I think so, but that goes both for bannings and unbannings. They mostly throw out unbannings as a consolation prize when something gets banned. The thing to do when something silly is going on in the format, as during the Treasure Cruise / DTT era, is to pick up a playset of those likely-to-be-unbanned cards before the hype train quadruples their value. Not necessarily to speculate, but just to save on cards when the inevitable bone gets tossed. I mean, who would want to pay more than a dime for a Black Vise?
Hey guys, the first card on my list is Mana Drain. Sure it's good. It's really good. In particular with Vintage Keeper control strategies. It combos nicely with cards such as Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius. But who even plays those in Legacy? I don't see it breaking the format anytime soon. It's barely ran in any Vintage deck lists.
Mind Twist. Even in Vintage you rarely see this card. Un-ban it today in Legacy and you might see it in some Pox lists but it's still no Hymn to Tourach. Like Black Vise and World Gorger Dragon, it won't be breaking the format anytime soon.
Yawgmoth's Bargain. This might be the most controversial card on my list. Awesome card, in particular in combo decks. I don't see it as a staple in any Vintage decks and I'd love to see it the Legacy format at least for a few months just to see what sort of decks pop up. I'm assuming there might be a spike in price with Academy Rector but to be honest I don't see it breaking the format.
Hey guys, the first card on my list is Mana Drain. Sure it's good. It's really good. In particular with Vintage Keeper control strategies. It combos nicely with cards such as Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius. But who even plays those in Legacy? I don't see it breaking the format anytime soon. It's barely ran in any Vintage deck lists.
Mind Twist. Even in Vintage you rarely see this card. Un-ban it today in Legacy and you might see it in some Pox lists but it's still no Hymn to Tourach. Like Black Vise and World Gorger Dragon, it won't be breaking the format anytime soon.
Yawgmoth's Bargain. This might be the most controversial card on my list. Awesome card, in particular in combo decks. I don't see it as a staple in any Vintage decks and I'd love to see it the Legacy format at least for a few months just to see what sort of decks pop up. I'm assuming there might be a spike in price with Academy Rector but to be honest I don't see it breaking the format.
I would instantly replace ad nauseam with bargain.
Hey guys, the first card on my list is Mana Drain. Sure it's good. It's really good. In particular with Vintage Keeper control strategies. It combos nicely with cards such as Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius. But who even plays those in Legacy? I don't see it breaking the format anytime soon. It's barely ran in any Vintage deck lists.
Part of me would love to see Mana Drain back. Only because I know counterspell is seldom used because of free Daze and counterbalance is a million times better. But because the card is very rare it may fetch 500 to 1000 dollars easy! Others seemed to believe that Jace would come in play a turn or so earlier. Sure it can happen but I have doubts because players need open mana for an early turn brainstorm/ponder.
Anyway... I do have doubts that wizards would unban Mana Drain because Mana Drain, Oath and Workshop were the major cards that forced wizards to redesign type 1 and 1.5 to Vintage and Legacy.
Mind Twist. Even in Vintage you rarely see this card. Un-ban it today in Legacy and you might see it in some Pox lists but it's still no Hymn to Tourach. Like Black Vise and World Gorger Dragon, it won't be breaking the format anytime soon.
Mind Twist is still evil because a player can combo a major first turn mind twist. I don't see any good coming from this... but I thought wizards would never ban Black Vise so who knows. I do suspect if Mind Twist comes off the ban one of two things need to happen (this is based on what I had saw in the past).
1 - another cards banned because of black vise.
2 - nothing happens to the ban list for almost 2 years.
Yawgmoth's Bargain. This might be the most controversial card on my list. Awesome card, in particular in combo decks. I don't see it as a staple in any Vintage decks and I'd love to see it the Legacy format at least for a few months just to see what sort of decks pop up. I'm assuming there might be a spike in price with Academy Rector but to be honest I don't see it breaking the format.
Because the draws are instant I think Bargain is more busted then Necro. Sorry, I don't see it coming off the list because storm will drop Ad Nausea in a second.
mana drain and mind twist can come off the ban list. yawgmoth's bargain is problematic; to be fair it probably wouldn't break the format in half but it does make ant storm more consistent. i don't think the deck needs any help.
Re: Yawgmoth's Bargain
I think you're wrong to compare it to Necropotence. Bargain's most immediate role would probably be as a replacement of Ad Nauseam. All of a sudden you're no longer penalized for CMC, and you can pause part way through to cantrip or do other actions. It's tough to say for me if the 1 mana increase over ad naus is enough to make up for how much more broken the effect is. I'm comfortable calling this one unsafe to unban.
Re: Mind Twist
Soldier, what would the point be of trying to combo an early mind twist? Any deck that could do it would be better off just killing the opponent with that mana anyway. I can't see mind twist seeing meaningful play if unbanned.
Re: Mana Drain
While the format is faster and lower to the ground than it was when we last had mana drain, I still am very comfortable leaving this on the ban list. It's insane how much of an edge you get, even from as little as two mana. I love that legacy is blue format, but I'd rather not spike it quite that hard.
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Re: Yawgmoth's Bargain
I think you're wrong to compare it to Necropotence. Bargain's most immediate role would probably be as a replacement of Ad Nauseam. All of a sudden you're no longer penalized for CMC, and you can pause part way through to cantrip or do other actions. It's tough to say for me if the 1 mana increase over ad naus is enough to make up for how much more broken the effect is. I'm comfortable calling this one unsafe to unban.
I don't see it being safe or more safer than Necro. I do wish Necro was unbanned in legacy only because I don't think it was banned fairly. The banning was based on TRIX in extended while the true offender was Oath of Druids (talk about nuts). I know Necro will never see Legacy so it's not worth talking about. I do enjoy Necro in EDH and as long as Necro is legal in EDH I'm happy...
Re: Mind Twist
Soldier, what would the point be of trying to combo an early mind twist? Any deck that could do it would be better off just killing the opponent with that mana anyway. I can't see mind twist seeing meaningful play if unbanned.
At average players start with 2 to 3 lands in the opening hand, all you need to do is mindtwist 3 to 4 cards to win.
Re: Mana Drain
While the format is faster and lower to the ground than it was when we last had mana drain, I still am very comfortable leaving this on the ban list. It's insane how much of an edge you get, even from as little as two mana. I love that legacy is blue format, but I'd rather not spike it quite that hard.
Like I said I have doubts it would ever come off the ban list... I would believe Survival would be unbanned before we see Mana Drain, Necro or even Bargain come off the ban list.
The argument for unmanning Bargain comes from it's comparison to Griselbrand, who didn't break the format (though has been a player).
Bargain has advantages over Ad Nauseum, but also disadvantages (IE, you still lose a life for drawing 0 CMC cards, and it costs 6 rather than 5). It's effect is clearly not banworthy when stapled to a 7/7 Flying Lifelink creature for two extra mana, so it's worth consideration.
Mind Twist should be an easy unban: It's pointless to ritual into the card (Because you could just win instead) in combo decks; and other decks won't be casting for game breaking amounts until turn 3-4 at the earliest. It's powerful in Control/MidRange vs. Control/Midrange match ups, but meh...
At average players start with 2 to 3 lands in the opening hand, all you need to do is mindtwist 3 to 4 cards to win.
I'm pretty sure that's just not true in legacy. CMC curves in legacy are incredibly low to the ground.
That's also not true in math, the cards from mindtwist are random, discarding 3 random cards is not the same as discarding 3 non-land cards. You're just very wrong.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
At average players start with 2 to 3 lands in the opening hand, all you need to do is mindtwist 3 to 4 cards to win.
I'm pretty sure that's just not true in legacy. CMC curves in legacy are incredibly low to the ground.
That's also not true in math, the cards from mindtwist are random, discarding 3 random cards is not the same as discarding 3 non-land cards. You're just very wrong.
If you'd been told to discard 3 or 4 cards you get to pick 3 or 4 cards. Discarding 3 or 4 random cards is out of your control. Sure there is no guarantee the opponent is completely screwed but the odds are the opponent is screwed and not able to recover. There is a reason why for a short time Hymn was banned.
Is the card going to be played or not... that depends on the meta. I have no control on what is banned or what can come off the ban list. All I can do (and the same goes with you and anybody else posting this) is ASSUME WHY THE CARD IS ON THE BAN LIST. JUST LIKE WE CAN ASSUME THE CARD IS SAFE.
At average players start with 2 to 3 lands in the opening hand, all you need to do is mindtwist 3 to 4 cards to win.
I'm pretty sure that's just not true in legacy. CMC curves in legacy are incredibly low to the ground.
That's also not true in math, the cards from mindtwist are random, discarding 3 random cards is not the same as discarding 3 non-land cards. You're just very wrong.
If you'd been told to discard 3 or 4 cards you get to pick 3 or 4 cards. Discarding 3 or 4 random cards is out of your control. Sure there is no guarantee the opponent is completely screwed but the odds are the opponent is screwed and not able to recover. There is a reason why for a short time Hymn was banned.
Explain to me your statement. How have you determined that the "odds are the opponent is screwed?" The reasoning provided in your previous post is completely insane. You have not provided any information, you have simply pretended to answer the question while actually avoiding it.
Is the card going to be played or not... that depends on the meta.
I doubt this to be true in any meaningful amount.
I have no control on what is banned or what can come off the ban list. All I can do (and the same goes with you and anybody else posting this) is ASSUME WHY THE CARD IS ON THE BAN LIST. JUST LIKE WE CAN ASSUME THE CARD IS SAFE.
This statement is utterly meaningless. It has no relevance to anything said whatsoever.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
This statement is utterly meaningless. It has no relevance to anything said whatsoever.
Sweet... Did you quote Billy Madison?
I'm not sure about the odds, maybe you should mindtwist yourself for 3 to 4 cards on the first turn for a few times and see if you can recover. I don't think you can.
to mind twist somebody for 3 or 4 during first turn,you would need rituals
Given the fact that you already are playing rituals indicates that you are playing some storm variation.
Why spend 2 rituals on mind twist to possibly screw them and not on ad nauseam and win?Or on dark petition to find a missing part and win?
If I was playing POX... Hell yeah I would go for a first turn mind twist. Sure if I'm playing ad Nauseam I wouldn't be playing Mind Twist.
I'd remember reading stories of players getting Mind twisted on the first turn and cursing the game. To the point they want to quite playing magic. I do believe wizards is looking at mind twist in that perspective.
Take your current deck, draw your cards and say "I'm being mindtwist for 4 cards." What would you do? What would you lose? Can you recover?
Why play pox when you could actually play a real deck that can win a tournament. Not mind twist for 4, be just as crippled as the opponent since you burned up 3 cards to get rid of their 4 cards and are up a land in the exchange and their 3 cards could be island, daze, delver and they just beat you because they're playing with good cards. Mind twist is a 4+ drop that doesn't win the game in legacy when it resolves. If such a card should be banned, then I think the following cards are too good as well:
Deathrite Shaman
Stoneforge Mystic
Show and Tell
Griselbrand
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tarmogoyf
Delver of Secrets
Hymn to Tourach
Sensei's Divining Top
Virtually everything else that's powerful enough to compete in every single legacy tournament regardless of field.
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Why play pox when you could actually play a real deck that can win a tournament. Not mind twist for 4, be just as crippled as the opponent since you burned up 3 cards to get rid of their 4 cards and are up a land in the exchange and their 3 cards could be island, daze, delver and they just beat you because they're playing with good cards. Mind twist is a 4+ drop that doesn't win the game in legacy when it resolves. If such a card should be banned, then I think the following cards are too good as well:
Deathrite Shaman
Stoneforge Mystic
Show and Tell
Griselbrand
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tarmogoyf
Delver of Secrets
Hymn to Tourach
Sensei's Divining Top
Virtually everything else that's powerful enough to compete in every single legacy tournament regardless of field.
I don't understand the argument? I just pulled POX out of my ass because it's the only deck that came to my mind as a deck that would/could use Mind Twist on the first turn.
As far as I know... sure wizards can unban mind twist. I'm not stopping them. But I don't think wizards will unban anything right now, unless they are forced to ban cards that brainstorm breaks again. Do you think Black Vise would come off the ban list if wizards didn't have to ban 2 cards in less then 1 year? I think not.
I think the argument here is that no one wants to play Mind Twist, Pox included. It's been rehashed over and over; the large amount of mana and cards needed to cast an early Mind Twist can be used to cast something that actually wins you the game instead. Sure, if you get Mind Twisted for 4 on turn 1 and the opponent only lost a card doing that, you'll have trouble recovering, but it's more likely you got Mind Twisted for 4 and they had to use 3 cards for that, at which point you can recover. It's especially true for Pox, actually, as their individual card quality is low and opponents can recover from topdecking just by drawing better cards (unless there's a lock piece like Nether Void in play).
I think the argument here is that no one wants to play Mind Twist, Pox included.
Nope... The argument is adressed as... Why play POX it sucks....
I don't understand what does it have to do with POX being good or not good in a tournament.
It's been rehashed over and over; the large amount of mana and cards needed to cast an early Mind Twist can be used to cast something that actually wins you the game instead. Sure, if you get Mind Twisted for 4 on turn 1 and the opponent only lost a card doing that, you'll have trouble recovering, but it's more likely you got Mind Twisted for 4 and they had to use 3 cards for that, at which point you can recover. It's especially true for Pox, actually, as their individual card quality is low and opponents can recover from topdecking just by drawing better cards (unless there's a lock piece like Nether Void in play).
I never mind twisted a player's hand but I had (under several occasions) double hymn a player's hand. It costed me 4 cards and a really luckly draw. The only difference I see is one less card on a luckly draw.
In my opinion I see players Mind Twisting for 3/4 cards more on the first then then a double hymn. The question is would that be too much of a distraction? Are players going to get pissy about an early turn mind twist?
I did get hit hard with a black vise over the weekend. Sure the players were a few friends of mine but I sort of figured they were going to play with black vise.
grizelbrand is also more suspectible to removal and no to forget,karakas is repeatable.
being a creature makes a huge difference(you can reanimate him),so I'm not sure should bargain be unbanned.
But when not sure leave as it is seams like a best option,cause it would be bad to legalize something just to have it banned after a few months.
Mana drain in a deck like miracles would be too much.
Mind twist is ok to unban,it's a relic.
If you're pointing removal at a Griselbrand, you've probably already lost the game.
Mind Twist has a niche, it would see some play. It's not going to tear up the format. Card is seriously good in Matches between fair decks.
I'm not sure about the odds, maybe you should mindtwist yourself for 3 to 4 cards on the first turn for a few times and see if you can recover. I don't think you can.
Don't try to divert conversation, you said,
At average players start with 2 to 3 lands in the opening hand, all you need to do is mindtwist 3 to 4 cards to win.
Defend those as true or concede them to be false. We know that players do not start with 2 to 3 lands in their opening hand, and I know you know this because you've used it as an argument against brainstorm, that it allows players to start with a "free mulligan" so don't bull***** me. Explain how losing 3 to 4 random cards ensures a loss of the game, as the person causing you to lose 3 to 4 cards is also losing 3 cards. An effect like that, where the upside is so symmetrical at that point is not so strong.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
We know that players do not start with 2 to 3 lands in their opening hand, and I know you know this because you've used it as an argument against brainstorm, that it allows players to start with a "free mulligan" so don't bull***** me.
Every deck list that I had seen that is playing brainstorm is playing 20 lands. If your playing 20 lands the average IS 2 to 3 lands in the opening hand. Sure you can get 4 just as well as you can see 1 and none.
What I don't know and do not care about is the actually percentage. I think it's somewhere between 2.3 lands on the draw.
Explain how losing 3 to 4 random cards ensures a loss of the game, as the person causing you to lose 3 to 4 cards is also losing 3 cards. An effect like that, where the upside is so symmetrical at that point is not so strong.
To me this seems like I'm trying to explain why we play wastelands...
The aggressive play plays a swamp, casts 2 dark rituals and feeds the 5 black mana to a mind twist. End result opponent must randomly discard 4 cards. We see the aggressive player playing 4 cards to cause this effect. therefore that player has 3 cards left in there hand. Out of the 4 cards that was played 1 is a land and 3 are spells. The land stays in play.
The opponent has 7 cards and 3 of the cards are lands. If the opponent had the option to choose and discard the cards they most-likely choose what they are willing to lose. Random denies this option. Therefore at best the aggressive player have 4 chances to take out the 3 lands. I know the odds of loosing all 3 lands is rare but loosing 2 lands and 2 other spells is devastating.
In the end I've used 4 cards but 1 of the 4 cards is a land and the opponent looses 4 cards.
The aggressive game play is to feed your 5 mana on turn one into an Ad Nauseum, and win the game on the spot.
Spending 3 cards and five mana to make them discard 4 only puts you up one card. If we're willing to spend five mana to gain a single card advantage, why not just run Divination.
The aggressive game play is to feed your 5 mana on turn one into an Ad Nauseum, and win the game on the spot.
Spending 3 cards and five mana to make them discard 4 only puts you up one card. If we're willing to spend five mana to gain a single card advantage, why not just run Divination.
If I was playing Ant then why would I play Mind Twist? I don't think I'm the only player that uses Dark Ritual in Pox and a Pox deck is not going to use Ad Nauseum. (Sorry but the argument makes no sense.)
As for the one card advantage... I think the setup is awesome for Pox players (That's how I see it). Is it enough to keep Mind Twist banned... I'm not sure.
Going back to what I said earlier and I'll stand by it since it's the pattern that Wizards had made... no cards are going to be unbanned until Brainstorm breaks something again. As far as I know Mind Twist is another ban bone wizards will throw us Legacy players if the ban gets too hot.
We know that players do not start with 2 to 3 lands in their opening hand, and I know you know this because you've used it as an argument against brainstorm, that it allows players to start with a "free mulligan" so don't bull***** me.
Every deck list that I had seen that is playing brainstorm is playing 20 lands.
And yet, when we look to delver, we find it coming in at under 20.
If your playing 20 lands the average IS 2 to 3 lands in the opening hand.
The average is 2.
Sure you can get 4 just as well as you can see 1 and none.
And, in legacy, one is far better tooled to keep fewer lands.
What I don't know and do not care about is the actually percentage. I think it's somewhere between 2.3 lands on the draw.
And yet you are talking about it.
Explain how losing 3 to 4 random cards ensures a loss of the game, as the person causing you to lose 3 to 4 cards is also losing 3 cards. An effect like that, where the upside is so symmetrical at that point is not so strong.
To me this seems like I'm trying to explain why we play wastelands...
It isn't. That's absurd.
The aggressive play plays a swamp, casts 2 dark rituals and feeds the 5 black mana to a mind twist. End result opponent must randomly discard 4 cards. We see the aggressive player playing 4 cards to cause this effect. therefore that player has 3 cards left in there hand. Out of the 4 cards that was played 1 is a land and 3 are spells. The land stays in play.
Look at that huge investment of resources. How are you so blind to that?
The opponent has 7 cards and 3 of the cards are lands. If the opponent had the option to choose and discard the cards they most-likely choose what they are willing to lose. Random denies this option. Therefore at best the aggressive player have 4 chances to take out the 3 lands. I know the odds of loosing all 3 lands is rare but loosing 2 lands and 2 other spells is devastating.
How? The CMC curve of legacy is absurdly low, and the deck manipulation extreme. That is not an automatic game loss. The average UR delver player can easily recover from that. Yet, the 'aggressive' player has invested tons of mana and resources into this effect. Not even mentioning that he now has 3 dead cards in his deck.
But let me attempt to phrase something you understand, something actually more likely than your magical christmas land scenario:
The aggressive player invests 5 mana and 4 cards into casting mind twist. The defending player casts FoW.
Mathematically, it is far more likely to have FoW and a blue card, than the hand you are suggesting. How is this not intuitive to you?
In the end I've used 4 cards but 1 of the 4 cards is a land and the opponent looses 4 cards.
Yes. In that magical christmas land scenario you have a slight card advantage. The opponent does not now have 3 dead cards in his deck.
The aggressive game play is to feed your 5 mana on turn one into an Ad Nauseum, and win the game on the spot.
Spending 3 cards and five mana to make them discard 4 only puts you up one card. If we're willing to spend five mana to gain a single card advantage, why not just run Divination.
If I was playing Ant then why would I play Mind Twist? I don't think I'm the only player that uses Dark Ritual in Pox and a Pox deck is not going to use Ad Nauseum. (Sorry but the argument makes no sense.)
That's not the point. The point is not "ANT is better than Pox" the point is "Why in God's name would you invest 3 cards and 5 mana into something that gets you so little of an upside?"
As for the one card advantage... I think the setup is awesome for Pox players (That's how I see it). Is it enough to keep Mind Twist banned... I'm not sure.
You think a single point of CA is 'awesome' Hymm does this so much better. Hymm is better than Mind Twist in that, when you don't get that magical hand, it is still worthwhile.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
You think a single point of CA is 'awesome' Hymm does this so much better. Hymm is better than Mind Twist in that, when you don't get that magical hand, it is still worthwhile.
I don't know what else you want me to do besides say "Lets unban Mind Twist!"
I said, I have doubts it'll come off the list because the card has potential in knocking out or most of the cards out of the players hand. This was the reason why it was banned at the first place.
I also said... wizards is not going to unban anything until brainstorm breaks something again. This opinion is based on recent unbannings.
I think so, but that goes both for bannings and unbannings. They mostly throw out unbannings as a consolation prize when something gets banned. The thing to do when something silly is going on in the format, as during the Treasure Cruise / DTT era, is to pick up a playset of those likely-to-be-unbanned cards before the hype train quadruples their value. Not necessarily to speculate, but just to save on cards when the inevitable bone gets tossed. I mean, who would want to pay more than a dime for a Black Vise?
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Hey guys, the first card on my list is Mana Drain. Sure it's good. It's really good. In particular with Vintage Keeper control strategies. It combos nicely with cards such as Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius. But who even plays those in Legacy? I don't see it breaking the format anytime soon. It's barely ran in any Vintage deck lists.
Mind Twist. Even in Vintage you rarely see this card. Un-ban it today in Legacy and you might see it in some Pox lists but it's still no Hymn to Tourach. Like Black Vise and World Gorger Dragon, it won't be breaking the format anytime soon.
Yawgmoth's Bargain. This might be the most controversial card on my list. Awesome card, in particular in combo decks. I don't see it as a staple in any Vintage decks and I'd love to see it the Legacy format at least for a few months just to see what sort of decks pop up. I'm assuming there might be a spike in price with Academy Rector but to be honest I don't see it breaking the format.
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
I would instantly replace ad nauseam with bargain.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
Part of me would love to see Mana Drain back. Only because I know counterspell is seldom used because of free Daze and counterbalance is a million times better. But because the card is very rare it may fetch 500 to 1000 dollars easy! Others seemed to believe that Jace would come in play a turn or so earlier. Sure it can happen but I have doubts because players need open mana for an early turn brainstorm/ponder.
Anyway... I do have doubts that wizards would unban Mana Drain because Mana Drain, Oath and Workshop were the major cards that forced wizards to redesign type 1 and 1.5 to Vintage and Legacy.
Mind Twist is still evil because a player can combo a major first turn mind twist. I don't see any good coming from this... but I thought wizards would never ban Black Vise so who knows. I do suspect if Mind Twist comes off the ban one of two things need to happen (this is based on what I had saw in the past).
1 - another cards banned because of black vise.
2 - nothing happens to the ban list for almost 2 years.
Because the draws are instant I think Bargain is more busted then Necro. Sorry, I don't see it coming off the list because storm will drop Ad Nausea in a second.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I think you're wrong to compare it to Necropotence. Bargain's most immediate role would probably be as a replacement of Ad Nauseam. All of a sudden you're no longer penalized for CMC, and you can pause part way through to cantrip or do other actions. It's tough to say for me if the 1 mana increase over ad naus is enough to make up for how much more broken the effect is. I'm comfortable calling this one unsafe to unban.
Re: Mind Twist
Soldier, what would the point be of trying to combo an early mind twist? Any deck that could do it would be better off just killing the opponent with that mana anyway. I can't see mind twist seeing meaningful play if unbanned.
Re: Mana Drain
While the format is faster and lower to the ground than it was when we last had mana drain, I still am very comfortable leaving this on the ban list. It's insane how much of an edge you get, even from as little as two mana. I love that legacy is blue format, but I'd rather not spike it quite that hard.
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I don't see it being safe or more safer than Necro. I do wish Necro was unbanned in legacy only because I don't think it was banned fairly. The banning was based on TRIX in extended while the true offender was Oath of Druids (talk about nuts). I know Necro will never see Legacy so it's not worth talking about. I do enjoy Necro in EDH and as long as Necro is legal in EDH I'm happy...
At average players start with 2 to 3 lands in the opening hand, all you need to do is mindtwist 3 to 4 cards to win.
Like I said I have doubts it would ever come off the ban list... I would believe Survival would be unbanned before we see Mana Drain, Necro or even Bargain come off the ban list.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Bargain has advantages over Ad Nauseum, but also disadvantages (IE, you still lose a life for drawing 0 CMC cards, and it costs 6 rather than 5). It's effect is clearly not banworthy when stapled to a 7/7 Flying Lifelink creature for two extra mana, so it's worth consideration.
Mind Twist should be an easy unban: It's pointless to ritual into the card (Because you could just win instead) in combo decks; and other decks won't be casting for game breaking amounts until turn 3-4 at the earliest. It's powerful in Control/MidRange vs. Control/Midrange match ups, but meh...
I'm pretty sure that's just not true in legacy. CMC curves in legacy are incredibly low to the ground.
That's also not true in math, the cards from mindtwist are random, discarding 3 random cards is not the same as discarding 3 non-land cards. You're just very wrong.
If you'd been told to discard 3 or 4 cards you get to pick 3 or 4 cards. Discarding 3 or 4 random cards is out of your control. Sure there is no guarantee the opponent is completely screwed but the odds are the opponent is screwed and not able to recover. There is a reason why for a short time Hymn was banned.
Is the card going to be played or not... that depends on the meta. I have no control on what is banned or what can come off the ban list. All I can do (and the same goes with you and anybody else posting this) is ASSUME WHY THE CARD IS ON THE BAN LIST. JUST LIKE WE CAN ASSUME THE CARD IS SAFE.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Explain to me your statement. How have you determined that the "odds are the opponent is screwed?" The reasoning provided in your previous post is completely insane. You have not provided any information, you have simply pretended to answer the question while actually avoiding it.
I doubt this to be true in any meaningful amount.
This statement is utterly meaningless. It has no relevance to anything said whatsoever.
Sweet... Did you quote Billy Madison?
I'm not sure about the odds, maybe you should mindtwist yourself for 3 to 4 cards on the first turn for a few times and see if you can recover. I don't think you can.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
If I was playing POX... Hell yeah I would go for a first turn mind twist. Sure if I'm playing ad Nauseam I wouldn't be playing Mind Twist.
I'd remember reading stories of players getting Mind twisted on the first turn and cursing the game. To the point they want to quite playing magic. I do believe wizards is looking at mind twist in that perspective.
Take your current deck, draw your cards and say "I'm being mindtwist for 4 cards." What would you do? What would you lose? Can you recover?
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Deathrite Shaman
Stoneforge Mystic
Show and Tell
Griselbrand
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tarmogoyf
Delver of Secrets
Hymn to Tourach
Sensei's Divining Top
Virtually everything else that's powerful enough to compete in every single legacy tournament regardless of field.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I don't understand the argument? I just pulled POX out of my ass because it's the only deck that came to my mind as a deck that would/could use Mind Twist on the first turn.
As far as I know... sure wizards can unban mind twist. I'm not stopping them. But I don't think wizards will unban anything right now, unless they are forced to ban cards that brainstorm breaks again. Do you think Black Vise would come off the ban list if wizards didn't have to ban 2 cards in less then 1 year? I think not.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Nope... The argument is adressed as... Why play POX it sucks....
I don't understand what does it have to do with POX being good or not good in a tournament.
I never mind twisted a player's hand but I had (under several occasions) double hymn a player's hand. It costed me 4 cards and a really luckly draw. The only difference I see is one less card on a luckly draw.
In my opinion I see players Mind Twisting for 3/4 cards more on the first then then a double hymn. The question is would that be too much of a distraction? Are players going to get pissy about an early turn mind twist?
I did get hit hard with a black vise over the weekend. Sure the players were a few friends of mine but I sort of figured they were going to play with black vise.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Regarding the past, take it with a grain of salt. Memnite would have been to good of a card 15 years ago. Think about that.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
If you're pointing removal at a Griselbrand, you've probably already lost the game.
Mind Twist has a niche, it would see some play. It's not going to tear up the format. Card is seriously good in Matches between fair decks.
Don't try to divert conversation, you said,
Defend those as true or concede them to be false. We know that players do not start with 2 to 3 lands in their opening hand, and I know you know this because you've used it as an argument against brainstorm, that it allows players to start with a "free mulligan" so don't bull***** me. Explain how losing 3 to 4 random cards ensures a loss of the game, as the person causing you to lose 3 to 4 cards is also losing 3 cards. An effect like that, where the upside is so symmetrical at that point is not so strong.
Ok I'm game and I'll go line by line...
Every deck list that I had seen that is playing brainstorm is playing 20 lands. If your playing 20 lands the average IS 2 to 3 lands in the opening hand. Sure you can get 4 just as well as you can see 1 and none.
What I don't know and do not care about is the actually percentage. I think it's somewhere between 2.3 lands on the draw.
To me this seems like I'm trying to explain why we play wastelands...
The aggressive play plays a swamp, casts 2 dark rituals and feeds the 5 black mana to a mind twist. End result opponent must randomly discard 4 cards. We see the aggressive player playing 4 cards to cause this effect. therefore that player has 3 cards left in there hand. Out of the 4 cards that was played 1 is a land and 3 are spells. The land stays in play.
The opponent has 7 cards and 3 of the cards are lands. If the opponent had the option to choose and discard the cards they most-likely choose what they are willing to lose. Random denies this option. Therefore at best the aggressive player have 4 chances to take out the 3 lands. I know the odds of loosing all 3 lands is rare but loosing 2 lands and 2 other spells is devastating.
In the end I've used 4 cards but 1 of the 4 cards is a land and the opponent looses 4 cards.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Spending 3 cards and five mana to make them discard 4 only puts you up one card. If we're willing to spend five mana to gain a single card advantage, why not just run Divination.
If I was playing Ant then why would I play Mind Twist? I don't think I'm the only player that uses Dark Ritual in Pox and a Pox deck is not going to use Ad Nauseum. (Sorry but the argument makes no sense.)
As for the one card advantage... I think the setup is awesome for Pox players (That's how I see it). Is it enough to keep Mind Twist banned... I'm not sure.
Going back to what I said earlier and I'll stand by it since it's the pattern that Wizards had made... no cards are going to be unbanned until Brainstorm breaks something again. As far as I know Mind Twist is another ban bone wizards will throw us Legacy players if the ban gets too hot.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
And yet, when we look to delver, we find it coming in at under 20.
The average is 2.
And, in legacy, one is far better tooled to keep fewer lands.
And yet you are talking about it.
It isn't. That's absurd.
Look at that huge investment of resources. How are you so blind to that?
How? The CMC curve of legacy is absurdly low, and the deck manipulation extreme. That is not an automatic game loss. The average UR delver player can easily recover from that. Yet, the 'aggressive' player has invested tons of mana and resources into this effect. Not even mentioning that he now has 3 dead cards in his deck.
But let me attempt to phrase something you understand, something actually more likely than your magical christmas land scenario:
The aggressive player invests 5 mana and 4 cards into casting mind twist. The defending player casts FoW.
Mathematically, it is far more likely to have FoW and a blue card, than the hand you are suggesting. How is this not intuitive to you?
Yes. In that magical christmas land scenario you have a slight card advantage. The opponent does not now have 3 dead cards in his deck.
That's not the point. The point is not "ANT is better than Pox" the point is "Why in God's name would you invest 3 cards and 5 mana into something that gets you so little of an upside?"
You think a single point of CA is 'awesome' Hymm does this so much better. Hymm is better than Mind Twist in that, when you don't get that magical hand, it is still worthwhile.
I don't know what else you want me to do besides say "Lets unban Mind Twist!"
I said, I have doubts it'll come off the list because the card has potential in knocking out or most of the cards out of the players hand. This was the reason why it was banned at the first place.
I also said... wizards is not going to unban anything until brainstorm breaks something again. This opinion is based on recent unbannings.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!