In my experience over the passed year I've had this come up about three times. In each I've battled to a draw (like a chess player would.) The first couple times it came up I gladly "took the high road" and in doing so the other guy made it to the money and I didn't. The third time I decided that I earned my draw and that I had outs in my deck; he couldn't kill me in time and it's his fault and this person nearly whined at me to concede a loss. Seeing my history I just said "no" and we both ended up in the money anyway; but I probably wouldn't have if I had eaten the loss.
In my time I've had many games (I'm a grindy control player, what can I say..?) where it goes to time and the match is not only in my favor; but so is the board state. I've never had someone just give a concession because they "would" lose in a few turns and I've never asked for it.
I'm curious what is considered taboo about playing for the draw (if it is) and why anyone would consider it anything but rude to ask for a free win they didn't earn? Chess is one of the most "real" games in terms of balance and has been the comparison point for nearly every competitive game at some point or another; so I bring it here because playing for the draw is what a skilled player will do in a losing board state.
(Someone will likely bring up that in Chess there's a less abstract draw state where as in MTG it's because there's no overtime; but that's a false argument since just surviving 12 turns (or whatever it is) causes an instant draw as well.)
I see nothing wrong with this. When slow play is not an issue, if I player cannot close out a game in time then they do not deserve a win. Even as someone who basically just plays control decks, I see nothing wrong with this. If you know what you are doing you do not draw often; I have gone 1-1-1 once with Miracles in 50+ sanctioned games. That draw was my first round a GP where I was a little timid. I could have easily got my opponent for Slow Play but did now realize I could/should until after.
If I go to time with 8 4/4 Angels, a jace and a counter balance on board with 7 cards in hand. Its a draw, I expect no concession. I should have played fast, or gotten my opponent to do so.
I still will concede to friends/nice people if a draw gets me nothing but a win gets them something, or if it is very obvious that they would win given more time.
But to get back to the heart of the issue: playing for the draw. I see nothing wrong with this. If I win game one, but it takes 30-40 minutes, I see nothing wrong with playing for the draw; siding out wincons for more control elements. A more skilled player would have conceded the first game sooner if they did not think they could finish 1-2 games in the remaining time.
I've never understood why you would give a random stranger a win when they didnt actually win.
I dont even think Im holding a particularly competitive position there, the game played out the way it played out, it was a draw. As long as you arent cheating (i.e. slow-playing) to accomplish that result, then there is nothing wrong with a draw. Thats what happened. Why misreport it?
If I draw in fnm and am already down a few losses ill give them a win if they're ahead of me as I can't win prizes anyway at that point and they still could. But anything more competitive and its every man for himself.
I think it just depends on the situation. For instance, say it's the final round and I have 12 points, and I get paired up against someone with 13. Also assume that this tournament is only paying to the top 8. If there are exactly 8 players with 15 points, I would scoop my opponent in if we go to turns and he/she asks for it. It's highly unlikely that I would T8 in this scenario, whereas my opponent actually has a shot. No sense in both players going home unhappy. But it's always your decision.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I'll ask for a concession if I feel I am well ahead, but if a Player declines it, I'm fine with that as well. Of course I have probably had 3 draws in my lifetime. I play pretty quickly. One was at a GP with Nic Fit vs Maverick, another funnily enough was Nic Fit vs Maverick at an FnM, and my other was with Lands vs like Eva Green. That was only because it was my first tourney playing Lands.
Of course, if R1 takes 40 minutes and you win, I see no reason that it should be looked down upon to play for the 1-0-1 win. Like someone else said, a good player would realize when winning is out of their reach and they need to scoop em up and try to win 2 more games.
If I think opponent could have called judge for slow play, but he didn't, I'll consider conceding. Especially if I think I'd probably lose in absence of the clock.
Not that I intentionally slow play to get to a draw state, but sometimes I probably just think too long, especially if if some new goofy janky deck that I just threw together the night before.
If I'm just playing a grindy deck, and I don't think I thought too long, I take the draw.
I'm glad to see people, at least those answering, tend to agree here. I was thinking I was some kind of odd minority on the subject. In my case I'm on a slower Aggro-loam brew and he was locked out by Ensnaring bridge G2 for about 20 turns while I picked off his massive merfolk army (about 10 dudes.) He could see he didn't have a counter; that I had active lily, DRS, Confidant, EE lock, double KotR and a Maze, and easy ways to bust the Bridge when ready; but he held off (probably assuming he'd TNN to victory after the bridge popped, DC would kill me, or that I'd go to time trying to win.)
That said, if he held me off to time despite being completely unable to win, I doubt he'd have conceded to a draw.
If I'm up a game and there's a decent chance that game 2 will not finish on time, I will still make decisions at the same rate as normal, but I will consider playing a more defensive strategy to ensure I'm less likely to lose in the remaining time.
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Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
@Tormod
It's more like playing a control role in the game to ensure you don't lose, rather than trying to win directly. I.E. you don't have a super fast clock (such as in Pox or you only have DRS) so rather than try and ping someone to death, you just Maze of Ith, remove, and gain life since you know that you have a better chance of not-losing/not-drawing the match if you hold your position. In my case it was basically the above. I didn't see an obvious way to win; but I could stall him out via kill spells, Maze, chumps, and Lilis. His argument was basically "well you would've lost" but mine is "you have to win in a time limit and you couldn't" and "you can't know that."
Again, Ensnaring Bridge is a good example of a card that would cause a situation where neither player can win in a reasonable amount of time if you're controlling your hand size.
I do not advocate slow play; though I do have a hard time calling it on people because I know what it's like to look at three cards off of a Top and be overwhelmed by a complex decision tree. It also sucks when you know it's a game-deciding play (Devestating Dreams for 4 from an opponent the other day) and you don't know who it decides the game for (he had to kill my KotR, but I'd be way ahead on cards in hand and mana.
So its not a "I'm going into this match to draw" but a defensive tactic you audible too.
I'm with LotP on this one, I couldn't do it unless I'm up a game. I still think its nessary to find a way to win. A lot of the time a draw might as well be a loss when it comes to top 8s and tie breakers.
(Devestating Dreams for 4 from an opponent the other day) and you don't know who it decides the game for (he had to kill my KotR, but I'd be way ahead on cards in hand and mana.
gotta have a weird board state for a devastating dreams for 4 to kill a KotR. no lands in your grave and only 2 in play?
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Here are the little self-imposed guidelines I'm working with for the multiplayer decks I've been building:
• Must be cheap. Total price tag < $100, preferably < $50. Ideally ~$30. No one card greater than about ~$6
• Format: Modern (makes getting the cards somewhat easier for the play group, and almost all my cards are Modern-legal)
• Must be relatively interesting in 1:1 games. I don't need to win against Splinter Twin, but I should be able to play duels now and then
• Avoid instant-win combos; they only serve to make me target #1, and then the deck is worse than useless because I get killed first, every time
• Must have a funny name!
So its not a "I'm going into this match to draw" but a defensive tactic you audible too.
I'm with LotP on this one, I couldn't do it unless I'm up a game. I still think its nessary to find a way to win. A lot of the time a draw might as well be a loss when it comes to top 8s and tie breakers.
Yeah, it's not something you decide to do unless/until you're running low on time in the match. If you won a long game one, then just surviving until time runs out is good enough - a record of 1-0-1 counts as a match win.
On the other hand, if it's game three and you don't think you can win, then trying to force a draw is better than taking a loss. I did this one recently; I was playing against Pox in Round One with only a minute or so on the clock. There was no way I could win through his boardstate in time, so I just put out an Ensnaring Bridge and went for at least one point rather than zero.
I play lands. My most common match result against fair decks is 1-0-1. Time management is part of competitive play, and if I've stabilized game one in a fair matchup, I'm entirely in favor of proceeding to ghost-quarter out my opponents lands instead of digging for a punishing fire or a dark depths/stage kill. Why? Because it's not as risky to choke them off of mana as it is to "go for" something, and I'm well-equipped to take the game long. Playing a deck that is equipped for these really long drawn-out preboard matchups just involves another level of skill--time management. Know when to pack it in, Despite playing lands without crop rotations and only 1 stage/1 depths, I almost never draw rounds even against pox and miracles.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
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In my time I've had many games (I'm a grindy control player, what can I say..?) where it goes to time and the match is not only in my favor; but so is the board state. I've never had someone just give a concession because they "would" lose in a few turns and I've never asked for it.
I'm curious what is considered taboo about playing for the draw (if it is) and why anyone would consider it anything but rude to ask for a free win they didn't earn? Chess is one of the most "real" games in terms of balance and has been the comparison point for nearly every competitive game at some point or another; so I bring it here because playing for the draw is what a skilled player will do in a losing board state.
(Someone will likely bring up that in Chess there's a less abstract draw state where as in MTG it's because there's no overtime; but that's a false argument since just surviving 12 turns (or whatever it is) causes an instant draw as well.)
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
If I go to time with 8 4/4 Angels, a jace and a counter balance on board with 7 cards in hand. Its a draw, I expect no concession. I should have played fast, or gotten my opponent to do so.
I still will concede to friends/nice people if a draw gets me nothing but a win gets them something, or if it is very obvious that they would win given more time.
But to get back to the heart of the issue: playing for the draw. I see nothing wrong with this. If I win game one, but it takes 30-40 minutes, I see nothing wrong with playing for the draw; siding out wincons for more control elements. A more skilled player would have conceded the first game sooner if they did not think they could finish 1-2 games in the remaining time.
I dont even think Im holding a particularly competitive position there, the game played out the way it played out, it was a draw. As long as you arent cheating (i.e. slow-playing) to accomplish that result, then there is nothing wrong with a draw. Thats what happened. Why misreport it?
Of course, if R1 takes 40 minutes and you win, I see no reason that it should be looked down upon to play for the 1-0-1 win. Like someone else said, a good player would realize when winning is out of their reach and they need to scoop em up and try to win 2 more games.
Not that I intentionally slow play to get to a draw state, but sometimes I probably just think too long, especially if if some new goofy janky deck that I just threw together the night before.
If I'm just playing a grindy deck, and I don't think I thought too long, I take the draw.
That said, if he held me off to time despite being completely unable to win, I doubt he'd have conceded to a draw.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
How do you do that? slow play the heck out of game 1 until you go to time?
Are you talking about a game 3 scenario and slow playing that to time?
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingIt's more like playing a control role in the game to ensure you don't lose, rather than trying to win directly. I.E. you don't have a super fast clock (such as in Pox or you only have DRS) so rather than try and ping someone to death, you just Maze of Ith, remove, and gain life since you know that you have a better chance of not-losing/not-drawing the match if you hold your position. In my case it was basically the above. I didn't see an obvious way to win; but I could stall him out via kill spells, Maze, chumps, and Lilis. His argument was basically "well you would've lost" but mine is "you have to win in a time limit and you couldn't" and "you can't know that."
Again, Ensnaring Bridge is a good example of a card that would cause a situation where neither player can win in a reasonable amount of time if you're controlling your hand size.
I do not advocate slow play; though I do have a hard time calling it on people because I know what it's like to look at three cards off of a Top and be overwhelmed by a complex decision tree. It also sucks when you know it's a game-deciding play (Devestating Dreams for 4 from an opponent the other day) and you don't know who it decides the game for (he had to kill my KotR, but I'd be way ahead on cards in hand and mana.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
I'm with LotP on this one, I couldn't do it unless I'm up a game. I still think its nessary to find a way to win. A lot of the time a draw might as well be a loss when it comes to top 8s and tie breakers.
gotta have a weird board state for a devastating dreams for 4 to kill a KotR. no lands in your grave and only 2 in play?
• Must be cheap. Total price tag < $100, preferably < $50. Ideally ~$30. No one card greater than about ~$6
• Format: Modern (makes getting the cards somewhat easier for the play group, and almost all my cards are Modern-legal)
• Must be relatively interesting in 1:1 games. I don't need to win against Splinter Twin, but I should be able to play duels now and then
• Avoid instant-win combos; they only serve to make me target #1, and then the deck is worse than useless because I get killed first, every time
• Must have a funny name!
Yeah, it's not something you decide to do unless/until you're running low on time in the match. If you won a long game one, then just surviving until time runs out is good enough - a record of 1-0-1 counts as a match win.
On the other hand, if it's game three and you don't think you can win, then trying to force a draw is better than taking a loss. I did this one recently; I was playing against Pox in Round One with only a minute or so on the clock. There was no way I could win through his boardstate in time, so I just put out an Ensnaring Bridge and went for at least one point rather than zero.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm