Why is WotC so eager to avoid angering "collectors?" Why do they care if players who have obtained expensive and rare cards become upset over those cards losing value? Surely, those people are only a minority, compared to people (including myself) who wish to see rare and expensive cards reprinted?
Part of the difficulty is that the players who own those cards already are the base, they've been playing this game for many years. It's hard to craft a successful business maneuver that involves alienating a large number of core customers for the sake of a possibly larger number of potential customers. That's risky business.
Creating Modern to solve the Reserved list problem was a safer play in that sense; there's not much reason for anyone to get upset about Modern, with two exceptions. 1) if the format isn't perceived as being cool, which is a matter too colored by selection bias in this thread to be discussed seriously; and 2) it prevents combo-enablers from being printed in Standard, since Wizards wouldn't want to have that sort of thing legal in Modern.
It's #2 that I feel is a real shame. I recall a Standard where Heartbeat of Spring and Dragonstorm were real decks... it was cool to have a serious triumvirate of control-aggro-combo. I can't see that happening again.
they,as a firm,made a promise.Breaking that promise would cause stocks to drop and then their collectors(also known as stockholders would be pissed and heads would role).And they aren't interested in that scenario.
Sounds like brainwash to me. I would think the exact opposite myself...WotC abolishes the reprint policy and makes legacy masters boosters reprinting all the money cards at a premium and rakes in massive profits. Stockholders are happy because stock prices soar high.
Part of the difficulty is that the players who own those cards already are the base, they've been playing this game for many years. It's hard to craft a successful business maneuver that involves alienating a large number of core customers for the sake of a possibly larger number of potential customers. That's risky business.
Creating Modern to solve the Reserved list problem was a safer play in that sense; there's not much reason for anyone to get upset about Modern, with two exceptions. 1) if the format isn't perceived as being cool, which is a matter too colored by selection bias in this thread to be discussed seriously; and 2) it prevents combo-enablers from being printed in Standard, since Wizards wouldn't want to have that sort of thing legal in Modern.
It's #2 that I feel is a real shame. I recall a Standard where Heartbeat of Spring and Dragonstorm were real decks... it was cool to have a serious triumvirate of control-aggro-combo. I can't see that happening again.
I agree with you completely about the combo thing. However, even within the last few years we've had Splinter Twin and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle. I hold out hope of another Standard combo deck.
Still, it's possible that they are just being really careful and don't want to take any risks as magic is selling very well regardless of the reserved list.
You hit the nail on the head.
There is no reason for them to break the reserve list. They are in a very good business position right now with its presence. What reason do they have to risk hurting that position by potentially alienating customers with reprints from the list?
I think Wizards love that people see their cards as valuable. Which company wouldn't like to print money? If people see Magic as money ie. a safe storage of value, they'll be more inclined to buy cards.
Maybe Wizards can burn the user base by reprinting every cards they promised not to reprint but it will instill fear in customers. Would you still be as much willing to buy cards if you read in a newspaper article that a Magic store lost $5 M in inventory or hear bad things from bitter players who lost $10 000.
Do you really think that "collectors" doesn't interact with Wizards? Do you think that the guy buying duals for $3000 will not buy Voice of Resurgence or Liliana of the Veil? Do you think that cards traded for reserved lists ones were not bought from packs?
Players spending $1000 on old cards are the bigger spender in the games. They help store stay open when they fork $1000 for foil foreign cards, dual lands or power pieces. Maybe old players doesn't spend as much on standard stuff but they've been playing for a long time and will probably continue for a long time. Why? because they are committed monetarily to the game. Alienating your wealthy reliable player base is not a sound business plan.
It doesn't take much for a player to quit Magic. Print a bad set, ban a card, stop supporting a format, have a collection tank in value; those are all reasons someone can quit. Do Wizards want to risk some players because they think their money would be better invested in WoW TCG, in the new Ascension game or in a PS4?
Wizards acts in his best interest by managing risks and not killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. It is careful about Modern reprints, if it goes well they might have a Legacy or, god forbids, a Vintage Masters but they want to be sure that it will bring them the most money not just this year but also the next 20 years.
Why would anybody but collectors care about promises they have made, especially to such decree that stocks would drop? No rational stockholder would care about a company breaking a 15 year old promise (which is considered to be a quite dumb promise by many) to its customers, especially if it could mean more $$$.
It's true that's a risky business move, but I don't think Legacy players and hardcore collectors are a 'large number of core customers'. Standard and limited players + casual crowd are that group, and they couldn't care less about existence of the reserved list. I'd be surprised if Legacy players and collectors of old cards make even 5% of customers, and they (generally) don't buy that much new product anyways. So they would essentially lose something that's mostly irrelevant if the risk realizes, and potentially gain something if they are successful. Still, it's possible that they are just being really careful and don't want to take any risks as magic is selling very well regardless of the reserved list.
a) the Potental for a lawsuit might be more costly than they want on an exense line, even if they win lawsuits are not cheep, that 5% represent the TOP 5% of the $$, sort of like saying "why not tax the top 1% 80% of their income! I mean in the numbers game we still come out ahead! Legacy is what keeps alot of stores afloat they buy high end product, Collects buy ALOT of product, COLLECTORS typicaly buy a compleat set of everything. and often a compleat FOIL set of everything. Thats ALOT of packs
So, the general consensus is that WotC is not giving much support at the present time to legacy? Why is that? Do they not see the format as being profitable? How can players of this format continue to play it if WotC does not officially support it?
I'm my opinion, they can't. I think Wizards made modern specifically to kill legacy and extended players. But hey, if I know my fellow gamers, were gonna give a hell of a fight before the format just dies.
WotC does not give support to legacy, but the reason is not the reserved list. The reserved list is just a great smokescreen that allows them to say "well by gosh golly I WANT to support legacy but I just can't because I don't want to hurt all the people with all those reserved cards." The people have spoken and a vast majority want away with the list. The stores have spoken and want away with the list as well. So who is wizards protecting? They are protecting THEMSELVES. They know how much fun legacy is, but they also know that it simply isn't the cash cow limited/standard is. Thus, they do nothing to foster its growth. Of course, they won't kill it because they need a shining beacon of what modern could one day become, but thanks to the turn four rule and refusal to mass reprint safety valves such as Force of Will and Wasteland into modern (oh wait - at all?), modern will never really have a natural advance in power level, and modern will never be legacy. Rather, card after card will be banned, and newly printed cards will continuously be relevant in modern decks, ensuring that limited and standard remain cash cows. So how much support does wizards give to legacy? Enough to pretend that they want it to grow. Enough so that people can hope that one day, their new cards will be as popular as the cards in legacy, and packs will continue to be sold.
SCG is keeping the format alive. Allowing deck lists to still come out on the webs.
The only support I see from is the commander/planechase precon decks. I only say this because the "X" amount of new format only cards are also available to legacy/vintage.
wotc is a joke, afaic they killed mtg when mirroden came out, I dont support wotc in anything they do, I just play the game anymore. wotc does not get my money.
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Dictators prefer an unarmed population.
Decks I play and stuff.
I don't know how serious threat a potential lawsuit would be, though I grant that US legal system is retarded enough to make it a possibility.
But the 5% of players who play Legacy or collects cards definitely doesn't represent the top 5% of $$, at least if you talk about $$ going to Wotc! Legacy players I know tend to avoid playing Standard to save their money for Legacy staples, and most don't play that much limited either. So, they are essentially the least profitable customer type for Wizards because all that money goes to secondary market. Stores don't sell that much stuff to them either, because the cards are expensive, and it's worth the time to look for a good deal in forums or MCM.
Also, I don't know any collector who completes sets of everything, let alone foil sets. In my experience most collectors are mainly interested in older sets. But maybe it just happens to be the people I know, or it's just different in US?
That said, something like doing a mass reprint of duals would piss off people who own them and scare others. But I don't think we would be seeing that even without reserved list. They were quite careful with Modern Masters, and they would be at least as careful with Legacy Masters.
A lawsuit is definitely a possibility. Remember, they left Stoneforge Mystic in Standard until the absolute last minute and were only eventually able to ban it with a condition. Why? Because SFM was in an event deck, a product specifically advertised as being "FNM-ready" right out of the box. If they had just banned SFM outright in the best case they'd have had to recall every single copy of this product in addition to reimbursing pretty much every player that claimed to have purchased a copy. Worst case, they'd have had to deal with a massive class action suit for false advertising.
The reserved list represents a promise that a lot more money is riding on than this example. They're never going to touch it. In addition, why should collectors want the reserved list abolished? Reprinting duals absolutely would crash their prices. Also, remember that Vintage is basically a dead format. Have the prices of P9 dropped? No they haven't. There's no reason to think that Legacy dying will crash the prices of duals.
I'm my opinion, they can't. I think Wizards made modern specifically to kill legacy and extended players. But hey, if I know my fellow gamers, were gonna give a hell of a fight before the format just dies.
Why would WotC want to "kill" one of their own formats, and, if they do, how can players such as myself, players who enjoy being able to use any card from any set in the game, find support for their preferred playing style?
I wonder if the prices on some of the older staples would actually crash that much. Even if, for example, duals were reprinted in a hypothetical legacy masters, the price of the original alpha/beta/unlimited duals would still hold collector's value, wouldn't it?
