I can't see any of the spoiled mechanics being any good for Legacy at all. More creature-centric sets and abilities? Really?
For me, this would be 6 sets in a row that have offered me next to nothing for the kind of Magic that I play. Theros block is horrid overall and the last two sets from RTR block were awful too. The only set with anything in it for Legacy was RTR itself.
Ugh, I can't remember ever being this unexcited for new Magic cards for this long.
what about the supplemental sets as in the last commander decks (TNN)?
The supplemental stuff has been ok, I mean Conspiracy was pretty cool and contained some nice reprints for Legacy. TNN has obviously shook up Legacy a bit, but I'm talking about the big expansions here, the bread and butter of Magic.
what about the supplemental sets as in the last commander decks (TNN)?
The supplemental stuff has been ok, I mean Conspiracy was pretty cool and contained some nice reprints for Legacy. TNN has obviously shook up Legacy a bit, but I'm talking about the big expansions here, the bread and butter of Magic.
I agree. I'd love to get something along the scope of Innistrad or RtR again. We had some very nice development from those two.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
what about the supplemental sets as in the last commander decks (TNN)?
The supplemental stuff has been ok, I mean Conspiracy was pretty cool and contained some nice reprints for Legacy. TNN has obviously shook up Legacy a bit, but I'm talking about the big expansions here, the bread and butter of Magic.
With WotC's recent design philosophies for standard and modern, it is beginning to seem that supplemental sets are the new bread and butter of legacy.
Eidolon of the Great Revel is pretty nice, Satyr Firedancer is seeing some play, as are Swan Song, Young Pyromancer, Ashen Rider and Spirit of the Labyrinth. Reprints of Thoughtseize and Mutavault certainly didn't suck either.
I'd hardly call that nothing for legacy.
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Legacy: WRDeath and Taxes UWRMiracles UBTezzerator GTrinity GBWRLoam URLandstill
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
We know two of the mechanics and three cards. Let us give it some time before we write off Khans for Legacy.
Legacy is not an easy format to design cards for in Standard sets. Cards that affect Legacy are either really narrow in applications to Standard (Mental Misstep, DRS, and Swan Song) or so powerful they warp Standard (like Delver, Snapcaster, and Jace tMS). Not every cards can be Abrupt Decay or Eidolon of the Great Revel where it is an all star across multiple formats and not format warping.
Non-Standard sets have been good for Legacy, like Conspiracy reprinting some good staples of the format.
what about the supplemental sets as in the last commander decks (TNN)?
The supplemental stuff has been ok, I mean Conspiracy was pretty cool and contained some nice reprints for Legacy. TNN has obviously shook up Legacy a bit, but I'm talking about the big expansions here, the bread and butter of Magic.
With WotC's recent design philosophies for standard and modern, it is beginning to seem that supplemental sets are the new bread and butter of legacy.
I bought fat packs and boosters of all of those sets, played in drafts to get those cards and I haven't done so for the last 5 big releases (Gatecrash,Dragon's Maze and all of Theros block). Khans looks to be shaping up to be another dud (I know it's early, but usually they spoil stuff to get players excited).
Most of those are fringe playable except for the Sage, even Dark Stage Combo isn't that popular. Compare that to RtR, with Decay, and DRS and it's not even close. INN block had Miracles and Delver. Scars had Batterskull, MM, Swords, Tezz, etc. Zen, Alara, Lor, and TS, etc are all huge game changers. From GTC through JOU the sets have not just been weak for Legacy but just weak in general, probably why sales have contracted.
There is a difference between nothing and format changing. It would be nice to have more Legacy cards, but it is hard to come up with a card that is not degenerative to Standard but format changing in Legacy. Legacy is not what sells Standard sets. It is draft and Standard, EDH/Commander, then Modern, then Legacy. The supplementary product is where WotC is freed from other format constraints. Of course, WotC does not want to disturb the balance of Legacy since it is in a good place right now. It is not easy.
I didn't find this statement in this article, but I'll believe you that it's in there.
What I did read was what looked like a massive apology for the failure of the Theros block to deliver on multiple levels of design.
Seems to mesh with my feeling that the block was very lackluster in general. Underpowered, and a missed opportunity with a great theme (Greek Mythology). This thread is not a "bash Theros" thread however, I just hope that they learned a lesson with Theros block going forward with Khans of Takir. So far, the spoilers have not made me feel that they have.
I didn't find this statement in this article, but I'll believe you that it's in there.
What I did read was what looked like a massive apology for the failure of the Theros block to deliver on multiple levels of design.
Seems to mesh with my feeling that the block was very lackluster in general. Underpowered, and a missed opportunity with a great theme (Greek Mythology). This thread is not a "bash Theros" thread however, I just hope that they learned a lesson with Theros block going forward with Khans of Takir. So far, the spoilers have not made me feel that they have.
We have seen like 3 cards. Any conclusions you are jumping to are very premature. Also, contrary to popular belief, WoTC DOES actually consider legacy in design... At least in supplementary sets. Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, TNN, Council's Judgment are just a few of the cards made with legacy in mind and all had some major impacts.
We also still have gotten the usual 3-5 playable new/reprinted cards in each set, even in Theroes block's sets. I think a lot of people got spoiled by return to ravinca and Innistrad. They were very rare exceptions for legacy playables.
Consider this fact: For the past few years, and probably for the foreseeable future, legacy is getting getting more impactful cards than modern is. I don't really think we have much to complain about. Legacy has been evolving at a good pace. Just look back, 2 years ago Canadian Threshold, Esper Stoneblade and Maverick were the top decks for about a whole year, since then many new archetypes have been created, reinvented, or died out. Just to name a few: Shardless BUG, UWR delver, UB Tezzeret, Jund, Deathblade became things. Imperial painter, D&T, Show and Tell, Counterbalance all became powerful decks. Goblins, Standstill, Stiflenaught went from solid decks, to near obsoletion.
What you all think about the prowess mechanic and the jeskai elder? the elder doesn't feel strong enough but I'm starting to like the mechanics. It feels like it has potential to get out of hand in the older formats, being borderline usable maybe? I really can't make up my mind on the mechanic right now, I feel it could be something terrible or horribly broken if printed on the right cards. I understand we're talking about legacy but prowess in vintage could be easily usable in fish strats and well... maybe it's legacy considerable?
I really don't think the elder is good enough the more I think about it but the mechanic man, seems really interesting. Raid seems pretty bland right now but well, we only have one cards. Still wanted to check if I'm going crazy =P.
admittedly I can't see why would one play such a card in legacy right now, but well...maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture because I feel enamored by the mechanic? (also I tend to like janky stuff so don't hate me for trying to love bad stuff =P )
edit: maybe jumped the gun a bit on the elder but think about prowess on evasion and 2-3 spells cast. +3/+3 could definitely be playable if the cards are pushed. Still cautiosly optimistic!
Except being blue, Elder is just a bad Young Pyromancer. Has the same total impact over the game (+1 power for spells) but is easier to remove (any card that isn't a -x/-x effect vs. sweepers) and lacks the utility of adding blockers or equipment carriers to the battlefield. On top of this, he's -1 power at any point compared to the pyro. Similarly, what does he do that Goyf or TNN don't do?
He's in a better color but he's an "eggs in one basket" kind of card. I get that there's a trade off of tokens vs. size, but I think Tokens win out; since with Tokens you can block the fatty while swinging for two. TNN blocks this guy all day and straight up loses to YP. Things like prowess also tell you "WASTE YOUR CANTRIPS RIGHT NOW. YES" but that's bad form.
Not sure if you are misreading Jeskai elder but it's not +1/+1 counters. Its basically just a combat trick. Combat tricks don't have much place in legacy.
The raid mechanic could have potential for legacy play.
at least they come with something absolutely obscene and broken (for standard) don't expect to get anything Legacy-speaking. They are gonna go super-careful after Deathrite Shaman.
There was an interesting article in the Wizards page that said how difficult it was for them to print a card made for (or thought to see play in) Legacy without actually <*******> it up.
But dreaming is always allowed, I would love to see some card that is utter garbage in standard-modern but goes absolutely bonkers with an obscure card pre-7th edition
Warning for evading the censor. Censor evasion removed.
- Teia
@mongrel
I realized that later. I like the mechanic better like this since they've been spamming +1/+1 counters ever since Scars; I had just assumed with the spammage it was a counter mechanic. It does take the creature from "Garbage in Legacy" to "Mediocre in casual"
In his article today, Mark Rosewater stated that "Theros is currently the best-selling Magic set of all time."
It's perhaps notable that the statement isn't linked to any discussion of why this might be, though, which makes me suspect that it's true because of efforts to grow the player base rather than anything connected to Theros being an especially exciting or appealing set.
This.
I also feel like that sooner or later, poor design and uninteresting, underpowered cards catch up with newer players. I don't know how many people started playing by buying Portal cards, but I can assure you the people I met who did were ready like a week after playing with them to move on to something else. While I wouldn't say that we've reached that level of "simplicity" in our "expert" sets yet, it sure feels like we're headed in that direction.
I'm a long time player, a fan and source of income for WotC as a buyer of Magic products. If Khans of Tarkir continues the underpowered trend of spells in general that we've seen for the last 5 major sets, I'm not going to be spending my money. I might buy a few singles (like I did for the handful of useful cards to come out of Theros block), but that isn't what Wizards is shooting for, at least I would like to think that's not what they want.
They were saying the last five block sets. Return to Ravnica was good for Legacy. Gatecrash, Dragon's Maze, Theros, Born of the Gods, and Journey into Nyx were not as good.
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I can't see any of the spoiled mechanics being any good for Legacy at all. More creature-centric sets and abilities? Really?
For me, this would be 6 sets in a row that have offered me next to nothing for the kind of Magic that I play. Theros block is horrid overall and the last two sets from RTR block were awful too. The only set with anything in it for Legacy was RTR itself.
Ugh, I can't remember ever being this unexcited for new Magic cards for this long.
My Kamigawa cube.
My Mirage Cube
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
The supplemental stuff has been ok, I mean Conspiracy was pretty cool and contained some nice reprints for Legacy. TNN has obviously shook up Legacy a bit, but I'm talking about the big expansions here, the bread and butter of Magic.
My Kamigawa cube.
My Mirage Cube
I agree. I'd love to get something along the scope of Innistrad or RtR again. We had some very nice development from those two.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Oops all spells being a deck
and probably a bit more.
I think this is more than "nothing" for legacy in the last 6 sets.
We've also only seen 3 cards in Khans.
That has to be some sort of record, even for here.
I'd hardly call that nothing for legacy.
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Legacy is not an easy format to design cards for in Standard sets. Cards that affect Legacy are either really narrow in applications to Standard (Mental Misstep, DRS, and Swan Song) or so powerful they warp Standard (like Delver, Snapcaster, and Jace tMS). Not every cards can be Abrupt Decay or Eidolon of the Great Revel where it is an all star across multiple formats and not format warping.
Non-Standard sets have been good for Legacy, like Conspiracy reprinting some good staples of the format.
Sadly, I think you're correct.
My Kamigawa cube.
My Mirage Cube
Of those cards I feel like Eidolon of the Great Revel and Spirit of the Labyrinth are the ones that had/have the most potential to do something in Legacy. The rest are alright, but nothing like the cards from RTR, or Liliana of the Veil, Snapcaster Mage, Delver of Secrets or Terminus. They just don't equate.
I bought fat packs and boosters of all of those sets, played in drafts to get those cards and I haven't done so for the last 5 big releases (Gatecrash,Dragon's Maze and all of Theros block). Khans looks to be shaping up to be another dud (I know it's early, but usually they spoil stuff to get players excited).
My Kamigawa cube.
My Mirage Cube
Most of those are fringe playable except for the Sage, even Dark Stage Combo isn't that popular. Compare that to RtR, with Decay, and DRS and it's not even close. INN block had Miracles and Delver. Scars had Batterskull, MM, Swords, Tezz, etc. Zen, Alara, Lor, and TS, etc are all huge game changers. From GTC through JOU the sets have not just been weak for Legacy but just weak in general, probably why sales have contracted.
So, no, sales have not contracted.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mm/state-design-2014
I didn't find this statement in this article, but I'll believe you that it's in there.
What I did read was what looked like a massive apology for the failure of the Theros block to deliver on multiple levels of design.
Seems to mesh with my feeling that the block was very lackluster in general. Underpowered, and a missed opportunity with a great theme (Greek Mythology). This thread is not a "bash Theros" thread however, I just hope that they learned a lesson with Theros block going forward with Khans of Takir. So far, the spoilers have not made me feel that they have.
My Kamigawa cube.
My Mirage Cube
We have seen like 3 cards. Any conclusions you are jumping to are very premature. Also, contrary to popular belief, WoTC DOES actually consider legacy in design... At least in supplementary sets. Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, TNN, Council's Judgment are just a few of the cards made with legacy in mind and all had some major impacts.
We also still have gotten the usual 3-5 playable new/reprinted cards in each set, even in Theroes block's sets. I think a lot of people got spoiled by return to ravinca and Innistrad. They were very rare exceptions for legacy playables.
Consider this fact: For the past few years, and probably for the foreseeable future, legacy is getting getting more impactful cards than modern is. I don't really think we have much to complain about. Legacy has been evolving at a good pace. Just look back, 2 years ago Canadian Threshold, Esper Stoneblade and Maverick were the top decks for about a whole year, since then many new archetypes have been created, reinvented, or died out. Just to name a few: Shardless BUG, UWR delver, UB Tezzeret, Jund, Deathblade became things. Imperial painter, D&T, Show and Tell, Counterbalance all became powerful decks. Goblins, Standstill, Stiflenaught went from solid decks, to near obsoletion.
I really don't think the elder is good enough the more I think about it but the mechanic man, seems really interesting. Raid seems pretty bland right now but well, we only have one cards. Still wanted to check if I'm going crazy =P.
admittedly I can't see why would one play such a card in legacy right now, but well...maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture because I feel enamored by the mechanic? (also I tend to like janky stuff so don't hate me for trying to love bad stuff =P )
edit: maybe jumped the gun a bit on the elder but think about prowess on evasion and 2-3 spells cast. +3/+3 could definitely be playable if the cards are pushed. Still cautiosly optimistic!
Legacy:RUG Temur Delver
Modern: ??? undecided.
He's in a better color but he's an "eggs in one basket" kind of card. I get that there's a trade off of tokens vs. size, but I think Tokens win out; since with Tokens you can block the fatty while swinging for two. TNN blocks this guy all day and straight up loses to YP. Things like prowess also tell you "WASTE YOUR CANTRIPS RIGHT NOW. YES" but that's bad form.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
The raid mechanic could have potential for legacy play.
There was an interesting article in the Wizards page that said how difficult it was for them to print a card made for (or thought to see play in) Legacy without actually <*******> it up.
But dreaming is always allowed, I would love to see some card that is utter garbage in standard-modern but goes absolutely bonkers with an obscure card pre-7th edition
Warning for evading the censor. Censor evasion removed.
- Teia
I realized that later. I like the mechanic better like this since they've been spamming +1/+1 counters ever since Scars; I had just assumed with the spammage it was a counter mechanic. It does take the creature from "Garbage in Legacy" to "Mediocre in casual"
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
This.
I also feel like that sooner or later, poor design and uninteresting, underpowered cards catch up with newer players. I don't know how many people started playing by buying Portal cards, but I can assure you the people I met who did were ready like a week after playing with them to move on to something else. While I wouldn't say that we've reached that level of "simplicity" in our "expert" sets yet, it sure feels like we're headed in that direction.
I'm a long time player, a fan and source of income for WotC as a buyer of Magic products. If Khans of Tarkir continues the underpowered trend of spells in general that we've seen for the last 5 major sets, I'm not going to be spending my money. I might buy a few singles (like I did for the handful of useful cards to come out of Theros block), but that isn't what Wizards is shooting for, at least I would like to think that's not what they want.
My Kamigawa cube.
My Mirage Cube
Just Theros, sales were down for the other sets as presented in the Hasbro meeting. Something that hasn't happened in quite awhile.