Clearly it is the effect being discussed. Beyond that decks find ways to play cards as efficiently as possible when they are you win condition. Omnitell, sneak and show, reanimator, etc are clearly all examples of decks that hardcast expensive spells.
First of all, none of those decks hardcast their wins.
Second, cost definitely needs to be a factor, throwing annoying enablers into a deck in order to acquire an enabler and win condition is very important.
And as yet another aside: bargain, necro, ad naseum, and Griselbrand are common cards to discuss with regards to each other as similar effects. Quite the opposite of eternal witness and craterhoof.
I don't think they are common cards t discuss in regard to each other, they serve very distinctly different roles.
Then you completely missed my point. We have an actual "I win" necro in griselbrand. Storm isn't required there. How is necro better then a necro+?
One's far easier to use than the other. Are you really trying to say that Griselbrand is better than Necro?
And I will again point out necro needs additional cards to win
Because it's an enabler! It's a cheap, fantastic enabler.
whereas griselbrand is a win con by itself with the bonus of card draw. That in fact does make them both "2 card combos" Your examples are asinine.
No, they aren't both two card combos. Enabler + Spells is not a combo. Scrounging your deck for two specific cards is! Do you not see the huge difference?
I would love to see turn one Trinisphere and Chalice/Sphere/Orbs more consistent on turn one. But how many other things would be broken in the process?
I really wouldn't. That would be too powerful of hate.
As a new Legacy player, I hope they ban Show and Tell, though I know they won't.
It seems to be making a resurgence, and it's just a stupidly powerful and unfun card.
It's literally a 1-card combo. 1-card because it only requires one spell to resolve.
That is a very deviant definition of 1-card combo.
Painter or other combos require getting two permanents onto the board. Storm requires a complex gameplay and forethought. SnT requires resolving exactly one cheap spell.
But that is still a form of acceleration? If that is the case, why do you not hate Natural Order? They are the same card, one working in one way to another. Each can win the game for you there and then.
You know why Show and Tell will never get the hammer? Because the best players despise playing Show and Tell decks.
No they don't. Just half a year ago, it was the deck to beat, tons of pros played it. Many still do.
They hate playing this oversimplistic "strategy". They prefer playing more complex decks, which requires more skill.
It sounds like you lost, and now hate the deck.
As a result you'll have few Show and Tell decks in top 8s.
Not really, you went far further than simply stating that Griselbrand has a greater effect.
Griselbrand = draw engine and win con in one
Necro = only a draw engine
Trying to argue the cost of either is ignoring how the cards play which, as a third time now, was still the point.
Not really, it's the point you've been trying to force since people have been disagreeing with you. It wasn't what we as a whole were doing, we were actually evaluating cards, not simply spouting the simplistic idea that Griselbrand is stronger on the field.
A "you lost, now you hate it" shot alongside calling someone a conspiracy theorist are unwarranted personal shots. Warning issued for trolling.
- Teia
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
I would absolutely prefer to have griselbrand in play in comparison to necro and bargain. But in terms of jumping through hoops griselbrand requires way more hoops to jump through that necro when you load your deck up with 8 cards that add the mana cost of necro (dark rit and cabal rit) and 8+ more that conditionally add the mana cost (petal, LED, and chrome mox/mox diamond/mox opal for that matter.) Yawgmoth's bargain is worth far more consideration as an unban because the hoops you have to jump through to get bargain in play are harder in comparison to griselbrand and harder than putting an ad nauseam on the stack/a card that is easily on par with bargain as over a third of your deck is literally free in terms of lifeloss when you count all the lands and artifact mana storm decks run with very, very few 2+ drops in the deck that are worse to draw with ad nauseam than with bargain. Bargain needs you to be at a high enough life total. You can, in theory, win with ad nauseam starting at 3 life or even 2 if you lucksack and flip over double LED, petal, any cantrip, and cantrip into infernal tutor/burning wish/tendrils after cracking the 2 LEDs for mana in response to a cantrip. The difference between 5 and 6 mana in hand is gigantic in storm decks when storm decks are almost completely reliant on the infernal tutor LED interaction ANT moreso than TES since TES runs wish/you don't need to be hellbent.
Show and tell is a fundamentally stronger card than natural order main reason being it's blue and costs 1 less. The restrictions on natural order kept it fair for a long while and even now it has only really 2 good targets in progenitus/a pretty bad card now and an overrun on steroids that costs 1 less than actual overrun. Both cards are only as good as the cards they cheat into play and show and tell puts in far stronger cards than natural order and can actually be shoved into any blue shell on the planet alongside 4 griselbrand/emrakul and win. Both are card disadvantage on the surface but card disadvantage really doesn't matter anymore if it did JTMS would be the best card in legacy not close but JTMS is nowhere near the top. The virtual card advantage gained by immediately winning the game is actually infinite otherwise lion's eye diamond would still be worth a quarter as it is one of the heaviest hits to card advantage you can actually take in terms of going minus cards in hand and in play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Show and Tell is distasteful to a lot of folks, but that doesn't stop them from playing it. Recall Drew Levin's crusade to try to get Show and Tell banned by playing Omnitell all over the place. I think a lot of people on this forum, myself included, will bring to any given tournament the strongest deck they can possibly field. If it were truly so simply to just resolve a 2U spell and win the game, we'd see it at the top tables a lot more often. There are no easy Legacy decks.
The comparison between Griselbrand, Yawgmoth's Bargain, and Necropotence is astounding to me. Griselbrand is barely safe: I am actually quite impressed how close wizards was able to come to the "overpowering" line with this card and yet fall short of it. There was a time when many players considered this the best thing in Legacy, and Reanimator/Sneaky Show exploded in popularity. They were put in their place.
Griselbrand: multiples of 7 only, including the life loss; vulnerable to creature hate; vulnerable to Karakas. Ways to cheat it out involve the opponent getting a free permanent or using the graveyard.
Yawgmoth's Bargain: You can Show and Tell this in, but the most natural shell is possibly Storm. Unlike Ad Naueseam, you get to play 4 of these. Invulnerable to creature hate; impossible to Karakas; draw 1 card at a time. I'm sure you've ever seen someone Grisel down to 6 life in response to a Swords to Plowshares and miss on a Force of Will. It's not that rare. That would happen a lot less with the Bargain.
Necropotence: This is close to worst possible unban. Are we enjoying the effects of the "easy card draw" offered by Treasure Cruise? If the answer is no, why would we want to bring out a much more obscene and ridiculous source of card advantage? Do we really want to wade through articles filled with lines like, "I drew Necropotence and won," or perhaps watch feature matches of one player casting Necropotence and the other player deprived of the opportunity to play Magic?
Not I.
On the other hand, black would be the new blue: but who are we kidding... black/blue would be the new blue.
Well, I hate to admit this but TC is going to be banned.
Why? I just bought all the cards to play Jeskai Ascendancy and was going to play it last Saturday but nobody showed up. Was then going to bring it on Tuesday but traffic on the GSP made it impossible to make it down. This Saturday, the last one before the B&R announcement, there is no Legacy because of pre release. So when the next announcement comes out, my next opportunity to play (that Saturday) the card will no longer be legal and I will have bought a deck for nothing.
That's the way this year has gone for me since it started. First my computer dies, then my web sites go down because the guy I get my hosting from didn't pay his bill and then another computer has troubles and now this.
So it's official. TC will be banned and you can blame it on my lousy luck.
With that, we can get back to talking about Necro.
Well, I hate to admit this but TC is going to be banned.
Why? I just bought all the cards to play Jeskai Ascendancy and was going to play it last Saturday but nobody showed up. Was then going to bring it on Tuesday but traffic on the GSP made it impossible to make it down. This Saturday, the last one before the B&R announcement, there is no Legacy because of pre release. So when the next announcement comes out, my next opportunity to play (that Saturday) the card will no longer be legal and I will have bought a deck for nothing.
That's the way this year has gone for me since it started. First my computer dies, then my web sites go down because the guy I get my hosting from didn't pay his bill and then another computer has troubles and now this.
So it's official. TC will be banned and you can blame it on my lousy luck.
With that, we can get back to talking about Necro.
I'm so confused - on why you think the card is going to be banned... The card only works in a few decks and it omits a big chunk of graveyard strategy. (Once again... if TC is that bad... then we should stop and look at the real problem card... although, I've been told we shouldnt talk about that card for a few weeks)
If TC gets banned it'll be banned in Modern. Although, I believe Bolt should be banned in modern because players are forced to play with fetches and shock-lands, and bolt is too aggressive for that format.
Going back to Necro talks... I'm not sure how I could talk about the card while everybody seemed to forget the facts.
Fact 1... Necro was deemed a good card when 'Wizards banned black vise.'
Fact 2... Necro was put in check with sligh (now sligh at the time was nothing compared to the creatures we have today)...
Interesting fact about this, because at that time wizards consider a 2/1 creature for 1cc was bad for the format. Today we are getting a 2/1 per set.
Fact 3... Necro did not break Type 1. It was restricted when wizards was forced to deal with TRIX. Because Necro was restricted in type 1 it was automatic banned in type 1.5.
Fact 4... Trix broke necro... [Say whatever you want to say... The fact is Trix in extended is what broke necro]
Fact 5... Oath of Druids made Trix playable! Here is the evil truth about Trix. If wizards banned Oath of Druids in extended, Trix would had died.
Would Necro be used in a storm deck? I dont see it happening, even at best your gaining 14 life and your going to sink that life to draw up more cards, so it's not much of a gain. Sure players will try to use Necro in storm, but would it make storm better? (that would be interesting to talk about but I fail to see this awesome deck)
Would everybody play Dark Ritual + Necro? When did that become an issue? If it's for blue then why not black? (I would like to talk about this)
Necro played in control and Argo... Maybe. But what decks would use this card?
I would welcome an unbanning of Black Vise if Necro was unbanned too...
I'm so confused - on why you think the card is going to be banned... The card only works in a few decks and it omits a big chunk of graveyard strategy. (Once again... if TC is that bad... then we should stop and look at the real problem card... although, I've been told we shouldnt talk about that card for a few weeks)
I've noticed you repeatedly bring up Brainstorm in this thread as a problematic card. Then someone makes a counterargument, you sorta just disappear, then come back a week or two later to repeat the same thing you said the first time. Please address the actual arguments or stop bringing up the same (countered) points over and over.
If TC gets banned it'll be banned in Modern. Although, I believe Bolt should be banned in modern because players are forced to play with fetches and shock-lands, and bolt is too aggressive for that format.
I don't know what to tell you here. Go to the Modern thread and discuss over there?
Going back to Necro talks... I'm not sure how I could talk about the card while everybody seemed to forget the facts.
Fact 1... Necro was deemed a good card when 'Wizards banned black vise.'