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"An immense river of oblivion is sweeping us away into a nameless abyss." —Ernest Renan, Souvenirs d'Enfance et de Jeunesse
I wonder if the prices on some of the older staples would actually crash that much. Even if, for example, duals were reprinted in a hypothetical legacy masters, the price of the original alpha/beta/unlimited duals would still hold collector's value, wouldn't it?
Alpha and Beta for sure. Unlimited somewhat. Revised isn't very rare at all, and has little collector's value. The Revised duals' price tags are very much driven by Legacy/EDH demand, and as such I think we would see a significant drop in the case of a reprint.
I would love reprints of Duals with new art. Not to say the old art is bad, but I always like having alternate art options for my cards.
My perception is that not only does Wizards not support Legacy, but would actually like to see it die off and have us play one of their other formats (Standard or Modern).
It's not like we're seeing a decline in wotc support. Over the last three years, there has consistently been at least 2-3 gps for legacy. That's 2-3 gps for a card base that can't be reprinted due to the time honored pact that wizards made for their loyal card collectors. I for one, couldn't be happier with the current support.
They did hint to having Legacy as a PTQ format on Magic Online.
I think that would be a great thing, although I would hope they reprint some of the price offenders on modo that are keeping the price of entry still very high for a range of decks.
They did hint to having Legacy as a PTQ format on Magic Online.
I think that would be a great thing, although I would hope they reprint some of the price offenders on modo that are keeping the price of entry still very high for a range of decks.
I actually think that Modern being a heavily online format has hindered, and will continue to hinder, its ability to grow. A lot of people who want to play any format other than Standard, Casual, or EDH I guess, have to make a bit of an effort to routinely play. It appears as though a lot of Modern players have just resigned themselves to playing online, an easier alternative than growing a real-life community especially if support is lukewarm, and whatever Grand Prix WotC throws at them, which could be one of the reasons that it has a disappointing store presence and tournament activity in a lot of places. And that's where real, lasting growth in a format and MTG happens; this isn't a video game at heart.
I don't necessarily see Legacy being infrequently played on MTG Online as a bad thing. That said, I'd welcome PTQ on MTG Online and supplemental play. That would be more like a random big event that wouldn't inhibit real-life Legacy play, and might add to it.
If they cared about the format, they would have banned Show and Tell.
I disagree with this 100%.
Show and Tell is not broken. It is very good in Legacy but it is not broken.
But I think Wizards is actually doing an okay job with Legacy. We got Young Pyromancer and a reprint of Thoughtseize which really helps non-blue players get into Legacy.
In the past week or two, WotC has been hosting numerous events for legacy and vintage formats, so is that a sign that they still do care about those formats?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Legacy doesn't make WoTC money directly, mostly because of how cards are acquired. People can, and do, build decks out of packs they crack, but this only works in standard. In Legacy, the price of those packs plus the small quantity make it unfeasible. Thus we get our cards off of secondary singles markets, which gives not money to Wizards, so why would the support it?
The only way I can see them doing it is through printing things like FtV's, where there are some legacy cards in them (Such as JtMS in the last one). Or a Legacy Masters, although I really suspect that wouldn't go over well.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
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Part of the difficulty is that the players who own those cards already are the base, they've been playing this game for many years. It's hard to craft a successful business maneuver that involves alienating a large number of core customers for the sake of a possibly larger number of potential customers. That's risky business.
Creating Modern to solve the Reserved list problem was a safer play in that sense; there's not much reason for anyone to get upset about Modern, with two exceptions. 1) if the format isn't perceived as being cool, which is a matter too colored by selection bias in this thread to be discussed seriously; and 2) it prevents combo-enablers from being printed in Standard, since Wizards wouldn't want to have that sort of thing legal in Modern.
It's #2 that I feel is a real shame. I recall a Standard where Heartbeat of Spring and Dragonstorm were real decks... it was cool to have a serious triumvirate of control-aggro-combo. I can't see that happening again.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Sounds like brainwash to me. I would think the exact opposite myself...WotC abolishes the reprint policy and makes legacy masters boosters reprinting all the money cards at a premium and rakes in massive profits. Stockholders are happy because stock prices soar high.
I agree with you completely about the combo thing. However, even within the last few years we've had Splinter Twin and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle. I hold out hope of another Standard combo deck.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
You hit the nail on the head.
There is no reason for them to break the reserve list. They are in a very good business position right now with its presence. What reason do they have to risk hurting that position by potentially alienating customers with reprints from the list?
Maybe Wizards can burn the user base by reprinting every cards they promised not to reprint but it will instill fear in customers. Would you still be as much willing to buy cards if you read in a newspaper article that a Magic store lost $5 M in inventory or hear bad things from bitter players who lost $10 000.
Do you really think that "collectors" doesn't interact with Wizards? Do you think that the guy buying duals for $3000 will not buy Voice of Resurgence or Liliana of the Veil? Do you think that cards traded for reserved lists ones were not bought from packs?
Players spending $1000 on old cards are the bigger spender in the games. They help store stay open when they fork $1000 for foil foreign cards, dual lands or power pieces. Maybe old players doesn't spend as much on standard stuff but they've been playing for a long time and will probably continue for a long time. Why? because they are committed monetarily to the game. Alienating your wealthy reliable player base is not a sound business plan.
It doesn't take much for a player to quit Magic. Print a bad set, ban a card, stop supporting a format, have a collection tank in value; those are all reasons someone can quit. Do Wizards want to risk some players because they think their money would be better invested in WoW TCG, in the new Ascension game or in a PS4?
Wizards acts in his best interest by managing risks and not killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. It is careful about Modern reprints, if it goes well they might have a Legacy or, god forbids, a Vintage Masters but they want to be sure that it will bring them the most money not just this year but also the next 20 years.
a) the Potental for a lawsuit might be more costly than they want on an exense line, even if they win lawsuits are not cheep, that 5% represent the TOP 5% of the $$, sort of like saying "why not tax the top 1% 80% of their income! I mean in the numbers game we still come out ahead! Legacy is what keeps alot of stores afloat they buy high end product, Collects buy ALOT of product, COLLECTORS typicaly buy a compleat set of everything. and often a compleat FOIL set of everything. Thats ALOT of packs
I'm my opinion, they can't. I think Wizards made modern specifically to kill legacy and extended players. But hey, if I know my fellow gamers, were gonna give a hell of a fight before the format just dies.
The only support I see from is the commander/planechase precon decks. I only say this because the "X" amount of new format only cards are also available to legacy/vintage.
Decks I play and stuff.
Legacy Burn
Modern Mono U Tron
A lawsuit is definitely a possibility. Remember, they left Stoneforge Mystic in Standard until the absolute last minute and were only eventually able to ban it with a condition. Why? Because SFM was in an event deck, a product specifically advertised as being "FNM-ready" right out of the box. If they had just banned SFM outright in the best case they'd have had to recall every single copy of this product in addition to reimbursing pretty much every player that claimed to have purchased a copy. Worst case, they'd have had to deal with a massive class action suit for false advertising.
The reserved list represents a promise that a lot more money is riding on than this example. They're never going to touch it. In addition, why should collectors want the reserved list abolished? Reprinting duals absolutely would crash their prices. Also, remember that Vintage is basically a dead format. Have the prices of P9 dropped? No they haven't. There's no reason to think that Legacy dying will crash the prices of duals.
Why would WotC want to "kill" one of their own formats, and, if they do, how can players such as myself, players who enjoy being able to use any card from any set in the game, find support for their preferred playing style?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Alpha and Beta for sure. Unlimited somewhat. Revised isn't very rare at all, and has little collector's value. The Revised duals' price tags are very much driven by Legacy/EDH demand, and as such I think we would see a significant drop in the case of a reprint.
Legacy
Control
Miracles
All flavors of Stoneblade
Aggro
Grixis Delver
UR Delver
Burn
Combo
Dredge
TES/ANT
UR & UB Reanimator
Belcher
My perception is that not only does Wizards not support Legacy, but would actually like to see it die off and have us play one of their other formats (Standard or Modern).
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
I think that would be a great thing, although I would hope they reprint some of the price offenders on modo that are keeping the price of entry still very high for a range of decks.
I actually think that Modern being a heavily online format has hindered, and will continue to hinder, its ability to grow. A lot of people who want to play any format other than Standard, Casual, or EDH I guess, have to make a bit of an effort to routinely play. It appears as though a lot of Modern players have just resigned themselves to playing online, an easier alternative than growing a real-life community especially if support is lukewarm, and whatever Grand Prix WotC throws at them, which could be one of the reasons that it has a disappointing store presence and tournament activity in a lot of places. And that's where real, lasting growth in a format and MTG happens; this isn't a video game at heart.
I don't necessarily see Legacy being infrequently played on MTG Online as a bad thing. That said, I'd welcome PTQ on MTG Online and supplemental play. That would be more like a random big event that wouldn't inhibit real-life Legacy play, and might add to it.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
I disagree with this 100%.
Show and Tell is not broken. It is very good in Legacy but it is not broken.
But I think Wizards is actually doing an okay job with Legacy. We got Young Pyromancer and a reprint of Thoughtseize which really helps non-blue players get into Legacy.
I do think making cards for EDH and they are playable for legacy and vintage is a good sign.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
The only way I can see them doing it is through printing things like FtV's, where there are some legacy cards in them (Such as JtMS in the last one). Or a Legacy Masters, although I really suspect that wouldn't go over well.