Agreed. I for one do not like it but Im just one man I suppose. I thought being legendary was supposed to be a downside to being an undercosted powerful card... Now? EVERYBODY GETS ONE!
Who the heck will win the Jace war now--the guy who starts +2'ing first or the guy who keeps Brainstorming? The Fatesealer will ult significantly faster, but the Brainstormer can draw into harder-to-counter SFMs, Tiagos, and Entreat the Angels fairly fast...
So how do we kill jittes now? pack krosan grips, disenchants? The old way of doing it was just get your own jitte to stop the opponents.
This will be a pain. There were quite a few decks that ran 3-4 Stoneforge Mystic to nab a Jitte for the sole purpose of dealing with an opposing Jitte... Which I used in Affinity quite a bit. Oh well, we lose that main deck way to deal with it, but we gain better use of Mox Opal.
I do agree that a TON of other interactions are going to change the face of Legacy. The format is going to be turned upside down with these changes.
People use clone effects to stop show and tell decks.
Now you can both plop down griselbrands and emrukhal. and guess what? Who gets to untap first after show and tell?
Yes they do use clone effects. Or innocent blood. Or swords to plowshares. I don't really see a lot of decks using clone effects... hm. You know what else stops Show and tell? Force of will. Counterspell. Thoughtseize. Cabal Therapy.
Stifle and Wasteland say hello. And I don't want to be jamming a bunch of bad cards into a deck. Yes goyf can get countered. But its good on its own and makes the control player have to fight your beatdown and combo plans.
Before the rules change, using Stage to copy Depths would result in both dying before the Stage checked for counters and auto-sac'd to give you a Marit Lage. Now, you can just sac the REAL Depths and the Stage (with no counters) will live long enough for counters to be checked, resulting in a dead Stage and a Marit Lage.
So, basically, you're still "legend-ruling yourself" in the sense that both lands die (if you let the Stage die to the new legend rule, it never checks for counters and dies before spawning a Marit Lage). You just get a 20/20 out of it.
Meh, I don't see it. You're using land drops to produce no mana (Depths), you're double-Wastelanding yourself (and spending 2 additional mana) to make a token that can be bounced or exiled and doesn't have protection from any of the spells that do this, a Wasteland is itself a counter for your whole combo ... seems very, very weak to cards that a LOT of people play (Swords to Plowshares, JTMS, Wasteland) and takes a lot of time to set up without turbo-ing your land drops with Exploration, which neither of your combo lands even casts in the first place. Color me skeptical.
In other news, both players are allowed to have Jittes and Jaces. The sky is falling, I guess. (As a Maverick player I welcome this news, since my Karakas will never be split-second Wastelanded by my opponent's land drop and my Jitte will never be killed for 2 colorless mana in game 1.)
I was honestly just joking about the depths + stage combo. I was just pointing it out that it worked with the new rules.
Its hard to interact with, especially with pithing needles naming wasteland that can be cast off of thespian stages.
Quote from pittplayer »
Yes they do use clone effects. Or innocent blood. Or swords to plowshares. I don't really see a lot of decks using clone effects... hm. You know what else stops Show and tell? Force of will. Counterspell. Thoughtseize. Cabal Therapy.
The biggest deal is when it comes to legendary permanents that arent creatures. How many decks play karakas just to pop opposing ones? What about dealing with Jittes?
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Can't say I'm an immediate fan of the legend rule change, but I'll reserve judgment until I actually get to play with it. Wizards has a track record of introducing change that was met with tons of friction but was gradually accepted (except the God-awful Reserved List) so I'm optimistic that this will actually make gameplay better.
I just hope that this doesn't result in Show and Tell getting the axe because hate against it got weaker. Also, I may need to run actual Detention Spheres and Oblivion Rings in my Jace deck sideboards because regular Jaces (especially Jace Beleren, which probably won't be used as a Legacy sideboard card anymore) no longer function as "destroy target Jace" cards. Don't even get me started on Umezawa's Jitte mirrors.
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Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy:UR Sneak and Show IUBG Team America IX Metalworker MUD Modern:UBR Blue Jund IWBX Eldrazi Processors IX Affinity IWRG Nacatl Burn IGR Tron IUBR Grishoalbrand
Clone effects as used to kill Griselbrand or Emrakul... that's basically only Merfolk that's doing that. Or MUD with Duplicant or Phyrexian Metamorph. Most everyone is using Angel of Despair, Venser, Shaper Savant, or Oblivion Ring anyway since they have more reach and utility than just legend-ruling something. No one stops an Omniscience by legend-ruling it.
The major reason is the mirror match becomes absolutely awful now. Both players drop an Emrakul, who loses? The guy who cast Show and Tell. The other guy gets to untap and attack first instead of the legend rule killing both. Id guess the guy who untaps with Griselbrand probably wins too as he gets the first access to mana.
The clone part is really only for Merfolk, and as stated, Gilded Drake should be a fine replacement, and clones never worked with it anyways. The ways Show and Tell permanents are interacted with are still viable. Oblivion Ring, Venser, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.
Im more worried about things already stated. Dealing with opposing Jitte's by running your own. Some decks get quite wrecked by an active Jitte, and relied on the Legend Rule to deal with it. I enjoy Affinity, and while it may be a Tier 1.5 deck, an active Jitte kind of wrecks it (Mostly 1 toughness creatures). Enough that most Affinity players run 3 SFM and a Jitte to counter it.
