It's kind of funny to look at Reckless Waif and then Delver of Secrets.
Red is inherently the more aggressive color, and fast beats naturally go into that color. Yet blue gets the card that's easier to flip, flipping it causes no loss in tempo, and it can't flip back over. Oh yeah, let's also add flying to it
What would aggro really need? Better cheap creatures also strengthen RUG unless they have tempo negative drawbacks like Goblin Guide, but what further design space is there to even explore in Goblin Guide-esque creatures?
Well, if you look at M13, I think they are going in the right direction with the set of creatures that car about land types. This allows a format like Legacy to have the powerful creatures they need, but only to a certain extent, and only to specific archetypes.
Like, how would U/W benefit from a Green creature that cares about Swamps and Islands?
It also puts them in line with one of the cornerstones of Legacy, which is Wasteland.
And funny you bring up Waif vs Delver, because look at the rarity too. Those cards were clearly tested for Block and Limited more than they were for Constructed, because Delver is honestly terrible in those formats, where Waif can be back breaking.
Again, a little off tangent, but just trying to explore the "power creep" in relation to what I think will eventually get SnT banned.
How much more powerful can creatures get? Maybe a 13/13 demon with flying, lifelink, trample, protection from everything, cannot be countered, hexproof
When demon etb: all spells are free, opponent discards hand , demon cannot be sacrificed, draw 13 cards and storm count is 10.
How much more powerful can creatures get? Maybe a 13/13 demon with flying, lifelink, trample, protection from everything, cannot be countered, hexproof
all spells are free, opponent discards hand when, demon cannot be sacrificed, draw 13 cards and storm count is 10 when etb.
True, but wotc really isn't increasing the power/cost of instants, sorceries, etc. besides that ridiculous card Omniscience I don't see them pushing enchantments either but creatures sure are getting more efficient and effective with all their abilities and whatnot.
Spells certainly are being scaled down for the most part. I mean Lingering Souls is good and I guess faithless looting is also pretty good, but when was the last time a truly powerful non-creature spell was created? I guess MM, but barring that? Nothing that has warped the format like Grisel, Delver, and snappy so far.
Spells certainly are being scaled down for the most part. I mean Lingering Souls is good and I guess faithless looting is also pretty good, but when was the last time a truly powerful non-creature spell was created? I guess MM, but barring that? Nothing that has warped the format like Grisel, Delver, and snappy so far.
None of those creatures has warped the meta-game. More decks run SFM than they do either of these creatures.
SFM and JtMS are 2 format warping cards in recent memory (that are unbanned of course)
I have seen a lot of Canadian Thresh matches (I play UR Delver and wanted to see who had the faster clock) and yes it loses hard to Vial decks and decks that are overall more aggressive than it (I saw the deck lose to Burn because of Ensnaring Bridge and Affinity because of a Tezz Ultimate)
As for Earthcraft, I am unsure it may make Elves better and Maverick might board it in, overall I think it is safe to come off
Although it would never happen I would like to see Balance removed, I know it is Mind Twist, Wrath of God, and Armageddon, but it doesn't hit planeswalkers, enchantments, or artifacts
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Yes, it doesnt hit planeswalkers or enchantments, in the color with the most likely 2nd best planeswalker in the game, and a hoard of the best enchantments for legacy. xP
Spells have had a real ebb and flow power wise. Obviously they started high and then kept dropping, but have risen and dropped again a few times, with a few notable moments.
Creatures have only gone up since the games start. You can take almost any creature from any given block and compare it to creatures from 2-3 blocks behind it and see the shift with only a few exceptions, which tend to be the ones that see play. Zendkar block for instance had Goblin Guide, steppe lynx, plated geopede, etc. Take a peek at even Ravnica or spiral block and you can see that almost no aggressive creature holds a candle to them save for the superstars of the block.
Powercreep is something we should all consider when talking about the cards on this list. A few months back Tarmogoyf was public enemy number one and now it has gotten to the point where he sees play often as a 1 of in decks that use GSZ, if even.
Personally I don't think any of the cost effective creatures are problematic right now. Goyf is big and invalidates a lot of other creatures, but hes not breaking the format. Stoneforge is a giant pain, but likewise there are ways to attack her as well since she is pretty weak and almost forgettable as a creature on play without her equipment for support.
The creatures that are or potentially are problems are the ones who are part of combo lists, specifically anything that basically wins when it gets played. there are really only 2 creatures who do this right now at all, emrakul and grizzlebees. As for them being too good or the engine that puts them into play being too good in my opinion is still up for debate.
Although it would never happen I would like to see Balance removed, I know it is Mind Twist, Wrath of God, and Armageddon, but it doesn't hit planeswalkers, enchantments, or artifacts
The fact it doesn't hit artifacts and planeswalkers makes the decks that would run it so much better, Elspeth>Balance>Win?, in a blank board with 1 walker, the balance deck is going to win every time, think stax is annoying now, imagine when they sack all their lands to zuran orb and cast balance and laugh at the fact you played creatures and lands, and thats ruling out any potential brews that haven't been made yet.
That said, I wake up everyday and hope to see the announcement that balance is unbanned.
None of those creatures has warped the meta-game. More decks run SFM than they do either of these creatures.
funnily enough, the nevermentioned delver is technically the most "format warping" card created recently, made tempo thresh really good didnt it? (and helped team america too)
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Painterstone isn't a problem at all right now because emrakul is a card that obsoletes that deck sans the painterstone deck having a leyline of the void in play (I have yet to see any painter build with leyline of the void SBed.) Also, the deck isn't exactly the most stable as it is a creature based combo just like cephalid breakfast. It also uses the graveyard. Surgical extraction is a hoser for painterstone decks utilizing intuition. I would love for the deck to be competitive, but there are better options right now namely griselbrand and storm.
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i said "most", relative term. everyone was whining about griselbrand for a while, while sneak and show hadnt even broken into the top 3.
While i consider none of the cards format warping (though delver annoys me on a personal level, simply because it doesn't seem "blue"), delver did propel tempo rug to first by providing a 2nd one-drop threat.
also, doesnt painterstone run surgical extraction to combat emrakul
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i said "most", relative term. everyone was whining about griselbrand for a while, while sneak and show hadnt even broken into the top 3.
While i consider none of the cards format warping (though delver annoys me on a personal level, simply because it doesn't seem "blue"), delver did propel tempo rug to first by providing a 2nd one-drop threat.
also, doesnt painterstone run surgical extraction to combat emrakul
I actually thought they ran Stifle or main deck GY Hate for the shuffle effects, but I believe they run that as well
Painterstone would be great, if it could combat the shuffle effects like Void Helm can
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I was taking a look at the Legacy banned list since Land Tax was unbanned.
I haven't been in the Legacy scene since day 1, so can someone explain to me why Worldgorger Dragon is banned?
I personally think that Griselbrand is a better card, but maybe I'm missing a piece of a puzzle.
because the DCI sucks!
they don't litely retract bannings. i mean land tax was banned for 10 years plus, so it maybe possible worldgorger will come off sometime here shortly.
but it was a banning that made sense at the time. now that worldgorger is next to a useless combo it should come off at some point.
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It's possible to create (say, with Animate Dead) infinite loops of everything leaving and returning to the battlefield, and thus infinite mana. If you don't happen to have anything to do with the mana and there are no other creatures in graveyards and no one can terminate the loop at instant speed, the game draws. Personally, I think in Legacy today there are better things to do and unbanning this card wouldn't be problematic, but that's up for debate. As suggested, maybe Land Tax is an indication that the DCI is finally getting around to removing chaff like this from the no-no list.
Solely because it can draw the game, that has to be the only reason the DCI hasn't unbanned it while they've unbanned time spiral and entomb, both of which are far more powerful in comparison to WGD. The combo is as fragile as combo's get, dying to enchantment hate, creature removal, graveyard hate, and countermagic just like cephalid breakfast. Not to mention it's a 3 card combo in essence, as you need to have read the runes or something to do with the mana at instant speed in hand since bazaar of baghdad is banned. The reason bazaar made that deck tick is because it dumps dragon in the graveyard and with the infinite loop active you can mill your entire deck into your graveyard, including some creature win con like shivan hellkite, which is pretty good with infinite mana or other similar creatures like oona, queen of the fae.
The card is long overdue to come off though IMO, the card is quite underpowered in comparison to griselbrand.
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Yuck. I remember in one tournament where the WGD player was having trouble, and if it looked like he would lose, he'd go into an infinite loop. 5 games later (the games were pretty short, so they reached 5 before time was called) they still ended up in a draw.
That game got me face palming throughout.
If shrazad gets a ban (despite the fact that you can just concede the subgame, even if it meant life loss; shrahrazad is not banned because of power reasons), I don't see worldgorger being unbanned any time soon.
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Worldgorger Dragon has one very narrow (and hard to achieve in Legacy) game state that can result in a draw - Worldgorger Dragon MUST BE THE ONLY creature in any graveyard to satisfy the requirements for an infinite loop of only mandatory actions. If there are any other creatures in either graveyard, then a Judge should be called if the Dragon player is manually looping the combo to run down the time when there is a legitimate choice besides WGD in either graveyard.
Aside from that, it is slower than most Storm decks since it does not have Bazaar of Baghdad to help put WGD and Oona into the bin, it is weak against graveyard hate because it requires graveyard interaction to work, and it just doubles over and dies to any non-damage based creature removal or bounce (bounce or kill WGD in response to it's ETB trigger, it's LTB trigger goes on the stack and returns nothing, then ETB trigger resolves and exiles everything the Dragon player controls).
In Vintage, Dragon is a house of a deck. But in Legacy...it would be a tier 2 combo deck at best. It just has too many weaknesses and is overall too slow.
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faithless looting and carefulstudy would like to say high, add in fast mana. and you have turn 1 loop/mana to go with nuts with, WGD should stay banned just because of the risk of "what" it could do. Maverick if on the draw for example.
And careful study/looting still die to leyline of the void. I mean you don't ban cards because of what they 'can' do, I mean I have a scenario where you get to 4UU, cast 4 lotus petal's, cast upheaval, recast the 4 lotus petals into tendrils. See how upheaval isn't banned because it can win me the game? Same with LED, dark ritual, etc. etc. I mean in theory I can go swamp, dark rit x4, lotus petal, griselbrand. Does that mean dark ritual should be banned? No.
Also, good luck with a turn 1 kill with WGD in legacy. The odds of that happening with the current card pool are still extremely low, and you have to dilute your deck with cards like dark ritual and other fast mana cards that can be absolutely dead lategame. Basically, WGD is cephalid breakfast combo that can draw the game. That's about it. And where is cephalid breakfast in legacy? Oh right, it's sitting in the corner whining about how much better reanimator is or TES or Doomsday fetchland tendrils.
But I'll say it again anyways. WGD is banned solely because it can draw games, there is no other reason.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Worldgorger Dragon has one very narrow (and hard to achieve in Legacy) game state that can result in a draw - Worldgorger Dragon MUST BE THE ONLY creature in any graveyard to satisfy the requirements for an infinite loop of only mandatory actions. If there are any other creatures in either graveyard, then a Judge should be called if the Dragon player is manually looping the combo to run down the time when there is a legitimate choice besides WGD in either graveyard.
Aside from that, it is slower than most Storm decks since it does not have Bazaar of Baghdad to help put WGD and Oona into the bin, it is weak against graveyard hate because it requires graveyard interaction to work, and it just doubles over and dies to any non-damage based creature removal or bounce (bounce or kill WGD in response to it's ETB trigger, it's LTB trigger goes on the stack and returns nothing, then ETB trigger resolves and exiles everything the Dragon player controls).
In Vintage, Dragon is a house of a deck. But in Legacy...it would be a tier 2 combo deck at best. It just has too many weaknesses and is overall too slow.
It's really not that hard to achieve, considering it can happen on turn 1 before your opponent actually plays anything.
Is it broken? No, not at all, in fact it's very easy to disrupt, but don't think that for a second it's hard to pull off that loop in Legacy.
Well, if you look at M13, I think they are going in the right direction with the set of creatures that car about land types. This allows a format like Legacy to have the powerful creatures they need, but only to a certain extent, and only to specific archetypes.
Like, how would U/W benefit from a Green creature that cares about Swamps and Islands?
It also puts them in line with one of the cornerstones of Legacy, which is Wasteland.
And funny you bring up Waif vs Delver, because look at the rarity too. Those cards were clearly tested for Block and Limited more than they were for Constructed, because Delver is honestly terrible in those formats, where Waif can be back breaking.
Again, a little off tangent, but just trying to explore the "power creep" in relation to what I think will eventually get SnT banned.
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True, but wotc really isn't increasing the power/cost of instants, sorceries, etc. besides that ridiculous card Omniscience I don't see them pushing enchantments either but creatures sure are getting more efficient and effective with all their abilities and whatnot.
None of those creatures has warped the meta-game. More decks run SFM than they do either of these creatures.
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I have seen a lot of Canadian Thresh matches (I play UR Delver and wanted to see who had the faster clock) and yes it loses hard to Vial decks and decks that are overall more aggressive than it (I saw the deck lose to Burn because of Ensnaring Bridge and Affinity because of a Tezz Ultimate)
As for Earthcraft, I am unsure it may make Elves better and Maverick might board it in, overall I think it is safe to come off
Although it would never happen I would like to see Balance removed, I know it is Mind Twist, Wrath of God, and Armageddon, but it doesn't hit planeswalkers, enchantments, or artifacts
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Creatures have only gone up since the games start. You can take almost any creature from any given block and compare it to creatures from 2-3 blocks behind it and see the shift with only a few exceptions, which tend to be the ones that see play. Zendkar block for instance had Goblin Guide, steppe lynx, plated geopede, etc. Take a peek at even Ravnica or spiral block and you can see that almost no aggressive creature holds a candle to them save for the superstars of the block.
Powercreep is something we should all consider when talking about the cards on this list. A few months back Tarmogoyf was public enemy number one and now it has gotten to the point where he sees play often as a 1 of in decks that use GSZ, if even.
Personally I don't think any of the cost effective creatures are problematic right now. Goyf is big and invalidates a lot of other creatures, but hes not breaking the format. Stoneforge is a giant pain, but likewise there are ways to attack her as well since she is pretty weak and almost forgettable as a creature on play without her equipment for support.
The creatures that are or potentially are problems are the ones who are part of combo lists, specifically anything that basically wins when it gets played. there are really only 2 creatures who do this right now at all, emrakul and grizzlebees. As for them being too good or the engine that puts them into play being too good in my opinion is still up for debate.
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The fact it doesn't hit artifacts and planeswalkers makes the decks that would run it so much better, Elspeth>Balance>Win?, in a blank board with 1 walker, the balance deck is going to win every time, think stax is annoying now, imagine when they sack all their lands to zuran orb and cast balance and laugh at the fact you played creatures and lands, and thats ruling out any potential brews that haven't been made yet.
That said, I wake up everyday and hope to see the announcement that balance is unbanned.
funnily enough, the nevermentioned delver is technically the most "format warping" card created recently, made tempo thresh really good didnt it? (and helped team america too)
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While i consider none of the cards format warping (though delver annoys me on a personal level, simply because it doesn't seem "blue"), delver did propel tempo rug to first by providing a 2nd one-drop threat.
also, doesnt painterstone run surgical extraction to combat emrakul
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I actually thought they ran Stifle or main deck GY Hate for the shuffle effects, but I believe they run that as well
Painterstone would be great, if it could combat the shuffle effects like Void Helm can
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isnt painterstone mostly monored after mm ban tho?
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Don't forget that high tide can combat emrakul, painter's servant combo can too. Ravneous trap ftw.
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I haven't been in the Legacy scene since day 1, so can someone explain to me why Worldgorger Dragon is banned?
I personally think that Griselbrand is a better card, but maybe I'm missing a piece of a puzzle.
they don't litely retract bannings. i mean land tax was banned for 10 years plus, so it maybe possible worldgorger will come off sometime here shortly.
but it was a banning that made sense at the time. now that worldgorger is next to a useless combo it should come off at some point.
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The card is long overdue to come off though IMO, the card is quite underpowered in comparison to griselbrand.
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That game got me face palming throughout.
If shrazad gets a ban (despite the fact that you can just concede the subgame, even if it meant life loss; shrahrazad is not banned because of power reasons), I don't see worldgorger being unbanned any time soon.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Aside from that, it is slower than most Storm decks since it does not have Bazaar of Baghdad to help put WGD and Oona into the bin, it is weak against graveyard hate because it requires graveyard interaction to work, and it just doubles over and dies to any non-damage based creature removal or bounce (bounce or kill WGD in response to it's ETB trigger, it's LTB trigger goes on the stack and returns nothing, then ETB trigger resolves and exiles everything the Dragon player controls).
In Vintage, Dragon is a house of a deck. But in Legacy...it would be a tier 2 combo deck at best. It just has too many weaknesses and is overall too slow.
And careful study/looting still die to leyline of the void. I mean you don't ban cards because of what they 'can' do, I mean I have a scenario where you get to 4UU, cast 4 lotus petal's, cast upheaval, recast the 4 lotus petals into tendrils. See how upheaval isn't banned because it can win me the game? Same with LED, dark ritual, etc. etc. I mean in theory I can go swamp, dark rit x4, lotus petal, griselbrand. Does that mean dark ritual should be banned? No.
Also, good luck with a turn 1 kill with WGD in legacy. The odds of that happening with the current card pool are still extremely low, and you have to dilute your deck with cards like dark ritual and other fast mana cards that can be absolutely dead lategame. Basically, WGD is cephalid breakfast combo that can draw the game. That's about it. And where is cephalid breakfast in legacy? Oh right, it's sitting in the corner whining about how much better reanimator is or TES or Doomsday fetchland tendrils.
But I'll say it again anyways. WGD is banned solely because it can draw games, there is no other reason.
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It's really not that hard to achieve, considering it can happen on turn 1 before your opponent actually plays anything.
Is it broken? No, not at all, in fact it's very easy to disrupt, but don't think that for a second it's hard to pull off that loop in Legacy.
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