Feel free to discuss anything about M15 as it pertains to Legacy. I'm not sure if there's really enough in a core set beyond a few specific cards to warrant a sticky, but if there's need for one I can pin a thread to the top of the forum for M15 discussion like the Conspiracy thread.
Can someone explain why people are picking up Ulcerate for Legacy? Even SCG has mentioned it a few times in premium articles. I don't get it. Just play Disfigure, other than a small minority of Tarmogoyfs, there are no X/3s in Legacy.
but what im really excited about is waste not i think this has some major potential for deck building, zombies, pox, etc. this has some amazing synergies with itself and other black cards.
also Nissa, Worldwaker seems like an amazing planeswalker. this seems like a great card to use with elves that run the craterhoof behemoth build
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
they even reprinted haunted plate mail, so this looks to me like they are trying to give pox some love.
for a while now ive been getting good results with b/g but the deck needs some help a strong planeswalker might be what it needs, Garruk, Apex Predator definitely gives the right kind of utility
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"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it." --Volrath BGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGB
Might Resolute Archangel be a Reanimator target? Even if it gets booted, it gets you right back up to 20 life. It would be absurd if it could be viably reanimated at instant speed. Shame that Children of Korlis still does its job better in Tin Fins...
I've found that Goblin Rabblemaster is surprisingly good in Modern--it's a 3-turn clock on its own that demands removal immediately (or a 2+/2+ blocker beforehand). Can it compete with V. Clique or True-Name Nemesis in tempo builds? (At least it's not horridly Zealous Persecution-weak...)
How good is Soul of New Phyrexia in Forgemaster MUD or 12-Post? Protecting your lands and hate rocks from removal is pretty sweet, but needing 5 mana every time isn't so hot...
Can someone explain why people are picking up Ulcerate for Legacy? Even SCG has mentioned it a few times in premium articles. I don't get it. Just play Disfigure, other than a small minority of Tarmogoyfs, there are no X/3s in Legacy.
Can someone explain why people are picking up Ulcerate for Legacy? Even SCG has mentioned it a few times in premium articles. I don't get it. Just play Disfigure, other than a small minority of Tarmogoyfs, there are no X/3s in Legacy.
Or play Dismember.
This. Killing off medium sized Goyfs is awesome. Plus it's "colorless"
Also to the new Elf Shaman, Viridian Shaman is already a card that Elves plays, so a Viridian Shaman that can hit Moat, Counterbalance, EPlague, or whatever other annoying enchantment that is holding you back is worth the 1 toughness loss.
I want this to be a thing:
Polymorphist's Jest + Engineered Plague @ Frog
Also works with Turn to Frog, although only on Goyfs and not crazy stuff like TNN and Emrakul.
EDIT: though I guess that's much worse than an Esper deck just playing Humility + Night of Souls' Betrayal. But EPlague @ Frog!!
The only interesting card in the set is waste not, but even that is probably just a curiosity/not that good. Reclamation sage is the best card in the set for legacy and that isn't saying much.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I feel like Waste Not has gotten too much hype in general. It would be a horrible late game because it does nothing once they are top decking. And what is the situation where you would want to cast this early instead of Hymn to Tourach, Liliana of the Veil or at least some other sort of disruption?
Pox is too busy trying to hamstring their opponents to waste a turn on Waste Not.
*Pox player plays Waste Not instead interacting with oppponent*
*Opponent untaps, wins game*
Waste Not is only really good against durdly opponents where a turn 2 enchantment is good, and even then you'd be better off dropping Sylvan Library or Chains of Mephistopheles.
The other thing on Waste Not for people to remember is that Liliana is ubiquitous in Legacy; T2 Waste Not screws up opposing Lilis, LEDs, and Careful Study effects. Fact is; Waste Not is Self-Discard hate as much as it is a discard-supporter. The ability to let Dredge give you 6+ zombies over a game is powerful and the ability for an LED to net you FoW/Daze could be relevant in UB/x decks. It combos like a madman with Raven's Crime and Life from the Loam as well.
I feel like it's a real card and will likely find it's way into a Lands shell or some such. Keep in mind, you can always DRS->Waste Not->Inquisition. 1-mana 2-for-1s are powerful. Waste Not is decent against Miracles as well; which is a big plus.
Hymn, to be frank, does not work too well with Waste Not as it is too slow to play in conjunction with the enchantment against most other decks.
i dont get this argument, how can you say hymn is too slow? do you not realize that waste not provides card draw and mana acceleration it also stacks with itself. best case scenario you cast hymn with 4 waste not. to simplify the scenario they discarded 2 lands thats 2*2*4= 16*B. this gives pox so much more gas in the turn 2 + scenarios. even at 1 discarded land this gives pox so much potential to chain cast
It's not a matter of how powerful the cards' effects are, it's a question of how it actually plays out in a game. With Hymn in particular, as opposed to other "targeted" discard like Thoughtseize, I think Waste Not competes for your turn two play. Unless you're ramping it out with Dark Ritual, you're pushing Hymn back at least a turn to play Waste Not on turn two. You don't want to push Hymn back to turn three; it may not seem like a big difference, but it does get significantly worse when played later. The extra value you may gain from playing Waste Not first probably won't make up for losing the chance to hit more important cards with Hymn.
It's not a matter of how powerful the cards' effects are, it's a question of how it actually plays out in a game. With Hymn in particular, as opposed to other "targeted" discard like Thoughtseize, I think Waste Not competes for your turn two play. Unless you're ramping it out with Dark Ritual, you're pushing Hymn back at least a turn to play Waste Not on turn two. You don't want to push Hymn back to turn three; it may not seem like a big difference, but it does get significantly worse when played later. The extra value you may gain from playing Waste Not first probably won't make up for losing the chance to hit more important cards with Hymn.
from my understanding the optimal t2 play is not hymn its smallpox, the whole idea behind pox is to cripple their mana base, then cripple their hand, then eek out damage. in that order. once you have more mana then them you start pressing your advantage. dropping down a waste not somewhere in between the point where your discarding them after removing their mana and trying to damage them is where pox has issues and where i see waste not as a answer design wise. its a tempo card for pox to keep going. you have 3 mana great drop a waste not and play a 1 cmc discard. now you have another card in your hand or another creature. then your set up for pressure and more discard on the next turn instead of choosing to do one of the other.
waste not doesnt seem like it wants to be dropped early it wants to be dropped when the game plateaus then its meant to be chained into more spells. if you discard a land you can play another waste not for free and you can stack this advantage every time you force a discard.
Casting more than one waste not and then a discard spell costs tremendous amounts of mana, before you're getting anything of value out of the waste not.
it costs 3 mana and you get immediate value, this isnt alot even in traditional pox this is still early in the game.
This means that you're foregoing casting your discard for a couple of turns, assuming you even have your mana acceleration. At that point, most decks in this format will have cast their key spells already. And the ones that haven't, will have sufficient countermagic to counter your discard spells.
i assume your referring to delver/mystic/goyf as those are the only cards besides storm that are pretty much win cons none of those are out right wins and "faster" then pox
I don't think you appreciate just how terrible playing discard after playing the engine plays out in practice. You need early discard to slow the opponent, to stop combo's, to force through your power spells like Liliana, Smallpox and Hymn. Any turn you delay this carries a huge risk of losing the game.
i see you have play tested this, clearly you speak from experience, your also not grasping the concept of waste not lets you CHAIN INTO other spells. discard a land results into a free small pox, free hymn, free waste not, free sink hole. play the first two more advantage same turn. you play this card right and its impact is far more proportional then traditional pox play, at pretty much the same timings.
Also, what are you going to ramp out with 16 mana after you already spent 10?
your missing the point, im demonstrating how much ramp this card is capabale of. pox only runs off of 1-3 mana, imagine if you chain cast just once. lets say i t2 waste not, pass to t3 i cast cabal therapy naming sword of feast and famine, lets say it hits i now have 2 of 3 possible mana and a extra card draw. i can now smallpox or hymn since counter spelling cabal is rather pointless and i have info on whether he has threats if i hit a land with hymn i get to cast another BB spell rather then just plop a lily down or cast a hymn and be done ive chained 3 times as many spells on my third turn.
tempo isnt measured in how traditional version of a deck type work, its how the entire deck works. dont compare the waste not version to traditional pox, you build it differently. for example a pox with waste not wants to main board alot more sinkhole, alot more discard, and a larger aggro engine. it also has a huge incentive to run big pox. since dropping that can pretty much result in a out right win with chain casting
The problem with casting discard late is that opponents will make their early plays ASAP before you cast more discard. You want to discard cards from combo's hand ASAP--Belcher is built to storm out on Turn 1, Oops All Spells tries to win on Turn 1, and even ANT is capable of winning on Turn 2. A nuts draw from the slow combo deck called OmniTell can also win on Turn 1. Imperial Painter can win on Turn 3 given only one of each combo piece (and Turn 2 given also massive mana accel). I've heard that the reason that Pox still plays Dark Ritual is so it can cast as much discard as possible on Turns 1-2 against combo.
Also, opponents may read Waste Not and figure they're not gambling that you have more discard in hand, so they'll refuse to discard lands until they have to. It gets even worse if your opponent has Liliana--they probably already discarded their lands to their own Lili.
And Waste Not is a fairly terrible topdeck, especially if your opponent is Hellbent. Waste Not is pretty high-risk, high-reward--it's great early-game but significantly poorer late-game.
why are we talking about turn 1 decks, like those dont have answers already?
if we are talking about wasting discard spells, early vs late there's a simple answer, run a larger discard package. instead of 6-8 run 10-12 or even more. then you can discard at your leisure, build your deck around pox and waste not, fill it with support cards like more discard, sinkhole and main board extirpate. you dont need to waste slots on dark ritual since waste not has mana acceleration, the rest can be a zombie aggro engine like gravecrawler and mutavault
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besides a few reprints, i think black and green have some stuff that might see play
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
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but what im really excited about is waste not i think this has some major potential for deck building, zombies, pox, etc. this has some amazing synergies with itself and other black cards.
also Nissa, Worldwaker seems like an amazing planeswalker. this seems like a great card to use with elves that run the craterhoof behemoth build
Hushwing Gryff seems like a good card for white stax
Polymorphist's Jest might be a good card for BUG or RUG
Goblin Rabblemaster as a 2nd goblin piledriver seems dope
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
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Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
for a while now ive been getting good results with b/g but the deck needs some help a strong planeswalker might be what it needs, Garruk, Apex Predator definitely gives the right kind of utility
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
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Void Snare is a pretty sweet Burning Wish target in TES and OmniTell.
Might Resolute Archangel be a Reanimator target? Even if it gets booted, it gets you right back up to 20 life. It would be absurd if it could be viably reanimated at instant speed. Shame that Children of Korlis still does its job better in Tin Fins...
I've found that Goblin Rabblemaster is surprisingly good in Modern--it's a 3-turn clock on its own that demands removal immediately (or a 2+/2+ blocker beforehand). Can it compete with V. Clique or True-Name Nemesis in tempo builds? (At least it's not horridly Zealous Persecution-weak...)
How good is Soul of New Phyrexia in Forgemaster MUD or 12-Post? Protecting your lands and hate rocks from removal is pretty sweet, but needing 5 mana every time isn't so hot...
And dies in the process, but I guess Green Sunning into it is more convenient than having to splash black for Abrupt Decay.
Or play Dismember.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I like the flavor. Any deck with black would probably pick Sudden Spoiling first though. Such a great anti-true name card.
This. Killing off medium sized Goyfs is awesome. Plus it's "colorless"
Also to the new Elf Shaman, Viridian Shaman is already a card that Elves plays, so a Viridian Shaman that can hit Moat, Counterbalance, EPlague, or whatever other annoying enchantment that is holding you back is worth the 1 toughness loss.
Polymorphist's Jest + Engineered Plague @ Frog
Also works with Turn to Frog, although only on Goyfs and not crazy stuff like TNN and Emrakul.
EDIT: though I guess that's much worse than an Esper deck just playing Humility + Night of Souls' Betrayal. But EPlague @ Frog!!
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
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Currently Playing:
Retired
Pox is too busy trying to hamstring their opponents to waste a turn on Waste Not.
*Pox player plays Waste Not instead interacting with oppponent*
*Opponent untaps, wins game*
Or you could just Hymn them turn 1 before they can do anything about it? Or cast Chains? Or Liliana?
If the card requires Dark Ritual in hand on turn 1 to be playable, its on some very tenuous ground.
The other thing on Waste Not for people to remember is that Liliana is ubiquitous in Legacy; T2 Waste Not screws up opposing Lilis, LEDs, and Careful Study effects. Fact is; Waste Not is Self-Discard hate as much as it is a discard-supporter. The ability to let Dredge give you 6+ zombies over a game is powerful and the ability for an LED to net you FoW/Daze could be relevant in UB/x decks. It combos like a madman with Raven's Crime and Life from the Loam as well.
I feel like it's a real card and will likely find it's way into a Lands shell or some such. Keep in mind, you can always DRS->Waste Not->Inquisition. 1-mana 2-for-1s are powerful. Waste Not is decent against Miracles as well; which is a big plus.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
i dont get this argument, how can you say hymn is too slow? do you not realize that waste not provides card draw and mana acceleration it also stacks with itself. best case scenario you cast hymn with 4 waste not. to simplify the scenario they discarded 2 lands thats 2*2*4= 16*B. this gives pox so much more gas in the turn 2 + scenarios. even at 1 discarded land this gives pox so much potential to chain cast
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
BGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGB
from my understanding the optimal t2 play is not hymn its smallpox, the whole idea behind pox is to cripple their mana base, then cripple their hand, then eek out damage. in that order. once you have more mana then them you start pressing your advantage. dropping down a waste not somewhere in between the point where your discarding them after removing their mana and trying to damage them is where pox has issues and where i see waste not as a answer design wise. its a tempo card for pox to keep going. you have 3 mana great drop a waste not and play a 1 cmc discard. now you have another card in your hand or another creature. then your set up for pressure and more discard on the next turn instead of choosing to do one of the other.
waste not doesnt seem like it wants to be dropped early it wants to be dropped when the game plateaus then its meant to be chained into more spells. if you discard a land you can play another waste not for free and you can stack this advantage every time you force a discard.
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
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it costs 3 mana and you get immediate value, this isnt alot even in traditional pox this is still early in the game.
i assume your referring to delver/mystic/goyf as those are the only cards besides storm that are pretty much win cons none of those are out right wins and "faster" then pox
i see you have play tested this, clearly you speak from experience, your also not grasping the concept of waste not lets you CHAIN INTO other spells. discard a land results into a free small pox, free hymn, free waste not, free sink hole. play the first two more advantage same turn. you play this card right and its impact is far more proportional then traditional pox play, at pretty much the same timings.
your missing the point, im demonstrating how much ramp this card is capabale of. pox only runs off of 1-3 mana, imagine if you chain cast just once. lets say i t2 waste not, pass to t3 i cast cabal therapy naming sword of feast and famine, lets say it hits i now have 2 of 3 possible mana and a extra card draw. i can now smallpox or hymn since counter spelling cabal is rather pointless and i have info on whether he has threats if i hit a land with hymn i get to cast another BB spell rather then just plop a lily down or cast a hymn and be done ive chained 3 times as many spells on my third turn.
tempo isnt measured in how traditional version of a deck type work, its how the entire deck works. dont compare the waste not version to traditional pox, you build it differently. for example a pox with waste not wants to main board alot more sinkhole, alot more discard, and a larger aggro engine. it also has a huge incentive to run big pox. since dropping that can pretty much result in a out right win with chain casting
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
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Also, opponents may read Waste Not and figure they're not gambling that you have more discard in hand, so they'll refuse to discard lands until they have to. It gets even worse if your opponent has Liliana--they probably already discarded their lands to their own Lili.
And Waste Not is a fairly terrible topdeck, especially if your opponent is Hellbent. Waste Not is pretty high-risk, high-reward--it's great early-game but significantly poorer late-game.
if we are talking about wasting discard spells, early vs late there's a simple answer, run a larger discard package. instead of 6-8 run 10-12 or even more. then you can discard at your leisure, build your deck around pox and waste not, fill it with support cards like more discard, sinkhole and main board extirpate. you dont need to waste slots on dark ritual since waste not has mana acceleration, the rest can be a zombie aggro engine like gravecrawler and mutavault
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
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