Mono-black is quite possibly the least viable mono-color. Blue has Merfolk and Omni-Tell, White has Death and Taxes and Eldrazi Taxes, Red has Burn, Goblins, and Sneak Stompy (none of which are great, mind you), and Green has Elves (though Elves almost exclusively splashes Black for Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman activations, and discard from the board).
Off the top of my head, the only competitive deck featuring Welder is Painter. It's not abusing it in the cheat in big creatures sense, but it has plenty of tricks that can be used to end a game. RW and mono-R are the most common flavors, but there's a more all-in UR version that pops up from time to time as well. There are a few other fringe decks that make use of Welder, but I wouldn't call any of them competitive and I don't think any of them are cheating big creatures.
If you're after big creatures and Welder, you're either looking at a red MUD variant or brewing something up yourself.
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I used to play a big red deck like that. Metalworkers, 3sphere, etc. And so did a lot of people. I seemed to be the minoritybthat was promoting welder in the deck.
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I mostly play modern, but I am looking to try my hand at legacy. I took my mono green stompy and added Jungle Lion to it, but I feel like it's not enough. Are there any good green aggro or midrange decks I could get into and not spend a bunch of money?
You can look into the old 10 land stompy style lists (which it sounds like you have, if you're adding Jungle Lion) but those have mostly been supplanted by infect. Stompy in legacy usually refers to something somewhere between a prison deck and an aggro deck, so you can also look at those. Eldrazi has more or less established itself as the best of those, but most of the colored ones still have their fans. Sylvan plug is the last green variant I saw. I don't think that MTGS has a thread for it, but you should be able to find information on it easily enough. There's probably some kind of green stompy list in spooky's budget primer too.
What level are you trying to play at, what's your budget like, what cards do you already have? The more information you give, the better the answers are going to be. "Not spend a bunch of money" is pretty nebulous.
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You could probably try 12 post. You can get away without some of the pricier option available to the deck. Primeval titan and the 12 posts should be your starting point and then you can ramp into eldrazi. The blue splash adds a bit as well.
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Nic Fit is not a tier 1, but it is still a competitive deck. There are so many options to the deck in building phase, so you have to know your meta and your opponents' decks, since you are casting blind Cabal Therapies and have your deck full of silver bullets that you tutor with Green Sun's Zenith. "Do I want to run Punishing Fire?" "What about adding Valakuth and Scapeshift for extra wincon?" "How about junk version with Siege Rhino beats?"
I don't think there are that many budget options for Miracles, since you kinda need Jaces, duals, FoWs and Snapcasters for it to be competitive enough. Pure control deck kind of needs all the tools to be able to stand against more linear decks.
Death and Taxes is the best blade deck, if you consider that a blade deck. For stoneblade and deathblade decks, I think they are equally viable even pre-board since it seems to be just a matter of taste which threats you prefer. And how high you value Deathrite Shaman as a card.
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Modern: BRG Griselbrand reanimator, BUR Grixis Control, UR Blue moon (with Possibility Storm sometimes) Legacy: BU Reanimator, BU Omni-tell, BUW Tin Fins, BUR ANT / TES, <> Eldrazi Stompy
I went to a legacy even and used a deck from a friend.. i went 4-1 went finals and lost to miracles due to no exp. Against it. His deck wich i used was rg lands deck. Is it a strong deck in a large tourny? I already traded my ur delver with fetch duals for a tabernacle in very good shape no nics etc.. if rg lands isnt good enough how about loam pox?
If you want my opinion, don't worry about whether other people think your deck is 'good enough.' Spending money doesn't necessarily make you a better MTG player or deckbuilder. Your deck is good enough if it wins. Both Lands and BG Pox will win at the top levels of competition, and my guess is that neither of them are 'fad' decks. If you can afford to do either of them- and do them well- I'd just play the deck that you're most excited about playing and matches what you're good at and like to do in gameplay. I'm a fan of Pox, personally. If I was spending that much money on a deck, and was that serious about playing competitively, I'd try to pick one that has a reputation as being more complicated and difficult to pilot, one that you'll keep getting better at playing with for a while. If you really can't make up your mind you could try to brew some sort of hybrid deck. You probably wouldn't win as often as with 'pure' loam pox or 'pure' lands, but I think playing with a deck that feels like 'yours' is more fun. The more fun you're having, and the more you like your deck, the better you'll probably play it. It also depends on the meta you play in. If everyone at your card shop plays Blood Moon, Lands is probably a bad choice. The further your deck is from the mainstream, the less prepared people will be to go against you.
If you want my opinion, don't worry about whether other people think your deck is 'good enough.' Spending money doesn't necessarily make you a better MTG player or deckbuilder. Your deck is good enough if it wins. Both Lands and BG Pox will win at the top levels of competition, and my guess is that neither of them are 'fad' decks. If you can afford to do either of them- and do them well- I'd just play the deck that you're most excited about playing and matches what you're good at and like to do in gameplay. I'm a fan of Pox, personally. If I was spending that much money on a deck, and was that serious about playing competitively, I'd try to pick one that has a reputation as being more complicated and difficult to pilot, one that you'll keep getting better at playing with for a while. If you really can't make up your mind you could try to brew some sort of hybrid deck. You probably wouldn't win as often as with 'pure' loam pox or 'pure' lands, but I think playing with a deck that feels like 'yours' is more fun. The more fun you're having, and the more you like your deck, the better you'll probably play it. It also depends on the meta you play in. If everyone at your card shop plays Blood Moon, Lands is probably a bad choice. The further your deck is from the mainstream, the less prepared people will be to go against you.
Lands has been doing well in high level play for a while now. Stage/Depths giving it a fast win con to cap an excellent grindy gameplan was exactly what it needed. I'm not sure when I last saw pox do well at anything higher than a weekly, though keep in mind I don't go looking for pox finishes. That's not a reason not to build a deck (I've played plenty of pet decks that don't see regular success at high levels), but it is something anyone buying in should be aware of. This is especially true because a lot of the pox pieces don't see much play in other decks. The deck has been around for basically forever and pretty much every legacy player is aware of it. If the deck isn't seeing success on a large scale, there's some flaw in the deck, metagame factor, or external factor holding it back somewhere. Again, not a reason to not play a deck. Legacy rewards knowing your deck and the meta more than most formats and if pox is your deck, you do you. Just be aware that you may not excel right off the bat with pox.
Not a fan of combo or aggro decks, so it follows that I'm in love with Shardless BUG.
Any reason not to buy into it?
If you want to play legacy and can afford the deck, it's a solid one. It also has a lot of pieces that fit into other decks if you decide to branch out.
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Well, I already have all the cards that transition into Modern (Liliana, Goyf), so that helps a little bit. Mostly worried about whether there will be enough occasions to play Legacy, period.
Well, I already have all the cards that transition into Modern (Liliana, Goyf), so that helps a little bit. Mostly worried about whether there will be enough occasions to play Legacy, period.
That's a whole other question and you're not going to get nearly as much help from a forum on that one. I will say that legacy is much more community driven than modern or standard at this point in time. If your LGS isn't supporting it, you can look for local Facebook groups or check out some of the resources here or on the source to find places to play. There are also numerous stories of people cultivating local legacy scenes, so there's a chance you can make your own opportunities if they don't already exist.
If you just want a deck to play when there are large tournaments in your area you may want to weigh the cost and benefit of shelling out for duals and the like. It's a great format with a great community (at least in my experience), but the opportunities to play don't fall into your lap as often as modern or standard.
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I'm leaning towards grixis/bug delver or castlevania. Essentially goodstuff.dec.
And since you are saying you have a knowledge of the format I have to suggest my baby, parfait. Knowledge of the format is the biggest asset to the deck.
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I've been playing LED-Dredge (and Storm variants) for the past year and looking for another deck.
Got pretty consistent results with Dredge (27 wins, 11 losses, 2 draws in Competitive REL) - which is cool - but I think I've pretty much reached a "glass ceiling" where my results depend merely on whether my opponents finds their hate, which disappoints me.
This was my first year in Legacy, and playing the deck helped me to find out what my strengths and weaknesses are.
I'm looking for a good deck (Tiers 1 to 2.5) that fits my playstyle and allows me to really play Magic more often than not (which is not the case with Dredge or Storm in the current metagame). No "budget" issue, just eager to find something fitting with most of the points below.
What I'm good at :
Executing a correct succession of actions (kinda akin to Storm where you're basically executing a chain of spells into Tendrils of Agony).
Guessing what is in my opponent's hand (decent at blindly casting Cabal Therapy, for example)
Keeping mentally track of a lot of things at the same time (triggers, mana, storm count, cards in my opponent's hand, etc.)
Knowing precisely the Legacy metagame
Knowing the Comprehensive Rules and the Infraction Procedure Guide quite in-depth (for what it's worth)
What I'm bad at :
Taking a lot of small decisions (Sensei's Divining Top in Miracles being a good example)
Staying focused, not doing any mistake, over a long period of time
Playing lengthy games that take a lot of mental energy
Playing fast when few time is left in the round (but I think I could fix this with practice, which I could have time and motivation for if needed)
Thanks for reading !
I'll make a small plug for Aluren:
Case in favour:
-Two divergent gameplans means that you're unlikely to hit match-ups where you're just kolded by an opponent's deck or SB.
-Diverse play means that you're unlikely to hit the skill-ceiling. You're also less likely to get bored.
-HUGE range of options for tweaking -- greatly rewards format knowledge.
-Greatly capitalizes on your Cabal Therapy skills, but takes them a step further, since you're more likely to make contextualized calls instead of blanket calls (Not as many situations of "I just need to take their counter")
-Very rules knowledge-intensive for how the stack works
-Requires you to juggle lots of things at once and in non-standard conceptualizations
-Has been doing well in the metagame but is still fringe
Difficulties:
-It's unclear if this falls under lots small decisions
-The fair gameplan does trend towards long games
For further information, I've put an example decklist in spoilers below (actually my own), and you can also read a recent tournament report here.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
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I think you'll struggle with just three duals in delver. The blue deck best suited to going that light on duals is probably Miracles. Straight UW with 2-3 Tundra and back to basics, or UWr with 2 tundra, 1 volcanic island, and a basic mountain are each manageable (in fact, I know people who have topped events with Miracles even including budget land replacements - such as prairie stream for any tundras that they were short on beyond the first)
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
i heard miralce is a hard deck to play and i might not be able to play it often like 1-2 times a month can i still put up some result with it?
I think it depends. Like, Legacy is a format where all people really get to know their decks. You will be at a bit of a disadvantage in the format as a novice no matter what you play. That's okay though. I do think that it has higher barrier to initial entry than Delver (in terms of deck familiarity) though. One last point: Would you be playing 1-2 events a month or 1-2 times including even just friendly pick-up games? I would recommend enough practice to at least get the instinct down on "hold on, flip counterbalance" over "yeah, it resolves", so if you think you can get that then Miracles is fine; if not, WeaponX's suggestion of UR Delver is better
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Hey,
I like grindy style of decks with lots of interaction but also creatures since I like attacking with creatures so Miracles is not an option(I also like aggro decks but well aggro is not where you want to be in Legacy for the most part) and I don't like combo and I want competitive deck.
Basically I'm deciding between Grixis Delver and Shardless BUG but can't decide since I like both of them although some may say Shardless BUG is the way to go because I play Jund in Modern which is my favourite deck in format. My metagame changes quite frequently but there is always one UB Reanimator, Deathblade, Grixis or 4 color Delver or Control, one Miracles, recently there was an upstick of Eldrazi (my metagame is small, there are usually somewhere around 20 players and at the last tournament there were 3 Eldrazi decks), usually Death and Taxes, 1-2 Elves or one of them being Infect and then some random decks such as Merfolk, Lands, 12 Post, Show and Tell, Storm (although it's on the side line with all the Eldrazi now), Jund, Nic Fit, Maverick and similar stuff and not all of these random decks are always present.
I don't know which one would perform better in this metagame (I know it's very diverse for such a small one and none of decks I mentioned has good game against all of these) but hopefully someone can help me with this since I'll most likely go with this one (as I said I can't decide which one I prefer).
I think both would be fine in your meta, with a slight preference for Shardless since it is strong vs Eldrazi.
My recommendation is to go with Shardless BUG. It plays to your favourite style of gameplay and gives you the ability to play with more of the "only in legacy" cards that you don't get to experience in Modern (Brainstorm, Hymn to Tourach, Shardless Agent, DRS, FoW, JTMS). While I don't think that the latter reason is specifically a defining reason to go with the deck, I do think that you'll enjoy experiencing another dimension added to something that you already enjoy and know well.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I've never found Mono-black reanimator to be tough. It's like a worse Dimir Reanimator. The blue cards make the deck a lot better.
Big problem with mono-black reanimator is that you're forced to play seriously sub-par cards like Putrid Imp for discard outlets rather than using the fairly powerful Careful Study/Faithless Looting.
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Black's options are pretty limited. Pox is probably the most-played, but Pox also tends to splash green for Abrupt Decay and maybe Life from the Loam, or White for Lingering Souls and Vindicate. "The Gate" was at one point a deck, being a heavy discard aggressive deck running creatures like Gatekeeper of Malakir and Abyssal Persecutor, but that hasn't shown up in a top 8 in something like 3 years. There's also Demon Stompy, the black take on the Sol Lands plus Disruptive Artifacts deck, but Eldrazi has largely taken over as the Stompy deck of choice. There was also very briefly a Devotion deck, which played a bit like The Gate but used Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx to ramp out Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Phyrexian Obliterator.
So Pox is most likely your answer. A recent mono-black Pox Top8 can be found here.
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If you're after big creatures and Welder, you're either looking at a red MUD variant or brewing something up yourself.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
WBTokensWB
What level are you trying to play at, what's your budget like, what cards do you already have? The more information you give, the better the answers are going to be. "Not spend a bunch of money" is pretty nebulous.
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
I don't think there are that many budget options for Miracles, since you kinda need Jaces, duals, FoWs and Snapcasters for it to be competitive enough. Pure control deck kind of needs all the tools to be able to stand against more linear decks.
Death and Taxes is the best blade deck, if you consider that a blade deck. For stoneblade and deathblade decks, I think they are equally viable even pre-board since it seems to be just a matter of taste which threats you prefer. And how high you value Deathrite Shaman as a card.
BRG Griselbrand reanimator, BUR Grixis Control, UR Blue moon (with Possibility Storm sometimes)
Legacy:
BU Reanimator, BU Omni-tell, BUW Tin Fins, BUR ANT / TES, <> Eldrazi Stompy
That's garbage. Plenty of people win in Legacy without duals.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/445257#online
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_mono_g_infect_with_c.html
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13723&d=280873&f=LE
If you want my opinion, don't worry about whether other people think your deck is 'good enough.' Spending money doesn't necessarily make you a better MTG player or deckbuilder. Your deck is good enough if it wins. Both Lands and BG Pox will win at the top levels of competition, and my guess is that neither of them are 'fad' decks. If you can afford to do either of them- and do them well- I'd just play the deck that you're most excited about playing and matches what you're good at and like to do in gameplay. I'm a fan of Pox, personally. If I was spending that much money on a deck, and was that serious about playing competitively, I'd try to pick one that has a reputation as being more complicated and difficult to pilot, one that you'll keep getting better at playing with for a while. If you really can't make up your mind you could try to brew some sort of hybrid deck. You probably wouldn't win as often as with 'pure' loam pox or 'pure' lands, but I think playing with a deck that feels like 'yours' is more fun. The more fun you're having, and the more you like your deck, the better you'll probably play it. It also depends on the meta you play in. If everyone at your card shop plays Blood Moon, Lands is probably a bad choice. The further your deck is from the mainstream, the less prepared people will be to go against you.
Any reason not to buy into it?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
If you want to play legacy and can afford the deck, it's a solid one. It also has a lot of pieces that fit into other decks if you decide to branch out.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
If you just want a deck to play when there are large tournaments in your area you may want to weigh the cost and benefit of shelling out for duals and the like. It's a great format with a great community (at least in my experience), but the opportunities to play don't fall into your lap as often as modern or standard.
Pox frequently splashes green or white. Reanimator almost exclusively runs blue or red.
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And since you are saying you have a knowledge of the format I have to suggest my baby, parfait. Knowledge of the format is the biggest asset to the deck.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Case in favour:
-Two divergent gameplans means that you're unlikely to hit match-ups where you're just kolded by an opponent's deck or SB.
-Diverse play means that you're unlikely to hit the skill-ceiling. You're also less likely to get bored.
-HUGE range of options for tweaking -- greatly rewards format knowledge.
-Greatly capitalizes on your Cabal Therapy skills, but takes them a step further, since you're more likely to make contextualized calls instead of blanket calls (Not as many situations of "I just need to take their counter")
-Very rules knowledge-intensive for how the stack works
-Requires you to juggle lots of things at once and in non-standard conceptualizations
-Has been doing well in the metagame but is still fringe
Difficulties:
-It's unclear if this falls under lots small decisions
-The fair gameplan does trend towards long games
For further information, I've put an example decklist in spoilers below (actually my own), and you can also read a recent tournament report here.
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Baleful Strix
2 Shardless Agent
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Dream Stalker
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Aluren
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Force of Will
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Plague
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Null Rod
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Minister of Pain
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Fire Imp
1 Bone Shredder
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Faerie Macabre
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إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
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I've never found Mono-black reanimator to be tough. It's like a worse Dimir Reanimator. The blue cards make the deck a lot better.
My recommendation is to go with Shardless BUG. It plays to your favourite style of gameplay and gives you the ability to play with more of the "only in legacy" cards that you don't get to experience in Modern (Brainstorm, Hymn to Tourach, Shardless Agent, DRS, FoW, JTMS). While I don't think that the latter reason is specifically a defining reason to go with the deck, I do think that you'll enjoy experiencing another dimension added to something that you already enjoy and know well.
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Big problem with mono-black reanimator is that you're forced to play seriously sub-par cards like Putrid Imp for discard outlets rather than using the fairly powerful Careful Study/Faithless Looting.
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