And I was saying that you two are arguing about apples and oranges, so it's a fruitless argument. Furthermore, you went on about playability being hurt but collectibility of alpha and beta cards not being hurt. A print run the size of Modern Masters will not hurt either.
Hammerhiem didn't say that a Modern Masters-like limited print run wouldn't lower prices (a very valid argument to make), followed by an unrelated response by me that a large print run would lower prices. He/she said that anyone expecting reprints to lower prices is delusional, and offered the example of MM as proof that reprints don't lower prices. Talking about reprints like Thoughtseize is in no way a fruitless way to show that reprints can, of course, lower prices.
When did I say that playability would be hurt by reprints? To be honest, I don't even know what that means. I said that if the original printing of a card's value drops after a large reprint, it shows that its inflated value was because of playability, not merely collectibility. Cards truly coveted by collectors are relatively impervious to reprints, especially if the new cards are noticeably different.
No, it's not. First off, it was never WotC's goal to lower prices with Modern Masters, and anyone who thinks a Legacy Masters can do that needs to realize that it won't lower prices one bit. What it will do, however, is give people more of an opportunity to access these staples, and in the end that's a good thing.
Yes, it is, when talking about the opinion of players who want the Reserved List gone. Putting a small amount of cards into the supply, but keeping prices at the same unattainable levels, does nothing to increase accessibility. 100,000 of a card at $100 each and 110,000 of a card at $100 each presents the same long-term problems, apart from achieving the short-term goal of possibly having slightly more players in the format.
Talking about a full-blown reprint on the scale of Chronicles and comparing that to a limited run reprint of Modern Masters is completely fruitless and is apples and oranges. If you can't understand that, I'm not going to continue arguing with you because it will simply be a waste of my time.
Here's where you talked about playability and price - I should have worded it better, but I think you should have gotten what I meant. I'm sick right now, so sue me.
A reprint doesn't hurt the value of the previous printings if the card is valuable because of collectibility, not just playability. Revised Underground Seas would plummet with a large reprint; Betas would not. No one was framing shock lands so the price dropped. It's quite simple to please both players and collectors. Print the new ones with an ugly white border or whatever.
Yes, it is, when talking about the opinion of players who want the Reserved List gone. Putting a small amount of cards into the supply, but keeping prices at the same unattainable levels, does nothing to increase accessibility. 100,000 of a card at $100 each and 110,000 of a card at $100 each presents the same long-term problems, apart from achieving the short-term goal of possibly having slightly more players in the format.
Well, sorry but that's what Legacy Masters will achieve. What you people want is another Chronicles. That. Simply. Will. Not. Happen. Collectors with enough weight to throw around would cause trouble for WotC (as mass-printing would be injuring the value of their collection, which they built up trusting in the word of WotC on the Reserved List). That wouldn't be the worst of it - dealers absolutely would rebel against WotC over this. The nice part about putting out Legacy Masters is that you can ammend the rules around the Reserved List without injuring collectors and you would be able to get dealers on board with it. Lowering prices, though? Forget it - keep dreaming. This is the same conversation that was had over a decade ago when Vintage was in Legacy's current place and too many people were complaining about the barrier to entry. Honestly, my response is either 1) go out and earn it with a job like many Legacy players have, 2) win pieces in proxy tournaments, 3) trade up over time, or 4) play in proxy tournaments. This is real life - deal with it.
Honestly, my response is either 1) go out and earn it with a job like many Legacy players have, 2) win pieces in proxy tournaments, 3) trade up over time, or 4) play in proxy tournaments. This is real life - deal with it.
And this is where I exit the discussion with you. Enjoy.
Some people really seem to fail to understand that the issue here is not brining down prices to make Legacy cheaper-- it's about increasing supply so that the prices don't get much worse in the future. 3k for a deck right now is a lot, yes, but 5-10k for that same deck in 5 years is what we're trying to avoid. There comes a point where this entire economy falls apart because it's based around an unsustainable format if current trends continue.
Legacy will always be expensive, and that is fine. It makes it interesting, the stakes are higher, the prestige associated with it it satisfying. Nobody wants to take that away. We're talking about preserving it so that it can continue to thrive. I just don't get the "I've got mine, tough luck for you" crowd. It'll be you complaining when all you get to do is look at your pretty cards in a few years because you can't actually play with them anywhere anymore.
Eliminating the reserved list has legal implications and as such it will never happen. They could get sued for a lot. It's the same reason they took so long to ban Stoneforge Mystic from Standard and eventually were only able to do it with that condition - they advertised a product with SFM in it as FNM ready, and if SFM was banned, this is a lie. For the same reason, they can't go back on the reserved list.
People say this, but I've yet to see any kind of legal precedent for this. Especially since they've broken the reserve list without repercussions (see Mox Diamond reprint).
Mox Diamond was because of a loophole that allowed for limited edition premium reprints, originally intended to give them the ability to print Judge foils.
I don't work for WOTC/Hasbro, and obviously the reserve list is not a binding contract in the literal sense, but I think it's more of a cost/benefit approach. They seem to think the negatives, which does include a possible class-action from store owners, outweigh the positives.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Vintage is one thing, it makes sense for it to be out of reach for most people. It isn't a particularly thrilling format, and mostly is there for old-school nostalgia.
Hey, what did Vintage ever do to you? It is actually a very fun format with some of the nicest players you can find. The general attitude is: "I have an $8000+ deck here and I just love taking it for a spin, win or lose."
Some people really seem to fail to understand that the issue here is not brining down prices to make Legacy cheaper-- it's about increasing supply so that the prices don't get much worse in the future. 3k for a deck right now is a lot, yes, but 5-10k for that same deck in 5 years is what we're trying to avoid. There comes a point where this entire economy falls apart because it's based around an unsustainable format if current trends continue.
Legacy will always be expensive, and that is fine. It makes it interesting, the stakes are higher, the prestige associated with it it satisfying. Nobody wants to take that away. We're talking about preserving it so that it can continue to thrive. I just don't get the "I've got mine, tough luck for you" crowd. It'll be you complaining when all you get to do is look at your pretty cards in a few years because you can't actually play with them anywhere anymore.
I think it is actually more of "I had to work hard to get mine, I encourage you to do the same and look forward to seeing you at the next tournament." It isn't so much "nya nya, I have things and you don't" but "I feel where you are coming from, it sucks to spend so much money but it is worth it and probably isn't going to get better so get in as soon as you can." Overall, however, I really agree with what you are saying here. It would be best if Legacy prices kept up with inflation, not the rapidly ballooning trend they are on now.
And once again, please stop all the hate for "collectors" (not from the dude I am quoting necessarily, but in general when the RL comes up). Most of us with large collections are players first and would prefer to have more people to play with than an increase in the value of our cards.
If WOTC's goal with MM was not to lower prices, they would never have printed it. There are literally zero other reasons to release such a set. "Lowering prices" doesn't need to mean completely killing the value of the cards.
Giving more people access to the card, and hyping up a format aren't valid reasons?
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Really? You think it would put vendors out of business like SCG? That just shows you have no clue what you're talking about. SCG is FOR abolishing the list. SCG and other vendors make tons more off of standard cards in comparison to legacy because legacy cards are hard to move at $250 a pop for an underground sea for example. Meanwhile standard is the most popular format and moving cards there is easy as people need them for PTQ's and other big standard tournaments that happen every weekend.
As for legal implications, they do not exist. Not to mention the money WotC raked in over reprinting duals and such would far outweigh any legal expenses with ease as people would flock to a legacy masters set like bees to honey.
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Really? You think it would put vendors out of business like SCG? That just shows you have no clue what you're talking about. SCG is FOR abolishing the list. SCG and other vendors make tons more off of standard cards in comparison to legacy because legacy cards are hard to move at $250 a pop for an underground sea for example. Meanwhile standard is the most popular format and moving cards there is easy as people need them for PTQ's and other big standard tournaments that happen every weekend.
To expand on this. Out of print cards can only be sold at a rate equal to what they can be obtained at. If SCG buys an average of 1 Underground Sea per day, they can only sell 1 Undergrond Sea per day. If a new in print item comes out SCG can buy as many of that product as they want, open it up, and sell the new Seas letting them sell say 5 per day. Once that goes out of print and there's way more supply out there, way more people will be selling them, and they can obtain and sell 2-3 per day.
SCG, CFB, and any other store out there that buys collections stands to make a huge profit on the Reserve List disappearing, even if their existing stock devalues a little bit in the short term.
Do I really need to explain supply and demand? If you print more copies of a card, you're going to lower the price. Unless you'd like to suggest that Modern Masters, alone, increased interest in Modern and thus the demand for Modern staples to a greater degree than the increased supply, then MM has to lower prices. No other outcome is possible.
Eliminating the reserved list has legal implications and as such it will never happen. They could get sued for a lot. It's the same reason they took so long to ban Stoneforge Mystic from Standard and eventually were only able to do it with that condition - they advertised a product with SFM in it as FNM ready, and if SFM was banned, this is a lie. For the same reason, they can't go back on the reserved list.
People say this, but I've yet to see any kind of legal precedent for this. Especially since they've broken the reserve list without repercussions (see Mox Diamond reprint).
Legal precedent? You mean breach of contract? Wizards made a contract with the playerbase: they would not reprint certain cards and, in exchange, received investment from a group of players. Breaching this contract would open up for lawsuit. It would be a mess and cost quite a bit. The reason you didn't see it with a Mox Diamond reprint is because that isn't on a scale large enough for collectors to go to court. Wizards' legal team might be able to find some possible out, but it's going to be a stretch and something they probably don't want to risk. The reserve list is never going to leave. It was a mistake, and is a mistake that Wizards has to deal with.
that the sales of a Legacy Masters set would absolutely DWARF anything collectors could theoretically win in court(which it would never get to anyway).
There would be an argument for unjust enrichment: that Wizards only profited so much off of legacy masters because of their deceitful promise of the reserve list. If this is found true, say goodbye to that profit.
obviously the reserve list is not a binding contract in the literal sense
And what makes you think that?
There is no lawyer on earth that can win this kind of case for the collectors if it goes to court.
And why do you say that? Because Wizards would employ more successful lawyers? A big name class action attorney would love to hop on this and receive 40-50%. Wizards made a contract. They can't just go breaking it and expect to get away. They might have some technicality escape, but it's still a risk that could cost quite a lot.
Do I really need to explain supply and demand? If you print more copies of a card, you're going to lower the price. Unless you'd like to suggest that Modern Masters, alone, increased interest in Modern and thus the demand for Modern staples to a greater degree than the increased supply, then MM has to lower prices. No other outcome is possible.
You don't seem to understand supply and demand. If you increase the supply, and the demand increases equally, or more than equally, the price stays the same or goes up. Hyping up a format, or selling packs, raises interest about it, thus increasing demand.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
This is not a binding and legal contract? This is america sir, and in america "you can always sue somebody" - south park.
This whole petition for a reprint is stupid.
A better approach is a petition against a reprint. If zero people sign such a petition then wizards have a green light to reprint duals. Then they have something to fall back on when they do get sued.
Anyone suing a major company better have a hell of a attorney, because Hasboro sure has one. Since they HAVE reprinted certain cards on the list if you had a legal reason to sue them, you could do it right now because they have already gone back on that promise a few times. The legal reason has little to nothing to do with the reason they don't go back on the promise. The major reason they wont go back on it is, they don't want be known as a company that goes back on their promises to the players. Their integrity as a company is more important to them. Almost to a fault IMO. Their promise to players is holding them back from printing what is in the best interest of the game. I am not saying reprint the power 9 and such, but even defenders of the list have to admit, which cards are on the list is pretty arbitrary. The list has failed at what it set out to do and is now a 20 year old relic of a company that has grown and evolved where others have perished.
Anyone suing a major company better have a hell of a attorney, because Hasboro sure has one. Since they HAVE reprinted certain cards on the list if you had a legal reason to sue them, you could do it right now because they have already gone back on that promise a few times. The legal reason has little to nothing to do with the reason they don't go back on the promise. The major reason they wont go back on it is, they don't want be known as a company that goes back on their promises to the players. Their integrity as a company is more important to them. Almost to a fault IMO. Their promise to players is holding them back from printing what is in the best interest of the game. I am not saying reprint the power 9 and such, but even defenders of the list have to admit, which cards are on the list is pretty arbitrary. The list has failed at what it set out to do and is now a 20 year old relic of a company that has grown and evolved where others have perished.
This is exactly the case. I think a lot of people in here have a poor understanding of the legal system based around media perception and not the reality of the situation. There just isn't any evidence for a lawsuit having legal standing. I can think of far more egregious examples of broken promises with customers that occur constantly in other industries without any legal recourse (just look at how much of this happens in the video game industry).
The topic of "X format is way too expensive" is a common issue. Draft is too expensive because you have to spend money on packs and you don't make that money back with the cards you draft. Standard is too expensive because you can drop 100s of dollars on cards and have a deck for a year, then half your deck rotates and the value of those cards go from 20 to 0 pretty fast. Legacy doesn't have the rotation issue, but has a very high barrier of entry. And Modern is kind of a mix of the two in terms of cost issues.
I don't understand why if cost is a factor... Commander seems like the perfect game. There's no rotation to deal with, so you can play your Green Sun Zeniths and Kessig Wolf Runs to your hearts content. It's competitive enough that your tuned Azusa deck should be able to trample over some random guy with a budget dragon deck. The barrier to entry is relatively low. You can get away with not playing the full suite of non-basics and not get completely crushed. At the same time, it's not the worst thing in the world to drop 500 bucks and really pimp out a commander deck. Because presuming that you drop the 30 bucks on Chord of Calling and 40 on some sac lands and another 30 on some Eldrazi creatures... those cards are in your collection forever now and you can use them in any commander deck you want. Once you've purchased a lot of the staples in the 2-3 colors you like playing, all the other cards are usually cheap so switching from one strategy to another might cost 10 dollars total.
The reserved list isn't a legally binding contract. It's a promise. If you could sue people for breaking promises in the US the courts would be quite busy (*cough* politicians *cough*). There's no case. And Hasbro is a multi billion dollar corporation so in other words you better be prepared to burn through millions of dollars in legal fees if you want to try to sue hasbro.
If reprints occurred I'm pretty sure prices would drop on dual lands and such. $250 for new in print underground sea's printed at rare? For that to happen WotC would have to print a very small amount indeed. Although foils would be gigantic in terms of price. So many legacy and vintage players/pimps would want them...
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Anyone suing a major company better have a hell of a attorney, because Hasboro sure has one. Since they HAVE reprinted certain cards on the list if you had a legal reason to sue them, you could do it right now because they have already gone back on that promise a few times. The legal reason has little to nothing to do with the reason they don't go back on the promise. The major reason they wont go back on it is, they don't want be known as a company that goes back on their promises to the players. Their integrity as a company is more important to them. Almost to a fault IMO. Their promise to players is holding them back from printing what is in the best interest of the game. I am not saying reprint the power 9 and such, but even defenders of the list have to admit, which cards are on the list is pretty arbitrary. The list has failed at what it set out to do and is now a 20 year old relic of a company that has grown and evolved where others have perished.
Uhm, when you file a civil suit, you do so to receive compensation for damages. A few mox diamonds isn't a lot of damages, so you wouldn't get much and as such there's no reason to file the lawsuit. If they do a mass-reprinting of popular reserved list cards to open up Legacy by significantly reducing the prices on those cards, then the damages go into the billions and it becomes well worth it.
Why? There are NDAs attached to the details, which is why WotC/Magic employees answer the topic in a very tongue-in-cheek manner. This is also beyond an American courts thing. There are numerous countries involved (think of Europe and Asia where the game is also played) where such a RL reprint case could be disastrous. Magic is also selling like hotcakes. There's no reason to open pandora's box over something that is otherwise a financial cash-cow.
If that's not enough, the Magic Cartel would give final approval if the lawsuit situation were somehow cleared. You know who I am talking about. They currently keep MTG popular (tournaments and distribution), hype product for WotC (advertising new sets, etc), but ultimately own most of the cards in existence. Forget individual collectors. The bulk of MTG cards are owned by private corporations similar to hedge funds owning stocks. No hedge fund would willingly tank the value of their portfolio. While an increasing number of Legacy and Vintage players "agree" to reprinting something (for scarcity or price-inflation reasons), the Cartel wouldn't...unless it were profitable.
Taking a step back, there will come a day where large % of players feel a "price threshold" has been reached and the format is financially 'not worth it'. Rather than cash out entirely, WotC created Modern as a semi-alternative eternal format to Legacy. I felt Modern's announcement marked the slow but eventual end for Legacy. Granted, we aren't there yet, but the idea of inevitability remains. Modern is there to absorb players (both from Standard and Legacy alike). Modern can be reprinted. Modern can be "controlled" (even if its B/R list is poorly managed). Where am I going with this? Modern's reprintability serves as a large-scale counterweight to Legacy's RL. The cost of the game will continue to rise. That's just going to happen (as the secondary market continues to push prices higher overall).
Magic is a collectable card game. It hurts me to say it, but WotC will most likely let Legacy drift away similar to Vintage. And yea, Vintage is still being played. The collectable part of MTG let the format fade, but it's still around. The RL isn't going to budge (I highly doubt it guys). Modern is where WotC wants to funnel us. And at a certain point, the Magic Cartel will switch their focus from Legacy to Modern. This is the roadmap for competitive eternal and it is all tied to the RL situation.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
The idea that Legacy could die and we could be stuck playing Modern (which in my personal opinion is abysmal in comparison) due to a knee-jerk reaction from Chronicles and their reprinting of things like Killer Bees, Carrion Ants and Concordant Crossroads just to name a few is terrible.
I believe that Legacy is supported by an organic player base, unlike Modern. I'd hope that eventually they would abandon the RL and make even more money.
Look up how many times people have sued a company because they went back on a promise and won, because I couldn't find a case where it wasn't dismissed at the earliest stage. The video game "League of Legends" recently went back on a promise to never sell certain "Skins" again. Pretty much the exact same situation as this. This upset tons of players and several of them threatened to seek legal action. The few of them that were serious all came back with the same story. A real attorney laughed them out of their office saying even if they did have a claim, which they don't, they were not about to take on a corporation worth over 4 BILLION dollars for doing what they please with their own copyright-ed and Trademark-ed brand.
If that's not enough, the Magic Cartel would give final approval if the lawsuit situation were somehow cleared. You know who I am talking about. They currently keep MTG popular (tournaments and distribution), hype product for WotC (advertising new sets, etc), but ultimately own most of the cards in existence. Forget individual collectors. The bulk of MTG cards are owned by private corporations similar to hedge funds owning stocks. No hedge fund would willingly tank the value of their portfolio. While an increasing number of Legacy and Vintage players "agree" to reprinting something (for scarcity or price-inflation reasons), the Cartel wouldn't...unless it were profitable.
Wouldn't SCG be among that 'Cartel' or are you thinking of different people? As SCG is completely for removing the reserved list.
As well, if interest in legacy starts falling due to price barriers, price will fall as well, as if they cannot sell their items, then they lose value.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
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When did I say that playability would be hurt by reprints? To be honest, I don't even know what that means. I said that if the original printing of a card's value drops after a large reprint, it shows that its inflated value was because of playability, not merely collectibility. Cards truly coveted by collectors are relatively impervious to reprints, especially if the new cards are noticeably different.
Yes, it is, when talking about the opinion of players who want the Reserved List gone. Putting a small amount of cards into the supply, but keeping prices at the same unattainable levels, does nothing to increase accessibility. 100,000 of a card at $100 each and 110,000 of a card at $100 each presents the same long-term problems, apart from achieving the short-term goal of possibly having slightly more players in the format.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
Here's where you talked about playability and price - I should have worded it better, but I think you should have gotten what I meant. I'm sick right now, so sue me.
Well, sorry but that's what Legacy Masters will achieve. What you people want is another Chronicles. That. Simply. Will. Not. Happen. Collectors with enough weight to throw around would cause trouble for WotC (as mass-printing would be injuring the value of their collection, which they built up trusting in the word of WotC on the Reserved List). That wouldn't be the worst of it - dealers absolutely would rebel against WotC over this. The nice part about putting out Legacy Masters is that you can ammend the rules around the Reserved List without injuring collectors and you would be able to get dealers on board with it. Lowering prices, though? Forget it - keep dreaming. This is the same conversation that was had over a decade ago when Vintage was in Legacy's current place and too many people were complaining about the barrier to entry. Honestly, my response is either 1) go out and earn it with a job like many Legacy players have, 2) win pieces in proxy tournaments, 3) trade up over time, or 4) play in proxy tournaments. This is real life - deal with it.
And this is where I exit the discussion with you. Enjoy.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
Legacy will always be expensive, and that is fine. It makes it interesting, the stakes are higher, the prestige associated with it it satisfying. Nobody wants to take that away. We're talking about preserving it so that it can continue to thrive. I just don't get the "I've got mine, tough luck for you" crowd. It'll be you complaining when all you get to do is look at your pretty cards in a few years because you can't actually play with them anywhere anymore.
Mox Diamond was because of a loophole that allowed for limited edition premium reprints, originally intended to give them the ability to print Judge foils.
I don't work for WOTC/Hasbro, and obviously the reserve list is not a binding contract in the literal sense, but I think it's more of a cost/benefit approach. They seem to think the negatives, which does include a possible class-action from store owners, outweigh the positives.
Hey, what did Vintage ever do to you? It is actually a very fun format with some of the nicest players you can find. The general attitude is: "I have an $8000+ deck here and I just love taking it for a spin, win or lose."
I think it is actually more of "I had to work hard to get mine, I encourage you to do the same and look forward to seeing you at the next tournament." It isn't so much "nya nya, I have things and you don't" but "I feel where you are coming from, it sucks to spend so much money but it is worth it and probably isn't going to get better so get in as soon as you can." Overall, however, I really agree with what you are saying here. It would be best if Legacy prices kept up with inflation, not the rapidly ballooning trend they are on now.
And once again, please stop all the hate for "collectors" (not from the dude I am quoting necessarily, but in general when the RL comes up). Most of us with large collections are players first and would prefer to have more people to play with than an increase in the value of our cards.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
Giving more people access to the card, and hyping up a format aren't valid reasons?
As for legal implications, they do not exist. Not to mention the money WotC raked in over reprinting duals and such would far outweigh any legal expenses with ease as people would flock to a legacy masters set like bees to honey.
Currently Playing:
Retired
To expand on this. Out of print cards can only be sold at a rate equal to what they can be obtained at. If SCG buys an average of 1 Underground Sea per day, they can only sell 1 Undergrond Sea per day. If a new in print item comes out SCG can buy as many of that product as they want, open it up, and sell the new Seas letting them sell say 5 per day. Once that goes out of print and there's way more supply out there, way more people will be selling them, and they can obtain and sell 2-3 per day.
SCG, CFB, and any other store out there that buys collections stands to make a huge profit on the Reserve List disappearing, even if their existing stock devalues a little bit in the short term.
Legal precedent? You mean breach of contract? Wizards made a contract with the playerbase: they would not reprint certain cards and, in exchange, received investment from a group of players. Breaching this contract would open up for lawsuit. It would be a mess and cost quite a bit. The reason you didn't see it with a Mox Diamond reprint is because that isn't on a scale large enough for collectors to go to court. Wizards' legal team might be able to find some possible out, but it's going to be a stretch and something they probably don't want to risk. The reserve list is never going to leave. It was a mistake, and is a mistake that Wizards has to deal with.
There would be an argument for unjust enrichment: that Wizards only profited so much off of legacy masters because of their deceitful promise of the reserve list. If this is found true, say goodbye to that profit.
And what makes you think that?
And why do you say that? Because Wizards would employ more successful lawyers? A big name class action attorney would love to hop on this and receive 40-50%. Wizards made a contract. They can't just go breaking it and expect to get away. They might have some technicality escape, but it's still a risk that could cost quite a lot.
You don't seem to understand supply and demand. If you increase the supply, and the demand increases equally, or more than equally, the price stays the same or goes up. Hyping up a format, or selling packs, raises interest about it, thus increasing demand.
Welcome to the USA, See - Healthcare.
This whole petition for a reprint is stupid.
A better approach is a petition against a reprint. If zero people sign such a petition then wizards have a green light to reprint duals. Then they have something to fall back on when they do get sued.
This is exactly the case. I think a lot of people in here have a poor understanding of the legal system based around media perception and not the reality of the situation. There just isn't any evidence for a lawsuit having legal standing. I can think of far more egregious examples of broken promises with customers that occur constantly in other industries without any legal recourse (just look at how much of this happens in the video game industry).
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
I don't understand why if cost is a factor... Commander seems like the perfect game. There's no rotation to deal with, so you can play your Green Sun Zeniths and Kessig Wolf Runs to your hearts content. It's competitive enough that your tuned Azusa deck should be able to trample over some random guy with a budget dragon deck. The barrier to entry is relatively low. You can get away with not playing the full suite of non-basics and not get completely crushed. At the same time, it's not the worst thing in the world to drop 500 bucks and really pimp out a commander deck. Because presuming that you drop the 30 bucks on Chord of Calling and 40 on some sac lands and another 30 on some Eldrazi creatures... those cards are in your collection forever now and you can use them in any commander deck you want. Once you've purchased a lot of the staples in the 2-3 colors you like playing, all the other cards are usually cheap so switching from one strategy to another might cost 10 dollars total.
If reprints occurred I'm pretty sure prices would drop on dual lands and such. $250 for new in print underground sea's printed at rare? For that to happen WotC would have to print a very small amount indeed. Although foils would be gigantic in terms of price. So many legacy and vintage players/pimps would want them...
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Uhm, when you file a civil suit, you do so to receive compensation for damages. A few mox diamonds isn't a lot of damages, so you wouldn't get much and as such there's no reason to file the lawsuit. If they do a mass-reprinting of popular reserved list cards to open up Legacy by significantly reducing the prices on those cards, then the damages go into the billions and it becomes well worth it.
Why? There are NDAs attached to the details, which is why WotC/Magic employees answer the topic in a very tongue-in-cheek manner. This is also beyond an American courts thing. There are numerous countries involved (think of Europe and Asia where the game is also played) where such a RL reprint case could be disastrous. Magic is also selling like hotcakes. There's no reason to open pandora's box over something that is otherwise a financial cash-cow.
If that's not enough, the Magic Cartel would give final approval if the lawsuit situation were somehow cleared. You know who I am talking about. They currently keep MTG popular (tournaments and distribution), hype product for WotC (advertising new sets, etc), but ultimately own most of the cards in existence. Forget individual collectors. The bulk of MTG cards are owned by private corporations similar to hedge funds owning stocks. No hedge fund would willingly tank the value of their portfolio. While an increasing number of Legacy and Vintage players "agree" to reprinting something (for scarcity or price-inflation reasons), the Cartel wouldn't...unless it were profitable.
Taking a step back, there will come a day where large % of players feel a "price threshold" has been reached and the format is financially 'not worth it'. Rather than cash out entirely, WotC created Modern as a semi-alternative eternal format to Legacy. I felt Modern's announcement marked the slow but eventual end for Legacy. Granted, we aren't there yet, but the idea of inevitability remains. Modern is there to absorb players (both from Standard and Legacy alike). Modern can be reprinted. Modern can be "controlled" (even if its B/R list is poorly managed). Where am I going with this? Modern's reprintability serves as a large-scale counterweight to Legacy's RL. The cost of the game will continue to rise. That's just going to happen (as the secondary market continues to push prices higher overall).
Magic is a collectable card game. It hurts me to say it, but WotC will most likely let Legacy drift away similar to Vintage. And yea, Vintage is still being played. The collectable part of MTG let the format fade, but it's still around. The RL isn't going to budge (I highly doubt it guys). Modern is where WotC wants to funnel us. And at a certain point, the Magic Cartel will switch their focus from Legacy to Modern. This is the roadmap for competitive eternal and it is all tied to the RL situation.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I believe that Legacy is supported by an organic player base, unlike Modern. I'd hope that eventually they would abandon the RL and make even more money.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
Wouldn't SCG be among that 'Cartel' or are you thinking of different people? As SCG is completely for removing the reserved list.
As well, if interest in legacy starts falling due to price barriers, price will fall as well, as if they cannot sell their items, then they lose value.