I wrote a blog post about this here on MTGS a couple of days ago.
Legacy is a hugely successful eternal format but its health is at risk due to the Reserved List, a list designed to protect collector investments after the Chronicles debacle in 1995.
The list was revised once in 2002 after a vote by the players. Since then, the collectors have had their way by forcing Wizards to stop printing physical cards from the Reserved List in any playable form after the 2009 release of FTV: Relics.
Today, the players are here to downed out the voice of the collectors.
Our objective is to revise the Reserved List to only include cards that are banned in Legacy and/or Vintage & Restricted in Vintage and possible a select few other cards that do not see play in those formats. This would still allow for cards like the Power 9 and Library of Alexandria to never be reprinted and continue to retain value while allowing many needed reprints of cards like dual lands, Tabernacle of the Pendral Vale, Moat, Candralabra of Tawnos, Lion's Eye Diamond, Intuition, City of Traitors, and Gaea's Cradle to name a few in a set similar to Modern Masters. This would also allow for many Legacy playable cards to be reprint that are in need of reprinting but are not on the Reserved List like Force of Will, Karakas, Wasteland, the saclands from Onslaught, as well as many others.
Considering the plan that Wizards put into place with Modern Masters, most cards that were reprinted have actually increased in price due to demand. I feel that a Legacy Masters set would do the same.
All signers of the petition agree that they will not support any other eternal format as a substitute for Legacy.
You can sign the petition here. Then forward this petition to as many MTG players as you know. While I have targeted 100K signatures as a goal, I want as many as I can get. The more players that tell Wizards to fix this absurdity, the better.
What so you can buy underground sea for $30 again but tabernacle still costs $600 dollars to obtain a single copy? Sounds like a great plan.
I've always been for the abolition of the reserved list. I don't care if my $20K collection becomes worth $10K due to reprints of dual lands. That being said, it's not going to happen. Ever. I wish it did, but that's just it. A wish.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I don't think they should reprint anything except for the duals.
This. I think the reserve list is an interesting concept, and I understand it why it's there too. Though I believe for the health of legacy sooner or later the duals pretty much have to be reprinted in some way shape or form. I think the best course of action is to edit those lands off the list. As it is currently, it feels like WofC is prioritizing collectors over the actual players, which doesn't feel so great.
I understand why they wouldn't abolish the list completely; they don't want prices to tank on singles; that would cause a lot of high end MTG shops to lose a lot of money if for example they stocked up on Rishadan Port for 80 each only to have its price tank to 20. And those high end shops are what keep WotC in business. So it makes sense that they respect the business side of things.
Signed. The reserved list is completely arbitrary and detrimental for the game as a whole. They stopped adding cards to the list, what, 15 years ago? Proving it was a massive mistake, otherwise they would still be doing it. Plus, the list doesn't even work. Afiya Grove shows that the reserved list actually does nothing but hinder reprinting.
Everyone that is saying "only reprint the duals" is ignoring the fact that the deck's price will not change much if duals and fetches are reprinted a million times over. If you increase the demand for a deck by lowering one card's price, demand for the other cards will increase with it. People will spend up to $X to play it. If the price of a set of tundras is only $20, you can bet that stoneforges will be $60, FoW will be $200, and jtms will be $300.
You can either reprint everything or nothing. But what is their incentive to reprint cards from the reserve list? They won't be making more money, since it won't increase the number of overall players or the size of their wallets. All that will happen is people will be upset and they'll get negative publicity, as well as several people quitting. If they choose to continue things as they are now, they stand to make a lot more money from people moving into modern and purchasing cards they can reprint anyways.
Hecatomb.
I would perform this ritual to a deity of your choice for a chance at foil new border versions of dual lands, Force of Will, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale etc. I already own the originals of these, but I want to have my Lands deck be entirely foil. I want people to be able to play Legacy by being able to trade for my non foils.
I want them to print cards and make money. Print cards people want to have, not tripe people seem to suffer through.
I agree with Black Lotus. You reprint the ABUR duals and ONS fetchlands, so everyone can buy legacy manabases for cheap. You now have a huge influx of players who need every other card for their deck now. The price of the most used staples would at least double, and possibly triple or quadruple based on the demand or rarity of the other staples. They either need to dedicate themselves to reprinting all the old/expensive/scarce staples...or none.
The number of actual cards on the reserved list people want reprinted is probably not very long. The #1 thing on everyones list would be the ABUR dual lands.
I think a petition to abolish the RL would never happen. The amount of pressure that would be needed to force WotC's hand would be too huge of an undertaking to accomplish. Wizards has already shot themselves in the foot with the list, and I don't think they ever want to address it again.
Chronicles was sort of the exact opposite of Modern Masters. They wanted to take cards from sets with a sort print run and get more of them out into the hands of the players, but they wildly overprinted the set. The value of these cards - many of which were worth $20-$50 - absolutely tanked, dropping to maybe 25% of where it was. Obviously stores, who were sitting on card stock, didn't like this very much.
You have to understand that "competitive" Magic was in its infancy, and pricing was heavily based on casual appeal. Inefficient but flashy creatures such as the Elder Dragons topped that list. It's crazy to think about Carrion Ants being a $25 card or Akron Legionnaire being worth $5, but that was the case.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Wizards do not seem to be able to handle Modern prices and their MM series made prices of top staples even worse. I'd LOVE to have the reserved list removed, but I don't see Wizards being able to do anything about it or legacy prices.
On another note, can anyone explain what exactly happened in "the Chronicles debacle"? I keep hearing about it, but do not have any details about it. Is there any good article about it?
Chronicles enraged collectors and players who shelled out big bucks for high demand cards from Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, and The Dark. Ask any old-schooler about it, and I'm sure they or someone they knew shelled out over $30 for an Elder Dragon or something of the like that tanked in value to around $10 when Chronicles was printed. The major problem with Chronicles was that WotC printed in too high of volume, which sent prices plummeting. As a result, WotC vowed to never make a Chronicles-like set again to keep consumers (not just collectors) happy.
Modern Masters has demonstrated that you can reprint without sending prices spiraling downward if you do it in a limited run. This is why I fully support a limited-run Legacy Masters series. The problem is, WotC really has no motivation to support Legacy - it really doesn't make much money off of it, and I seriously doubt that WotC will listen to a petition. What I think needs to be done is to get Legacy's biggest ally behind it - Star City Games. If SCG can be convinced that they can make a ton of money off of a Legacy Masters set without losing value in their investments, you bet they will push on WotC to see it happen.
I think WotC may do this in their own time. They would do a lot more exploration and experimentation with the process and ramifications of reprinting non-reserve high value cards first, though.
A petition to try to rush them is a nice venting exercise at best.
I think the vitriol against collectors should stop. According to TCGplayer my collection is worth anywhere from $23,000 to $38,000. I am on a mission to collect a play set of every Vintage and Legacy playable card. I am currently 3 Candelabra of Tawnos, 1 Moat, 1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, 4 Bazaar of Baghdad and 4 Mishra's Workshop away. Granted that is thirteen $300 cards. I don't say this to brag (though I admit there is an aspect of that) but to illustrate where I am coming from. I would gladly take a large hit in the value of my collection ($10,000-$15,000) if it meant that I could more easily obtain the remaining staples and have more people to play Legacy/Vintage against. I would like to believe that I am probably among the majority here when it comes to single collectors with large collections. Most of us are players first and have the large collections because we want to play with them, not as an investment. Most of us are smart enough to have other investments that are real investments with much larger values. Magic is a hobby and a game and I am all for anything that strengthens that.
Maybe the singles retailers are the real reason for the reserved list, something that I hadn't considered before reading this thread. Of course, Starcitygames has said they would be in favor of abolishing it so...
Regardless, it ain't going to happen. Start saving up for your Legacy deck. The format is healthy and high prices prove that as much as they hinder it.
I still think an official WOTC cube with gold-bordered cards would be an easy way to at least recirculate legacy staples to the casual crowd.
Vintage Masters really suggests that WOTC will at least support these formats online, where they can actually make some money off of them. I doubt that they do much more to support paper Legacy, beyond printing new cards that are good.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
You can't change anything with that kind of attitude.
I almost think that Wizards wants to kill off Legacy so there is no question about the Reserved List again and they can work Modern but doing so might actually decrease prices permanently on certain older cards which retailers / collectors would complain about too.
I can see retailers argument for not reprinting cards on the Reserved List but after what happened with Modern Masters, I don't think they have a case anymore. Cards in those sets gained value after a short dip because players had a way to get into a new format and eventually increased demand.
Star City created a huge market for Legacy with the Open Series. Demand has increased but there are not enough copies of certain cards (The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale comes to mind). Take a good look at the overall increase of Legacy played cards over the last 3 years and you'll notice anywhere from a steady to a sharp increase in price (anywhere from double to quadruple the price increase). As long as Legacy (or even Vintage) is a format and widely played, these cards are going to continue to increase at these rates. How else do you continue to add players to Legacy when there are few copies of these cards available? The demand is for the product is there. Creating a set like Legacy Masters would help current demand and create future demand. Sure it will decrease prices early somewhat but increases value in the long run as more demand is created. This helps all sides as it allows Wizards to print a short print run every X number of years as the game continues to grow. It creates demand which keeps prices where retailers want them. It gives players more opportunity to get the cards they want.
As a side note, the original copies of these cards are much more susceptible to being counterfeited right now. Being able to incorporate them into the newer frame with a company font and more security is also good for the game.
Eliminating the reserved list has legal implications and as such it will never happen. They could get sued for a lot. It's the same reason they took so long to ban Stoneforge Mystic from Standard and eventually were only able to do it with that condition - they advertised a product with SFM in it as FNM ready, and if SFM was banned, this is a lie. For the same reason, they can't go back on the reserved list.
The reserved list was made to ensure collectors and dealers wouldn't be injured by reprinting certain cards. A set like MM gets around that as no injury is caused to the parties concerned. In order for these collectors and dealers to have a case, they would have to prove they were injured. With the precedent MM has set, I think they would have a tough time proving injury
Wotc has long since been bought out by Hasboro and is no longer tied to promises that some people made 20 years ago, some of whom don't even work there any more. Any company with the capitol that Wotc has could easy get out of any "promise" made today, much less one they made 20 years ago.
Eliminating the reserved list has legal implications and as such it will never happen. They could get sued for a lot. It's the same reason they took so long to ban Stoneforge Mystic from Standard and eventually were only able to do it with that condition - they advertised a product with SFM in it as FNM ready, and if SFM was banned, this is a lie. For the same reason, they can't go back on the reserved list.
People say this, but I've yet to see any kind of legal precedent for this. Especially since they've broken the reserve list without repercussions (see Mox Diamond reprint).
Here is the Issue. Legacy is popular largely because of SCG Open series. Before that the cards where worth 1/5th of what they are today. But if you start reprinting all of the older stuff, you cost SCG and like companies a ton of money. Perhaps putting them out of business. So no more Legacy opens weekly. Putting the format back to here it was 5 years ago. Which was hardly played.
Maybe some collectors would sue. I've always maintained that if WotC/Hasbro could wrap their collective heads around the fact
that the sales of a Legacy Masters set would absolutely DWARF anything collectors could theoretically win in court(which it would never get to anyway).
It's been proven through time that multiple printings don't tank the values of the originals. Look at Alpha/Beta Birds of Paradise and Shivan Dragon.
A Legacy Masters set would increase supply AND demand.
People would want to break into legacy with new product.
Others would want to change the duals they have to foil versions, (possibly) freeing up the originals.
Still others would want to change their deck to modern frame as much as they could, (possibly) freeing up the originals.
Signed. It simply makes no sense to me that a format so rich in Magic's history would be left to die when there are so many people who would love to be more deeply involved with it. It has been proven that reprints never attain the value of the originals, so collectors are doing nothing but hampering the longevity of the game itself. All of the formats have their place. I like the ever-changing nature of Standard, the balance of Modern, and the wild-west environment of Legacy. Let Vintage be for the collectors. Let the rest of us enjoy the most diverse format in Magic without having to take out a loan to get in the door. It will only get worse, and fast. Its just sad to see.
Here is the Issue. Legacy is popular largely because of SCG Open series. Before that the cards where worth 1/5th of what they are today. But if you start reprinting all of the older stuff, you cost SCG and like companies a ton of money. Perhaps putting them out of business. So no more Legacy opens weekly. Putting the format back to here it was 5 years ago. Which was hardly played.
... except it won't with a limited run printing. The demand for the limited supply will make scg and other dealers alot of money. Furthermore, the scg open is not the reason why Legacy is popular. It's the fact that it has a legitimate ban list that actually makes sense unlike what it had a decade ago. The scg open did help make it popular, but the format would easily survive without scg now. It still needs scg to grow with a push for limited runreprints.
A few thoughts from a player considering a return.
When you explain this GAME to a new player it seems fascinating. Various formats with different history and styles of play. Then you explain that is cost HOW much to play at a tournament level? You have to be kidding me?
If Legacy players (and even Modern) players want to grow their format and not watch it wither at a local (attainable for most people) level then they should be in support on reprints. If you truly think it is a game and want it to grow you have to figure out how to fix the money issue. Modern will suffer the same fate. There can always be a super high level of play as SCG can throw out large prizes, this is going to attract some players regardless.
Even standard is staggering at the amounts it cost to play tournament level.
Signed the petition, and this is just my opinion.
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Legacy is a hugely successful eternal format but its health is at risk due to the Reserved List, a list designed to protect collector investments after the Chronicles debacle in 1995.
The list was revised once in 2002 after a vote by the players. Since then, the collectors have had their way by forcing Wizards to stop printing physical cards from the Reserved List in any playable form after the 2009 release of FTV: Relics.
Today, the players are here to downed out the voice of the collectors.
Our objective is to revise the Reserved List to only include cards that are banned in Legacy and/or Vintage & Restricted in Vintage and possible a select few other cards that do not see play in those formats. This would still allow for cards like the Power 9 and Library of Alexandria to never be reprinted and continue to retain value while allowing many needed reprints of cards like dual lands, Tabernacle of the Pendral Vale, Moat, Candralabra of Tawnos, Lion's Eye Diamond, Intuition, City of Traitors, and Gaea's Cradle to name a few in a set similar to Modern Masters. This would also allow for many Legacy playable cards to be reprint that are in need of reprinting but are not on the Reserved List like Force of Will, Karakas, Wasteland, the saclands from Onslaught, as well as many others.
Considering the plan that Wizards put into place with Modern Masters, most cards that were reprinted have actually increased in price due to demand. I feel that a Legacy Masters set would do the same.
All signers of the petition agree that they will not support any other eternal format as a substitute for Legacy.
You can sign the petition here. Then forward this petition to as many MTG players as you know. While I have targeted 100K signatures as a goal, I want as many as I can get. The more players that tell Wizards to fix this absurdity, the better.
I've always been for the abolition of the reserved list. I don't care if my $20K collection becomes worth $10K due to reprints of dual lands. That being said, it's not going to happen. Ever. I wish it did, but that's just it. A wish.
Currently Playing:
Retired
This. I think the reserve list is an interesting concept, and I understand it why it's there too. Though I believe for the health of legacy sooner or later the duals pretty much have to be reprinted in some way shape or form. I think the best course of action is to edit those lands off the list. As it is currently, it feels like WofC is prioritizing collectors over the actual players, which doesn't feel so great.
I understand why they wouldn't abolish the list completely; they don't want prices to tank on singles; that would cause a lot of high end MTG shops to lose a lot of money if for example they stocked up on Rishadan Port for 80 each only to have its price tank to 20. And those high end shops are what keep WotC in business. So it makes sense that they respect the business side of things.
http://store.tcgplayer.com/magic/future-sight/tarmogoyf
Check out how MM didn't help the price of Tarmogofy at all. Case in point.
Everyone that is saying "only reprint the duals" is ignoring the fact that the deck's price will not change much if duals and fetches are reprinted a million times over. If you increase the demand for a deck by lowering one card's price, demand for the other cards will increase with it. People will spend up to $X to play it. If the price of a set of tundras is only $20, you can bet that stoneforges will be $60, FoW will be $200, and jtms will be $300.
You can either reprint everything or nothing. But what is their incentive to reprint cards from the reserve list? They won't be making more money, since it won't increase the number of overall players or the size of their wallets. All that will happen is people will be upset and they'll get negative publicity, as well as several people quitting. If they choose to continue things as they are now, they stand to make a lot more money from people moving into modern and purchasing cards they can reprint anyways.
I would perform this ritual to a deity of your choice for a chance at foil new border versions of dual lands, Force of Will, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale etc. I already own the originals of these, but I want to have my Lands deck be entirely foil. I want people to be able to play Legacy by being able to trade for my non foils.
I want them to print cards and make money. Print cards people want to have, not tripe people seem to suffer through.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
The number of actual cards on the reserved list people want reprinted is probably not very long. The #1 thing on everyones list would be the ABUR dual lands.
I think a petition to abolish the RL would never happen. The amount of pressure that would be needed to force WotC's hand would be too huge of an undertaking to accomplish. Wizards has already shot themselves in the foot with the list, and I don't think they ever want to address it again.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
You have to understand that "competitive" Magic was in its infancy, and pricing was heavily based on casual appeal. Inefficient but flashy creatures such as the Elder Dragons topped that list. It's crazy to think about Carrion Ants being a $25 card or Akron Legionnaire being worth $5, but that was the case.
Chronicles enraged collectors and players who shelled out big bucks for high demand cards from Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, and The Dark. Ask any old-schooler about it, and I'm sure they or someone they knew shelled out over $30 for an Elder Dragon or something of the like that tanked in value to around $10 when Chronicles was printed. The major problem with Chronicles was that WotC printed in too high of volume, which sent prices plummeting. As a result, WotC vowed to never make a Chronicles-like set again to keep consumers (not just collectors) happy.
Modern Masters has demonstrated that you can reprint without sending prices spiraling downward if you do it in a limited run. This is why I fully support a limited-run Legacy Masters series. The problem is, WotC really has no motivation to support Legacy - it really doesn't make much money off of it, and I seriously doubt that WotC will listen to a petition. What I think needs to be done is to get Legacy's biggest ally behind it - Star City Games. If SCG can be convinced that they can make a ton of money off of a Legacy Masters set without losing value in their investments, you bet they will push on WotC to see it happen.
A petition to try to rush them is a nice venting exercise at best.
Maybe the singles retailers are the real reason for the reserved list, something that I hadn't considered before reading this thread. Of course, Starcitygames has said they would be in favor of abolishing it so...
Regardless, it ain't going to happen. Start saving up for your Legacy deck. The format is healthy and high prices prove that as much as they hinder it.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Vintage Masters really suggests that WOTC will at least support these formats online, where they can actually make some money off of them. I doubt that they do much more to support paper Legacy, beyond printing new cards that are good.
I almost think that Wizards wants to kill off Legacy so there is no question about the Reserved List again and they can work Modern but doing so might actually decrease prices permanently on certain older cards which retailers / collectors would complain about too.
I can see retailers argument for not reprinting cards on the Reserved List but after what happened with Modern Masters, I don't think they have a case anymore. Cards in those sets gained value after a short dip because players had a way to get into a new format and eventually increased demand.
Star City created a huge market for Legacy with the Open Series. Demand has increased but there are not enough copies of certain cards (The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale comes to mind). Take a good look at the overall increase of Legacy played cards over the last 3 years and you'll notice anywhere from a steady to a sharp increase in price (anywhere from double to quadruple the price increase). As long as Legacy (or even Vintage) is a format and widely played, these cards are going to continue to increase at these rates. How else do you continue to add players to Legacy when there are few copies of these cards available? The demand is for the product is there. Creating a set like Legacy Masters would help current demand and create future demand. Sure it will decrease prices early somewhat but increases value in the long run as more demand is created. This helps all sides as it allows Wizards to print a short print run every X number of years as the game continues to grow. It creates demand which keeps prices where retailers want them. It gives players more opportunity to get the cards they want.
As a side note, the original copies of these cards are much more susceptible to being counterfeited right now. Being able to incorporate them into the newer frame with a company font and more security is also good for the game.
People say this, but I've yet to see any kind of legal precedent for this. Especially since they've broken the reserve list without repercussions (see Mox Diamond reprint).
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
that the sales of a Legacy Masters set would absolutely DWARF anything collectors could theoretically win in court(which it would never get to anyway).
It's been proven through time that multiple printings don't tank the values of the originals. Look at Alpha/Beta Birds of Paradise and Shivan Dragon.
A Legacy Masters set would increase supply AND demand.
People would want to break into legacy with new product.
Others would want to change the duals they have to foil versions, (possibly) freeing up the originals.
Still others would want to change their deck to modern frame as much as they could, (possibly) freeing up the originals.
Just my 2c
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=292409
... except it won't with a limited run printing. The demand for the limited supply will make scg and other dealers alot of money. Furthermore, the scg open is not the reason why Legacy is popular. It's the fact that it has a legitimate ban list that actually makes sense unlike what it had a decade ago. The scg open did help make it popular, but the format would easily survive without scg now. It still needs scg to grow with a push for limited runreprints.
When you explain this GAME to a new player it seems fascinating. Various formats with different history and styles of play. Then you explain that is cost HOW much to play at a tournament level? You have to be kidding me?
If Legacy players (and even Modern) players want to grow their format and not watch it wither at a local (attainable for most people) level then they should be in support on reprints. If you truly think it is a game and want it to grow you have to figure out how to fix the money issue. Modern will suffer the same fate. There can always be a super high level of play as SCG can throw out large prizes, this is going to attract some players regardless.
Even standard is staggering at the amounts it cost to play tournament level.
Signed the petition, and this is just my opinion.