Gaea's Cradle is a lesser, as you have to have two in hand for it to matter. Crop Rotation already happens, so it's not like we've never seen multiple Cradle's used in the same turn. This just makes using double Cradle more consistent, as you can run more without worrying about it being a dead card in hand.
It will definitely shake things up, that's for sure.
Just so I understand.... If I have a Cradle in play tap it for Mana, and play a Second Cradle and let the first Tapped Cradle die, I can then tap the Second Cradle for mana too...
=(
Also I hate when changes throw whole formats under the bus, but I expect numerous decks to stop existing... Also (D&T just got a ton stronger)
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Huh? I don't see how this is a combo... what am I missing?
This will be a pain. There were quite a few decks that ran 3-4 Stoneforge Mystic to nab a Jitte for the sole purpose of dealing with an opposing Jitte... Which I used in Affinity quite a bit. Oh well, we lose that main deck way to deal with it, but we gain better use of Mox Opal.
I do agree that a TON of other interactions are going to change the face of Legacy. The format is going to be turned upside down with these changes.
This change is going to change nothing. It just some small tweeks. Calm down.
Thespian doesn't copy dark depths with the counters on it.
in other words, no counters on your copy of the dark depths.
You are so so wrong.
People use clone effects to stop show and tell decks.
Now you can both plop down griselbrands and emrukhal. and guess what? Who gets to untap first after show and tell?
I would rather play b/g with goyf, bob, and hexmage. Aggro and combo.
Stage copies the depths, then due to it not having any counters it dies and you get a Marit Lage.
land drops are uncounterable.
Hopefully no one gets to untap
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Yes they do use clone effects. Or innocent blood. Or swords to plowshares. I don't really see a lot of decks using clone effects... hm. You know what else stops Show and tell? Force of will. Counterspell. Thoughtseize. Cabal Therapy.
Stifle and Wasteland say hello. And I don't want to be jamming a bunch of bad cards into a deck. Yes goyf can get countered. But its good on its own and makes the control player have to fight your beatdown and combo plans.
Before the rules change, using Stage to copy Depths would result in both dying before the Stage checked for counters and auto-sac'd to give you a Marit Lage. Now, you can just sac the REAL Depths and the Stage (with no counters) will live long enough for counters to be checked, resulting in a dead Stage and a Marit Lage.
So, basically, you're still "legend-ruling yourself" in the sense that both lands die (if you let the Stage die to the new legend rule, it never checks for counters and dies before spawning a Marit Lage). You just get a 20/20 out of it.
Meh, I don't see it. You're using land drops to produce no mana (Depths), you're double-Wastelanding yourself (and spending 2 additional mana) to make a token that can be bounced or exiled and doesn't have protection from any of the spells that do this, a Wasteland is itself a counter for your whole combo ... seems very, very weak to cards that a LOT of people play (Swords to Plowshares, JTMS, Wasteland) and takes a lot of time to set up without turbo-ing your land drops with Exploration, which neither of your combo lands even casts in the first place. Color me skeptical.
In other news, both players are allowed to have Jittes and Jaces. The sky is falling, I guess. (As a Maverick player I welcome this news, since my Karakas will never be split-second Wastelanded by my opponent's land drop and my Jitte will never be killed for 2 colorless mana in game 1.)
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
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Already one of the most played, powerful, combo decks with a history of mediocre hate against it, now the hate against it is even worse.
Well done wotc you really don't give a **** about legacy do you?
Its hard to interact with, especially with pithing needles naming wasteland that can be cast off of thespian stages.
The biggest deal is when it comes to legendary permanents that arent creatures. How many decks play karakas just to pop opposing ones? What about dealing with Jittes?
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
I don't have any idea how you can conclude this.
I just hope that this doesn't result in Show and Tell getting the axe because hate against it got weaker. Also, I may need to run actual Detention Spheres and Oblivion Rings in my Jace deck sideboards because regular Jaces (especially Jace Beleren, which probably won't be used as a Legacy sideboard card anymore) no longer function as "destroy target Jace" cards. Don't even get me started on Umezawa's Jitte mirrors.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand
The major reason is the mirror match becomes absolutely awful now. Both players drop an Emrakul, who loses? The guy who cast Show and Tell. The other guy gets to untap and attack first instead of the legend rule killing both. Id guess the guy who untaps with Griselbrand probably wins too as he gets the first access to mana.
The clone part is really only for Merfolk, and as stated, Gilded Drake should be a fine replacement, and clones never worked with it anyways. The ways Show and Tell permanents are interacted with are still viable. Oblivion Ring, Venser, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.
Im more worried about things already stated. Dealing with opposing Jitte's by running your own. Some decks get quite wrecked by an active Jitte, and relied on the Legend Rule to deal with it. I enjoy Affinity, and while it may be a Tier 1.5 deck, an active Jitte kind of wrecks it (Mostly 1 toughness creatures). Enough that most Affinity players run 3 SFM and a Jitte to counter it.
Gaea's Cradle is a lesser, as you have to have two in hand for it to matter. Crop Rotation already happens, so it's not like we've never seen multiple Cradle's used in the same turn. This just makes using double Cradle more consistent, as you can run more without worrying about it being a dead card in hand.
It will definitely shake things up, that's for sure.
=(
Also I hate when changes throw whole formats under the bus, but I expect numerous decks to stop existing... Also (D&T just got a ton stronger)
[Legacy]
ANT
Imperial Painter