Taking after standard's thread, please keep all talk about the cost of Legacy cards and/or the availability of cards here. Reprint policy, general economics, duals, overnight rise in prices is all fair game.
Note: Threads and rants breaking down into the price of Legacy outside of this thread in these forums will be infracted. If people need to complain, please do us a favor and keep it here.
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
i will be the first one to complain! Tarmogoyf! @#*&%$^%$! when will the price be lower than the price it has today? its out of extended so why is the price still not lowered? or am i not updated?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
i will be the first one to complain! Tarmogoyf! @#*&%$^%$! when will the price be lower than the price it has today? its out of extended so why is the price still not lowered? or am i not updated?
It won't go any lower unless they reprint the card in an upcoming set (which probably won't happen).
Speaking of Extended, when WOTC decided to change the format from 7 sets to 4, the price of Goyf went from 90$ to 45$ overnight.
It's slowly climbing back up to the old price unless something is done.
Honestly, i feel like legacy pricing is not as big a problem compared to Standard. We have many months to put together a deck; putting away 10-30 dollars a month usually allows you to get a play set of something in the near future. In Standard, we have the problem of the format changing in a single week.
It's very nice being able to spread out the cost of your cards over as long as you need.
You don't really have that luxury in Standard.
If I really need a card I can just save up for a month or two and get a playset of it. Not having to really worry about the price going down is also nice because it makes buying a card more of an investment than a purchase.
Honestly, i feel like legacy pricing is not as big a problem compared to Standard. We have many months to put together a deck; putting away 10-30 dollars a month usually allows you to get a play set of something in the near future. In Standard, we have the problem of the format changing in a single week.
The problem isn't for the people that have most of the staples (i.e. Goyf, Wasteland, Duals, FoW), it's more for the people who are interested in the format but are priced out of it (so they wind up playing Dredge, Affinity or Burn).
Ya, I agree with everyone here that even though it's more expensive to get into, being able to save for weeks or months for the cards you want is a luxury over Standard, as we don't have to worry about buying new cards that will rotate in 8 months to a year.
Plus I have most of what I need so I'm not complaining.
i will be the first one to complain! Tarmogoyf! @#*&%$^%$! when will the price be lower than the price it has today? its out of extended so why is the price still not lowered? or am i not updated?
lol... wait until Overextended kicks into gear...
I'm still waiting for Juzám Djinn to climb down and so far he hasnt... he isnt that good of a creature anymore and the price still hasnt fallen.
It's a good thing I own 1 Juzám Djinn too bad I'll never own 3 more...
I dont think his collectors value is worth 120 to 175 dollars because in a sense he's worth 2 duals... would anybody trade 2 duals for a Juzám Djinn? Seriously how much do you think the guy is worth?
And truthfully I have seen cards that was seemed good at the time worth something and later become worthless... Balduvian Horde was consider the next Juzám Djinn and the card jumped to 30 dollars... today... 49 cents.
Out of curiosity, did the prices of the cards in ftv (like aether vial or mox diamond) go down when it was released? Because if they weren't, then it seems the only way to lower the prices are reprints. Honestly they should reprint half the duals in one core set when the fetches rotate out, and the rest in the next. I don't think it will mess up standard too much and people will actually be able to get the cards that are most difficult to get but essential for almost all legacy decks. Then maybe reprint legacy staples like bob every couple sets.
I personally dont think legacy is so expensive. Cards dont rotate out of legacy, they only get banned.
Take standard, lets say you buy a 4 off card for lets say $ 20 a piece... that makes 80$. You get to play with it for a bit over a year, if the deck isnt updated and the card isnt dropped... if the card/deck is dropped, or because of a new card became bad or so, the card wont be played and drop in value. You dont play the card anymore, and if you want to sell it, the card lost its value.
Now, lets say you bought a legacy card with that money, a staple one... A legacy staple mostly holds its value, it might drop a bit, but never a lot... if you want to trade that card away with someone you can easily do that, and get another card in return.
Point is, there is no need to be upset due to the high values of legacy. Legacy is a format that a lot of people play, and will keep playing in the future.
If you want to buy a card, buy it, and dont be afraid that you dropped your money in a bottemless pit. (im talking about the staples)...
Outside the staples you have lots of cards that are replacable. ok, it may become subpar then, but its still possible. Duals... why not run shocklands? fetch at end of opponents turn, let it come into play tapped, no lifeloss nothing. just keep a real dual in case you need the mana... problem solved... savings on 3 duals about $100,- ?
For whatever reason, last night while I was trying to sleep (it was miserably hot) I was lying in bed and just started thinking about T1.5 and one of the things I thought about was the possibility that Legacy could eventually morph into something resembling Vintage.
When I first began to play MtG, Vintage immediately jumped out at me as a really fun format, but not only have I never played a real game of competitive Vintage, I've never met anyone who was a serious Vintage player that played the format often. (this, of course, does not mean these people don't exist, I just haven't met them)
Beyond the fact that there isn't much of a playerbase for Vintage, the cost to build a single deck in Vintage is so insanely high that I could never justify making the $5-$8k plunge for a single, competitive deck.
With regards to Legacy, the format itself is somewhat expensive to get into (people always seem blown away when I explain that Legacy is actually cheaper than Standard long term) but with a modicum of dedication, you can easily build a legit deck if you're willing to save up here and there and not try to buy everything up at once.
That said, we've all seen the recent price spike for T1.5 staples that has seen stalwarts like Force of Will, Underground Sea and Wasteland double and triple in price in less than six months. Personally, I think we're in a bubble market and prices are going to stabilize at around 10-20 percent of the pre-bubble costs. Although, if I'm wrong and we now live in a world of $80-90 Wastelands, $100 Force of Wills, and $120 Underground Sea's, I think the format may event up potentially collapsing in on itself.
If we get to the point where a solid manabase runs to over $1000, I just don't see how new players will be willing to get into the format in any meaningful way. I firmly believe it's the best for all involved (players, store owners, WotC) to have multiple healthy, diverse formats opposed to just T2, (which is "the best deck and the rest") limited, (which is hard to define in meta-terms as a format) the rotting corpse of Extended, (what a sad mess) and the two Eternal formats of Legacy and Vintage that are priced out beyond new players and are only played by a core group of die-hards.
Mind you, I'm not saying Legacy is anywhere near Vintage currently, and it may be wrong to kvetch about a format that's never been stronger, but I honestly think the price of staples is a real issue.
I'm curious if others have thought about this or if everyone thinks I'm just crazy.
I think the problem with proxies is that it subtly undermines the format. Even though 95% of Vintage tournaments allow proxies for the P10, I think there are a lot of people who hate the idea of playing actual tournament games with Drudge Skeletons marked as Time Walks and Black Lotus'. Thankfully, the only Legacy card that I can think of off the top of my head that is nearly impossible to find real copies of is Candelabra of Tawnos. $1000 a playset is bad enough, but I've read that there are only 3000 playsets in existence, which makes it damned near impossible to find even if you had the cash.
Beyond that, being able to actually *own* all the pieces of a deck make you more involved in the format.
@The Grand Inquisitor: I merged your thread with the stickied one. Please use the search function to see if a thread on the topic exists next time. Thanks
I still can't see why Wizards so forcefully maintains the Reserved List. I can understand that there were rocky times years back, but most people agree that the list itself is degenerative to the health of the eternal formats. Truth be told, even if they give a hoot to the collectors that stockpile playsets of duals, complete sets of the Beta, and the guys holding a playset of Black Lotus in their bank vaults, why is it not a good marketing endeavor to wither release staples in controlled bursts so that the format could support the booms we've been having and to help diminish the absurd price bursts of recent? The worst part of the whole issue with the staples is that we have to compete with hoarders, Vintage, Commander, and casual players in a single market for the same products at a fixed volume set years back when the game was just beginning, which is absurd with how many play it now. Ok, done with that rant
Seriously though, who wants the reserved list anymore? I'm not speaking of flooding the market with a massive amount of stock so that the game becomes worthless, but who wants to drop a new computers / TV worth of money for a deck?
I own a significant number of Legacy staples and would welcome new printings of any of them, because that would mean I'd actually get to play with my cards. Screw the collectors, Magic is a game.
I own a significant number of Legacy staples and would welcome new printings of any of them, because that would mean I'd actually get to play with my cards. Screw the collectors, Magic is a game.
This.
I'm a player. I own the Legacy staples I need. If they dip in price a bit because they reprint some of them, so be it, I can pick up the new ones as well, for cheaper none the less.
...thinking about T1.5 and one of the things I thought about was the possibility that Legacy could eventually morph into something resembling Vintage.
At its core, that's kind of what's going on throughout magic. Legacy in general is trending this way because of inevitability, whereas standard you always have the potential to bring in new cards, lower prices, change things up, etc....older formats are victim to inevitability and collapse over time.
...That said, we've all seen the recent price spike for T1.5 staples that has seen stalwarts like Force of Will, Underground Sea and Wasteland double and triple in price in less than six months. Personally, I think we're in a bubble market and prices are going to stabilize at around 10-20 percent of the pre-bubble costs. Although, if I'm wrong and we now live in a world of $80-90 Wastelands, $100 Force of Wills, and $120 Underground Sea's, I think the format may event up potentially collapsing in on itself.
If we get to the point where a solid manabase runs to over $1000, I just don't see how new players will be willing to get into the format in any meaningful way. I firmly believe it's the best for all involved (players, store owners, WotC) to have multiple healthy, diverse formats opposed to just T2, (which is "the best deck and the rest") limited, (which is hard to define in meta-terms as a format) the rotting corpse of Extended, (what a sad mess) and the two Eternal formats of Legacy and Vintage that are priced out beyond new players and are only played by a core group of die-hards.
So much going on here...
1. At first I would agree with you about the bubble market and hopes of prices trending down a considerable %, but the truth of the matter is that most of these cards are victim to pent up demand. SCG and other major stores hold the cards like stock, driving price up based on some literal demand ("legacy is getting more and more popular") and fictitious demand ("everyone wants card X so now it's $$$"). I can't see prices going back down to $30 dual lands which was only 2 years ago. Hell, 6 months ago you had Underground Sea at 75-80. It's 120+ at the moment.
2. Increase in large-scale events doesn't help #1. From GP's to SCG 5K's demand trends upward, "justifying" high prices. Unless these cards see some kind of a mass reprint (not even talking reserved list, but solidcards too) you can expect $100+/ea for staples.
3. As for $1000 manabases, we're pretty much there. A 3 color deck with wastelands is roughly 1000. Consider how U-based duals are already ~100/ea + non-U duals are ~60-70/ea + fetchlands are $15-35 a pop for the lowest one, 5 duals + 4 fetch is already more than half way.
...I'm curious if others have thought about this or if everyone thinks I'm just crazy.
Personally I only own a small handful of cards + my deck. The trending of prices turned me off from buying more staples. I kick myself for not having the cash on hand to buy duals at 40 and 50 a pop because now they're multiples of that. With that being said, I have no problem pulling out of competitive magic as soon as tomorrow -- if the price were right. For those of us who played the format for a while (several years+), we've made a tremendous profit in terms of raw cash. I have my indicators/ballpark price to pull out with....I'm just waiting for it to get there. I might even switch decks and sit on those cards to rise.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Note: Threads and rants breaking down into the price of Legacy outside of this thread in these forums will be infracted. If people need to complain, please do us a favor and keep it here.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
It won't go any lower unless they reprint the card in an upcoming set (which probably won't happen).
Speaking of Extended, when WOTC decided to change the format from 7 sets to 4, the price of Goyf went from 90$ to 45$ overnight.
It's slowly climbing back up to the old price unless something is done.
Like, why can't they just print Snow Duals? Wouldn't that circumvent the reprint policy?
You don't really have that luxury in Standard.
If I really need a card I can just save up for a month or two and get a playset of it. Not having to really worry about the price going down is also nice because it makes buying a card more of an investment than a purchase.
The problem isn't for the people that have most of the staples (i.e. Goyf, Wasteland, Duals, FoW), it's more for the people who are interested in the format but are priced out of it (so they wind up playing Dredge, Affinity or Burn).
Coffee anyone?
I'm not digging the sarcasm. Rules still exist in this thread. Spam warning. - Warden
Plus I have most of what I need so I'm not complaining.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
lol... wait until Overextended kicks into gear...
I'm still waiting for Juzám Djinn to climb down and so far he hasnt... he isnt that good of a creature anymore and the price still hasnt fallen.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Arabian Nights and Legends cards will never come down in price, not unless they see a reprinting (which he won't)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
The only reason he's above 150$ is because he's a collector's item more than anything.
He costs about 180$ for the same reason a beta Birds Of Paradise costs 170$.
I dont think his collectors value is worth 120 to 175 dollars because in a sense he's worth 2 duals... would anybody trade 2 duals for a Juzám Djinn? Seriously how much do you think the guy is worth?
And truthfully I have seen cards that was seemed good at the time worth something and later become worthless... Balduvian Horde was consider the next Juzám Djinn and the card jumped to 30 dollars... today... 49 cents.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Take standard, lets say you buy a 4 off card for lets say $ 20 a piece... that makes 80$. You get to play with it for a bit over a year, if the deck isnt updated and the card isnt dropped... if the card/deck is dropped, or because of a new card became bad or so, the card wont be played and drop in value. You dont play the card anymore, and if you want to sell it, the card lost its value.
Now, lets say you bought a legacy card with that money, a staple one... A legacy staple mostly holds its value, it might drop a bit, but never a lot... if you want to trade that card away with someone you can easily do that, and get another card in return.
Point is, there is no need to be upset due to the high values of legacy. Legacy is a format that a lot of people play, and will keep playing in the future.
If you want to buy a card, buy it, and dont be afraid that you dropped your money in a bottemless pit. (im talking about the staples)...
Outside the staples you have lots of cards that are replacable. ok, it may become subpar then, but its still possible. Duals... why not run shocklands? fetch at end of opponents turn, let it come into play tapped, no lifeloss nothing. just keep a real dual in case you need the mana... problem solved... savings on 3 duals about $100,- ?
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
When I first began to play MtG, Vintage immediately jumped out at me as a really fun format, but not only have I never played a real game of competitive Vintage, I've never met anyone who was a serious Vintage player that played the format often. (this, of course, does not mean these people don't exist, I just haven't met them)
Beyond the fact that there isn't much of a playerbase for Vintage, the cost to build a single deck in Vintage is so insanely high that I could never justify making the $5-$8k plunge for a single, competitive deck.
With regards to Legacy, the format itself is somewhat expensive to get into (people always seem blown away when I explain that Legacy is actually cheaper than Standard long term) but with a modicum of dedication, you can easily build a legit deck if you're willing to save up here and there and not try to buy everything up at once.
That said, we've all seen the recent price spike for T1.5 staples that has seen stalwarts like Force of Will, Underground Sea and Wasteland double and triple in price in less than six months. Personally, I think we're in a bubble market and prices are going to stabilize at around 10-20 percent of the pre-bubble costs. Although, if I'm wrong and we now live in a world of $80-90 Wastelands, $100 Force of Wills, and $120 Underground Sea's, I think the format may event up potentially collapsing in on itself.
If we get to the point where a solid manabase runs to over $1000, I just don't see how new players will be willing to get into the format in any meaningful way. I firmly believe it's the best for all involved (players, store owners, WotC) to have multiple healthy, diverse formats opposed to just T2, (which is "the best deck and the rest") limited, (which is hard to define in meta-terms as a format) the rotting corpse of Extended, (what a sad mess) and the two Eternal formats of Legacy and Vintage that are priced out beyond new players and are only played by a core group of die-hards.
Mind you, I'm not saying Legacy is anywhere near Vintage currently, and it may be wrong to kvetch about a format that's never been stronger, but I honestly think the price of staples is a real issue.
I'm curious if others have thought about this or if everyone thinks I'm just crazy.
it'll just destroy the individual sellers.
Beyond that, being able to actually *own* all the pieces of a deck make you more involved in the format.
FoW is not on the list, and can see some sort of reprint. However, dual lands won't, and the price will eventually chole the format.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Seriously though, who wants the reserved list anymore? I'm not speaking of flooding the market with a massive amount of stock so that the game becomes worthless, but who wants to drop a new computers / TV worth of money for a deck?
Standard:
:symr:/:symg: Valakut 2.0 (Wolf Run Green)
Legacy:
:symr:/:symb: Vial Goblins
:symr:/:symg:/:symw: Zoo
:symg:/:symw:/:symr: Maverick
Commander:
:symg:/:symb:/:symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain
This.
I'm a player. I own the Legacy staples I need. If they dip in price a bit because they reprint some of them, so be it, I can pick up the new ones as well, for cheaper none the less.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
At its core, that's kind of what's going on throughout magic. Legacy in general is trending this way because of inevitability, whereas standard you always have the potential to bring in new cards, lower prices, change things up, etc....older formats are victim to inevitability and collapse over time.
So much going on here...
1. At first I would agree with you about the bubble market and hopes of prices trending down a considerable %, but the truth of the matter is that most of these cards are victim to pent up demand. SCG and other major stores hold the cards like stock, driving price up based on some literal demand ("legacy is getting more and more popular") and fictitious demand ("everyone wants card X so now it's $$$"). I can't see prices going back down to $30 dual lands which was only 2 years ago. Hell, 6 months ago you had Underground Sea at 75-80. It's 120+ at the moment.
2. Increase in large-scale events doesn't help #1. From GP's to SCG 5K's demand trends upward, "justifying" high prices. Unless these cards see some kind of a mass reprint (not even talking reserved list, but solid cards too) you can expect $100+/ea for staples.
3. As for $1000 manabases, we're pretty much there. A 3 color deck with wastelands is roughly 1000. Consider how U-based duals are already ~100/ea + non-U duals are ~60-70/ea + fetchlands are $15-35 a pop for the lowest one, 5 duals + 4 fetch is already more than half way.
Personally I only own a small handful of cards + my deck. The trending of prices turned me off from buying more staples. I kick myself for not having the cash on hand to buy duals at 40 and 50 a pop because now they're multiples of that. With that being said, I have no problem pulling out of competitive magic as soon as tomorrow -- if the price were right. For those of us who played the format for a while (several years+), we've made a tremendous profit in terms of raw cash. I have my indicators/ballpark price to pull out with....I'm just waiting for it to get there. I might even switch decks and sit on those cards to rise.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod