New Legend Rule and how it will change legacy forever

  • #126
    Quote from Lord_McDonalds
    Miss Elspeth and her army would like a word with you :p


    Elspeth is certainly better in a vacuum, but Tezz is far more powerful when properly built around.
    Tezz when he's built around is even stronger than Jace would be in the same deck (though of course this doesn't stop you from running both).
  • #127
    Vendilion Clique just got much better.....Play Clique #2 in response to the first one being targeted.

    I'm going to wait to see how Liliana 2.0 and JTMS mirrors are going to play out, but Jitte mirrors are going to be abysmal.
    Quote from Raver
    oh noesssss....whatever shall we do? Your $400 deck got trumped by an uncommon, you mad bro?
  • #128
    Quote from GundamGuy
    So you can run 4x Lotus Petal and 4x Mox Opal now. Mox Opal being a slightly better Lotus Petal because it nets you a mana every turn and an extra Mox Opal in hand nets you an extra two mana one turn and 1 mana from then on.

    Seems ok to me.
    What decks are at all interested in running 4x Lotus Petal 4x Mox Opal? The decks that run the former aren't interested in the latter and the ones that run the latter aren't interested in the former.
    Posting your messages in a different font, size, or color than everyone else does not make you look smarter or cooler, it just makes you look obnoxious.
  • #129
    Quote from Lord Seth
    What decks are at all interested in running 4x Lotus Petal 4x Mox Opal? The decks that run the former aren't interested in the latter and the ones that run the latter aren't interested in the former.


    Not to nitpick, but how can you look at what was the previous status quo under the old rules and say no decks wanted this... the project forward and suggest that clearly no deck wants this under the new status quo. We don't know yet as the we have no idea how decks will adapt to this change.

    That said. Clearly not every deck wants this.

    Decks that might... Tezzarator, Affinity, and possibly a MUD build might want this.

    Note I'm not suggesting it's an auto include, just that the drawback has been greatly minimized on Mox Opal.
    "Heterological" is heterological if and only if "heterological" is autological
    [Legacy]
    ANT
    Imperial Painter
  • #130
    Quote from TheDasuri
    I really see Gaea's Cradle getting banned.


    I just don't see putting a "Discard this card and use your land drop for the turn: Untap your other Cradle" is broken or backbreaking.
    Maybe I've just been unlucky enough where every cradle deck I've played against has never had the NEED to tap a cradle twice.

    Quote from TheDasuri
    http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/

    Go for it. He apparently reads most stuff even if he doesnt respond. And while you are there check out all the damage control going on.

    Safari rules, gentlemen: Don't touch the poop!

    Quote from Plaguefather
    Could someone PM me and explain why Mox Opal suddenly becomes so busted with this rule change?! I'm just not seeing it, how is it any better than when I use Ravager to turn them into Lotus Petals? Except, this time it's mandatory sacking of one, and I get no counters on my ravager for it...


    It's a bigger problem in Modern where a Lotus Petal effect is a bannable offense.

    Quote from JPoJohnson
    WotC doesn't make money on the secondary market. This accusation has no merit.


    They do because they can reprint cards to generate sales.
    Modern masters is selling out for them because of the secondary market.
    Quote from Sparki
    Time to start brewing up Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths combo...

    Oh my god. Yes.
    This. This I will build.



    Why is no one talking about the changes to Indestructible! It's an ability now and thus works better. M14 won't be ALL bad!
    What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
  • #131
    Quote from Sparki
    Time to start brewing up Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths combo...


    Welcome to 43 Lands new win con
    Modern:
    Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
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    Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget Smile
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    Hermit Druid Combo:
    Quote from rowtheboat
    Uuuuh... Cast Hermit Druid... Untap... Win game?
    Sounds like a one card combo to me, unless you are counting lands as part of your combo
    Quote from Fizzeler
    Hermit does need to enter the battlefield somehow so you can win the game :p

    Quote from Raggedjoe
    This may be the first time "Tropical Island" has been a part of any combo. Just saying.
  • #132
    Quote from Fizzeler
    Welcome to 43 Lands new win con


    I've already been brewing. Smile There's a thread in developing started by Finn.
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  • #133
    Quote from Fizzeler
    Welcome to 43 Lands new win con


    Yeah, my Lands deck just got a new toy. Question is, what the hell do you take out? I guess maybe Mindslaver to start. That just leaves one other card. Academy Ruins maybe? I mean if we don't need the Mindslaver lock we can probably ditch Ruins.

    Thoughts?

    Modern can crash and burn for all I care

  • #134
    Some players down at the LGS noted that the door is now open for Legendary dual lands to be printed.
    All Hail the Mono-Colored. "Thank You for Playing Force of Will so I Don't Have To. Thank You for Making Blood Moon Great." Founder: Anti-Blue Alliance (Just Say "Yes" to Spells!) Down with Reactionaries!!!
  • #135
    Quote from Lormador
    Some players down at the LGS noted that the door is now open for Legendary dual lands to be printed.


    Huh. Fair point, actually. I wonder if Wizards would be bold enough to give them basic land types - otherwise they'd be useless. I doubt it would change much about the accessbility of Legacy, though, since it would still be better to run the originals + eventual legendualsies if needed.

    But it would be a start
    Playing Modern:
    Time Walk Combo
    UW Control
    Mono-U Tron
  • #136
    Quote from LordOwlingtonIII »
    Why is no one talking about the changes to Indestructible! It's an ability now and thus works better.
    I don't see how this changes anything in the broad sense. Do you mean in terms of manipulation of copying abilities or Humility or something? Can you explain it to me?
    Brainstorm Schmainstorm
  • #137
    Quote from Quicken
    Huh. Fair point, actually. I wonder if Wizards would be bold enough to give them basic land types - otherwise they'd be useless. I doubt it would change much about the accessbility of Legacy, though, since it would still be better to run the originals + eventual legendualsies if needed.

    But it would be a start


    I think it would make the format a good deal more accessible, particularly many of the decks that use Underground Sea. Most combo decks would no longer require any original duals at all, or merely 1-2. Reanimator and TES, for instance. Team America and RUG Delver would both require far smaller outlays to play.
    All Hail the Mono-Colored. "Thank You for Playing Force of Will so I Don't Have To. Thank You for Making Blood Moon Great." Founder: Anti-Blue Alliance (Just Say "Yes" to Spells!) Down with Reactionaries!!!
  • #138
    Quote from Finn
    I don't see how this changes anything in the broad sense. Do you mean in terms of manipulation of copying abilities or Humility or something? Can you explain it to me?


    Before Indestructible was just a property of the card. For example, if I cast Withstand Death on a Grizzly Bears it just would BE indestructible and Humility couldn't take that away. Now that it's an ability Humility can. Honestly the interaction matters a lot more in Standard than any other format, but it's still a good change in my opinion.


    The land drop rule is ok too. It's now closer to how we were all playing the game rather than how it actually was. I'm a bit of a rules lawyer and even I would say "Second land for the turn" instead of "using my bonus land play from Exploration/Azusa"
    What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
  • #139
    Okay right. For me, it is mostly cosmetic because there just aren't that many times in which Indestructible and Humility are orbiting my planet at the same time. By that I mean, ever.

    Anyway, thanks for clearing it all up.
    Brainstorm Schmainstorm
  • #140
    Quote from LordOwlingtonIII
    Before Indestructible was just a property of the card. For example, if I cast Withstand Death on a Grizzly Bears it just would BE indestructible and Humility couldn't take that away. Now that it's an ability Humility can.


    Bad example because effects are applied in layers and time stamp order. Adding and removing abilities is all in the same layer so you apply each in the order they came into play. Humility being a permanent with a continuous effect will generally be applied first while Withstand Death being an Instant can write over Humility giving your 1/1 Indestructible for that one turn. This is all under the new rules of course.

    Just to clarify for people who don't understand. Currently the words "Darksteel Colossus is indestructible." is NOT an ability. It functions exactly like "Dryad Arbor is Green". Currently; Humility or other "lose all ability" effects will not be able to take that away.

    I am unsure of the new rules. But mainly because i don't like having all the new cards read "Indestructibility". They didn't specify but im pretty sure they are changing the word to a noun to conform with all the other keywords. That's the only way it can have meaning as a standalone word..... a keyword. Or they can have it as "X gains indestructible" in which case they are just grammatically wrong. I don't really care about people with bad grammar on facebook or forums but im kinda OCD about my cards.
    Last edited by Rofl_Waffles: 5/25/2013 11:32:39 PM
  • #141
    I am not really fond of this change. Heck when i read the rule i instantly went "Dammit Jitte" and i also feel that it kills flavor. It also does warp the format a bit, so yeah. I am not to fond of this rule change.

    But i guess i am going to have to deal with it.
    Wield your heart, and the world will tremble!!!-Doran, the Siege Tower
    BWG

    Quote from Lormador

    The effect could prove so discombobulating to combo players, in particularly, they may fizzle and run away screaming. "From that day the Curse of the Plateau was upon me, and I found every hand I ever pull from a combo deck is a mulligan."


    Member of Anti-Blue Alliance (Just Say "Yes" to Spells!) Members: 8 known, add to your sig to join!
  • #142
    What I want to know most about this change is if anyone at wizards actually tested it for Legacy. They have said time and time again they dont test for legacy, and they talk about banning things that get too strong in the article. I dont like the sound of any of this.
  • #143
    Quote from BattleFish
    Bad example because effects are applied in layers and time stamp order. Adding and removing abilities is all in the same layer so you apply each in the order they came into play. Humility being a permanent with a continuous effect will generally be applied first while Withstand Death being an Instant can write over Humility giving your 1/1 Indestructible for that one turn. This is all under the new rules of course.

    Just to clarify for people who don't understand. Currently the words "Darksteel Colossus is indestructible." is NOT an ability. It functions exactly like "Dryad Arbor is Green". Currently; Humility or other "lose all ability" effects will not be able to take that away.


    The bolded part is wrong. Under the current rules, "Darksteel Colossus is indestructible" is an ability that can be taken away by Humility or any other card. It's treated the same as "This thing cannot be blocked by red creatures." The only part of the change that will affect Darksteel Colossus is that he'll now say "Indestructible" rather than the whole sentence. At this time, the actual state of being indestructible, however, is not an ability. So, for example, if I have an Eldrazi Monument out, and you then play Humility, I'll have 2/2 dudes without flying, but that are indestructible. The new change will allow Indestructible that's been granted by outside sources to be taken away by Humility and Humble type effects.

    I am unsure of the new rules. But mainly because i don't like having all the new cards read "Indestructibility". They didn't specify but im pretty sure they are changing the word to a noun to conform with all the other keywords. That's the only way it can have meaning as a standalone word..... a keyword. Or they can have it as "X gains indestructible" in which case they are just grammatically wrong. I don't really care about people with bad grammar on facebook or forums but im kinda OCD about my cards.


    They're making the keyword Indestructible, so some cards that grant indestructible will be a bit awkward, but in the end, it's better to avoid confusion such as happened above.
    Commander Deck:WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
  • #144
    Quote from BattleFish

    Just to clarify for people who don't understand. Currently the words "Darksteel Colossus is indestructible." is NOT an ability. It functions exactly like "Dryad Arbor is Green". Currently; Humility or other "lose all ability" effects will not be able to take that away.


    This is NOT true.

    Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
    700.4a Although the text “[This permanent] is indestructible” is an ability, actually being
    indestructible is neither an ability nor a characteristic. It’s just something that’s true about a permanent.


    The proper interaction between Humility and Darksteel Colossus is Darksteel Colossus does not have any abilities, and thus isn't granted being indestructible.

    As for Dryad Arbor, first, it now has a color-indicator and no longer has a characteristic-defining ability.
    Also, IF it had a characteristic defining ability, the way layering rules work, color-changing effects are applied before ability-adding/ability-removing effects, thus it would still BE green, but it wouldn't have the ability "[This permanent] is green."
    Edit: Nor any other abilities.
    While Humility is in play, Dryad Arbor does not have any abilities, you can't tap it for mana, and it's still green.

    Edit: Not quick enough Frown
    Last edited by Bastinator: 5/26/2013 12:27:34 PM
  • #145
    Only advantage I gain is using Liliana twice in a turn, that is FOR THE WIN.

    In all honestly though, I think the point of something being a legend is truly unique. How can there be say... two of Lebron James on the basketball court at once playing each other? Its dumb.

    I remember playing with mana burn, which i think should come back.
    Last edited by chemicalstylez: 5/26/2013 1:32:55 PM
    Current Legacy deck:
    RUG
    TNN French Delver stifle wasteland deck wins
  • #146
    Quote from chemicalstylez
    Only advantage I gain is using Liliana twice in a turn, that is FOR THE WIN.

    In all honestly though, I think the point of something being a legend is truly unique. How can there be say... two of Lebron James on the basketball court at once playing each other? Its dumb.

    I remember playing with mana burn, which i think should come back.


    But if Lebron James got Dolly-ed, how can his doppelgänger cause him to explode?

    Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
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    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
  • #147
    It makes sense with clones but not with the same legendary object. Unless we break space and time 2 jaces doesn't make sense.
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  • #148
    Quote from WeaponX
    It makes sense with clones but not with the same legendary object. Unless we break space and time 2 jaces doesn't make sense.


    You know what else doesn't make sense?

    Oozes equipped with Boots, birds carrying five swords, and Avacyn dying to a Tragic Slip down the stairs.

    At some point, flavor must die to gameplay.
    If you wish to get a hold of me:
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  • #149
    Now when a player sits down to play with you, he can be loyal to both of you. Kinda like how in real magic you play politics in a three-player game.
    Flavorfully the decision works for planeswalkers.
    What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
  • #150
    These are my flavour attempts to deal with the new legend and walker rules:

    Legend Rule
    All legends come with a Clone posse. This somehow includes lands (sister cities?). You can summon a legend again to...uh...refresh it.

    Walker Rule
    You may call on a walker with the same name as one you've already summoned. If you do, that walker pulls out the respective spellbook, resets his/her loyalty to you according to that spellbook, and readies him/herself to cast another spell from the new spellbook.

    A walker summoned by 2+ players goes to that player whenever that player's turn comes up. All other players get...uh..."doubles" of that walker when it's not their turn. (Jace's double is an illusion that resembles him. Ironically, the most powerful walkers assign mooks with signs as their "doubles".)
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