The format has absolutely no problem with infinite loops, especially if they're quite hard to pull off and involve more than 1 card. If you look at the present banlist, you'll see that the combotastic cards on there pretty much combo alone (Hermit Druid) or are extremely cheap (Earthcraft).
Anyone see either Food Chain or Misthollow Griffin get banned from Legacy at one point? Or is the format fine with infinity loops? I'm not too familiar with the format.
Food Chain and Misthollow Griffin is not an Infinite loop, but it is optional unlike WGD Animate Dead, it is infinite for mana to be spent on creature spells, but a judge can be called on someone if they use the combo to delay the game.
So far no Food Chain deck has placed in any SCG events, I think the combo is great it just hasn't found the right shell yet
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I think that was the point. FoW enables these powerful cards to stay in longer, because without FoW the format would degenerate and WotC would have to ban a bunch of other broken cards. You said it yourself: you're packing FoW to stop the degenerate combo decks.
No, those combo cards are degenerate with or without Force of Will in the format. Sometimes they seem even more powerful because the combo decks can run Force themselves.
Force is a perfectly fine card. It's Show+Tell/Reanimate/whatever that are the problems.
Agree with the argument against show and tell, the theory behind force is something totally seperate.
To me at this point show and tell is basically on the same level as survival was. Survival required you had 3 mana (1 for activation) and a creature in hand. Show and tell requires 3 mana and a creature in hand (though now it can be other things as well). Resolve either and your probably winning the game, more so probably with show and tell.
@Pro: You forget a key difference between the two tho, Survival allowed you to set up and chain thru creatures, (effectively being a re-usable tutor) recurring the vengevines turn after turn, so short of path/swords they continue to come back. Where as SnT is a one time use, which allows for both players to play out respective cards. Most decks in the format can deal with what SnT puts into play. Short of stopping the survival itself it was very hard to stop the recursion of the tutor engine.
Agree with the argument against show and tell, the theory behind force is something totally seperate.
To me at this point show and tell is basically on the same level as survival was. Survival required you had 3 mana (1 for activation) and a creature in hand. Show and tell requires 3 mana and a creature in hand (though now it can be other things as well). Resolve either and your probably winning the game, more so probably with show and tell.
I'm curious how the Show and Tell mirror match works out. Do neither player want to cast it because the opponent can simply throw out their own Emrakul/Grissel and either legend rule to kill both or kill you on their next turn. That seems to be the one major difference. With Survival, you can simply give no ****s about anything the opponent does.
I've also heard stories of players siding in Emrakul against the matchup just to win when the opponent plays their S&T. Wouldn't work against Sneak Attack of course.
I mean clones are mostly better in that situation cause they can also be hardcast than maindecking emrakul, unless your meta is nothign but show and tell and painter stone.
The mirrors I have seen are awful. depends though on what build people are using, with sneak and show you try to get sneak into play and then use emrakul to win, while with dreamhalls it is a bit different, and of course there is reanimator which is once again another story. I imagine with that new enchantment from m13 it will be another story yet again.
The mirrors usually turn into who can filter into the proper wincon first though, and often go to time from what i have seen.
I think that was the point. FoW enables these powerful cards to stay in longer, because without FoW the format would degenerate and WotC would have to ban a bunch of other broken cards. You said it yourself: you're packing FoW to stop the degenerate combo decks.
eh, i wouldn't label all comboes "degenerate", i think combo should be a nice, viable strategy, it adds a nice bit of variety imo.
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I find it surprising how diverse the last SCG Open top 8 was, and seeing Lands, Affinity, and Elves, two decks that before the Invitational weren't top 8ing like this just makes me think the format has adapted to Griselbrand in legacy.
If Elf Combo gets to out of hand we may see the return of Engineered Plague in sideboards
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I mean clones are mostly better in that situation cause they can also be hardcast than maindecking emrakul, unless your meta is nothign but show and tell and painter stone.
It's not that Clones can be hardcasted, they HAVE to be hardcasted.
They have a replacement effect upon ETB, which means if you choose Clone, and they choose Emrakul, you gotta pick another creature, because Emrakul was not in the Battlefield when the Clone arrived.
They are a bad option, why do you think no one runs them?
Phatasmal Image sees play, but that's less of a "kill Griselbrand and Emrakul" thing, and more for its ability to be something like Lord of Atlantis 5-8. Getting to Legend clause something away is just a nice bonus.
Anything other clone variant is going to be a turn or two too slow, when legendary fatties can come down on turn 2.
One top 16 is hardly reason for a banning, but again one top 16 is also scarcely enough evidence to prove something is not bannable, which seems to be the midset that grips this forum a lot.
Unless a deck is flat broken, even it has matches it loses. Survival had matches it lost. Misstep had matches it lost. Mystical tutor reanimator and tes had matches it lost. As a result even the most powerful of decks will not always see play unless is is something that consistently wins even when boarded against, even if they are overall the best deck, because of the cyclical nature of the game.
You see it the most with dredge. Dredge gets play enmasse, people side against dredge, People stop play dredge, people unside against it, people play it. This could very well be happening with grizzle or show and tell right now, it is to early to tell and the sample size is not large enough.
One top 16 is hardly reason for a banning, but again one top 16 is also scarcely enough evidence to prove something is not bannable, which seems to be the midset that grips this forum a lot.
Unless a deck is flat broken, even it has matches it loses. Survival had matches it lost. Misstep had matches it lost. Mystical tutor reanimator and tes had matches it lost. As a result even the most powerful of decks will not always see play unless is is something that consistently wins even when boarded against, even if they are overall the best deck, because of the cyclical nature of the game.
You see it the most with dredge. Dredge gets play enmasse, people side against dredge, People stop play dredge, people unside against it, people play it. This could very well be happening with grizzle or show and tell right now, it is to early to tell and the sample size is not large enough.
Point taken but unlike Dredge SnT isn't as easily sided against and is more much adaptive, not to mention consistent. One event doesn't prove anything, just like the event prior with SnT decks in the top.
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So in that top they had Goblins, Belcher and they had Sam Black's weird ass zombie deck.
I'm gonna say that SnT if it was there could've beaten any of the decks that topped. It's easy to lose tournaments when you face bad pairing. I've lost at tournies when I played perfectly. Stuff like when I played almost a full combo with combo elves, once I was about to resolve a 3rd glimpse, the guy blindly taps top and rips a terminus off.
How do I beat that?
I didn't watch the matches, but as someone already said; one tournament means nothing. The deck is borderline impossible for fair decks to interact with, requires very little skill and takes away from a healthy meta.
Mind you, that being said I don't think they need to be banned. I just think wizards needs to print cards that can stop these decks. SnT is too hard to side against. Especially now that omniscience also means they can now put that into play and get a free extra turn.
If they unbanned mind twist, we would see some pretty absurd things happening with that card, that could potentially be devestating. I've been playing some vintage and cube lately and whenever anyone pulls that card, it's the nuts. But it's not as broken as even some of the legal spells.
Either way, I agree. RUG is winning every tournament or at least top 8'ing. But my major issue is that there isn't any cards specifically in it that need banning. It's essentially just a goodstuff.dec
As I said though, we just need more powerful sideboard cards that aren't just for grave hate.
Just brainstorming:
To weaken RUG: Stenghen Aether Vial decks
To weaken Blade Control: Print something against Brainstorm, print creatures that can be played in avaiable fair decks, that are efficient and get rid of Batterskull (for example a Pridemage for Goblins)
To weaken Maverick: Sweepers that aren't effected by Teeg
RUG can outrace most vial decks (barring D&T but it's cool like that), and has enough burn to make their early dudes irrelevant, if anything loam needs a boost as that deck slaughters rug unless it hits the nut draw of 4 wastelands and fow.
Blade Control: The last decent brainstorm counter was Misstep, show of hands who wants that back. Also stone forge is a X/2, half the format trades with it and is easily killed, kill that and they have this large bulky equipment sitting in their hands doing, you guess it, nothing. Also, play moar aggro (speaking of...)
Maverick: storm...seriously the maindecked thalias are there for a reason.
The problem is that all of those decks are incredibly versatile, RUG can be adapted to beat anything when made right and Maverick (although less so) is the same, both decks can keep hands that consist of 2 lands and gas without worrying as to what gas it is.
RUG can outrace most vial decks (barring D&T but it's cool like that), and has enough burn to make their early dudes irrelevant, if anything loam needs a boost as that deck slaughters rug unless it hits the nut draw of 4 wastelands and fow.
You don't actually play much Canadian Thresh do you?
Vial decks are some of the worst match-ups for Canadian Thresh, why do you think no one played it when Merfolk was the most popular deck?
You don't actually play much Canadian Thresh do you?
Vial decks are some of the worst match-ups for Canadian Thresh, why do you think no one played it when Merfolk was the most popular deck?
Was to my understanding that merfolk had issues with removal, the first part is true though (Maverick FTW :P...and yes my sig does claim I have the deck..partially)
Was to my understanding that merfolk had issues with removal, the first part is true though (Maverick FTW :P...and yes my sig does claim I have the deck..partially)
While they do lose to Lightning Bolt and what not, the only card generally played in Thresh that does anything against them is Lightning Bolt, and they can play upwards of 16 Lords.
Fish lose HARD to Zoo, but is great against Canadian Thresh. If there wasn't so much Mav still around, I would be playing Fish just to pry on RUG.
Anyways, it seems clear that while powerful, Grizzy still doesn't need to be banned.
I stand by that SnT will be banned eventually, it has the inevitability of power creep, but for right now, nothing needs to go.
While they do lose to Lightning Bolt and what not, the only card generally played in Thresh that does anything against them is Lightning Bolt, and they can play upwards of 16 Lords.
Fish lose HARD to Zoo, but is great against Canadian Thresh. If there wasn't so much Mav still around, I would be playing Fish just to pry on RUG.
As you noted, RUG loses hard to vial decks. In my local meta, the RUG players have never won against the Merfolk or Goblins players in months. I for one think there might be a resurgence of Merfolk with the prevalence of RUG lately and perhaps the SCG Open numbers are starting to support this with a number of Top 8 (and Top 1) finishes for both Merfolk and Goblins.
I for one would welcome this since my pet deck is Zoo and Zoo annihilates both Merfolk and Goblins. I've had to retire it since even after altering my deck for my local meta I couldn't put up favorable percentages against most of the current meta other than RUG.
We'll have to see if that's the case where the meta goes towards Merfolk/Goblins to combat RUG, then Zoo to combat Merfolk/Goblins and then Combo to prey upon all the Aggro. I however am just speculating.
We'll have to see if that's the case where the meta goes towards Merfolk/Goblins to combat RUG, then Zoo to combat Merfolk/Goblins and then Combo to prey upon all the Aggro. I however am just speculating.
Just specualtion, and a little off topic, but Zoo and Canadian Thresh are about 50/50, I've played that much A LOT, and it's always tight, as Nacatl is much better than Mongoose.
The way I see it happening though is there never really is a resurgence of Aggro. If Vial decks pop up to combat Tempo, then Aggro decks start showing up, but because Tempo is decent against both Aggro and Combo, they will start seeing play again. In all honesty if WotC wants to see Aggro flourish again, they need to print a better creature than Goblin Guide, which then adds to the power creep motif.
It's kind of funny to look at Reckless Waif and then Delver of Secrets.
Red is inherently the more aggressive color, and fast beats naturally go into that color. Yet blue gets the card that's easier to flip, flipping it causes no loss in tempo, and it can't flip back over. Oh yeah, let's also add flying to it
What would aggro really need? Better cheap creatures also strengthen RUG unless they have tempo negative drawbacks like Goblin Guide, but what further design space is there to even explore in Goblin Guide-esque creatures?
Looking at the format right now just makes me think of Lion King. Circle of Life, yatta yatta. That quick surge of combo decks made Maverick a weaker choice, so for a few weeks we've seen Merfolk placing very well with good combo and RUG matchups. Might stick around for a while too with the new lord making Maverick at least somewhat easier, though Maverick still will have an edge as a deck that plays huge creatures with no islands. Would it really make a card like Aquitect's Will playable in the side? I guess not really because they can always just KotR away whatever land you put it on.
And of course Goblins is looking good again, with good to even matchups against any fair deck, and a fairly playable matchup post board against combo assuming a black splash. Cabal Therapy + Mogg War Marshall is grossly effective at tearing away hands, and Lackey + Piledriver give you surprising speed.
Great format right now!
Nothing needs to be touched at the moment, except some potential safe unbannings, which is exactly where things should be.
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Food Chain and Misthollow Griffin is not an Infinite loop, but it is optional unlike WGD Animate Dead, it is infinite for mana to be spent on creature spells, but a judge can be called on someone if they use the combo to delay the game.
So far no Food Chain deck has placed in any SCG events, I think the combo is great it just hasn't found the right shell yet
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Hermit Druid Combo:
No, those combo cards are degenerate with or without Force of Will in the format. Sometimes they seem even more powerful because the combo decks can run Force themselves.
Force is a perfectly fine card. It's Show+Tell/Reanimate/whatever that are the problems.
To me at this point show and tell is basically on the same level as survival was. Survival required you had 3 mana (1 for activation) and a creature in hand. Show and tell requires 3 mana and a creature in hand (though now it can be other things as well). Resolve either and your probably winning the game, more so probably with show and tell.
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I'm curious how the Show and Tell mirror match works out. Do neither player want to cast it because the opponent can simply throw out their own Emrakul/Grissel and either legend rule to kill both or kill you on their next turn. That seems to be the one major difference. With Survival, you can simply give no ****s about anything the opponent does.
I've also heard stories of players siding in Emrakul against the matchup just to win when the opponent plays their S&T. Wouldn't work against Sneak Attack of course.
The mirrors I have seen are awful. depends though on what build people are using, with sneak and show you try to get sneak into play and then use emrakul to win, while with dreamhalls it is a bit different, and of course there is reanimator which is once again another story. I imagine with that new enchantment from m13 it will be another story yet again.
The mirrors usually turn into who can filter into the proper wincon first though, and often go to time from what i have seen.
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eh, i wouldn't label all comboes "degenerate", i think combo should be a nice, viable strategy, it adds a nice bit of variety imo.
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Hermit Druid Combo:
It's not that Clones can be hardcasted, they HAVE to be hardcasted.
They have a replacement effect upon ETB, which means if you choose Clone, and they choose Emrakul, you gotta pick another creature, because Emrakul was not in the Battlefield when the Clone arrived.
They are a bad option, why do you think no one runs them?
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Anything other clone variant is going to be a turn or two too slow, when legendary fatties can come down on turn 2.
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Unless a deck is flat broken, even it has matches it loses. Survival had matches it lost. Misstep had matches it lost. Mystical tutor reanimator and tes had matches it lost. As a result even the most powerful of decks will not always see play unless is is something that consistently wins even when boarded against, even if they are overall the best deck, because of the cyclical nature of the game.
You see it the most with dredge. Dredge gets play enmasse, people side against dredge, People stop play dredge, people unside against it, people play it. This could very well be happening with grizzle or show and tell right now, it is to early to tell and the sample size is not large enough.
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Point taken but unlike Dredge SnT isn't as easily sided against and is more much adaptive, not to mention consistent. One event doesn't prove anything, just like the event prior with SnT decks in the top.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I'm gonna say that SnT if it was there could've beaten any of the decks that topped. It's easy to lose tournaments when you face bad pairing. I've lost at tournies when I played perfectly. Stuff like when I played almost a full combo with combo elves, once I was about to resolve a 3rd glimpse, the guy blindly taps top and rips a terminus off.
How do I beat that?
I didn't watch the matches, but as someone already said; one tournament means nothing. The deck is borderline impossible for fair decks to interact with, requires very little skill and takes away from a healthy meta.
Mind you, that being said I don't think they need to be banned. I just think wizards needs to print cards that can stop these decks. SnT is too hard to side against. Especially now that omniscience also means they can now put that into play and get a free extra turn.
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Black Vise (definitely)
Earthcraft (definitely)
Mind's Desire (definitely)
Skullclamp (probably not)
Worldgorger Dragon (probably)
Either way, I agree. RUG is winning every tournament or at least top 8'ing. But my major issue is that there isn't any cards specifically in it that need banning. It's essentially just a goodstuff.dec
As I said though, we just need more powerful sideboard cards that aren't just for grave hate.
Legacy:
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Edh:
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RUG can outrace most vial decks (barring D&T but it's cool like that), and has enough burn to make their early dudes irrelevant, if anything loam needs a boost as that deck slaughters rug unless it hits the nut draw of 4 wastelands and fow.
Blade Control: The last decent brainstorm counter was Misstep, show of hands who wants that back. Also stone forge is a X/2, half the format trades with it and is easily killed, kill that and they have this large bulky equipment sitting in their hands doing, you guess it, nothing. Also, play moar aggro (speaking of...)
Maverick: storm...seriously the maindecked thalias are there for a reason.
The problem is that all of those decks are incredibly versatile, RUG can be adapted to beat anything when made right and Maverick (although less so) is the same, both decks can keep hands that consist of 2 lands and gas without worrying as to what gas it is.
You don't actually play much Canadian Thresh do you?
Vial decks are some of the worst match-ups for Canadian Thresh, why do you think no one played it when Merfolk was the most popular deck?
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Tempo Thresh: Primer
Was to my understanding that merfolk had issues with removal, the first part is true though (Maverick FTW :P...and yes my sig does claim I have the deck..partially)
While they do lose to Lightning Bolt and what not, the only card generally played in Thresh that does anything against them is Lightning Bolt, and they can play upwards of 16 Lords.
Fish lose HARD to Zoo, but is great against Canadian Thresh. If there wasn't so much Mav still around, I would be playing Fish just to pry on RUG.
Anyways, it seems clear that while powerful, Grizzy still doesn't need to be banned.
I stand by that SnT will be banned eventually, it has the inevitability of power creep, but for right now, nothing needs to go.
Now, when does Earthcraft come off?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
As you noted, RUG loses hard to vial decks. In my local meta, the RUG players have never won against the Merfolk or Goblins players in months. I for one think there might be a resurgence of Merfolk with the prevalence of RUG lately and perhaps the SCG Open numbers are starting to support this with a number of Top 8 (and Top 1) finishes for both Merfolk and Goblins.
I for one would welcome this since my pet deck is Zoo and Zoo annihilates both Merfolk and Goblins. I've had to retire it since even after altering my deck for my local meta I couldn't put up favorable percentages against most of the current meta other than RUG.
We'll have to see if that's the case where the meta goes towards Merfolk/Goblins to combat RUG, then Zoo to combat Merfolk/Goblins and then Combo to prey upon all the Aggro. I however am just speculating.
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Just specualtion, and a little off topic, but Zoo and Canadian Thresh are about 50/50, I've played that much A LOT, and it's always tight, as Nacatl is much better than Mongoose.
The way I see it happening though is there never really is a resurgence of Aggro. If Vial decks pop up to combat Tempo, then Aggro decks start showing up, but because Tempo is decent against both Aggro and Combo, they will start seeing play again. In all honesty if WotC wants to see Aggro flourish again, they need to print a better creature than Goblin Guide, which then adds to the power creep motif.
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NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Red is inherently the more aggressive color, and fast beats naturally go into that color. Yet blue gets the card that's easier to flip, flipping it causes no loss in tempo, and it can't flip back over. Oh yeah, let's also add flying to it
What would aggro really need? Better cheap creatures also strengthen RUG unless they have tempo negative drawbacks like Goblin Guide, but what further design space is there to even explore in Goblin Guide-esque creatures?
Looking at the format right now just makes me think of Lion King. Circle of Life, yatta yatta. That quick surge of combo decks made Maverick a weaker choice, so for a few weeks we've seen Merfolk placing very well with good combo and RUG matchups. Might stick around for a while too with the new lord making Maverick at least somewhat easier, though Maverick still will have an edge as a deck that plays huge creatures with no islands. Would it really make a card like Aquitect's Will playable in the side? I guess not really because they can always just KotR away whatever land you put it on.
And of course Goblins is looking good again, with good to even matchups against any fair deck, and a fairly playable matchup post board against combo assuming a black splash. Cabal Therapy + Mogg War Marshall is grossly effective at tearing away hands, and Lackey + Piledriver give you surprising speed.
Great format right now!
Nothing needs to be touched at the moment, except some potential safe unbannings, which is exactly where things should be.