We all have that card. That card that SEEMS like it should be fringe playable or even just playable. For reasons we cannot grasp, it isn't used in competitive decks. I'd like to use this thread to discuss those cards. As a community, we can figure out why that card should see more play/why it doesn't see play. Perhaps someone can suggest a better shell to make the card playable, or maybe they can just explain why the card is a waste of time.
I'll start it off with Suppression Field. Seriously, why isn't this ever played? It messes with fetches, it messes with Wasteland, and this isn't even including the gigantic list of nonland cards ranging from Deathrite Shaman to Stoneforge Mystic AND equipment to Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial, and even Planeswalker activations. Is it that two mana is too much? Is it that it is too hard to make a competitive deck WITHOUT activated abilities? Someone tell me because I would really like to know.
I think it doesn't see more play because it is much, much better on Turn 1. To run it, you really would prefer to have no activated abilities, yourself, be able to play it Turn 1, and be able take advantage of the time it buys.
I think there are a lot of cheap cards which move lots of cards between multiple zones that see insufficient play. Burning Inquiry, Ghoulcaller's Chant, Visions of Beyond, and even humble Tome Scour are all powerful effects for a tiny cost, basically just waiting for the right shell or the right interactions.
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If more people knew how Sapphire Charm interacted with Batterskull, it would probably see more play.
For anyone who doesn't know - a creature phasing out takes all equipment with it, but since a token is unable to phase back in the equipment can never come back either. It's even better than exiled.
Suppression Field is definitely powerful. I think the biggest issue with that card is that basically every white deck wants to be a Stoneforge Mystic deck. But on the other hand, turning off activated abilities doesn't really cripple too many game plans. If you're lucky to catch them with a hand full of fetches and Deathrites then it will be awesome, but if they just drop a Delver and Tarmogoyf then it did nothing.
This one isn't really a "should see play" as much as something I want to try out to see how it does - Phyrexian Crusader. UWR Delver is a serious thing right now, and the whole 75 doesn't have a way to deal with Crusader short of holding back TNN to block.
Suppression Field is awesome in decks that have very few activations to deal with. I main deck a pair in Enchantress, once had someone paying 4 to Brainstorm with Jace. I would like to see Scroll Rack see more use. With all the shuffle effects available, the ability to dig that card gives you is pretty sweet.
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I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
702.25f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that
permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing
out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in
by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s attached to.
There are at least two ways to interpret this:
1) The aura/equipment/fortification only phases in if the attached permanent is there to phase in with it
2) The aura/equipment/fortification phases in attached to the same permanent if possible, and unattached otherwise.
The reason I think the second interpretation is viable is the following:
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
702.25a Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the untap step. During each player’s
untap step, before the active player untaps his or her permanents, all phased-in permanents with
phasing that player controls “phase out.” Simultaneously, all phased-out permanents that had
phased out under that player’s control “phase in.”
So when you phase out a Batterskull token, the Batterskull clearly gets phased out. The token disappears. The Batterskull is considered to have been phased out "indirectly". Now you have a choice... you can violate 702.25a "all phased-out permanents that had phased out under that players control 'phase in.'" Alternately, you can violate 702.25f that the Batterskull phases in "along with the permanent it's attached to."
Note that under either rule your Batterskull still phases back in (or tries to do so). If you simply apply both rules as normal replacement effects, your Batterskull still phases back in. Only by selectively reading 702.25f to apply only the restriction that it "won't phase in by itself" can you argue that the Batterskull stays "phased out". The "won't phase in by itself" is only part of the rule, though. It has a replacement effect for phasing in "by itself" - instead it (still) phases in, but "along with" the permanent to which it is attached.
Are there any high-level judges on MTGS who could shed light on this?
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AJ - It is my understanding from multiple previous threads that your understanding of Indirect Phasing is incorrect.
If you phase out a creature with attachments on it, those attachments phase out indirectly. They will not phase back in except for when the object they were attached to phases back in.
If you phase out a creature token, it ceases to exist as soon as state-based effects are checked.
So you now have an attachment that is phased indirectly, associated to an object that no longer exists. Since its dependent object never phases in, it never phases in. 702.25a only applies to objects that have phased directly.
But probably the biggest reason why Saph charm does not see that much play is that this is an extremely narrow circumstance.
Sure, it can super-exile a Batterskull, but only if you can hit it while attached to a token and only if they can't bounce it to hand in response. Its other modes are a slowtrip and a Jump, neither of which is breaking anything.
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You should take your argument to the rules thread and bring the answer here? Sapphire Charm still shouldn't see play. It's a slowtrip OR it's an extremely narrow answer. I guess Merfolk could.. but shouldn't they just be attacking with three 4/4s?
I've tried to make Plague Spitter work and will probably try again someday. I liked pinging off Lilis with it and eating boards of expensive creatures (or even trading with Goyf/Skull!); but alas; it's more of a budget "gotcha!" for expensive cards than it is competitive. I did get some 3-for-1s off of it several times; even a couple 5-for-1s though. And trading with Goyf/Skull on the attack was exciting to me at the time.
You should take your argument to the rules thread and bring the answer here? Sapphire Charm still shouldn't see play. It's a slowtrip OR it's an extremely narrow answer. I guess Merfolk could.. but shouldn't they just be attacking with three 4/4s?
I've tried to make Plague Spitter work and will probably try again someday. I liked pinging off Lilis with it and eating boards of expensive creatures (or even trading with Goyf/Skull!); but alas; it's more of a budget "gotcha!" for expensive cards than it is competitive. I did get some 3-for-1s off of it several times; even a couple 5-for-1s though. And trading with Goyf/Skull on the attack was exciting to me at the time.
I agree, super narrow.
There seems to be a consensus that it does work as advertised, but I suspect this is more due to additional rules that used to exist (but don't anymore) rather than the current rules producing an unambiguous result.
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There are decks that run suppression field in some way. The main problem is that format is almost based around activated abilities and finding a deck that isn't also hosed by it becomes the issue.
Chalice is seen in many decks and is easily built around. I think it speaks volumes when you can see a deck like the cure that wants to play 1 drops is more then willing to not play them if they land a chalice. So it's not really close to suppression field because of that.
If you phase out the germ token the batterskull will not return to play just in case there were questions on that still.
After running wild through a gp with ashiok in modern it does have me curious as to how it would play out in legacy.
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I too would love to make Ashiok work in Legacy. Problem is Legacy decks don't run THAT many creatures but if you hit even one it becomes pretty sweet. We should collaborate on this WeaponX
My short list of "other cool stuff I want to be good but aren't" includes Lotus Cobra, Zur, the Enchanter, Slivers in general, and Goblin Guide (only Burn runs this and it makes me sad).
"Listen closely as your radio plays
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
My short list of "other cool stuff I want to be good but aren't" includes Lotus Cobra, Zur, the Enchanter, Slivers in general, and Goblin Guide (only Burn runs this and it makes me sad).
I've tried to make Slivers work too. The build I tried ended up being essentially a worse version of Merfolk, but I've been wanting to try building it other ways to see if I can make something of it.
First of all, whether a deck is Tier 1 or not has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Unlike you, I'm not gonna be the one derailing it.
Fair enough.
Second, the concept of Tier is loose to begin with. There's no agree-upon definition. People tend to imagine arbitrary tier in terms of Top 8 performance, but when in fact it's closer toward popularity.
Tezzerator isn't a particularly popular or often-seen deck either from what I have seen.
Oh yeah, Toxic Deluge is awesome if you're hard control. I think it might actually be seeing more play in Vintage than Legacy right now (as Black has a lot of good restricted cards for Blue-based control decks, as well as Dark Confidant)
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Hidden Herd: I can't help but think of it as a green Delver of Secrets
Stifle: It's so often a blowout in RUG, and using it in other Delver decks could be great with the element of surprise.
Misdirection: Making people Thoughtseize themselves never gets old, and it (if you have a pitch card) can double as a Force of Will. Abrupt Decay is another card to use this on.
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Hidden Herd: I can't help but think of it as a green Delver of Secrets
Stifle: It's so often a blowout in RUG, and using it in other Delver decks could be great with the element of surprise.
Misdirection: Making people Thoughtseize themselves never gets old, and it (if you have a pitch card) can double as a Force of Will. Abrupt Decay is another card to use this on.
Misdirection isn't that good against Thoughtseize. To answer an early Thoughtseize, you would have to cast it by pitching another card. You would be giving up 2 cards for their 2 cards.
Gatekeeper of Malakir seems good against most fair decks, especially those playing TNN. As far as I know I have only seen it in BW Stoneblade lists, usually as a 1 of.
Gatekeeper of Malakir seems good against most fair decks, especially those playing TNN. As far as I know I have only seen it in BW Stoneblade lists, usually as a 1 of.
It's bangin' in The Gate. Good card anyway, and even better as part of the deck's strategy.
I'll start it off with Suppression Field. Seriously, why isn't this ever played? It messes with fetches, it messes with Wasteland, and this isn't even including the gigantic list of nonland cards ranging from Deathrite Shaman to Stoneforge Mystic AND equipment to Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial, and even Planeswalker activations. Is it that two mana is too much? Is it that it is too hard to make a competitive deck WITHOUT activated abilities? Someone tell me because I would really like to know.
In Stax it really only messes with Mox Diamond and Elspeth, and its crippling with the other tax effects going on.
I think it doesn't see more play because it is much, much better on Turn 1. To run it, you really would prefer to have no activated abilities, yourself, be able to play it Turn 1, and be able take advantage of the time it buys.
I think there are a lot of cheap cards which move lots of cards between multiple zones that see insufficient play. Burning Inquiry, Ghoulcaller's Chant, Visions of Beyond, and even humble Tome Scour are all powerful effects for a tiny cost, basically just waiting for the right shell or the right interactions.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
The potential for both cards comes specifically from keeping your opponent from effectively using certain powerful cards.
However both come at the price of not being able to effectively run those same cards yourself.
For anyone who doesn't know - a creature phasing out takes all equipment with it, but since a token is unable to phase back in the equipment can never come back either. It's even better than exiled.
Suppression Field is definitely powerful. I think the biggest issue with that card is that basically every white deck wants to be a Stoneforge Mystic deck. But on the other hand, turning off activated abilities doesn't really cripple too many game plans. If you're lucky to catch them with a hand full of fetches and Deathrites then it will be awesome, but if they just drop a Delver and Tarmogoyf then it did nothing.
This one isn't really a "should see play" as much as something I want to try out to see how it does - Phyrexian Crusader. UWR Delver is a serious thing right now, and the whole 75 doesn't have a way to deal with Crusader short of holding back TNN to block.
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
There are at least two ways to interpret this:
1) The aura/equipment/fortification only phases in if the attached permanent is there to phase in with it
2) The aura/equipment/fortification phases in attached to the same permanent if possible, and unattached otherwise.
The reason I think the second interpretation is viable is the following:
So when you phase out a Batterskull token, the Batterskull clearly gets phased out. The token disappears. The Batterskull is considered to have been phased out "indirectly". Now you have a choice... you can violate 702.25a "all phased-out permanents that had phased out under that players control 'phase in.'" Alternately, you can violate 702.25f that the Batterskull phases in "along with the permanent it's attached to."
Note that under either rule your Batterskull still phases back in (or tries to do so). If you simply apply both rules as normal replacement effects, your Batterskull still phases back in. Only by selectively reading 702.25f to apply only the restriction that it "won't phase in by itself" can you argue that the Batterskull stays "phased out". The "won't phase in by itself" is only part of the rule, though. It has a replacement effect for phasing in "by itself" - instead it (still) phases in, but "along with" the permanent to which it is attached.
Are there any high-level judges on MTGS who could shed light on this?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
If you phase out a creature with attachments on it, those attachments phase out indirectly. They will not phase back in except for when the object they were attached to phases back in.
If you phase out a creature token, it ceases to exist as soon as state-based effects are checked.
So you now have an attachment that is phased indirectly, associated to an object that no longer exists. Since its dependent object never phases in, it never phases in. 702.25a only applies to objects that have phased directly.
But probably the biggest reason why Saph charm does not see that much play is that this is an extremely narrow circumstance.
Sure, it can super-exile a Batterskull, but only if you can hit it while attached to a token and only if they can't bounce it to hand in response. Its other modes are a slowtrip and a Jump, neither of which is breaking anything.
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I've tried to make Plague Spitter work and will probably try again someday. I liked pinging off Lilis with it and eating boards of expensive creatures (or even trading with Goyf/Skull!); but alas; it's more of a budget "gotcha!" for expensive cards than it is competitive. I did get some 3-for-1s off of it several times; even a couple 5-for-1s though. And trading with Goyf/Skull on the attack was exciting to me at the time.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
I agree, super narrow.
There seems to be a consensus that it does work as advertised, but I suspect this is more due to additional rules that used to exist (but don't anymore) rather than the current rules producing an unambiguous result.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Since when is UB Tezzeret Tier 1?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Chalice is seen in many decks and is easily built around. I think it speaks volumes when you can see a deck like the cure that wants to play 1 drops is more then willing to not play them if they land a chalice. So it's not really close to suppression field because of that.
If you phase out the germ token the batterskull will not return to play just in case there were questions on that still.
After running wild through a gp with ashiok in modern it does have me curious as to how it would play out in legacy.
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My short list of "other cool stuff I want to be good but aren't" includes Lotus Cobra, Zur, the Enchanter, Slivers in general, and Goblin Guide (only Burn runs this and it makes me sad).
The one card to recently leave this list is Young Pyromancer
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
I want standstill to see more play. I've been trying to make landstill a much more competitive deck.
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I've tried to make Slivers work too. The build I tried ended up being essentially a worse version of Merfolk, but I've been wanting to try building it other ways to see if I can make something of it.
Fair enough.
Tezzerator isn't a particularly popular or often-seen deck either from what I have seen.
Getting 11th place at a SCG open doesn't mean much. Opens happen every week. Getting into the top 16 at a single Open does not make a deck tier 1.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
From what I've seen (I could be wrong as I play Modern, not Legacy), Engineered Explosives is much better than Ratchet Bomb.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Stifle: It's so often a blowout in RUG, and using it in other Delver decks could be great with the element of surprise.
Misdirection: Making people Thoughtseize themselves never gets old, and it (if you have a pitch card) can double as a Force of Will. Abrupt Decay is another card to use this on.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Misdirection isn't that good against Thoughtseize. To answer an early Thoughtseize, you would have to cast it by pitching another card. You would be giving up 2 cards for their 2 cards.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It's bangin' in The Gate. Good card anyway, and even better as part of the deck's strategy.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams