Then you end up with two threads that would be adding nothing to the community. Not exactly a solution.
Not really. You end up with one thread going round cyclically, and the other where we can discuss, for example, Black Vise or Mindtwist being unbanned or some such, without having 50%-75%+ of the discussion on the blue spell that some people clearly do not want to talk about. Almost all the "health of the format" comments stem from those discussions. At the moment there is little room to discuss cards other than BS. MM has had more mentions on this thread than most of the banlist, and it is mentioned exclusively almost in connection with BS.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Or someone could make a Q/A summary of our previous Brainstorm discussions, post it here and any further discussing would be prohibited as there really were no new arguments from either side.
Health of the format (a key point in the BS discussion) will always be under examination and debate as we get new data regularly.
Then you end up with two threads that would be adding nothing to the community. Not exactly a solution.
Not really. You end up with one thread going round cyclically, and the other where we can discuss, for example, Black Vise or Mindtwist being unbanned or some such, without having 50%-75%+ of the discussion on the blue spell that some people clearly do not want to talk about. Almost all the "health of the format" comments stem from those discussions. At the moment there is little room to discuss cards other than BS. MM has had more mentions on this thread than most of the banlist, and it is mentioned exclusively almost in connection with BS.
There isnt much to say about black vise and mindtwist.
Brainstorm, Mental Misstep, Survival, Show and Tell... those are hot cards. Brainstorm leads to pact because "Health of the Format" but in two questions.
What is color balance? Wizards banned Mental Misstep to restore color balance and since the banning there is still more blue decks then ever before. (This is why brainstorm is forever cursed to be linked with Mental Misstep)
Do wizards really believe if Brainstorm is banned the format folds? This is a bothersome question because too many players seem to say the same thing. Ban brainstorm the format folds (it'll kill lots of decks)... but on the other hand, those players call the card 'just a cantrip.' I know the format is not going to die with the banning of brainstorm, but I do believe wizards do believe this and that's why they are reluctant to talk about the problems of brainstorm. The only decks that will die with the banning of brainstorm is Miracles and Delver. Would the format be screwed? I think not. Here is why... Mental Misstep showed that legacy has a low mana curve, to the point that players believe that black vice seemed less a threat. Banning of brainstorm is not going to change the mana curve of the game. At worst, players might be using cards like Impulse.
On the other hand, because brainstorm is legal, I've been noticing wizards slipping awesome hate bears that do hurt brainstorm use. I think it's awesome and I love to see more of them.
PS: The two questions I'd bolded are the reasons why I'm on the brainstorm topic. I'm not out to ban the card but I want to know the answer to those 2 questions.
Then you end up with two threads that would be adding nothing to the community. Not exactly a solution.
Not really. You end up with one thread going round cyclically, and the other where we can discuss, for example, Black Vise or Mindtwist being unbanned or some such, without having 50%-75%+ of the discussion on the blue spell that some people clearly do not want to talk about. Almost all the "health of the format" comments stem from those discussions. At the moment there is little room to discuss cards other than BS. MM has had more mentions on this thread than most of the banlist, and it is mentioned exclusively almost in connection with BS.
There isnt much to say about black vise and mindtwist.
Brainstorm, Mental Misstep, Survival, Show and Tell... those are hot cards. Brainstorm leads to pact because "Health of the Format" but in two questions.
What is color balance? Wizards banned Mental Misstep to restore color balance and since the banning there is still more blue decks then ever before. (This is why brainstorm is forever cursed to be linked with Mental Misstep)
Do wizards really believe if Brainstorm is banned the format folds? This is a bothersome question because too many players seem to say the same thing. Ban brainstorm the format folds (it'll kill lots of decks)... but on the other hand, those players call the card 'just a cantrip.' I know the format is not going to die with the banning of brainstorm, but I do believe wizards do believe this and that's why they are reluctant to talk about the problems of brainstorm. The only decks that will die with the banning of brainstorm is Miracles and Delver. Would the format be screwed? I think not. Here is why... Mental Misstep showed that legacy has a low mana curve, to the point that players believe that black vice seemed less a threat. Banning of brainstorm is not going to change the mana curve of the game. At worst, players might be using cards like Impulse.
On the other hand, because brainstorm is legal, I've been noticing wizards slipping awesome hate bears that do hurt brainstorm use. I think it's awesome and I love to see more of them.
PS: The two questions I'd bolded are the reasons why I'm on the brainstorm topic. I'm not out to ban the card but I want to know the answer to those 2 questions.
There is an old saying, a dog with a bone.
Anyway, to answer your 2 questions.
1) Color balance is when all colors are equally viable in a format. Where one color isn't played to the exclusion of all others. Blue (mono blue) does NOT dominate Legacy. We have 4 mono blue decks and only ONE of them is any good.
High Tide
Solidarity
Merfolk
Omni Tell
All other decks that play blue play other colors in addition to blue. You can call them blue decks all you want. They are not. Calling a pig a cat doesn't make it a pig. It is still a cat.
Conversely, we have burn, which is mono red and a top tier deck. It's cheap, so lots of people can play it and be competitive. This is WONDERFUL for Legacy. We have DnT which is another top tier deck which is mono white. We have elves which, aside from 2 cards (DRS and AD) is a green deck. You have MUD which is colorless. You have Lands which defies all color barriers, more or less. You have Dredge which is another "non Magic" deck.
You have so much diversity in this format it's mind boggling. Legacy, in its entire history has NEVER been healthier. Point me to a more diverse meta than what we have now. I dare you.
The reason for the MM ban as I have said a million times already but you just don't listen, was not because the format was too blue. It was because every deck REGARDLESS of color could play it. Legacy was turning into MM wars. One drops became the worst thing to play in a format where a low mana curve is critical for a format that is this fast. WotC's "public statement" was nothing but PR because had they admitted the REAL reason, they would have looked like total incompetents for allowing such a card to be printed. Their statement of "too blue" was to save face, just like their statement of "we can't talk about the RL" is to avoid the real reason they don't really want it gone. But that's for another thread.
In short, Legacy during the MM era was the worst time to be playing Magic, let alone Legacy, PERIOD. It was worse than Black Summer, Combo Winter, Affinity and Caw Blade all rolled into one. It was a NIGHTMARE.
You cannot POSSIBLY compare the existence of Brainstorm in this format to that of MM. The two cards aren't even in the same ballpark. When MM hit Legacy I called it almost immediately that it would be banned. I had NO DOUBT IN MY MIND. The card was an abomination and should have NEVER BEEN PRINTED.
No comparison between the two cards.
And yes, if Brainstorm is banned, the players will be up in arms. The card makes many decks (not just one) more consistent. As the poster above me said, the reason for a ban is to keep one deck from being oppressive, such as Survival decks. Brainstorm doesn't make one deck oppressive. It actually enables many decks to be top tier. Remove it from the format and you effectively weaken enough decks to piss off a lot of players.
That is NOT what you want for a format that is its healthiest it has been since type 1.5 was established.
I can live with WotC living in the stone ages and keeping relics on the banned list that shouldn't be there. That's fine. But when you remove a staple from the format, a card that enables numerous decks, you are looking for some serious trouble.
Just like WotC will not take a chance tinkering with the RL, they will not take a chance on ruining what is arguably the best format in Magic.
TLDR - BRAINSTORM WILL NEVER BE BANNED FOR AS LONG AS LEGACY AS A FORMAT EXISTS.
Deal with it or play something else if you're REALLY that unhappy with the current state of Legacy.
Now can we PLEASE BAN ANY TALK OF BRAINSTORM IN THIS THREAD????????
Not to get in the same old bull again, but if every mana producing card in your deck taps for Blue, your playing a Blue deck. Regardless of what other colours your using. To say that a deck must play only one colour to be that colour makes no sense. That's like saying Lands is not Green because Bog taps for Black, Karakas taps for White and you can use them for EE.
Not to get in the same old bull again, but if every mana producing card in your deck taps for Blue, your playing a Blue deck. Regardless of what other colours your using. To say that a deck must play only one colour to be that colour makes no sense. That's like saying Lands is not Green because Bog taps for Black, Karakas taps for White and you can use them for EE.
So Thresh is blue but U/R and Team America are less blue? This terminology is arbitrary, not descriptive ad useless. A deck that generates and uses three colours of mana is a three colored deck. That's descriptive in every way it can be. Your loaded defintion of 'blue deck' promotes an agenda.
I wasn't claiming that the deck was not three colours, I just said that I would call a Blue deck Blue and that would be spot on, unlike calling a Cat a Pig, something that seams most foolish.
Not to get into semantics, I can't be assed anymore, but if your running 20 Blue cards, an all Blue mana base and then a mix of 4 to 12 spells each from two other colours, your playing a Blue deck. That's not loaded, that's statistics. Yes, you have other colour but that doesn't stop you being Blue.
The reason for the MM ban as I have said a million times already but you just don't listen, was not because the format was too blue. It was because every deck REGARDLESS of color could play it. Legacy was turning into MM wars. One drops became the worst thing to play in a format where a low mana curve is critical for a format that is this fast. WotC's "public statement" was nothing but PR because had they admitted the REAL reason, they would have looked like total incompetents for allowing such a card to be printed. Their statement of "too blue" was to save face, just like their statement of "we can't talk about the RL" is to avoid the real reason they don't really want it gone. But that's for another thread.
You can assume whatever reason you like to assume... wizards officially said they banned the card because the format was too blue. I said it was a mistake on thier end to say that... but they did and as an INVESTED PLAYER IN THE LEGACY FORMAT I'M FORCED TO BELIEVE THAT WAS THE REASON FOR THE BANNING OF MENTAL MISSTEP.
In short, Legacy during the MM era was the worst time to be playing Magic, let alone Legacy, PERIOD. It was worse than Black Summer, Combo Winter, Affinity and Caw Blade all rolled into one. It was a NIGHTMARE.
I dont think it was... a nightmare is an opinion.
And yes, if Brainstorm is banned, the players will be up in arms. The card makes many decks (not just one) more consistent. As the poster above me said, the reason for a ban is to keep one deck from being oppressive, such as Survival decks. Brainstorm doesn't make one deck oppressive. It actually enables many decks to be top tier. Remove it from the format and you effectively weaken enough decks to piss off a lot of players.
This is the problem. I dont think it's true. If Bolt was banned today, sure it'll piss off burn players but burn is still freaking playable. Please name me one card (other then brainstorm) that has this hold... If banned players will threaten to quite? What about another format? There is no other card that has this hold because (and I'm freaking serious) I believe most of you guys that are saying it knows that brainstorm is busted and dont want to face reality.
As for oppressive... I pointed out that brainstorm builds are oppressive. Delver and Miracles are as oppressive as Survival decks. What are we going to do to fix this? Oh, wizards did by banning TC... really, they called out UR Delver and bans TC while most UR Delver players were already dropping the numbers of TC in thier deck because they learned that the card is over kill!
Now can we PLEASE BAN ANY TALK OF BRAINSTORM IN THIS THREAD????????
This makes no sense. If you dont want to talk about it then please dont talk about it. This thread is a soapbox for players to talk about what they think should be banned and what comes off the ban list. We have no power. it's a SOAPBOX... If you dont like the subject then dont reply.
And with that, we'll wait for the next B&R announcement to come out and for Brainstorm NOT to be on it and then maybe we can talk about something else besides.
Until we can have some other discussion, I nominate this as the most pointless thread next to the one on the RL.
Neither is going to go anywhere.
I am truly sorry for those of you who feel Brainstorm is oppressive and that it is ruining Legacy and making it a format that you clearly don't enjoy playing in.
Sadly, it isn't going to change.
I suggest, for your own enjoyment, that you finally accept that.
I can not help but wonder what a good solid debate between two intelligent people would look like over Brainstorm. Say you had a thread and only two people (Chosen ahead if time) could poat in. People could send the two "Debaters" messages to help formulate arguments and when it is all over the thread could be saved for prosperity.
I think this would be an ok plan, because the point of any good debate is not to win over your opponent but to sway your audience and I think that is a far more worthy goal than just throwing comments back and forth here.
Then you end up with two threads that would be adding nothing to the community. Not exactly a solution.
Not really. You end up with one thread going round cyclically, and the other where we can discuss, for example, Black Vise or Mindtwist being unbanned or some such, without having 50%-75%+ of the discussion on the blue spell that some people clearly do not want to talk about. Almost all the "health of the format" comments stem from those discussions. At the moment there is little room to discuss cards other than BS. MM has had more mentions on this thread than most of the banlist, and it is mentioned exclusively almost in connection with BS.
There isnt much to say about black vise and mindtwist.
Brainstorm, Mental Misstep, Survival, Show and Tell... those are hot cards. Brainstorm leads to pact because "Health of the Format" but in two questions.
I notice how you include two obviously busted cards, and then your two pet hate cards. Cute.
What is color balance? Wizards banned Mental Misstep to restore color balance and since the banning there is still more blue decks then ever before. (This is why brainstorm is forever cursed to be linked with Mental Misstep)
The thing is, you're the only one linking it, no one else sees the connection. That's just in your head.
Do wizards really believe if Brainstorm is banned the format folds? This is a bothersome question because too many players seem to say the same thing. Ban brainstorm the format folds (it'll kill lots of decks)... but on the other hand, those players call the card 'just a cantrip.'
This is why it's tedious to argue with you, you paint all opposition as a single person and then apply a position to it. Then, when the opposition disagrees, you just continue to apply that term, forever. No one is calling it a cantrip, that's not what it is. You'll of course interpret that as it being a 'free mulligan' because there isn't a different to you.
I know the format is not going to die with the banning of brainstorm, but I do believe wizards do believe this and that's why they are reluctant to talk about the problems of brainstorm.
What problems?
The only decks that will die with the banning of brainstorm is Miracles and Delver. Would the format be screwed? I think not. Here is why... Mental Misstep showed that legacy has a low mana curve, to the point that players believe that black vice seemed less a threat. Banning of brainstorm is not going to change the mana curve of the game. At worst, players might be using cards like Impulse.
What? Just what?
"Legacy has a low mana curve, therefore brainstorm isn't important"
What?
On the other hand, because brainstorm is legal, I've been noticing wizards slipping awesome hate bears that do hurt brainstorm use. I think it's awesome and I love to see more of them.
So, reasonably, there's little problem with the format, and WoTC is providing solutions to the problem you see. Why are you still so bothered by the existence of Brainstorm?
PS: The two questions I'd bolded are the reasons why I'm on the brainstorm topic. I'm not out to ban the card but I want to know the answer to those 2 questions.
That's falsehood. You're out to ban Brainstorm, you have stated repeatedly that you want it banned, and I bet in your next post you'll talk about how it should be banned.
Not to get in the same old bull again, but if every mana producing card in your deck taps for Blue, your playing a Blue deck. Regardless of what other colours your using.
To interject, the problem is when someone like Soldier uses such terminology to say that the entire format is blue, and only blue.
You can assume whatever reason you like to assume... wizards officially said they banned the card because the format was too blue. I said it was a mistake on thier end to say that... but they did and as an INVESTED PLAYER IN THE LEGACY FORMAT I'M FORCED TO BELIEVE THAT WAS THE REASON FOR THE BANNING OF MENTAL MISSTEP.
And yet you are too busy or blind to look at why the format was too blue, and realize that it is for two entirely different reasons. Good lord man. Besides, 'too blue' is nearly meaningless. The format is not too blue. That's impossible to contradict.
This is the problem. I dont think it's true. If Bolt was banned today, sure it'll piss off burn players but burn is still freaking playable. Please name me one card (other then brainstorm) that has this hold... If banned players will threaten to quite?
Delver of Secrets. Also, Bolt. Because, being an 'invested player in legacy' I would assume you know that it isn't just played in burn, because saying that, and trying to use it as a point would make you look uninformed and a bit silly.
What about another format?
Already happened in Modern with Pod.
There is no other card that has this hold because (and I'm freaking serious) I believe most of you guys that are saying it knows that brainstorm is busted and dont want to face reality.
So, it's busted, and we all know that it's busted, but you totally don't want it banned. Of course. That's reasonable.
As for oppressive... I pointed out that brainstorm builds are oppressive.
If by pointed out you mean asserted blindly without any sort of proof or argument, then you indeed have.
Delver and Miracles are as oppressive as Survival decks.
That is simply wrong. Wholly and completely wrong. Good Christ.
What are we going to do to fix this?
Nothing, what are we fixing?
This makes no sense. If you dont want to talk about it then please dont talk about it. This thread is a soapbox for players to talk about what they think should be banned and what comes off the ban list. We have no power. it's a SOAPBOX... If you dont like the subject then dont reply.
And here you're talking about how broken a card you totally don't want banned is. Why then are you here? Or can you finally drop this facade of pretending to not just being out to ban Brainstorm, and maybe field a productive volley of questions. Before you decide it's time once again to stop responding and disappear for a week, before repeating yourself again and repeating the process.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
This is what I wonder, and this doesn't apply to any one poster here in particular, but I wonder how many people playing Legacy today, who are against Brainstorm and want it banned, have been playing Legacy for any significant length of time?
Personally, I've been playing Magic since almost the beginning (end of Revised) and Legacy when it was Vintage. I have been through everything significant in this game (Black Summer, Combo Winter, Affinity and Cawblade) in terms of "Please dear God just put this game out of its misery." And Caw Blade, in comparison to Black Summer and Combo Winter was a cakewalk. Even those players don't truly know what busted and unfun is.
Anybody who has played Legacy for that long (at least since 2004 anyway) and thinks that Legacy is bad now and that Brainstorm is (1) the cause of the problem and (2) needs to be banned, clearly has no clue as to what bad really is and therefor cannot even be close to being taken seriously.
In the history of this format, we have had to deal with the likes of
Flash Hulk
Vengevine Survival
Others listed above.
Want to know what a nightmare is really like?
Go check out day 2 Standard back in 2003 and count the number of Tinker decks.
We had more decks represented in the top 16 of GPNJ 2014.
So clearly we need an education between "good" and "bad"
GPNJ 2014 = good
2003 Day 2 Standard = bad
We have gotten so spoiled with the incredible diversity of Legacy that we've forgotten what "Magic from hell" really is. And I can point to many more examples over the years of horrible times to be playing Magic, Standard, Extended or Legacy. Yes, Legacy has had its bad times.
This isn't even close to being one of them.
In fact, I'd say that over the course of the last 11 years the current Legacy environment easily ranks in the top 3.
But I'm a reasonable person. Somebody show me all the Legacy metas that were better than what we have now and please point to your sources for that info.
Convince me that the current Legacy is not diverse and really as bad as some people are making it out to be and I'll shut up about Brainstorm and let all the haters go on about how it should be banned, not that WotC is going to listen anyway.
You should use Legacy data, not the Standard or extended data from that time. I remember that Rotation, Tog out, Goblins takes over and then... Affinity in. I know there has been **** ups, that's not a secret, but you should use Legacy numbers, it seems fair to do it that way.
I think this entire thread is stuck in a time loop or something. If given enough time you will have the following three things happen:
1) Soldier talking about 1) banning Brainstorm, 2) that banning Mental Misstep was a mistake, and 3) unban Necropotence.
2) LandBoySteve say he's going to stop talking about something and that we should too, only to start talking about it again less than 12 hours later.
3) LandBoySteve using his "I've been playing Legacy for a long time" card to try to 1) justify his stance and 2) try to make others feel less of an expert.
I swear the two of you need your own thread so the rest of us can actually have an actual discussion about something relevant.
I think this entire thread is stuck in a time loop or something. If given enough time you will have the following three things happen:
1) Soldier talking about 1) banning Brainstorm, 2) that banning Mental Misstep was a mistake, and 3) unban Necropotence.
2) LandBoySteve say he's going to stop talking about something and that we should too, only to start talking about it again less than 12 hours later.
3) LandBoySteve using his "I've been playing Legacy for a long time" card to try to 1) justify his stance and 2) try to make others feel less of an expert.
I swear the two of you need your own thread so the rest of us can actually have a discussion about something relevant.
Hey, as far as I'm concerned I don't care if the word "B--------m" never comes out of my mouth again. But Soldier is like a dog with a bone. He won't let a doomed argument go. He's asking for a card to be banned that, if it were going to be banned, would have happened a long time ago. I mean certain when the last B&R came out and TC was banned, WotC had a chance to ban BS if that was indeed the true "cause" of the problem.
So you have to ask. Why didn't they?
Well, there can only be two answers to that question.
1) They didn't think BS was the cause of the problem and don't see it as a problem.
2) They didn't want to piss off the player base by essentially banning one of the poster boys for the format.
Either way, until the day comes when every deck in existence plays BS, WotC is clearly NOT going to ban the card.
So why are we constantly bringing the card up for banning?
I have tried to take this discussion in another direction. Look at my post from a few pages back where I listed all the cards that I thought were "safe" to come off the list. I was more than willing to discuss those cards or any other cards players felt were safe to unban.
But Soldier keeps coming back to BS like a dog with a bone and quite honestly, it's annoying as hell. I'm getting sick of it.
You want to discuss other cards? Let's. Ban the talk of Brainstorm in this thread. But as long as people keep bringing up the same tired half baked reasons why Brainstorm will be banned, I will continue to tell them why it won't be banned.
If you want this to stop, it needs to stop at the source.
I think this entire thread is stuck in a time loop or something. If given enough time you will have the following three things happen:
1) Soldier talking about 1) banning Brainstorm, 2) that banning Mental Misstep was a mistake, and 3) unban Necropotence.
2) LandBoySteve say he's going to stop talking about something and that we should too, only to start talking about it again less than 12 hours later.
3) LandBoySteve using his "I've been playing Legacy for a long time" card to try to 1) justify his stance and 2) try to make others feel less of an expert.
I swear the two of you need your own thread so the rest of us can actually have an actual discussion about something relevant.
Land, it takes two to tango. Leave him to talk to himself, the issue will go away. Why do you think I post so infrequently here these days, better for me that way.
I feel like there is a song from that Frozen movie on this... ***** it's in my head.
Land, it takes two to tango. Leave him to talk to himself, the issue will go away. Why do you think I post so infrequently here these days, better for me that way.
I feel like there is a song from that Frozen movie on this... ***** it's in my head.
Fair enough. Can we at least discuss something meaningful in the meantime? I'm open to just about anything.
I think this entire thread is stuck in a time loop or something. If given enough time you will have the following three things happen:
1) Soldier talking about 1) banning Brainstorm, 2) that banning Mental Misstep was a mistake, and 3) unban Necropotence.
2) LandBoySteve say he's going to stop talking about something and that we should too, only to start talking about it again less than 12 hours later.
3) LandBoySteve using his "I've been playing Legacy for a long time" card to try to 1) justify his stance and 2) try to make others feel less of an expert.
I swear the two of you need your own thread so the rest of us can actually have an actual discussion about something relevant.
You forgot him using anyone mentioning him as another way to talk about Brainstorm and the people discussing it.
Land, it takes two to tango. Leave him to talk to himself, the issue will go away. Why do you think I post so infrequently here these days, better for me that way.
I feel like there is a song from that Frozen movie on this... ***** it's in my head.
Fair enough. Can we at least discuss something meaningful in the meantime? I'm open to just about anything.
Goblin Recruiter. Why not? He's fantastically fun, and if the player doesn't suck, not too time intensive.
As well, even if the player sucks, the two decks spawned by him (New Foodchain and better goblins) are unlikely to be of such a power as to actually disrupt tournaments.
What do we need for Flash to not be suicide-inducing?
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
I think this entire thread is stuck in a time loop or something. If given enough time you will have the following three things happen:
1) Soldier talking about 1) banning Brainstorm, 2) that banning Mental Misstep was a mistake, and 3) unban Necropotence.
2) LandBoySteve say he's going to stop talking about something and that we should too, only to start talking about it again less than 12 hours later.
3) LandBoySteve using his "I've been playing Legacy for a long time" card to try to 1) justify his stance and 2) try to make others feel less of an expert.
I swear the two of you need your own thread so the rest of us can actually have an actual discussion about something relevant.
You forgot him using anyone mentioning him as another way to talk about Brainstorm and the people discussing it.
Land, it takes two to tango. Leave him to talk to himself, the issue will go away. Why do you think I post so infrequently here these days, better for me that way.
I feel like there is a song from that Frozen movie on this... ***** it's in my head.
Fair enough. Can we at least discuss something meaningful in the meantime? I'm open to just about anything.
Goblin Recruiter. Why not? He's fantastically fun, and if the player doesn't suck, not too time intensive.
As well, even if the player sucks, the two decks spawned by him (New Foodchain and better goblins) are unlikely to be of such a power as to actually disrupt tournaments.
What do we need for Flash to not be suicide-inducing?
I'm all for Recruiter. It'll make Goblins better, not that I think it will ever be a tier 1 deck again, and it will maybe spawn another competitive deck. This is another one of those cards that I think is stuck in the WotC time warp. It just isn't that good by today's standards.
Time wise, it won't be anymore of a problem than Ascendancy, Cheerios, High Tide, Solidarity or any other deck that takes forever to go off. In fact, it won't be as slow as some of the worst offenders.
Flash? You would need to ban too many cards. The last thing we want to see if turn 0 Flash Hulk again. I still have the original decklist somewhere and it's busted beyond belief. In fact, it is almost unanimously said to be the most busted deck in the history of Legacy.
I just don't see the card being saved without having to get rid of at least 2 cards to replace it on the banned list. In that case, it's just easier to keep Flash on the list.
I enjoyed MM legacy, Hive Mind was a solid choice to play. Goblins did pretty well I do believe if memory serves me well. I am glad TC got the axe it was warping the game. I would like to see the format even out a bit with time before more bannings or unbannings. I would love to see earthcraft unbanned to give a little shake up to elves, enchantress, and what other decks come from it. Also would love to see necro again but i know why it wont happen.
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currently playing:
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
First of all, in 50-50 matchups, winners would not be determined by play skill. They'd be determined by who got the better hand.
A 50-50 match up does not mean games are determined by luck. Here are two examples as counterpoints to your statements:
1) A deck like Jund or Junk is often described as having a 50-50 match-up against the field. What this means is that they have no terrible match-ups, but they also don't have any auto-win match-ups. Games with these decks are generally grindy, drawn-out affairs. Wins are often the result of skillful play, and outcomes are strongly influenced far more by a player's experience than by luck.
2) A mirror match is by definition a 50-50 match-up. I don't think I've ever heard a control mirror described as luck based. They are skill-intensive affairs that take a lot of forethought and knowledge to win. The same is generally true for midrange mirrors, tempo mirrors, many aggro mirrors, and some slow combo mirrors.
It seems like you're making the assumption that two decks that are 50-50 are simply playing past each other. Are you assuming there is no interaction? Are you assuming that games are over too quickly for skill to matter? These are problems primarily with fast combo mirrors or a few aggro mirrors. For the most part, 50-50 matches are interesting challenges.
A simple example of the last idea is a meta with three decks - combo, aggro, and control. Aggro is 65/35 against control, but 35/65 against combo. Combo is 35/65 against control. Each deck is equally well positioned with an average win-rate of 50%, but meta-gaming is still paramount.
Meta-gaming should not be paramount, at least not in the way you describe. That's the exact problem that some pros are complaining about in Modern right now. Their argument is that individual games are too much of a landslide in one way or the other. That makes for terrible Magic. See this article for more info: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-problem-with-modern/
I'm honestly not sure why you are drawn to Legacy in the first place?
There are many things I enjoy about Legacy. This thread is focused on one aspect of the format: the ban list. By the thread's nature, discussion here will tend to skew negative.
Back to an old point- the "blueness" of the meta seems very linked to location- US seems "bluer", and more dedicated to playing the 54% win decks rather than 47% win decks- and with a nice event circus like SCG, you can see why.
In a larger event playing force of will x4 is always a good option. Nobody wants to lose to random Belcher t1 on the draw. Four FOW help stop that. In a longer event playing a quicker deck is useful too- more info, and more breaks. Which is still blue-ish, thanks to Delver, Show and Tell, Infect, Reanimator etc. In shorter events with lower prizes the metas seem to diversify, and to be honest in the events I have seen are won by a greater variety of decks, many of which you would not fancy over 8+ rounds or if the prizes were larger.
I know that people I know consider playing what they enjoy and know well to be more important than jumping on a deck with marginally better percentages. I met a young competitive player at an FNM event, his first sanctioned Legacy event, recently- playing ANT. Even after he resolved no spells (well maybe one) in our match I asked about his deck choice- and he said simply "I love playing the deck", and not "it is the best deck" or "I beat xyz". Had that been Standard he would not have given that answer. Legacy is, for me, fantastic, and would be fantastic with or without BS- not that I want it banned or otherwise.
I can not help but wonder what a good solid debate between two intelligent people would look like over Brainstorm.
It would look a lot like a theoretical discussion about banning philosophies. Many people who do not want a BS ban (including myself) hold the following views:
Colour equilibrium is not very important to the health of a meta-game, as long as every colour is contributing. Seriously, there is no single colour that could be banned in its entirety without rendering Legacy unrecognizable.
Card density is not relevant to the health of a meta, as long as many different archetypes (of varying play-styles) are competitively viable.
WotC should ever ban cards when the meta is healthy - even if banning cards would make it "even more healthy". You could call this a minimal banned list philosophy.
If this is my perspective, there is not a single fact about Brainstorm or the current meta which would convince me we need a card banned! To get me to "come around", you would have to change my mind about one of the three points above.
Sadly, nobody who wants Brainstorm banned seems to want to address these points. Instead we hear all about how powerful BS is, that it's "warping the format" (with no explanation as to what 'warped' even means), all the fair decks that might be more competitive if they weren't outclassed by the fair decks packing Brainstorm, and how there are no truly competitive decks which don't run BS. These points are generally exaggerated (usually grossly so), and do not address the real issue of what constitutes an unhealthy meta and under what circumstances cards should be banned in the first place.
Those questions are highly subjective and grounded in personal opinion. Once we determine that the issue comes down to personal opinion regarding meta health and a hands-on vs a hands-off banned list, the conversation will reach an impasse and we will have to agree to disagree. That's maybe why the BS haters don't want to take the argument that direction - they want us to accept that BS is broken as a fact, not based on subjective banned list philosophies.
Meta-gaming should not be paramount, at least not in the way you describe. That's the exact problem that some pros are complaining about in Modern right now. Their argument is that individual games are too much of a landslide in one way or the other. That makes for terrible Magic.
Everyone has an opinion!
Many pros suck at meta-gaming. They want to be able to research the "best deck" and have favourable matches the whole way through. Meta-gaming you can't just look up! It takes skill When meta-gaming is not required, there is zero skill involved in deck/card selection - just cut & paste! Naturally pros who lack this skill will want it taken out of the game.
Other people can't see a big picture. In a 50/50 match, if you outplay your opponent you will win more than you lose. In fact, you'll win every time you have average or better luck. But if your match is 35/65 against, you can outplay your opponent and still lose! This frustrates people because they are too outcome-focused and dwell on the short term. Everyone knows that turning a 50/50 match into a 55/45 match (via superior skill) is good. But if you can turn your 30/70 matches into 37/63, and your 70/30 matches into 73/27 - that's just as good! Using skill to win games and matches which a weaker player would have lost is just as valuable in a skewed match-up environment as it is in a even match-up environment. The only difference is short term variance (which many players, even good ones, can't see past).
I feel that skewed match-ups is the necessary result of an open format where different decks attack the game from different axes. In a diverse format, it is nearly impossible for a deck to be good against every other strategy. In order to fill the field with even matches, you need decks all doing the same basic thing. Matches can still be tactically very rich, but strategically unvaried. In my opinion, that makes for terrible Magic!
Not to get into semantics, I can't be assed anymore, but if your running 20 Blue cards, an all Blue mana base and then a mix of 4 to 12 spells each from two other colours, your playing a Blue deck. That's not loaded, that's statistics. Yes, you have other colour but that doesn't stop you being Blue.
That's fine. But if you want to compare the roles of various colours in this format, you can't dismiss those other coloured spells (without which the deck would be terrible). Not if you want to be accurate.
Spam warning issued both for posting multiple times in a row in a short timeframe and for making several off-topic posts. Posts merged.
- Teia
Not really. You end up with one thread going round cyclically, and the other where we can discuss, for example, Black Vise or Mindtwist being unbanned or some such, without having 50%-75%+ of the discussion on the blue spell that some people clearly do not want to talk about. Almost all the "health of the format" comments stem from those discussions. At the moment there is little room to discuss cards other than BS. MM has had more mentions on this thread than most of the banlist, and it is mentioned exclusively almost in connection with BS.
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B EDH Relentless Rats
There isnt much to say about black vise and mindtwist.
Brainstorm, Mental Misstep, Survival, Show and Tell... those are hot cards. Brainstorm leads to pact because "Health of the Format" but in two questions.
What is color balance? Wizards banned Mental Misstep to restore color balance and since the banning there is still more blue decks then ever before. (This is why brainstorm is forever cursed to be linked with Mental Misstep)
Do wizards really believe if Brainstorm is banned the format folds? This is a bothersome question because too many players seem to say the same thing. Ban brainstorm the format folds (it'll kill lots of decks)... but on the other hand, those players call the card 'just a cantrip.' I know the format is not going to die with the banning of brainstorm, but I do believe wizards do believe this and that's why they are reluctant to talk about the problems of brainstorm. The only decks that will die with the banning of brainstorm is Miracles and Delver. Would the format be screwed? I think not. Here is why... Mental Misstep showed that legacy has a low mana curve, to the point that players believe that black vice seemed less a threat. Banning of brainstorm is not going to change the mana curve of the game. At worst, players might be using cards like Impulse.
On the other hand, because brainstorm is legal, I've been noticing wizards slipping awesome hate bears that do hurt brainstorm use. I think it's awesome and I love to see more of them.
PS: The two questions I'd bolded are the reasons why I'm on the brainstorm topic. I'm not out to ban the card but I want to know the answer to those 2 questions.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
There is an old saying, a dog with a bone.
Anyway, to answer your 2 questions.
1) Color balance is when all colors are equally viable in a format. Where one color isn't played to the exclusion of all others. Blue (mono blue) does NOT dominate Legacy. We have 4 mono blue decks and only ONE of them is any good.
High Tide
Solidarity
Merfolk
Omni Tell
All other decks that play blue play other colors in addition to blue. You can call them blue decks all you want. They are not. Calling a pig a cat doesn't make it a pig. It is still a cat.
Conversely, we have burn, which is mono red and a top tier deck. It's cheap, so lots of people can play it and be competitive. This is WONDERFUL for Legacy. We have DnT which is another top tier deck which is mono white. We have elves which, aside from 2 cards (DRS and AD) is a green deck. You have MUD which is colorless. You have Lands which defies all color barriers, more or less. You have Dredge which is another "non Magic" deck.
You have so much diversity in this format it's mind boggling. Legacy, in its entire history has NEVER been healthier. Point me to a more diverse meta than what we have now. I dare you.
The reason for the MM ban as I have said a million times already but you just don't listen, was not because the format was too blue. It was because every deck REGARDLESS of color could play it. Legacy was turning into MM wars. One drops became the worst thing to play in a format where a low mana curve is critical for a format that is this fast. WotC's "public statement" was nothing but PR because had they admitted the REAL reason, they would have looked like total incompetents for allowing such a card to be printed. Their statement of "too blue" was to save face, just like their statement of "we can't talk about the RL" is to avoid the real reason they don't really want it gone. But that's for another thread.
In short, Legacy during the MM era was the worst time to be playing Magic, let alone Legacy, PERIOD. It was worse than Black Summer, Combo Winter, Affinity and Caw Blade all rolled into one. It was a NIGHTMARE.
You cannot POSSIBLY compare the existence of Brainstorm in this format to that of MM. The two cards aren't even in the same ballpark. When MM hit Legacy I called it almost immediately that it would be banned. I had NO DOUBT IN MY MIND. The card was an abomination and should have NEVER BEEN PRINTED.
No comparison between the two cards.
And yes, if Brainstorm is banned, the players will be up in arms. The card makes many decks (not just one) more consistent. As the poster above me said, the reason for a ban is to keep one deck from being oppressive, such as Survival decks. Brainstorm doesn't make one deck oppressive. It actually enables many decks to be top tier. Remove it from the format and you effectively weaken enough decks to piss off a lot of players.
That is NOT what you want for a format that is its healthiest it has been since type 1.5 was established.
I can live with WotC living in the stone ages and keeping relics on the banned list that shouldn't be there. That's fine. But when you remove a staple from the format, a card that enables numerous decks, you are looking for some serious trouble.
Just like WotC will not take a chance tinkering with the RL, they will not take a chance on ruining what is arguably the best format in Magic.
TLDR - BRAINSTORM WILL NEVER BE BANNED FOR AS LONG AS LEGACY AS A FORMAT EXISTS.
Deal with it or play something else if you're REALLY that unhappy with the current state of Legacy.
Now can we PLEASE BAN ANY TALK OF BRAINSTORM IN THIS THREAD????????
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
So Thresh is blue but U/R and Team America are less blue? This terminology is arbitrary, not descriptive ad useless. A deck that generates and uses three colours of mana is a three colored deck. That's descriptive in every way it can be. Your loaded defintion of 'blue deck' promotes an agenda.
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RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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Not to get into semantics, I can't be assed anymore, but if your running 20 Blue cards, an all Blue mana base and then a mix of 4 to 12 spells each from two other colours, your playing a Blue deck. That's not loaded, that's statistics. Yes, you have other colour but that doesn't stop you being Blue.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
You can assume whatever reason you like to assume... wizards officially said they banned the card because the format was too blue. I said it was a mistake on thier end to say that... but they did and as an INVESTED PLAYER IN THE LEGACY FORMAT I'M FORCED TO BELIEVE THAT WAS THE REASON FOR THE BANNING OF MENTAL MISSTEP.
I dont think it was... a nightmare is an opinion.
This is the problem. I dont think it's true. If Bolt was banned today, sure it'll piss off burn players but burn is still freaking playable. Please name me one card (other then brainstorm) that has this hold... If banned players will threaten to quite? What about another format? There is no other card that has this hold because (and I'm freaking serious) I believe most of you guys that are saying it knows that brainstorm is busted and dont want to face reality.
As for oppressive... I pointed out that brainstorm builds are oppressive. Delver and Miracles are as oppressive as Survival decks. What are we going to do to fix this? Oh, wizards did by banning TC... really, they called out UR Delver and bans TC while most UR Delver players were already dropping the numbers of TC in thier deck because they learned that the card is over kill!
This makes no sense. If you dont want to talk about it then please dont talk about it. This thread is a soapbox for players to talk about what they think should be banned and what comes off the ban list. We have no power. it's a SOAPBOX... If you dont like the subject then dont reply.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
And with that, we'll wait for the next B&R announcement to come out and for Brainstorm NOT to be on it and then maybe we can talk about something else besides.
Until we can have some other discussion, I nominate this as the most pointless thread next to the one on the RL.
Neither is going to go anywhere.
I am truly sorry for those of you who feel Brainstorm is oppressive and that it is ruining Legacy and making it a format that you clearly don't enjoy playing in.
Sadly, it isn't going to change.
I suggest, for your own enjoyment, that you finally accept that.
Or not.
It's YOUR choice.
I've made mine.
I think this would be an ok plan, because the point of any good debate is not to win over your opponent but to sway your audience and I think that is a far more worthy goal than just throwing comments back and forth here.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
I notice how you include two obviously busted cards, and then your two pet hate cards. Cute.
The thing is, you're the only one linking it, no one else sees the connection. That's just in your head.
This is why it's tedious to argue with you, you paint all opposition as a single person and then apply a position to it. Then, when the opposition disagrees, you just continue to apply that term, forever. No one is calling it a cantrip, that's not what it is. You'll of course interpret that as it being a 'free mulligan' because there isn't a different to you.
What problems?
What? Just what?
"Legacy has a low mana curve, therefore brainstorm isn't important"
What?
So, reasonably, there's little problem with the format, and WoTC is providing solutions to the problem you see. Why are you still so bothered by the existence of Brainstorm?
That's falsehood. You're out to ban Brainstorm, you have stated repeatedly that you want it banned, and I bet in your next post you'll talk about how it should be banned.
To interject, the problem is when someone like Soldier uses such terminology to say that the entire format is blue, and only blue.
And yet you are too busy or blind to look at why the format was too blue, and realize that it is for two entirely different reasons. Good lord man. Besides, 'too blue' is nearly meaningless. The format is not too blue. That's impossible to contradict.
Delver of Secrets. Also, Bolt. Because, being an 'invested player in legacy' I would assume you know that it isn't just played in burn, because saying that, and trying to use it as a point would make you look uninformed and a bit silly.
Already happened in Modern with Pod.
So, it's busted, and we all know that it's busted, but you totally don't want it banned. Of course. That's reasonable.
If by pointed out you mean asserted blindly without any sort of proof or argument, then you indeed have.
That is simply wrong. Wholly and completely wrong. Good Christ.
Nothing, what are we fixing?
And here you're talking about how broken a card you totally don't want banned is. Why then are you here? Or can you finally drop this facade of pretending to not just being out to ban Brainstorm, and maybe field a productive volley of questions. Before you decide it's time once again to stop responding and disappear for a week, before repeating yourself again and repeating the process.
Personally, I've been playing Magic since almost the beginning (end of Revised) and Legacy when it was Vintage. I have been through everything significant in this game (Black Summer, Combo Winter, Affinity and Cawblade) in terms of "Please dear God just put this game out of its misery." And Caw Blade, in comparison to Black Summer and Combo Winter was a cakewalk. Even those players don't truly know what busted and unfun is.
Anybody who has played Legacy for that long (at least since 2004 anyway) and thinks that Legacy is bad now and that Brainstorm is (1) the cause of the problem and (2) needs to be banned, clearly has no clue as to what bad really is and therefor cannot even be close to being taken seriously.
In the history of this format, we have had to deal with the likes of
Flash Hulk
Vengevine Survival
Others listed above.
Want to know what a nightmare is really like?
Go check out day 2 Standard back in 2003 and count the number of Tinker decks.
In fact, here's a tally of the top decks.
Tinker - 32
Psychatog - 9
Gobvantage - 19
Charbelcher - 24
Food Chain Goblins - 9
Angry Hermit - 8
This out of 112 decks.
101 out of 112 decks were 6 lousy decks.
We had more decks represented in the top 16 of GPNJ 2014.
So clearly we need an education between "good" and "bad"
GPNJ 2014 = good
2003 Day 2 Standard = bad
We have gotten so spoiled with the incredible diversity of Legacy that we've forgotten what "Magic from hell" really is. And I can point to many more examples over the years of horrible times to be playing Magic, Standard, Extended or Legacy. Yes, Legacy has had its bad times.
This isn't even close to being one of them.
In fact, I'd say that over the course of the last 11 years the current Legacy environment easily ranks in the top 3.
But I'm a reasonable person. Somebody show me all the Legacy metas that were better than what we have now and please point to your sources for that info.
Convince me that the current Legacy is not diverse and really as bad as some people are making it out to be and I'll shut up about Brainstorm and let all the haters go on about how it should be banned, not that WotC is going to listen anyway.
I'm all ears.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
1) Soldier talking about 1) banning Brainstorm, 2) that banning Mental Misstep was a mistake, and 3) unban Necropotence.
2) LandBoySteve say he's going to stop talking about something and that we should too, only to start talking about it again less than 12 hours later.
3) LandBoySteve using his "I've been playing Legacy for a long time" card to try to 1) justify his stance and 2) try to make others feel less of an expert.
I swear the two of you need your own thread so the rest of us can actually have an actual discussion about something relevant.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Hey, as far as I'm concerned I don't care if the word "B--------m" never comes out of my mouth again. But Soldier is like a dog with a bone. He won't let a doomed argument go. He's asking for a card to be banned that, if it were going to be banned, would have happened a long time ago. I mean certain when the last B&R came out and TC was banned, WotC had a chance to ban BS if that was indeed the true "cause" of the problem.
So you have to ask. Why didn't they?
Well, there can only be two answers to that question.
1) They didn't think BS was the cause of the problem and don't see it as a problem.
2) They didn't want to piss off the player base by essentially banning one of the poster boys for the format.
Either way, until the day comes when every deck in existence plays BS, WotC is clearly NOT going to ban the card.
So why are we constantly bringing the card up for banning?
I have tried to take this discussion in another direction. Look at my post from a few pages back where I listed all the cards that I thought were "safe" to come off the list. I was more than willing to discuss those cards or any other cards players felt were safe to unban.
But Soldier keeps coming back to BS like a dog with a bone and quite honestly, it's annoying as hell. I'm getting sick of it.
You want to discuss other cards? Let's. Ban the talk of Brainstorm in this thread. But as long as people keep bringing up the same tired half baked reasons why Brainstorm will be banned, I will continue to tell them why it won't be banned.
If you want this to stop, it needs to stop at the source.
best post ever
I feel like there is a song from that Frozen movie on this... ***** it's in my head.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Fair enough. Can we at least discuss something meaningful in the meantime? I'm open to just about anything.
You forgot him using anyone mentioning him as another way to talk about Brainstorm and the people discussing it.
Goblin Recruiter. Why not? He's fantastically fun, and if the player doesn't suck, not too time intensive.
As well, even if the player sucks, the two decks spawned by him (New Foodchain and better goblins) are unlikely to be of such a power as to actually disrupt tournaments.
What do we need for Flash to not be suicide-inducing?
I'm all for Recruiter. It'll make Goblins better, not that I think it will ever be a tier 1 deck again, and it will maybe spawn another competitive deck. This is another one of those cards that I think is stuck in the WotC time warp. It just isn't that good by today's standards.
Time wise, it won't be anymore of a problem than Ascendancy, Cheerios, High Tide, Solidarity or any other deck that takes forever to go off. In fact, it won't be as slow as some of the worst offenders.
Flash? You would need to ban too many cards. The last thing we want to see if turn 0 Flash Hulk again. I still have the original decklist somewhere and it's busted beyond belief. In fact, it is almost unanimously said to be the most busted deck in the history of Legacy.
I just don't see the card being saved without having to get rid of at least 2 cards to replace it on the banned list. In that case, it's just easier to keep Flash on the list.
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
A 50-50 match up does not mean games are determined by luck. Here are two examples as counterpoints to your statements:
1) A deck like Jund or Junk is often described as having a 50-50 match-up against the field. What this means is that they have no terrible match-ups, but they also don't have any auto-win match-ups. Games with these decks are generally grindy, drawn-out affairs. Wins are often the result of skillful play, and outcomes are strongly influenced far more by a player's experience than by luck.
2) A mirror match is by definition a 50-50 match-up. I don't think I've ever heard a control mirror described as luck based. They are skill-intensive affairs that take a lot of forethought and knowledge to win. The same is generally true for midrange mirrors, tempo mirrors, many aggro mirrors, and some slow combo mirrors.
It seems like you're making the assumption that two decks that are 50-50 are simply playing past each other. Are you assuming there is no interaction? Are you assuming that games are over too quickly for skill to matter? These are problems primarily with fast combo mirrors or a few aggro mirrors. For the most part, 50-50 matches are interesting challenges.
Meta-gaming should not be paramount, at least not in the way you describe. That's the exact problem that some pros are complaining about in Modern right now. Their argument is that individual games are too much of a landslide in one way or the other. That makes for terrible Magic. See this article for more info: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-problem-with-modern/
There are many things I enjoy about Legacy. This thread is focused on one aspect of the format: the ban list. By the thread's nature, discussion here will tend to skew negative.
In a larger event playing force of will x4 is always a good option. Nobody wants to lose to random Belcher t1 on the draw. Four FOW help stop that. In a longer event playing a quicker deck is useful too- more info, and more breaks. Which is still blue-ish, thanks to Delver, Show and Tell, Infect, Reanimator etc. In shorter events with lower prizes the metas seem to diversify, and to be honest in the events I have seen are won by a greater variety of decks, many of which you would not fancy over 8+ rounds or if the prizes were larger.
I know that people I know consider playing what they enjoy and know well to be more important than jumping on a deck with marginally better percentages. I met a young competitive player at an FNM event, his first sanctioned Legacy event, recently- playing ANT. Even after he resolved no spells (well maybe one) in our match I asked about his deck choice- and he said simply "I love playing the deck", and not "it is the best deck" or "I beat xyz". Had that been Standard he would not have given that answer. Legacy is, for me, fantastic, and would be fantastic with or without BS- not that I want it banned or otherwise.
Sadly, nobody who wants Brainstorm banned seems to want to address these points. Instead we hear all about how powerful BS is, that it's "warping the format" (with no explanation as to what 'warped' even means), all the fair decks that might be more competitive if they weren't outclassed by the fair decks packing Brainstorm, and how there are no truly competitive decks which don't run BS. These points are generally exaggerated (usually grossly so), and do not address the real issue of what constitutes an unhealthy meta and under what circumstances cards should be banned in the first place.
Those questions are highly subjective and grounded in personal opinion. Once we determine that the issue comes down to personal opinion regarding meta health and a hands-on vs a hands-off banned list, the conversation will reach an impasse and we will have to agree to disagree. That's maybe why the BS haters don't want to take the argument that direction - they want us to accept that BS is broken as a fact, not based on subjective banned list philosophies.
Everyone has an opinion!
Many pros suck at meta-gaming. They want to be able to research the "best deck" and have favourable matches the whole way through. Meta-gaming you can't just look up! It takes skill When meta-gaming is not required, there is zero skill involved in deck/card selection - just cut & paste! Naturally pros who lack this skill will want it taken out of the game.
Other people can't see a big picture. In a 50/50 match, if you outplay your opponent you will win more than you lose. In fact, you'll win every time you have average or better luck. But if your match is 35/65 against, you can outplay your opponent and still lose! This frustrates people because they are too outcome-focused and dwell on the short term. Everyone knows that turning a 50/50 match into a 55/45 match (via superior skill) is good. But if you can turn your 30/70 matches into 37/63, and your 70/30 matches into 73/27 - that's just as good! Using skill to win games and matches which a weaker player would have lost is just as valuable in a skewed match-up environment as it is in a even match-up environment. The only difference is short term variance (which many players, even good ones, can't see past).
I feel that skewed match-ups is the necessary result of an open format where different decks attack the game from different axes. In a diverse format, it is nearly impossible for a deck to be good against every other strategy. In order to fill the field with even matches, you need decks all doing the same basic thing. Matches can still be tactically very rich, but strategically unvaried. In my opinion, that makes for terrible Magic!
That's fine. But if you want to compare the roles of various colours in this format, you can't dismiss those other coloured spells (without which the deck would be terrible). Not if you want to be accurate.
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- Teia
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
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UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats