy.
Where we draw the line is when you proxy high end cards you don't own and you have no intention of ever getting the real thing - imperial seal, grim tutor, tabernacle of pendrell vale, etc. We also discourage proxies of the sharpie-on-paper variety unless its temporary and the real card is in the mail.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
This.
Bad proxies are frustrating. But if they look good, then why not?
Everyone does not have $1000+ to play some legacy decks, and should not be expected to.
Obviously in a tournament where cash prizes are on the line, proxies should be limited, or completely restricted.
What infuriates me is when someone wants to play legacy, then gets angry/complains/refuses to play because my (insert expensive cards) are a printed on a piece of paper pressed to a land. They are perfectly readable and look good, but because they aren't real, I get flak, and sometimes people who refuse to play.
That is a slap in the face. I work a full time job, go to college full time, and you're going to complain because I won't shell out a grand on some cardboard? I can't be bothered to blow that kind of money when I have bills, tuition, and a slew of other expenses.
People who refuse proxies in a friendly/casual match need to step down from their elitist throne of greatness and understand that not everyone has money to blow on a game. I just want to play and have fun. How can Wizards expect a format like Legacy to grow if a handful of the cards are on the reserve list?
As a time goes on, and more people start playing magic, the supply of duals and such will dwindle, and prices will go up. This pushes people away from the format as well as encourages counterfeiting. I want my chance of winning to based on my skill, not my wallet.
People who refuse proxies in a friendly/casual match make perfect sense. Proxies allow you to play with a wider range of cards then you would normally.
Therefore, in theory, a person who brings a proxy based deck to a casual match will ALWAYS have an advantage over someone who is playing zero proxies.
The only time I personally feel proxies are acceptable are in play testing scenarios.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
As for in real tournaments, if there was a way for proxies to be played without concerns of marked cards or clear rules text coming up I'd be fine with that given WOTCs continually dwindling support for the format.
Personally, i'm totally fine with proxies, the secondary market is out of hand, and the reserve list is strangling legacy.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I started Magic back in '94 and stupidly sold my collection around 2002. I had 5 of the power 9, all 40 duals, Moats, Abysses, FoWs, Mana Drains, Gaea's Cradles, and tons of other great cards. I had several extended decks (Three-Deuce, 21, Oath of Druids, Nightmare Survival, etc) and a pretty good Nether Void deck and a partially powered Keeper Deck for Type 1. I sold all of that for about $2500 in college because I was in some financial difficulty and I didn't think i'd want to play again. Well, I decided to get back in and I am so sickened by the prices of everything. Knowing i can't afford to re-buy what I previously had. Heck, the $2500 wouldn't even build 1 top tier deck now. So, I Proxy. And I buy a few cards here and there and hopefully will be able to build some decks eventually.
thanks to DNC of Heroes of the Plane Studios for the coolest sig
vintage-WBdark timesBW
legacy-BGRJund-51/60BGR
RBBob Sligh 48/60BR
GRone land belcherRG
URBTES-54/60URB
Fun deck-BBBBKobolds stormBBBB
What I do like: unsanctioned tournaments allowing 5 to 10 proxies. You still have to have some kind of commitment to picking up the non outrageously expensive cards so you learn how to play a good clean game with your chosen deck. I am 2 blue duals away from completing ANT and hate losing because I can only afford to play 2 shocks in their place. I am slowly saving up for them, but with the holidays and a few changes in my financial situation, they are not in my immediate future.
Legacy would be completely dead in my area if it weren't for one store doing proxy tournaments. Now it has picked up so much that they are doing aways with the proxies and there is a really fun scene on Tuesday nights.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
I agree with those who say it cheapens the experience.
My deck is finished and has been for a while but I'm still encourage other players to proxy as many cards as they want. I don't care how much money they save or spend, I just want to have people to play my favorite format with.
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
Monthly Proxy Legacy
Charlotte/Greensboro area, NC
Pm me for details
I like this idea. Incentive to "invest" but you don't have to.
That said, who's going to pay $30 to enter a $10 local?
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Kitchen Table: Don`t overdo it. Trying out a card or got something in the mail, that`s fine. One or two expensive cards that synergizes too well with your deck not to play, that`s okay. Old duals in your EDH deck or power in your casual? Get out of here.
Small tournaments/FNMs: I can get behind a limited number of proxies, like 5 for Legacy or 10 for Vintage, but not full proxy. People showing up with 75 inkjets means people are less likely to commit to a deck, which is bad for the game, but if allowing a few proxied U-Seas, Candelabras and Karakas…es (Karaki?) will raise the attendance numbers, that`s good for everyone. Edit: I`ve seen a shop have two entry fees in Legacy events, regular price for no proxies, double it for up to ten proxies. It makes perfect sense, that`s a good model.
Competitive+ REL: No.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Obviously, for anything sanctioned, proxies wouldn't be allowed, but local tournaments might be willing to allow proxies, and I'd be fine with that.
personally i would never use proxies unless it's EDH.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
Yup. I can't vote.
I sleeve up playtest cards for new decks I'm interested in all the time, as do friends sometimes. But I would never do that for a deck long term or medium term.
ON THE OTHER HAND I think that proxy events are great unsanctioned ways to introduce players to a format who otherwise couldn't, whether vintage, legacy, or even modern or standard.
Also, not to bring it up as a topic because it is exhausting, but there is a different between a proxy/playtest card and a forgery...please make your playtest cards not look the same (custom art, "not for sale", black and white ink, etc)
We didn't make out too badly, all the cards were sleeved (double sleeves didnt exist at the time) and nothing was destroyed. A lot of the cards were damaged, mostly none worth mentioning except the 1 Mana Drain, the 1 Force of Will, my alpha Demonic Tutor, and 1 of my Juzám Djinns. Like I said, none of these cards were a total loss and theyre all still playable in sleeves, but it also still kind of bugs me every time i see them.
Im a big believer in proxies.
i make high quality copies of my cards and glue them to basic lands. Then I mark the back with a sharpie and sleeve them up. With a quick glance, or on the table during a game, they look just fine, if you really look or take them out of the sleeve, theyre obviously photo copies, even if you dont turn it over and see the big black "PROXY" written on it.
At first, I just made proxies of my expensive cards, Moxes, duals, and the like.
but when youre talking about something like a magic card, thats the thickness of a piece of paper, then you glue another piece of paper to it, its twice as thick as the real cards in the deck.
Even in sleeves the cards felt different. If i touched my deck, I could tell if the next card i was going to draw would be a proxy or not.
The deck shuffled weird. All the proxies seemed to gravitate to each other when you shuffled it. Like i'd get ALL of the proxies stacked right next to each other.
The deck cut weird. Almost any time you would cut the deck, it would cut to one of the proxies. A friend of mine at the time wanted to prove a point, he cut the deck 50 times and over 40 of them one of my proxies was right on top. It's kind of fun being almost sure that youre going to start the game with one of the power 9 in your hand, but its certainly cheating.
So I proxied the entire deck. From the cards that list in the thousands, down to the cards that sell for less then a dollar. Since then the deck has played fine, shuffled fine, and looked fine. Anyone I play against is told before the game starts that all the cards are copies and, like a lot of other people have said, Ive never had anyone turn me down for a game after ive told them.
My short answer is that all of the cards in the deck have to be proxies or none of them can be. For me, the cutoff is around $100. If cards in the deck routinely sell for more then 100, Ill proxy the entire deck. Most of my decks are made of real cards with no proxies.
I take great pride in my proxies, I try to make them look as much like my real cards as I can. My alpha cards are made from alpha lands, and yes i spilled beer on my proxies of the beer damaged cards.
Ever since I copied my deck, I basically bring it everywhere. It sits in my backpack, I take it on the train with me to work everyday, it comes on vacation with me. On more then one occasion ive met a total stranger or walked into a store in a different state and wound up playing a quick game, just because i happen to have the deck with me.
Sometimes on the train, some one who plays magic will see me messing with my cards and its fun to watch them bug out on my cards until i explain that theyre copies, then we sit and talk about magic for the rest of the ride.
Since the copies are basically worthless from a monetary point of view, I have no problems letting my kids play with them. Watching my 7 year old daughter get the Time Vault combo right to beat the 10 year old boy from next door was a lot of fun.
Without the copies, none of these things would happen. My favorite decks, some of which ive been playing with for 20 years, would just sit in my house hidden away and unused.
Thats how I feel about proxies in casual play between strangers or slight acquaintances. With your friends, or in your usual play group, the decision would have to be up to the people involved. Personally I cant imagine refusing to play with someone who has decent proxies. I say 'decent' because Im not that familiar with a lot of the newer cards, so if the proxy doesnt have the card text clearly shown, I might not be able to play against it.
As far as tournaments go.....
If youre going to play in tournaments where cash and prizes are on the line, I believe you should have to own all the cards in your deck. Otherwise I feel that its unfair to the people who do actually own the cards, and why should anyone buy any cards at all if copies are going to be treated the same way as real cards? Yes, some formats are more expensive then others, but thats life. I like race cars, but I cant have a formula 1 racer because they cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I CAN afford to rent time at a local track and race a camaro around for a few hours, so thats the type of racing i can do.
That being said, things happen. I simply dont play in vintage tournaments because even the small chance that something could happen to the cards in that deck is too much for me to take. I know it's a shame that monetary concerns have come into my enjoyment of my hobby, but in real life I bought A LOT of magic cards in the 90s just because I loved them, but now it looks like im going to be able to use them to help pay for my daughters college. Shuffling with them, playing with them, laying them out on a table in a room full of dozens of strangers....its just not something im going to do.
I wish there was a way you could "register" your cards. Like I show the judge 4 mana drains, and Im authorized to use 4 mana drain proxies for the duration of the tournament. Then I could lock the real cards back in my car, or tie them around my waist or whatever. Maybe there could even be a permanent, or yearly registration with the DCI although I dont really know how that would work in practice.
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
1) When using a proxy, your proxy should be a recognizable proxy of what it's representing unless you're doing the most rudimentary of testing. If it's a permanent proxy, it should never be "sharpie on card." You're already saving $1000 by not having to get an actual Tabernacle, can you at least make a decent proxy of one?
2) Your proxies should be proxies, not counterfeits. If you are using proxies designed to pass as actual cards, I don't want to trade with you, and if I see you trading, I'm probably gonna ask the guy you just traded 3 Misty Rainforests to see those cards when you're not around. So help you if you traded one of those proxies away as the real deal, even if was "on accident." You're automatically on my watch list if I see you using proxies on this level. They should be identifiable as both a Mana Drain and a proxy of a Mana Drain through a sleeve.
If your proxies meet the above conditions, I'm fine with you using them in the following scenarios (and do so myself):
A) If you actually own the card and don't want to expose it to play wear (e.g. the Tabernacle and Ravages of War in my EDH deck are both proxies for this reason)
B) If you are playing in a nonsanctioned event. I'm happy to have the higher turnout proxies allow for in unsanctioned Legacy events, and I feel like EDH players should be able to at least have access to dual lands. Obviously I don't think anyone gives two rips about what you do at the kitchen table, so for casual play/playtesting purposes before purchasing/unsanctioned events- sure, I'm have no problem playing against you provided I'm not playing against sharpies and notebook paper. If it's an unsanctioned event though, your proxy should at least be indistinguishable from the rest of your deck. I find that doublesleeving my deck and leaving the inner sleeve off of the proxy (printed on copy paper, cut and lightly pasted onto a real card) is pretty much perfect.
C) If you are playtesting. I get that you want to try playing Reanimator to make sure you like it before you buy intro it. Totally cool with me! Let's play some Magic! I also get that it takes time to buy that last Underground Sea you need! Play with it as long as you need to, I'm just happy we get to play! However, when there's a sanctioned event.......
I) Proxies should NOT be used for sanctioned play. I wish the policy on this could be slackened JUUUUST a little bit as card values are a little crazy (e.g. each player is permitted two proxies of their choice, issued by the judge, provided they can prove possession of the actual card for the duration of the event). Judges and tournament staff have a lot of things to juggle and worry about already though, so I understand not wanting to add to their duties. Anyway, allowing proxies into sanctioned events devalues owners of the real thing, and removes any incentive for anyone to buy the actual ones from dealers.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
However, proxies shouldn't be allowed in tournaments, since that defeats the purpose of actually buying the cards
This one strikes me odd as I can't see why that would make a difference. Is the game less enjoyable if a proxy comes out unexpectedly? I know this is your thought and I will accept it but disagree with it.
I don't really care what people do on this subject and it's fine by me.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
if you want to have legacy tournaments without proxies, expect 50% of the field to be burn.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i