@DunstilBrejik Nobody is going to quite Legacy if Brainstorm is banned.
How could you possibly know that? Remember that in legacy, having to overhaul a deck isn't just an inconvenience, it's a serious financial commitment.
If Brainstorm is banned it'll be based on how the format became. The talk about banning brainstorm has been for years, even though I do point out how awesome the card is - I still dont want it banned.
What changed your mind about Brainstorm?
I didnt want Survival and Mental Misstep banned either. I believe Legacy should be the best of the best.
You've spoken of how the MM ban was deserving and how you would have preferred BS to be banned over it however.
But I dont like the idea that the format is hijacked by one card.
Which isn't happening
If U/R delver is freaking awesome and dominates the format; it's not because of TC it's because of brainstorm.
That's just wrong. If U/R delver continues to dominate the format, and all that's changed is the addition of TC and Swiftspear, one of those is to blame.
Sure there is synergy with Brainstorm with miracles... (mostly because you have the advantage of instant speed, 1cc so you can slip it thru) but interaction is still a combo.
It's not a combo, and BS isn't what allows Miracles to work. Counter Balance and Top are what allow Miracles to work. Some versions are even going back in time, cutting many of the miracles, including only Terminus. Synergy isn't a combo, they'll wholly separate ideas.
CAll it whatever you like. The interaction of brainstorm with Delver and Miracles is a combo! I do think your comment is a flame and I dont like it!
By your definition he's right. Lands and Spells, according to you are a combo. Therefore the meta should be completely recalculated, every deck in it is a combo deck.
You either need to accept that or adjust your definition greatly.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
I'm sorry you don't like holes in your position being pointed out then.
Edit
Also I think that makes it clear you know what a combo actually is.
In fairness, the term "combo" has been rather stretched over the years. For example, infect is often referred to as a combo deck. I don't necessarily agree but whatever. The narrow lines of definitions don't really exist anymore in a lot of areas of the game. How this came to be is immaterial. It is what it is. I stopped caring when people started calling Legacy Goblins a control deck.
None of this, mind you, has anything to do with why a card will or won't be banned.
Infect isn't a combo because it has synergy between cards, it's because there's a cluster of spells the deck wishes to cast in order to circumvent general strategy and kill along a mostly unique axis.
Goblins is a control deck because of the huge amount of mana denial it runs.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
I'm sorry you don't like holes in your position being pointed out then.
Edit
Also I think that makes it clear you know what a combo actually is.
In fairness, the term "combo" has been rather stretched over the years. For example, infect is often referred to as a combo deck. I don't necessarily agree but whatever. The narrow lines of definitions don't really exist anymore in a lot of areas of the game. How this came to be is immaterial. It is what it is. I stopped caring when people started calling Legacy Goblins a control deck.
None of this, mind you, has anything to do with why a card will or won't be banned.
Infect isn't a combo because it has synergy between cards, it's because there's a cluster of spells the deck wishes to cast in order to circumvent general strategy and kill along a mostly unique axis.
Goblins is a control deck because of the huge amount of mana denial it runs.
So I guess you've never seen a Goblin deck totally beat down on somebody. Maybe you should read "Who's The Beatdown." But like I said, I don't really care anymore. People can call decks whatever they like. Archtypes almost have no meaning anymore when creature based decks can be called combo and control.
So I guess you've never seen a Goblin deck totally beat down on somebody. Maybe you should read "Who's The Beatdown." But like I said, I don't really care anymore. People can call decks whatever they like. Archtypes almost have no meaning anymore when creature based decks can be called combo and control.
I'm simply giving you the reasoning behind why the deck is called such, it didn't just come out of the blue. Creature based decks can also totally be combo or control. PainterStone's a combo deck, still creature focused. D&T's also a creature focused deck, still a control deck.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
People can call decks whatever they like. Archtypes almost have no meaning anymore when creature based decks can be called combo and control.
You do realize that creatures can (shock and horror!) have functions that are more than just beating down, right?
Take Elves! for example. It's basically a Storm deck that gets to add on creature spells cast prior to the current turn in its win condition. Just because sometimes you win games without Hoof doesn't change the fact that if you try to play it like a straight aggro deck, it's going to be really suboptimal.
What type a card is has nothing to do with whether it's an aggro, combo, or control card. All three types of decks play instants...and sorceries...and utility lands...I'm sure I could even find examples based around artifacts if I tried. You sound like the kind of player who wants to go back to the days when all combo and control decks played 0 creatures because "creature" was a garbage card type compared to literally everything else.
Goblins is control aggro. Occasionally it does goldfish a fast win. Usually it just grinds though with one of the best draw spells in the format alongside one of the best tutors in the format (goblin ringleader and goblin matron, respectively.)
I ignored Soldier a long time ago. Just reading some of these quote's of his make me cringe. Delver + brainstorm = combo? It's called synergy. A combo is something like reanimate/show and tell griselbrand, 9 storm count + tendrils via a lethal spell chain, jeskai ascendancy + 1 drop instants/sorceries + mana dork. It isn't that hard to categorize.
I would bet money that even if brainstorm was banned cruise would still dominate the format. The raw power of cruise is insanely high as are the cards that are still backing it up (ponder, preordain, probe, force, delver, swiftspear, young pyromancer, bolt, etc. etc.) Cruise is the real problem. Dig through time might be a legitimate problem too not much data on that card yet but that card is also insanely powerful.
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So I guess you've never seen a Goblin deck totally beat down on somebody. Maybe you should read "Who's The Beatdown." But like I said, I don't really care anymore. People can call decks whatever they like. Archtypes almost have no meaning anymore when creature based decks can be called combo and control.
You're not really helping your case when you show ignorance into something as common as Goblins having a Control element to it. Yes they kill you with creatures, but so does Death and Taxes, which is also another Control deck that relies on mana denial (hence the Taxes part). If Goblins were a pure aggro deck, why run Rishadan Port and Wasteland in conjunction with Vials?
Back on topic and also to play Devil's Advocate, 3 of the Top 8 at the last SCG were U/R Delver. More importantly, the winning deck was running maindeck Pyroblasts. My friend got 2nd at SCG Minneapolis and was playing Miracles with maindeck RIP. These are all changes in the meta to shutdown Treasure Cruise. That's great and frankly what Legacy is about (adapting), but one could just as easily argue that it's warping the format around itself. Especially when you need to run main deck pyroblasts in something like Jund just to be competitive.
Goblins is control aggro. Occasionally it does goldfish a fast win. Usually it just grinds though with one of the best draw spells in the format alongside one of the best tutors in the format (goblin ringleader and goblin matron, respectively.)
I'd say Goblins is closer to an aggressive midrange deck. It's secondary plan of grinding someone down with card advantage is more similar to Jund or Maverick than a true control strategy.
So I guess you've never seen a Goblin deck totally beat down on somebody. Maybe you should read "Who's The Beatdown." But like I said, I don't really care anymore. People can call decks whatever they like. Archtypes almost have no meaning anymore when creature based decks can be called combo and control.
You're not really helping your case when you show ignorance into something as common as Goblins having a Control element to it. Yes they kill you with creatures, but so does Death and Taxes, which is also another Control deck that relies on mana denial (hence the Taxes part). If Goblins were a pure aggro deck, why run Rishadan Port and Wasteland in conjunction with Vials?
Well, I think his complaint may be calling Goblins a control deck rather than just saying it has control elements. I could be wrong, though.
Death & Taxes is a much better example of an actual control deck that runs a lot of creatures.
Goblins is no more a Control deck than Fish is. It just happens that, at the hight of goblins strength, slowing down someone so you can get your card advantage engine online was a effective strategy. It was controlling yes but only for the little amount it had to be to supplement it's main plan.
Goblins flaw though is, paradoxically, that so much of its strength was tied up in this plan that once the format speed up, the deck was no longer competitive. Since now you can not slow someone down enough to drop you 4th and 5th turn bombs and start the ball rolling. You just dead before then now.
So I guess you've never seen a Goblin deck totally beat down on somebody. Maybe you should read "Who's The Beatdown." But like I said, I don't really care anymore. People can call decks whatever they like. Archtypes almost have no meaning anymore when creature based decks can be called combo and control.
You're not really helping your case when you show ignorance into something as common as Goblins having a Control element to it. Yes they kill you with creatures, but so does Death and Taxes, which is also another Control deck that relies on mana denial (hence the Taxes part). If Goblins were a pure aggro deck, why run Rishadan Port and Wasteland in conjunction with Vials?
Back on topic and also to play Devil's Advocate, 3 of the Top 8 at the last SCG were U/R Delver. More importantly, the winning deck was running maindeck Pyroblasts. My friend got 2nd at SCG Minneapolis and was playing Miracles with maindeck RIP. These are all changes in the meta to shutdown Treasure Cruise. That's great and frankly what Legacy is about (adapting), but one could just as easily argue that it's warping the format around itself. Especially when you need to run main deck pyroblasts in something like Jund just to be competitive.
You're right. I am ignorant. How dare I even attempt to discuss a game that I've been playing for over 20 years. What was I thinking? Shame on me. (Landboy go back in your corner and tear up 20 Black Lotus as your penance.)
Back on topic. Regardless of what role a deck has (immaterial to the conversation) Delver, which I guess is the main deck using TC, will survive just fine without it. A ban won't do a thing to the current state of Legacy. At least nothing significant. Delver won't suddenly become a tier 2 deck and a half a dozen new decks won't suddenly start getting played.
Ultimately, all it will do is appease those who are unhappy with the card. If that is the DCI's goal and enough of a reason for a ban, it'll be done. I say sooner than later. Don't drag this thing out. The longer they allow the card to remain in Legacy the bigger the backlash when it does get banned. Remember, people invest a lot of money into their decks and it is quite possible that many will start playing Delver because of this card. Hype is sometimes more important than substance and thus this could turn into a self fulfilling prophesy.
Back on topic and also to play Devil's Advocate, 3 of the Top 8 at the last SCG were U/R Delver. More importantly, the winning deck was running maindeck Pyroblasts.
And there were zero U/R Delver lists in the top eight at Eternal Festival in Tokyo a week before. No good looking at just one event! Here's the Top eight breakdown since TC hot the scene:
U/R Delver x10
Miracles x9
Elves x7
Team America x4
Reanimator x4
Sneak Show x4
Patriot Blade x4
Candaian Thresh x4
Death Blade x3
Dredge x3
Lands x2
Storm x2
Maveric x2
Death & Taxes x1
Tezzerator x1
Merfolk x1
Junk Depths x1
Junk Blade x1
Jund Midranged x1
Slivers x1
Painter x1
Goblins x1
Grixis Tempo x1
High Tide x1
Manaless Dredge x1
Omnitell x1
Moggcatcher x1
U/R Delver has taken just under fourteen per cent of the top eight spots, not the thirty per cent you make it out to be!
That's great and frankly what Legacy is about (adapting), but one could just as easily argue that it's warping the format around itself. Especially when you need to run main deck pyroblasts in something like Jund just to be competitive.
Main deck Blasts are good because blue is heavily played. It doesn't mean the format is wapred around TC! It's as though people think players are holding their Blasts waiting to catch a TC.
Main deck Blasts are good because blue is heavily played. It doesn't mean the format is wapred around TC! It's as though people think players are holding their Blasts waiting to catch a TC.
Well in all fairness, it's been a couple games at SCG I see people holding red blasts for TC even with another target (for a while) just because TC would be the nail in the coffin of the match, even if they're at 5 vs a v clique or some similar example.
That's probably an incorrect move. Probably based more in the psychological effect of TC than in its actual power.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
im pretty sure everyone and their mother knew this card (Mod edit: True Name Nemesis) was going to be a massive problem to deal with, i keep looking at all the angles for counter play and i really dont see a balanced trade off, its been dominate in every winning deck since it was printed.
more then wanting to know why it isnt banned i want to know how it ever passed the R/D step?
what deck besides blue control or some storm with god hand turn 0 win can beat this?
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The card is not really all that oppressive. It is easy to race the card so long as there is not equipment stacked onto it, and there are plenty of ways to address that. There are a number of decks that don't auto lose to it.
The meta adjusted by adding golgari charms, zealous persecution, and more edict effects. TNN I thought was gonna kill off Jund but instead it actually made my deck more popular to use.
what deck besides blue control or some storm with god hand turn 0 win can beat this?
Just about any deck can do it. It's a good card, but there's lots of ways to remove it. Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Holy Light, Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution for starters, sacrifice effects like Liliana of the Veil, or get some lifegain active (batterskull), or race faster with bigger creatures, fliers, or equipment.
No question it's a good card, and it certainly does require some tools to deal with, but strangely Legacy is crazy enough that it's very beatable.
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I still think it shouldn't exist as its oppressive in a way blue shouldn't be but the reason its not banned is it hasn't been that dominating, once it killed off Jund that is.
Anybody who feels that TC should be banned is going to be very disappointed when it's not. Nobody is going to ban cards with these kind of numbers. It's obvious that the players that play at these events and spend the big money don't feel that TC is a big deal and I concur, especially when only 4 Delver decks made it into the top 16.
So I'm calling it now. January will come and go quite uneventfully.
Anybody who feels that TC should be banned is going to be very disappointed when it's not. Nobody is going to ban cards with these kind of numbers. It's obvious that the players that play at these events and spend the big money don't feel that TC is a big deal and I concur, especially when only 4 Delver decks made it into the top 16.
So I'm calling it now. January will come and go quite uneventfully.
As it should.
I totally agree. The only reason why I bring up Brainstorm is because I believe it's 1,000 times more busted then TC yet nobody want to ban brainstorm.
I personally believe the bar had been set - Brainstorm (maybe Mental Misstep would had surpassed the brainstorm numbers but we would never know because it was banned in a really short time)
Anyway... I'll be excited to see what new card comes out in the next set
Treasure Cruise gets played in more than just Delver. Both the top 2 decks were running Cruise, with the winning deck playing 4. Neither were Delver. Of the 16 decks that went undefeated on day 1, 9 played Cruise.
Treasure Cruise gets played in more than just Delver. Both the top 2 decks were running Cruise, with the winning deck playing 4. Neither were Delver. Of the 16 decks that went undefeated on day 1, 9 played Cruise.
Doesn't matter. Brainstorm is played in just as many decks if not more.
The numbers speak for themselves. The format is healthy.
With these kind of numbers? Do you remember GP Madrid, which at the time broke the record for GP attendance. After that a ban occurred on mystical tutor. That's hilariously flawed logic except in the case of standard/the most played constructed format where I'm 99.99% sure jace and stoneforge would not have been banned if attendance hadn't dropped. Bans in legacy aren't going to stop product from being sold.
Probably incorrect to let a creature live versus having them draw 3 cards? That's like saying sure ancestral is fine to resolve but that tarmogoyf that has to go. It isn't remotely psychological. If someone draws 3 cards for one mana they're gaining an obscene advantage that will likely win them the game. Clique is answered by virtually every removal spell on the planet. Answers to cruise? Countermagic and spirit of the labyrinth type of effects.
They didn't just announce the stats, the stats have been known since the tournament started. It isn't really that hard to know either as you can click on round 1 standings and scroll to the bottom and know how many people attended.
Almost no one maindecked REBs or pyroblasts before cruise. After cruise? Gigantic difference. The card is warping the format and if you can't see it I'm not going to try to help you see as blindness is incurable.
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How could you possibly know that? Remember that in legacy, having to overhaul a deck isn't just an inconvenience, it's a serious financial commitment.
What changed your mind about Brainstorm?
You've spoken of how the MM ban was deserving and how you would have preferred BS to be banned over it however.
Which isn't happening
That's just wrong. If U/R delver continues to dominate the format, and all that's changed is the addition of TC and Swiftspear, one of those is to blame.
It's not a combo, and BS isn't what allows Miracles to work. Counter Balance and Top are what allow Miracles to work. Some versions are even going back in time, cutting many of the miracles, including only Terminus. Synergy isn't a combo, they'll wholly separate ideas.
By your definition he's right. Lands and Spells, according to you are a combo. Therefore the meta should be completely recalculated, every deck in it is a combo deck.
You either need to accept that or adjust your definition greatly.
Infect isn't a combo because it has synergy between cards, it's because there's a cluster of spells the deck wishes to cast in order to circumvent general strategy and kill along a mostly unique axis.
Goblins is a control deck because of the huge amount of mana denial it runs.
So I guess you've never seen a Goblin deck totally beat down on somebody. Maybe you should read "Who's The Beatdown." But like I said, I don't really care anymore. People can call decks whatever they like. Archtypes almost have no meaning anymore when creature based decks can be called combo and control.
I'm simply giving you the reasoning behind why the deck is called such, it didn't just come out of the blue. Creature based decks can also totally be combo or control. PainterStone's a combo deck, still creature focused. D&T's also a creature focused deck, still a control deck.
You do realize that creatures can (shock and horror!) have functions that are more than just beating down, right?
Take Elves! for example. It's basically a Storm deck that gets to add on creature spells cast prior to the current turn in its win condition. Just because sometimes you win games without Hoof doesn't change the fact that if you try to play it like a straight aggro deck, it's going to be really suboptimal.
What type a card is has nothing to do with whether it's an aggro, combo, or control card. All three types of decks play instants...and sorceries...and utility lands...I'm sure I could even find examples based around artifacts if I tried. You sound like the kind of player who wants to go back to the days when all combo and control decks played 0 creatures because "creature" was a garbage card type compared to literally everything else.
Personally, I'm glad those days are over.
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I ignored Soldier a long time ago. Just reading some of these quote's of his make me cringe. Delver + brainstorm = combo? It's called synergy. A combo is something like reanimate/show and tell griselbrand, 9 storm count + tendrils via a lethal spell chain, jeskai ascendancy + 1 drop instants/sorceries + mana dork. It isn't that hard to categorize.
I would bet money that even if brainstorm was banned cruise would still dominate the format. The raw power of cruise is insanely high as are the cards that are still backing it up (ponder, preordain, probe, force, delver, swiftspear, young pyromancer, bolt, etc. etc.) Cruise is the real problem. Dig through time might be a legitimate problem too not much data on that card yet but that card is also insanely powerful.
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You're not really helping your case when you show ignorance into something as common as Goblins having a Control element to it. Yes they kill you with creatures, but so does Death and Taxes, which is also another Control deck that relies on mana denial (hence the Taxes part). If Goblins were a pure aggro deck, why run Rishadan Port and Wasteland in conjunction with Vials?
Back on topic and also to play Devil's Advocate, 3 of the Top 8 at the last SCG were U/R Delver. More importantly, the winning deck was running maindeck Pyroblasts. My friend got 2nd at SCG Minneapolis and was playing Miracles with maindeck RIP. These are all changes in the meta to shutdown Treasure Cruise. That's great and frankly what Legacy is about (adapting), but one could just as easily argue that it's warping the format around itself. Especially when you need to run main deck pyroblasts in something like Jund just to be competitive.
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I'd say Goblins is closer to an aggressive midrange deck. It's secondary plan of grinding someone down with card advantage is more similar to Jund or Maverick than a true control strategy.
Death & Taxes is a much better example of an actual control deck that runs a lot of creatures.
Goblins flaw though is, paradoxically, that so much of its strength was tied up in this plan that once the format speed up, the deck was no longer competitive. Since now you can not slow someone down enough to drop you 4th and 5th turn bombs and start the ball rolling. You just dead before then now.
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You're right. I am ignorant. How dare I even attempt to discuss a game that I've been playing for over 20 years. What was I thinking? Shame on me. (Landboy go back in your corner and tear up 20 Black Lotus as your penance.)
Back on topic. Regardless of what role a deck has (immaterial to the conversation) Delver, which I guess is the main deck using TC, will survive just fine without it. A ban won't do a thing to the current state of Legacy. At least nothing significant. Delver won't suddenly become a tier 2 deck and a half a dozen new decks won't suddenly start getting played.
Ultimately, all it will do is appease those who are unhappy with the card. If that is the DCI's goal and enough of a reason for a ban, it'll be done. I say sooner than later. Don't drag this thing out. The longer they allow the card to remain in Legacy the bigger the backlash when it does get banned. Remember, people invest a lot of money into their decks and it is quite possible that many will start playing Delver because of this card. Hype is sometimes more important than substance and thus this could turn into a self fulfilling prophesy.
So I say end it now before it gets out of hand.
And there were zero U/R Delver lists in the top eight at Eternal Festival in Tokyo a week before. No good looking at just one event! Here's the Top eight breakdown since TC hot the scene:
U/R Delver x10
Miracles x9
Elves x7
Team America x4
Reanimator x4
Sneak Show x4
Patriot Blade x4
Candaian Thresh x4
Death Blade x3
Dredge x3
Lands x2
Storm x2
Maveric x2
Death & Taxes x1
Tezzerator x1
Merfolk x1
Junk Depths x1
Junk Blade x1
Jund Midranged x1
Slivers x1
Painter x1
Goblins x1
Grixis Tempo x1
High Tide x1
Manaless Dredge x1
Omnitell x1
Moggcatcher x1
U/R Delver has taken just under fourteen per cent of the top eight spots, not the thirty per cent you make it out to be!
Main deck Blasts are good because blue is heavily played. It doesn't mean the format is wapred around TC! It's as though people think players are holding their Blasts waiting to catch a TC.
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That's probably an incorrect move. Probably based more in the psychological effect of TC than in its actual power.
more then wanting to know why it isnt banned i want to know how it ever passed the R/D step?
what deck besides blue control or some storm with god hand turn 0 win can beat this?
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Just about any deck can do it. It's a good card, but there's lots of ways to remove it. Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Holy Light, Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution for starters, sacrifice effects like Liliana of the Veil, or get some lifegain active (batterskull), or race faster with bigger creatures, fliers, or equipment.
No question it's a good card, and it certainly does require some tools to deal with, but strangely Legacy is crazy enough that it's very beatable.
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Anybody who feels that TC should be banned is going to be very disappointed when it's not. Nobody is going to ban cards with these kind of numbers. It's obvious that the players that play at these events and spend the big money don't feel that TC is a big deal and I concur, especially when only 4 Delver decks made it into the top 16.
So I'm calling it now. January will come and go quite uneventfully.
As it should.
I totally agree. The only reason why I bring up Brainstorm is because I believe it's 1,000 times more busted then TC yet nobody want to ban brainstorm.
I personally believe the bar had been set - Brainstorm (maybe Mental Misstep would had surpassed the brainstorm numbers but we would never know because it was banned in a really short time)
Anyway... I'll be excited to see what new card comes out in the next set
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What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Doesn't matter. Brainstorm is played in just as many decks if not more.
The numbers speak for themselves. The format is healthy.
There will be NO banned cards come January.
Probably incorrect to let a creature live versus having them draw 3 cards? That's like saying sure ancestral is fine to resolve but that tarmogoyf that has to go. It isn't remotely psychological. If someone draws 3 cards for one mana they're gaining an obscene advantage that will likely win them the game. Clique is answered by virtually every removal spell on the planet. Answers to cruise? Countermagic and spirit of the labyrinth type of effects.
They didn't just announce the stats, the stats have been known since the tournament started. It isn't really that hard to know either as you can click on round 1 standings and scroll to the bottom and know how many people attended.
Almost no one maindecked REBs or pyroblasts before cruise. After cruise? Gigantic difference. The card is warping the format and if you can't see it I'm not going to try to help you see as blindness is incurable.
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