Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Losing to a turn 1 chalice is a miserable experience, but no chalice deck is dominating for the moment. Maybe if Eldrazi becomes too dominant? They restricted it in vintage, so there's precedent for it
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGO Username: Tajicyolo
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show Duel Commander:Kess High Tide Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
Depends what else gets banned. If they feel Miracles is too strong and take something away there, they might take something away from combo or Eldrazi to "balance the bans". Chalice is silly with all the Sol Ring lands and so on, but there's a variety of ways to deal with it. I'd be surprised if it got the axe. I guess the question is: "How much do we want people to play spells?" If the answer is "A moderate amount to a lot", then going for Counterbalance and Chalice might "solve" that problem, if indeed there is one in their eyes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Losing to a turn 1 chalice is a miserable experience, but no chalice deck is dominating for the moment. Maybe if Eldrazi becomes too dominant? They restricted it in vintage, so there's precedent for it
Depends what else gets banned. If they feel Miracles is too strong and take something away there, they might take something away from combo or Eldrazi to "balance the bans". Chalice is silly with all the Sol Ring lands and so on, but there's a variety of ways to deal with it. I'd be surprised if it got the axe. I guess the question is: "How much do we want people to play spells?" If the answer is "A moderate amount to a lot", then going for Counterbalance and Chalice might "solve" that problem, if indeed there is one in their eyes.
I was hoping for a resounding, "No!"
I think someone is trolling on FB, but just saying something like that there can upset a lot of people, so it had me wondering. Also, this guy is as far from a credible source. He doesn't even play Legacy, but was looking to get in with Merfolk (missing some number of FoW and Wasteland).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
just out of curiosity, how often do they ban/unban cards in legacy for the sole purpose of just shaking it up?
In short: Never.
To echo/expand: Hagalaz is absolutely correct here. WotC hasn't gone for the cheap thrills here that they have done for the modern banlist. Cards come off the ban list when they ascertain that they are no longer a threat to the format, they go on when the meta is in a bad place. They don't ban cards just to make things "fresh" for a tournament like they have explicitly admitted to doing for modern.
WotC has also (imo) shown an admirable amount of restraint in their Legacy format management. They have taken a very long term view of things and are okay with letting the format sort out most issues on its own.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
just out of curiosity, how often do they ban/unban cards in legacy for the sole purpose of just shaking it up?
In short: Never.
To echo/expand: Hagalaz is absolutely correct here. WotC hasn't gone for the cheap thrills here that they have done for the modern banlist. Cards come off the ban list when they ascertain that they are no longer a threat to the format, they go on when the meta is in a bad place. They don't ban cards just to make things "fresh" for a tournament like they have explicitly admitted to doing for modern.
WotC has also (imo) shown an admirable amount of restraint in their Legacy forum management. They have taken a very long term view of things and are okay with letting the format sort out most issues on its own.
I think that's a really good way to handle a format IMO, just show restraint and let it fix itself, unless it really needs to be fixed. Like Eldrazi in modern. That was a mess.
I guess when a format's card pool is as diverse as legacy, it's bound to fix itself most of the time though
Hi all, I'm quite a new legacy player and this summer a question popped up in my mind.
I watched some vintage cube streams and I couldn't help but notice how powerful tinker is.
However, after watching some different streams, I noticed that the most common plays with this card was to fetch some huge artifact creatures such as inkwell leviathan or sundering titan.
As a sneak&show player, can someone please explain how tinker is more broken than show&tell? It seems to me that it's a little bit slower ( it can't be cast of a lotus petal t1 for example ), and I feel that reanimator is faster and has a tool box of ( better? ) creatures as well. (Again, I'm not an experienced player, that's why I'm asking ). For what I've seen, even tin fins looks like a more degenerate combo deck. Plus, I feel that putting in play an omniscience / griselbrand / emrakul of a show and tell is a stronger play than putting any of the artifact fatties of a tinker, which by the way, you need an artifact first in the battlefield for it in order to work.
Besides, each time someone mentions cards that might be unbanned, somebody will rise the argument that "X card is safe to be unbanned, it isn't bonkers like tinker. I'm not advocating for any unban whatsoever, I'm just curious and would like to know the ideas of more experienced players.
Please note that I'm not looking for comments à la "show and tell is so unfun, we don't need any more dumb combos" whatsoever. Different people have different play styles and like different decks. Please accept that some people ( me included ) love combo decks. As a new player, I just want to understand what made ( or why is ) tinker such a degenerate card ( or more degenerate than show and tell, at least).
Show and Tell puts a card in from your hand. You have a choice of probably 3-4 cards. That takes some setting up to turn into a win by comparison- if the card your deck is designed to put into play is not there it does nothing. Worse, if you put in Emrakul and your opponent puts in Humility , you have spent two cards on a Legendary 1/1 vanilla. Your opponent might put in a combo piece of their own, winning on the spot (Omniscience for example or helm of obedience with a Rest In peace down, or Painter's servant with Grindstone down etc.). If Show and Tell did not allow the opponent to do anything or put a card from your library into play, it would also be banned.
Tinker requires an artifact (which every land in your deck can be if you so wish), and fetches any one of fifty remaining cards in your deck into play, regardless of cost. As tutors go its pretty strong compared to S and T.
Tinn Fins is a lot less degenerate when Trinisphere and Leyline of The void are down t1, trust me.
@Benama9: And just for some highlight stuff, tinker used to put cards like memory jar, phyrexian processor, and crumbling sanctuary into play around the time of it being standard playable. Then cards like dark steel colossus. And in my favourite final fantasy deck: platinum angel and isochron sceptre.
Basically dumber and more over costed cards are being made and tinker makes them all cost 3. In the decks that would play tinker that's a turn 1-2 tinker that most likely wins next turn at the latest. Also consider that it functions as a one sided show and tell that required no set up. Hope that clears it up even more
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Tinker is dumber than show and tell because sacking an artifact isn't really a cost in a format where you have access to top, artifact lands, moxen, petals, etc. etc. means you can always fulfill that part and because it's basically demonic tutor + multiple black lotuses all in one card as fetching blightsteel with it is cheating a whopping 9 mana for free, which is obviously broken in a mana based game like magic. It was broken when it was tutoring out stuff like mishra's helix, then mirrodin rolled around and gave it more fun stuff to cheat out. Over time tinker only gets better unless some insanely good artifact removal is printed like, say, G: Exile target artifact, draw a card for example but that isn't happening for a million reasons.
If show and tell was one sided, it would be banned sure as day just like oath of druids. Oath is technically symmetrical, but it's incredibly easy to make it work for just you or for you to win the game when an oath trigger resolves and puts in griselbrand with dragon's breath attached or something like that. Only time oath is fair is when it decks you or you're actually playing some pretty poor creatures like wild nacatl for example.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Tinker is dumber than show and tell because sacking an artifact isn't really a cost in a format where you have access to top, artifact lands, moxen, petals, etc. etc. means you can always fulfill that part and because it's basically demonic tutor + multiple black lotuses all in one card as fetching blightsteel with it is cheating a whopping 9 mana for free, which is obviously broken in a mana based game like magic. It was broken when it was tutoring out stuff like mishra's helix, then mirrodin rolled around and gave it more fun stuff to cheat out. Over time tinker only gets better unless some insanely good artifact removal is printed like, say, G: Exile target artifact, draw a card for example but that isn't happening for a million reasons.
If show and tell was one sided, it would be banned sure as day just like oath of druids. Oath is technically symmetrical, but it's incredibly easy to make it work for just you or for you to win the game when an oath trigger resolves and puts in griselbrand with dragon's breath attached or something like that. Only time oath is fair is when it decks you or you're actually playing some pretty poor creatures like wild nacatl for example.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
It seems like legacy has been stuck for a while with miracles as the format defining deck currently making up almost 15% of the meta. Two questions about this. One, are any of the cards on the potentially chopping block to break up this deck? Two is kind of related to one, why has nothing been banned yet from this? Its incredibly boring to watch, and it dominates a whole format. If this happened in modern, someting from this deck would have been banned after putting up these results in just a few tourneys. The reason I ask is as a modern player, i have some aspiritations of having a legacy deck at some point, but i would rather watch paint dry than play with or against miracles
It seems like legacy has been stuck for a while with miracles as the format defining deck currently making up almost 15% of the meta. Two questions about this. One, are any of the cards on the potentially chopping block to break up this deck? Two is kind of related to one, why has nothing been banned yet from this? Its incredibly boring to watch, and it dominates a whole format. If this happened in modern, someting from this deck would have been banned after putting up these results in just a few tourneys. The reason I ask is as a modern player, i have some aspiritations of having a legacy deck at some point, but i would rather watch paint dry than play with or against miracles
Legacy is a format where there is allowed to be a best deck unlike modern. Provided the best deck isnt absolutely dominating everything, it is left alone. More often cards are banned for being individually too powerful than they are banned to weaken an individual deck.
The odds of seeing anything banned from miracles when its been around in its current iteration for several years now is near 0.
It seems like legacy has been stuck for a while with miracles as the format defining deck currently making up almost 15% of the meta. Two questions about this. One, are any of the cards on the potentially chopping block to break up this deck? Two is kind of related to one, why has nothing been banned yet from this? Its incredibly boring to watch, and it dominates a whole format. If this happened in modern, someting from this deck would have been banned after putting up these results in just a few tourneys. The reason I ask is as a modern player, i have some aspiritations of having a legacy deck at some point, but i would rather watch paint dry than play with or against miracles
Well, you can't really look at it through the lens of Modern bans because the formats serve different purposes to WOTC and thus the criteria to get a deck or card banned are likely very different. I'm not sure if we've ever been given a good, comprehensive picture of their attitude toward Legacy bans the way we've been given with Modern's recently.
bfrie's correct that Legacy is allowed to have a "best deck" but what we don't know is what kind of latitude that comes with. I would make hefty bets that the topic of banning Sensei's Divining Top in Legacy has at least been discussed at WOTC.
That said, I disagree that it's incredibly boring to watch. Some games where there's a clear lock and the loser doesn't scoop but the Miracles player refuses to pull the trigger on Entreat are certainly boring and seem wrong. But there are other games that are just incredible, though they often end with the under-dog, non-Miracles player pulling out an unforeseen victory (see Game 2 of the Finals of Eternal Extravaganza this past weekend for an example).
I would be very unhappy if Top got banned to nerf Miracles. Here is why
Firstly, Top/Fetches or other shuffle is a very valid search mechanism in lower tier decks. I use it in mono-b pox, for example, and without it I simply can't play a long prison game- once games go into top deck mode it is impossible to win consistently unless you can get out lock pieces. Its used in Turbo depths lists, to the same effect- to see more cards, but this time to execute a win by assembling the combo consistently. Removing top fetches will have the effect of making brainstorm/fetches the only real option of deck manipulation outside of odd tutor decks like Lands and Parfait, whereas now every deck gets some degree of manipulation if it wants to.
If Miracles needs nerfing, then hose the counter part of the counter top, or even tinker at the margins a bit, such as changing the rules on split cards; currently it uses Wear/Tear in the board to hit both casting costs off the lock, whilst Nevermore/Meddling Mage effects nowadays only stop half the card being cast, but could stop both with a rule change. They changed the rules to make Trinisphere worse against Delve recently (as in a couple of years ago), for example. I doubt this would help much, but it is a small step. They could even print more uncounterable effects- Decay keeps the deck in check, another of that sort might really nail it.
I don't honestly think it does need nerfing, though. Sure it is super tough, but there are plenty of decks with decent matchups against it- it is unfortunate that those decks with the best matchups tend to be those that are lower down the tier tree, but they do exist.
Incidentally, my favourite match that I played this year was against a Miracles player. In game 3 I went on the play and got t1 Chalice, t2 3sphere and T3 Crucible cast Geddon T 4. I set up a lock with Smokestack on 1.....keeping him on 0 permanents for six or seven turns whilst I sacrificed a Flagstones repeatedly and eventually laid Elspeth. Priceless...). Having a great "best deck" so well and truely locked gives a certain satisfaction- something has got to be the best deck, and I would rather this than yet another Delver deck....)
If Miracles needs nerfing, then hose the counter part of the counter top, or even tinker at the margins a bit, such as changing the rules on split cards; currently it uses Wear/Tear in the board to hit both casting costs off the lock
A couple things.
1. What are this coming Saturday's powerball numbers?
2. They changed the ruling on split cards. Now a wear/tear off counterbalance will show the added CMC of both sides (3, I think). Does this do much to the deck? There are a number of 1 and 2 CMC cards to counter and not nearly as many meaningful 3 CMC in Legacy. But this only changes a small number of cards. I don't see it making much of an impact.
It helps a tiny bit, as often you need to slip past the counter lock. The deck can always counter 1cc things, but 2cc is harder- cb itself (by definition 1 copy is down 2-3 left) and 2-3 snappies 2 counterspells. 3cc comes from mentors, cliques, and c-j plus entreats and now wear/tear- a fair chunk. 2 is a hard spot for them though, so yet another 3cc card vs 2 cc + 1cc is a small bonus........
4 cc and 2cc would seem to be the bits they are most likely to blow out on, and the rule change just increases that slightly.
In terms of targets at 2cc to hit there are few and some of the better ones are expensive- sadly Chains of Mephistopheles is decent against miracles- hitting top draws and brainstorm, but the $$ cost means few decks can run it if they want to.
Burn gets a few more things through, it will help them- flame rift being obvious, and they will bring in wear tear for vortex and eidolon, so its a small bit there where one blowout off top is often death......
Really we just need more uncounterables.....
One problem with looking at a percentage of the meta is a lot of the data is obtained from MODO, where cards like Rishadan Port are not easily obtained. Decks like Death & Taxes, and Lands, are some of the more difficult matchups for Miracles (especially the later now that MD Boseiju, who Shelters All is a thing).
Also keep in mind that since the fall of 2014 WotC has reprinted over 75% of the main deck of Miracles. If barrier to entry is an issue then banning Top (or anything from the deck) would be counter intuitive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently playing: MODERN BRG Jund WU Control UBRG Dredge BG Elves G Tron
Affinity
Building: WR Boros Burn UB Tezzerator
I also play Legacy, and EDH. Follow me at MTGPackFoils on Twitter.
Counterbalance should have gone.
I own miracles and would have been happy if they banned CB, no problem.
But Top is bloody annoying, Top fetch is only way a mono B pox deck can compete for selection. It has ruined my Pox, really hurts my Deadguy list, whilst Nic Fit is weakened.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Losing to a turn 1 chalice is a miserable experience, but no chalice deck is dominating for the moment. Maybe if Eldrazi becomes too dominant? They restricted it in vintage, so there's precedent for it
Currently Playing:
Modern
Legacy:
Duel Commander:
Vintage
Depends what else gets banned. If they feel Miracles is too strong and take something away there, they might take something away from combo or Eldrazi to "balance the bans". Chalice is silly with all the Sol Ring lands and so on, but there's a variety of ways to deal with it. I'd be surprised if it got the axe. I guess the question is: "How much do we want people to play spells?" If the answer is "A moderate amount to a lot", then going for Counterbalance and Chalice might "solve" that problem, if indeed there is one in their eyes.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
I was hoping for a resounding, "No!"
I think someone is trolling on FB, but just saying something like that there can upset a lot of people, so it had me wondering. Also, this guy is as far from a credible source. He doesn't even play Legacy, but was looking to get in with Merfolk (missing some number of FoW and Wasteland).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Doubtful any storm variants would want it as 3cmc will be painful with ant.
Graveyard centric decks would like it but not dredge, 3cmc is a lot for many decks they wouldn't consider it because slots are tight as it is.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffWotC has also (imo) shown an admirable amount of restraint in their Legacy format management. They have taken a very long term view of things and are okay with letting the format sort out most issues on its own.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffI think that's a really good way to handle a format IMO, just show restraint and let it fix itself, unless it really needs to be fixed. Like Eldrazi in modern. That was a mess.
I guess when a format's card pool is as diverse as legacy, it's bound to fix itself most of the time though
I watched some vintage cube streams and I couldn't help but notice how powerful tinker is.
However, after watching some different streams, I noticed that the most common plays with this card was to fetch some huge artifact creatures such as inkwell leviathan or sundering titan.
As a sneak&show player, can someone please explain how tinker is more broken than show&tell? It seems to me that it's a little bit slower ( it can't be cast of a lotus petal t1 for example ), and I feel that reanimator is faster and has a tool box of ( better? ) creatures as well. (Again, I'm not an experienced player, that's why I'm asking ). For what I've seen, even tin fins looks like a more degenerate combo deck. Plus, I feel that putting in play an omniscience / griselbrand / emrakul of a show and tell is a stronger play than putting any of the artifact fatties of a tinker, which by the way, you need an artifact first in the battlefield for it in order to work.
Besides, each time someone mentions cards that might be unbanned, somebody will rise the argument that "X card is safe to be unbanned, it isn't bonkers like tinker. I'm not advocating for any unban whatsoever, I'm just curious and would like to know the ideas of more experienced players.
Please note that I'm not looking for comments à la "show and tell is so unfun, we don't need any more dumb combos" whatsoever. Different people have different play styles and like different decks. Please accept that some people ( me included ) love combo decks. As a new player, I just want to understand what made ( or why is ) tinker such a degenerate card ( or more degenerate than show and tell, at least).
Cheers
Tinker requires an artifact (which every land in your deck can be if you so wish), and fetches any one of fifty remaining cards in your deck into play, regardless of cost. As tutors go its pretty strong compared to S and T.
Tinn Fins is a lot less degenerate when Trinisphere and Leyline of The void are down t1, trust me.
Basically dumber and more over costed cards are being made and tinker makes them all cost 3. In the decks that would play tinker that's a turn 1-2 tinker that most likely wins next turn at the latest. Also consider that it functions as a one sided show and tell that required no set up. Hope that clears it up even more
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
If show and tell was one sided, it would be banned sure as day just like oath of druids. Oath is technically symmetrical, but it's incredibly easy to make it work for just you or for you to win the game when an oath trigger resolves and puts in griselbrand with dragon's breath attached or something like that. Only time oath is fair is when it decks you or you're actually playing some pretty poor creatures like wild nacatl for example.
Currently Playing:
Retired
If show and tell was one sided, it would be banned sure as day just like oath of druids. Oath is technically symmetrical, but it's incredibly easy to make it work for just you or for you to win the game when an oath trigger resolves and puts in griselbrand with dragon's breath attached or something like that. Only time oath is fair is when it decks you or you're actually playing some pretty poor creatures like wild nacatl for example.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Legacy is a format where there is allowed to be a best deck unlike modern. Provided the best deck isnt absolutely dominating everything, it is left alone. More often cards are banned for being individually too powerful than they are banned to weaken an individual deck.
The odds of seeing anything banned from miracles when its been around in its current iteration for several years now is near 0.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
bfrie's correct that Legacy is allowed to have a "best deck" but what we don't know is what kind of latitude that comes with. I would make hefty bets that the topic of banning Sensei's Divining Top in Legacy has at least been discussed at WOTC.
That said, I disagree that it's incredibly boring to watch. Some games where there's a clear lock and the loser doesn't scoop but the Miracles player refuses to pull the trigger on Entreat are certainly boring and seem wrong. But there are other games that are just incredible, though they often end with the under-dog, non-Miracles player pulling out an unforeseen victory (see Game 2 of the Finals of Eternal Extravaganza this past weekend for an example).
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Firstly, Top/Fetches or other shuffle is a very valid search mechanism in lower tier decks. I use it in mono-b pox, for example, and without it I simply can't play a long prison game- once games go into top deck mode it is impossible to win consistently unless you can get out lock pieces. Its used in Turbo depths lists, to the same effect- to see more cards, but this time to execute a win by assembling the combo consistently. Removing top fetches will have the effect of making brainstorm/fetches the only real option of deck manipulation outside of odd tutor decks like Lands and Parfait, whereas now every deck gets some degree of manipulation if it wants to.
If Miracles needs nerfing, then hose the counter part of the counter top, or even tinker at the margins a bit, such as changing the rules on split cards; currently it uses Wear/Tear in the board to hit both casting costs off the lock, whilst Nevermore/Meddling Mage effects nowadays only stop half the card being cast, but could stop both with a rule change. They changed the rules to make Trinisphere worse against Delve recently (as in a couple of years ago), for example. I doubt this would help much, but it is a small step. They could even print more uncounterable effects- Decay keeps the deck in check, another of that sort might really nail it.
I don't honestly think it does need nerfing, though. Sure it is super tough, but there are plenty of decks with decent matchups against it- it is unfortunate that those decks with the best matchups tend to be those that are lower down the tier tree, but they do exist.
Incidentally, my favourite match that I played this year was against a Miracles player. In game 3 I went on the play and got t1 Chalice, t2 3sphere and T3 Crucible cast Geddon T 4. I set up a lock with Smokestack on 1.....keeping him on 0 permanents for six or seven turns whilst I sacrificed a Flagstones repeatedly and eventually laid Elspeth. Priceless...). Having a great "best deck" so well and truely locked gives a certain satisfaction- something has got to be the best deck, and I would rather this than yet another Delver deck....)
1. What are this coming Saturday's powerball numbers?
2. They changed the ruling on split cards. Now a wear/tear off counterbalance will show the added CMC of both sides (3, I think). Does this do much to the deck? There are a number of 1 and 2 CMC cards to counter and not nearly as many meaningful 3 CMC in Legacy. But this only changes a small number of cards. I don't see it making much of an impact.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
4 cc and 2cc would seem to be the bits they are most likely to blow out on, and the rule change just increases that slightly.
In terms of targets at 2cc to hit there are few and some of the better ones are expensive- sadly Chains of Mephistopheles is decent against miracles- hitting top draws and brainstorm, but the $$ cost means few decks can run it if they want to.
Burn gets a few more things through, it will help them- flame rift being obvious, and they will bring in wear tear for vortex and eidolon, so its a small bit there where one blowout off top is often death......
Really we just need more uncounterables.....
Also keep in mind that since the fall of 2014 WotC has reprinted over 75% of the main deck of Miracles. If barrier to entry is an issue then banning Top (or anything from the deck) would be counter intuitive.
MODERN
BRG Jund
WU Control
UBRG Dredge
BG Elves
G Tron
Affinity
Building:
WR Boros Burn
UB Tezzerator
I also play Legacy, and EDH. Follow me at MTGPackFoils on Twitter.
Modern player here. Looks like Wizards are equal-opportunity offenders, huh.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
I own miracles and would have been happy if they banned CB, no problem.
But Top is bloody annoying, Top fetch is only way a mono B pox deck can compete for selection. It has ruined my Pox, really hurts my Deadguy list, whilst Nic Fit is weakened.