And? Some bans are relics, some are still relevant. The time a card is banned doesn't tell us whether it is a Land Tax or a Yawg Will.
Fact 2... Necro was put in check with sligh (now sligh at the time was nothing compared to the creatures we have today)...
Interesting fact about this, because at that time wizards consider a 2/1 creature for 1cc was bad for the format. Today we are getting a 2/1 per set.
Which Necro are you talking about? That mono black Order of the Ebon Hand/Drain Life one that no one would play today, that Donate/Illusions of Grandeur deck that no one would play today, or some other Necro deck that no one would play today? Yeah, Delver of Secrets is better than Jackal Pup. But the combo options are also a lot better.
Fact 3... Necro did not break Type 1. It was restricted when wizards was forced to deal with TRIX. Because Necro was restricted in type 1 it was automatic banned in type 1.5.
Are you saying Necro would be fine unrestricted in Vintage?
Fact 4... Trix broke necro... [Say whatever you want to say... The fact is Trix in extended is what broke necro]
No. Necro broke Trix. Try playing Donate-Illusions without Necro. Try it. In fact, that UR version is 100% legal in Legacy but sees no play for good reason.
Fact 5... Oath of Druids made Trix playable! Here is the evil truth about Trix. If wizards banned Oath of Druids in extended, Trix would had died.
Uhh. Why? Serious question because I don't see how that follows.
Would Necro be used in a storm deck? I dont see it happening, even at best your gaining 14 life and your going to sink that life to draw up more cards, so it's not much of a gain. Sure players will try to use Necro in storm, but would it make storm better? (that would be interesting to talk about but I fail to see this awesome deck)
No? Why is 14 the max? You set up a hand to just kill them. Cards like cantrips, Infernal Tutor, and Past in Flames if you want lets you play more than the seven cards in your hand. And even when you "don't make it," you just refill your hand which is something that Ad Nauseam cannot do.
Would everybody play Dark Ritual + Necro? When did that become an issue? If it's for blue then why not black? (I would like to talk about this)
Everyone playing Dark Ritual + Necro would imply a combo infested meta. If I tell you that the metagame is 60% Brainstorm, what can you tell me about the decks that are seeing play? Almost nothing in regards to strategy.
Necro played in control and Argo... Maybe. But what decks would use this card?
What...? Combo. That's the decks that would use the card. Combo.
I would welcome an unbanning of Black Vise if Necro was unbanned too...
I would welcome Black Vise and Necro isn't even a part of the equation.
This discussion is mind boggling. I have no words.
No, wait...Nope, still no words.
Hold on...No, nothing yet.
Yeah, I'm dumbfounded.
So I'll just simplify this so we can MAYBE actually have an INTELLIGENT discussion about cards that might ACTUALLY have a chance of coming off the banned list.
Necro - NO way, NO how, not EVER. Ain't gonna happen. Dream on.
A one card BBB that can be cast easily turn 1 does not equal a 2 card 4BBBB combo that needs a perfect hand to go off turn 1.
Now, can we PLEASE talk about something like maybe Earthcraft that MIGHT have a chance of coming off the list? Or even Black Vise or Mind Twist. Necro talk is beyond absurd. It demonstrates either a cleverly veiled attempt at trolling or a total lack of understanding of the game of Magic.
No. Still now words.
Vise for my money is sinply forgotten about. The ban is symbolic now, or they have forgotten it is banned.
Mindtwist perhaps as much so.
Necro is Greek for "never coming off the banlist"
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
There's been a lot of banter on Facebook recently about the upcoming B/R and its associated speculation. The top players in my meta are of the opinion 1) cards will be unbanned and 2) Survival makes a comeback because of how many "answers" exist since its departure. It's really time WotC bring back some cards. Land Tax came back and didn't warp the format. I think some of the "lesser disputed" cards like 'Vise and 'Twist should come back into the format.
If I were WotC, I would make some kind of statement about cards that are on the proverbial fence (both legal and illegal for the format when the announcement is made). There has been a plethora of *****ing and moaning about cards that toe the line. I would say "we are looking very closely at X, Y, and Z because of their continual rise in power level with each new set". My 'watch list' includes Show and Tell, Delver, "aggressive filters/draw" (bstorm, ponder, g.probe, top, TC). At the same time, some cards like Survival and Mind's Desire may come down in power due to quality answers being printed. Both these cards are too close to make an unbanning IMHO and I'd make an announcement saying they may come back but now isn't the time"
I would bring back Survival only if we simultaneously banned the annoying crap like Vengevine and/or Necrotic Ooze that abuses it. Friends made great counterpoints on Facebook about how strong legacy staple cards are nowadays at combating SotF. Although there's more hate/answers, I'm not 100% sure. I certainly wouldn't want the meta to warp around VV-Survival as it did several years ago. Again, my conservative call would be to just announce Survival as a "we're watching the card closely and may indeed bring it back".
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
There's been a lot of banter on Facebook recently about the upcoming B/R and its associated speculation. The top players in my meta are of the opinion 1) cards will be unbanned and 2) Survival makes a comeback because of how many "answers" exist since its departure. It's really time WotC bring back some cards. Land Tax came back and didn't warp the format. I think some of the "lesser disputed" cards like 'Vise and 'Twist should come back into the format.
It would be nice to see survival back. I thought it was a silly ban because the popularity of the card was based on the assumption that your win average was higher then 50%.
If I were WotC, I would make some kind of statement about cards that are on the proverbial fence (both legal and illegal for the format when the announcement is made). There has been a plethora of *****ing and moaning about cards that toe the line. I would say "we are looking very closely at X, Y, and Z because of their continual rise in power level with each new set". My 'watch list' includes Show and Tell, Delver, "aggressive filters/draw" (bstorm, ponder, g.probe, top, TC). At the same time, some cards like Survival and Mind's Desire may come down in power due to quality answers being printed. Both these cards are too close to make an unbanning IMHO and I'd make an announcement saying they may come back but now isn't the time"
The *****ing and moaning is based on not knowing what is this line that a card needs to crossed to be banned. I dont think TC had crossed the line but if I was going to call out a card that did, it would be brainstorm. While others would say, brainstorm is perfectly fine...
Talking about the card is not really *****ing and moaning. Although, I take offense when players say "Ban brainstorm and players will quit Legacy. Unban Necro and players will quit Legacy." Sorry, I dont believe the format is that flaky.
I would bring back Survival only if we simultaneously banned the annoying crap like Vengevine and/or Necrotic Ooze that abuses it. Friends made great counterpoints on Facebook about how strong legacy staple cards are nowadays at combating SotF. Although there's more hate/answers, I'm not 100% sure. I certainly wouldn't want the meta to warp around VV-Survival as it did several years ago. Again, my conservative call would be to just announce Survival as a "we're watching the card closely and may indeed bring it back".
This is why I'm not totally sold on the unbanning of survival.
@TolarianAcademy13 If I'm missing for a few days it's because some of the replies are borderline flamming and I'd decided not to fall into that trap.
I'd never changed my feelings about brainstorm, only because I never agreed that TC is busted (or more busted then brainstorm). To me it makes no sense in banning TC over brainstorm. (I had made my point several times with this issue and the best I got from other players is, "If brainstorm is banned players will quit, all the decks are killed (which seems silly because that statement says's so much about a warped format) and why not ban an island."
As for necro. 2 simple questions.
1, will the card do damage to the format? I dont see it happening because Legacy is loaded with 1,2,3 turn decks. Sure not every deck is that fast but they do have the potential to be that fast. I dont see Necro being any faster.
2, will the card add to the format? I think it will.
Oath of Druids made it impossible for players to play agro decks. Which allowed a player to necro for 14 cards to play illusions and donate the card.
I think Necro would hurt the format due the consistency it would add to Storm. If we where looking at a situation where Storm was a dead archetype then your questions would have some level of merit, but as of right now that is not the case.
I would honestly say that, as someone who plays and loves Storm (I play it infrequently though) that I would enjoy the domination that the unbanning would give. The removal of the current restrictions placed on Storm decks (Most noticeablely CMC and streamlined construction) would make for interesting but at this point unnecessary changes for the format for the worse.
If we have the option to unban something, would we use it on a card like Necro that would push a currently viable deck to new (unnecessary) heights or should we not seek to unban the cards on that list that can spawn new decks (Survival) or just need not be there (like Twist)?
Lastly, I was reading Steven Menendian's book the other day on the history of Vintage. It covers quite well the reason that at the time things like Mind Twist and Vise where banned. The bans are a legacy holdover from those early days and the format (both Vintage and Legacy) no longer look as they did when the bannings where most definitely needed. While I think both these cards would not be fun to play against, I think they could both be given some time to see what they offer the format and should they be seen causing issues, rebanned if needed.
I would say though, I think Vise will be less than harmless on the format. It is not like GGT is in Modern. Unbaning Vise will cause real waves in Legacy.
I'm with you LBS. Necro is not close to being fair until WotC prints enough broken ass ***** that necro is then fair but as magic as a game currently stands hell no. 3/2 for U? 2/1 that makes 1/1's for 1R? 4/4 lifelink for 2WW? None of this comes remotely close to necro powerlevel wise. I'll give you all a hint what everyone would be playing if necropotence was legal oh right 4 necropotence and 4 dark ritual's automatically. I hadn't thought of serum powder in necro decklists but that's just even scarier. Use force of will to protect the combo? No sir force of will is bad with LED and not black/the main color of the necro deck I would happily sling 4 unmask though as turn 1'ing necro with unmask backup is the sickest thing. Discard works just as well as countermagic AND lets you see what your opponent is doing hell it protects you from their necro resolving whether they have discard to back up their necro or not. The entire format is a coinflip to see who goes first in 2 games as whoever resolves necro first is heavily favored to win the game. This entire discussion is the most irrelevant thing on the planet right now as WotC will never unban necro in legacy because it literally broke the game for several years in an era that WotC wishes never occurred because back then the game was degenerate beyond belief and made people quit in droves.
And with all the additional enablers that have been printed since Black Summer, Necro would be even more busted. In fact, I could put up a deck list right now that would be near impossible to beat. You'd have an entire format of either decks playing necro or decks designed to beat necro, if even possible.
I remember 96 or whenever the hell it was. I don't want to go back there again. Not ever.
And I love broken magic. But THAT is beyond broken. You might as well be playing with 20 Channel, 20 Black Lotus and 20 Fireball.
You know, I just watched a Standard Delver deck beat a Standard Necro deck and it wasn't even close. I'm not entirely sure what WotC was thinking when they made Delver, but just watching that match made me realize that they probably weren't.
This probably doesn't have anything to do with your current argument, I just wanted to chime that in.
Btw, I see your point and wouldn't want Necro legal. There are plenty of answers for Necro, but the ability to just shove so many cards into your hand in response is ridiculous.
We've still got about a day left on the Brainstorm embargo, so let's just casually shelve any talk of Brainstorm until it's cool to talk about again, okay? Brainstorm might be divisive but not everything has to come back to it.
There's been a lot of banter on Facebook recently about the upcoming B/R and its associated speculation. The top players in my meta are of the opinion 1) cards will be unbanned and 2) Survival makes a comeback because of how many "answers" exist since its departure. It's really time WotC bring back some cards. Land Tax came back and didn't warp the format. I think some of the "lesser disputed" cards like 'Vise and 'Twist should come back into the format.
I still think its bs survival got the axe compared to sneak and show, reanimator, eves, and ilk which are similiar creature cheat decks that have proven to be fair and viable. Not to mention Survival has actually gotten weaker as more cards got printed with very powerful hate cards now commonplace in the format.
It would be another Christmas for me if I get to play one of my favorite legacy decks of all time.
If I were WotC, I would make some kind of statement about cards that are on the proverbial fence (both legal and illegal for the format when the announcement is made). There has been a plethora of *****ing and moaning about cards that toe the line. I would say "we are looking very closely at X, Y, and Z because of their continual rise in power level with each new set". My 'watch list' includes Show and Tell, Delver, "aggressive filters/draw" (bstorm, ponder, g.probe, top, TC). At the same time, some cards like Survival and Mind's Desire may come down in power due to quality answers being printed. Both these cards are too close to make an unbanning IMHO and I'd make an announcement saying they may come back but now isn't the time"
I don't think it would do anything, <wotc strait up said they think brainstorm is too good, but is treating as a meta defining card and thus will not get the axe and people still constantly ***** on it>. I don't want them making such statements that they might have to revoke either so I would rather them to stay silent here. The less wotc does for legacy the better, the best thing they can do to the format is take 1 card off the banlist every update to see if its fair (at least for the ones that stand a chance of being fair, obv I don't want to see power, flash, gush, etc come off).
I would bring back Survival only if we simultaneously banned the annoying crap like Vengevine and/or Necrotic Ooze that abuses it. Friends made great counterpoints on Facebook about how strong legacy staple cards are nowadays at combating SotF. Although there's more hate/answers, I'm not 100% sure. I certainly wouldn't want the meta to warp around VV-Survival as it did several years ago. Again, my conservative call would be to just announce Survival as a "we're watching the card closely and may indeed bring it back".
Why? Vengevine is probably not even good and ooze is a 4 drops that wins the game, ie par for the course in legacy. Deathrite and rip are both ways to strait kill the graveyard interaction survival enjoys and both have a ton of reason to see play. Vengevine swarm is also lackluster these days, it eats up 8 decks slots for vines and rootwallas, and its still not as strong as say omitell. It also takes like GGGG1 to just get a vine into play though granted it isn't paid all at once. I personally think survival was axed way prematurely and that was not even considering all the effective hate we enjoy today.
Warning issued for Brainstorm discussion during the period in which Brainstorm discussion is prohibited.
- Teia
Curious about something because I honestly don't remember. All the talk about Treasure Cruise that has been going on for a while now, was there as much talk about True-Name Nemesis before the last B&R list came out?
Curious about something because I honestly don't remember. All the talk about Treasure Cruise that has been going on for a while now, was there as much talk about True-Name Nemesis before the last B&R list came out?
Well, depends on what you mean. There was a lot of discussion, but it was less of "ban the card! It's overpowered!" than it was "I hate this stupid card and it never ever should have been printed but I have to admit it's not really banworthy on just power level but I sure wouldn't have any problem with it being banned."
No, it was basically the same. TNN was ruining Legacy (which had devolved into a play TNN or play against it format). It was play blue, play combo, or go home. People objected that it caused the to maindeck cards which hadn't been good to main deck previously. The meta was no longer balanced because we supposedly need blueless midrange decks to be bad vs combo but good vs tempo, and the meta was overall stale, non interactive, and no fun.
The fact is some people just hate blue and don't want to play anything besides midrange. These people will never be happy unless Jund, Maverick, Goblins, or some other midrange build (without blue) is the deck-to-beat.
Anytime blue gets a card which is strong enough to affect the meta you can expect the same reaction, as it just provides fuel for the blue haters.
Well, it's not always that simple. I can't speak for everyone who isn't a fan of All Blue All The Time, but in my case at least, it mostly has to do with how blue is the backbone of every archetype. Want to play an aggro deck? Blue has some of the best aggressive creatures in the format. Want to play a combo deck? Blue's got you covered with cantrip and protection and even some direct mono-blue combo kills. Want to play a control deck? Hallelujah, blue will give you the backbone of Miracles and one of its kill conditions.
It's not something that's really addressable with single bans (it'd take careful bans plus a continued shift in both R&D's priorities when it comes to cards entering the Eternal card pool and player attitudes towards the game), but it's fair to say that as far as colours go, it's a case of not wanting to accept the game being skewed in one direction rather than an inherent dislike of the colour or some archetypes.
As interesting as it'd be to ban some staple or another, such as Delver or Cruise or whatever, unbans are generally preferable to bans because it's better to add to players' options to foster diversity in a given direction rather than to constrain their options to make that direction suddenly better. Frankly, I'd like to see unbans that give more to non-blue decks and see what comes up (Recruiter probably wouldn't be too abusive in today's environment, for example, and Black Vise wouldn't restrict itself to one colour) rather than seeing blue constrained and pissing people off.
The fact is some people just hate blue and don't want to play anything besides midrange. These people will never be happy unless Jund, Maverick, Goblins, or some other midrange build (without blue) is the deck-to-beat.
Anytime blue gets a card which is strong enough to affect the meta you can expect the same reaction, as it just provides fuel for the blue haters.
When Blue gets a pushed card it is usually insane. Jace, the Mind Sculptor? How many other Planeswalker can realistically win a game with their ultimate in Legacy? Delver of Secrets? How many other colors get a 3/2 1CMC flyer? Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Treasure Cruise? Force of Will and Daze? Free spells? True-Name Nemesis? What else does Blue need?
The fact is that Blue is so dominant in Legacy that multiple decks are now running maindeck copies of Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast without the Painter's Servant combo. Miracles, Delver, Stoneblade, and even certain Goblins and Burn lists. All running Red Blast effects to combat the overwhelming presence of Blue. And what is the best card to run with REB in the maindeck? Brainstorm with Fetch Lands, to shuffle away the REB for when you run into D&T or Elves, or some other Non-Blue deck. It's so incestuous how a handful of Blue spells run rampant throughout a multi-thousand card format.
And Wizard's attempts at Hate Bears for Blue? Usually horrible. Spirit of the Labyrinth? Notion Thief? Almost unplayable in Legacy. By the time you've cast those cards your opponent has already drawn two or three more quality cards than you've drawn raw cards. And those Hate Bear cards are generally terrible in matches where opponents aren't drawing loads of cards.
It's not something that's really addressable with single bans (it'd take careful bans plus a continued shift in both R&D's priorities when it comes to cards entering the Eternal card pool and player attitudes towards the game), but it's fair to say that as far as colours go, it's a case of not wanting to accept the game being skewed in one direction rather than an inherent dislike of the colour or some archetypes.
As interesting as it'd be to ban some staple or another, such as Delver or Cruise or whatever, unbans are generally preferable to bans because it's better to add to players' options to foster diversity in a given direction rather than to constrain their options to make that direction suddenly better. Frankly, I'd like to see unbans that give more to non-blue decks and see what comes up (Recruiter probably wouldn't be too abusive in today's environment, for example, and Black Vise wouldn't restrict itself to one colour) rather than seeing blue constrained and pissing people off.
Just take Mishra's Workshop off of the ban list. People are WAY too conservative with their unbanning requests. If a card is unbanned for a few months and then banned again it is hardly a big deal in a format meant to last essentially eternally. People were afraid of Land Tax coming off of the banned list. Land Tax? A card that sees almost no play. Black Vise, Survival of the Fittest, and Mind Twist would create far more variety than they would eliminate by becoming legal again. But people are paranoid and are afraid of change.
There's so much hypocrisy in the competitive MTG scene it is pathetic. People whine at Wizards for not having powerful cards enter into Legacy and Modern from Standard sets and helping refresh Eternal formats. Then those same players can't understand that cards on the banned list have had their power level changed over the years with the printing of new cards. They don't accept that there's no difference between a new card entering Legacy from Standard versus a card banned ten years go becoming unbanned. A card that has not seen play in a decade is basically a new card for most players. The players who entered the MTG competitive scene after the card was made illegal have never played with the card in an 'Eternal' format.
You want to see some real exciting metagame changes to Legacy? A refreshing and exciting period? Take Mishra's Workshop and make it legal. As well as Survival, Mind Twist, Mana Drain, Vise, and a few more cards as well.
The format could use some shaking up. You make turn one Trinisphere more consistent and you'd see some different sideboard and maindeck packages for the ultra low CMC Delver/Cantrip lists. It would certainly slow the format down from turn one Elves and Storm kills. And Mishra's Workshop is a highly expensive Reserve List card. It's not like people are sitting on playsets just waiting for the unbanning. I doubt most mid-sized tournaments could field more than a few playsets of that card. It would not be format warping because a playset of Workshops is out of price range for most players.
As someone who plays Shop's in Vintage and owns actual Workshops. No.
Also if something is unbanned for a few months and then banned again, that is a big deal. Not everyone has the money to just buy new cards only to have them lose most of their value. Doublely so in a game like Legacy where costs are already high.
The problem with unbanning Workshop is that the price would skyrocket to about a grand per copy with the increased demand now that it's Legacy legal. And as much as I love MUD and play it already, I can't afford to sink $4,000 for lands into the deck. Even the $1,400 they now cost is too much for me.
I do agree though that banning cards isn't the answer. Printing answers and letting banned cards like Vise and Twist back into the format is the answer. If blue decks start getting punished a little more, you'll see a more diverse meta, not that I think it's not diverse as it is. Just because a lot of blue is played doesn't mean we don't have a lot of different decks with different play styles being played as well. I mean Delver, Stoneblade, TES, Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Solidarity and Miracles all play differently even though they all play blue cards. So in that respect, I am not seeing a real problem with Legacy.
Is the format perfect? No format is perfect. But it sure as hell beats Standard (always rotating), Modern (virtually run by the banned list) and Vintage (6 grand for a Lotus says it all). Of all the formats, I'll take Legacy just the way it is. It's still better than anything else available right now.
The greatest things in life are free and vintage is actually $0 + entry fee around here due to unlimited proxies and I assume it's like that in other places.
Mishra's workshop is a firm no. So look at legacy now and see how bad it is due to cruise. Multiply that by 1,000 if you legalize workshop. Are you a fan of being completely locked out before you play a single card? I'm not same with virtually every other player on the planet. Turn 2 lodestone/sphere, turn 2 sphere, turn 3 tangle wire, eventually we'll draw a wincon and start hitting you with it but for the moment enjoy your 4 mana brainstorms, 7 mana JTMS's, and 8 mana ad nauseams. Not format warping because it isn't easily available? That is the stupidest reason I have ever seen in terms of why you should legalize a card. Yeah there aren't many workshops out there/it couldn't have a heavy presence. But look at the top 8/16 of events and you'll see a heavy number of workshop decks piloted by friends of people who own workshops or people who own workshops.
That delver v necro video is pretty bad when Randy Buehler is a terrible player with terrible decklist besides the 4 dark rit and 4 necro. Knight of stromgald is never going to match up against delver of secrets. Doesn't help when Buehler could contagion the turn 1 delver game 1 pitching that *****ty knight of stromgald but instead lets his opponent hit him with it, not strip mine when opponent is stuck on 2 lands and get necro mana leaked. The game should have been a landslide in Buehler's favor but he played it terribly/didn't get to resolve necro because of it. Here's an example of what necro would look like today and it would be disgustingly better than all the iterations of necro back then because the threats are vastly superior namely tendrils of agony being a wincon that synergizes with your engine.
Ready to play against something disgusting like this? The best part about necro might be that you can't flusterstorm it because of its enchantment status/you have to flusterstorm actual dark ritual and that flusterstorm on the draw is pathetic. They have force of will or bust and if they don't well they're pretty ****ed over. Even if they do the best part is that you have 4 unmask to combat force of will or could potentially petal out duress on force then dark rit necro or dark rit LED tutor necro afterwards. The above list should never be possible in legacy and if you think it should I haven't the faintest idea as to what's going on in your head.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
The greatest things in life are free and vintage is actually $0 + entry fee around here due to unlimited proxies and I assume it's like that in other places.
Mishra's workshop is a firm no. So look at legacy now and see how bad it is due to cruise. Multiply that by 1,000 if you legalize workshop. Are you a fan of being completely locked out before you play a single card? I'm not same with virtually every other player on the planet. Turn 2 lodestone/sphere, turn 2 sphere, turn 3 tangle wire, eventually we'll draw a wincon and start hitting you with it but for the moment enjoy your 4 mana brainstorms, 7 mana JTMS's, and 8 mana ad nauseams. Not format warping because it isn't easily available? That is the stupidest reason I have ever seen in terms of why you should legalize a card. Yeah there aren't many workshops out there/it couldn't have a heavy presence. But look at the top 8/16 of events and you'll see a heavy number of workshop decks piloted by friends of people who own workshops or people who own workshops.
That delver v necro video is pretty bad when Randy Buehler is a terrible player with terrible decklist besides the 4 dark rit and 4 necro. Knight of stromgald is never going to match up against delver of secrets. Doesn't help when Buehler could contagion the turn 1 delver game 1 pitching that *****ty knight of stromgald but instead lets his opponent hit him with it, not strip mine when opponent is stuck on 2 lands and get necro mana leaked. The game should have been a landslide in Buehler's favor but he played it terribly/didn't get to resolve necro because of it. Here's an example of what necro would look like today and it would be disgustingly better than all the iterations of necro back then because the threats are vastly superior namely tendrils of agony being a wincon that synergizes with your engine.
Ready to play against something disgusting like this? The best part about necro might be that you can't flusterstorm it because of its enchantment status/you have to flusterstorm actual dark ritual and that flusterstorm on the draw is pathetic. They have force of will or bust and if they don't well they're pretty ****ed over. Even if they do the best part is that you have 4 unmask to combat force of will or could potentially petal out duress on force then dark rit necro or dark rit LED tutor necro afterwards. The above list should never be possible in legacy and if you think it should I haven't the faintest idea as to what's going on in your head.
Wow, that's the same deck I put together except for the Unmask. Didn't think of them. Wow, that makes it even more stupid being able to rip their counters away from them.
Stupid, stupid deck that would essentially be the only thing you'd see in Legacy, as much as I would love to put this thing together just once. LOL
The thought of being able to play with 4 Necropotence excites me. I hope it comes off. Yes, it's busted. Just like plenty of cards in Legacy are. Very few cards excite me as much as being able to play with Necropotence.
No it doesn't. It costs 4BBBB, a change in that cost is dependent upon annoyingly complicated situations.
First of all, none of those decks hardcast their wins.
Second, cost definitely needs to be a factor, throwing annoying enablers into a deck in order to acquire an enabler and win condition is very important.
I don't think they are common cards t discuss in regard to each other, they serve very distinctly different roles.
One's far easier to use than the other. Are you really trying to say that Griselbrand is better than Necro?
Because it's an enabler! It's a cheap, fantastic enabler.
No, they aren't both two card combos. Enabler + Spells is not a combo. Scrounging your deck for two specific cards is! Do you not see the huge difference?
I really wouldn't. That would be too powerful of hate.
That is a very deviant definition of 1-card combo.
Go play SnT. It really isn't.
No they don't. Just half a year ago, it was the deck to beat, tons of pros played it. Many still do.
It sounds like you lost, and now hate the deck.
You're getting quite conspiracy theorist here.
Not really, you went far further than simply stating that Griselbrand has a greater effect.
Not really, it's the point you've been trying to force since people have been disagreeing with you. It wasn't what we as a whole were doing, we were actually evaluating cards, not simply spouting the simplistic idea that Griselbrand is stronger on the field.
A "you lost, now you hate it" shot alongside calling someone a conspiracy theorist are unwarranted personal shots. Warning issued for trolling.
- Teia
Show and tell is a fundamentally stronger card than natural order main reason being it's blue and costs 1 less. The restrictions on natural order kept it fair for a long while and even now it has only really 2 good targets in progenitus/a pretty bad card now and an overrun on steroids that costs 1 less than actual overrun. Both cards are only as good as the cards they cheat into play and show and tell puts in far stronger cards than natural order and can actually be shoved into any blue shell on the planet alongside 4 griselbrand/emrakul and win. Both are card disadvantage on the surface but card disadvantage really doesn't matter anymore if it did JTMS would be the best card in legacy not close but JTMS is nowhere near the top. The virtual card advantage gained by immediately winning the game is actually infinite otherwise lion's eye diamond would still be worth a quarter as it is one of the heaviest hits to card advantage you can actually take in terms of going minus cards in hand and in play.
Currently Playing:
Retired
The comparison between Griselbrand, Yawgmoth's Bargain, and Necropotence is astounding to me. Griselbrand is barely safe: I am actually quite impressed how close wizards was able to come to the "overpowering" line with this card and yet fall short of it. There was a time when many players considered this the best thing in Legacy, and Reanimator/Sneaky Show exploded in popularity. They were put in their place.
Griselbrand: multiples of 7 only, including the life loss; vulnerable to creature hate; vulnerable to Karakas. Ways to cheat it out involve the opponent getting a free permanent or using the graveyard.
Yawgmoth's Bargain: You can Show and Tell this in, but the most natural shell is possibly Storm. Unlike Ad Naueseam, you get to play 4 of these. Invulnerable to creature hate; impossible to Karakas; draw 1 card at a time. I'm sure you've ever seen someone Grisel down to 6 life in response to a Swords to Plowshares and miss on a Force of Will. It's not that rare. That would happen a lot less with the Bargain.
Necropotence: This is close to worst possible unban. Are we enjoying the effects of the "easy card draw" offered by Treasure Cruise? If the answer is no, why would we want to bring out a much more obscene and ridiculous source of card advantage? Do we really want to wade through articles filled with lines like, "I drew Necropotence and won," or perhaps watch feature matches of one player casting Necropotence and the other player deprived of the opportunity to play Magic?
Not I.
On the other hand, black would be the new blue: but who are we kidding... black/blue would be the new blue.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Why? I just bought all the cards to play Jeskai Ascendancy and was going to play it last Saturday but nobody showed up. Was then going to bring it on Tuesday but traffic on the GSP made it impossible to make it down. This Saturday, the last one before the B&R announcement, there is no Legacy because of pre release. So when the next announcement comes out, my next opportunity to play (that Saturday) the card will no longer be legal and I will have bought a deck for nothing.
That's the way this year has gone for me since it started. First my computer dies, then my web sites go down because the guy I get my hosting from didn't pay his bill and then another computer has troubles and now this.
So it's official. TC will be banned and you can blame it on my lousy luck.
With that, we can get back to talking about Necro.
I'm so confused - on why you think the card is going to be banned... The card only works in a few decks and it omits a big chunk of graveyard strategy. (Once again... if TC is that bad... then we should stop and look at the real problem card... although, I've been told we shouldnt talk about that card for a few weeks)
If TC gets banned it'll be banned in Modern. Although, I believe Bolt should be banned in modern because players are forced to play with fetches and shock-lands, and bolt is too aggressive for that format.
Going back to Necro talks... I'm not sure how I could talk about the card while everybody seemed to forget the facts.
Fact 1... Necro was deemed a good card when 'Wizards banned black vise.'
Fact 2... Necro was put in check with sligh (now sligh at the time was nothing compared to the creatures we have today)...
Interesting fact about this, because at that time wizards consider a 2/1 creature for 1cc was bad for the format. Today we are getting a 2/1 per set.
Fact 3... Necro did not break Type 1. It was restricted when wizards was forced to deal with TRIX. Because Necro was restricted in type 1 it was automatic banned in type 1.5.
Fact 4... Trix broke necro... [Say whatever you want to say... The fact is Trix in extended is what broke necro]
Fact 5... Oath of Druids made Trix playable! Here is the evil truth about Trix. If wizards banned Oath of Druids in extended, Trix would had died.
Would Necro be used in a storm deck? I dont see it happening, even at best your gaining 14 life and your going to sink that life to draw up more cards, so it's not much of a gain. Sure players will try to use Necro in storm, but would it make storm better? (that would be interesting to talk about but I fail to see this awesome deck)
Would everybody play Dark Ritual + Necro? When did that become an issue? If it's for blue then why not black? (I would like to talk about this)
Necro played in control and Argo... Maybe. But what decks would use this card?
I would welcome an unbanning of Black Vise if Necro was unbanned too...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Vise for my money is sinply forgotten about. The ban is symbolic now, or they have forgotten it is banned.
Mindtwist perhaps as much so.
Necro is Greek for "never coming off the banlist"
If I were WotC, I would make some kind of statement about cards that are on the proverbial fence (both legal and illegal for the format when the announcement is made). There has been a plethora of *****ing and moaning about cards that toe the line. I would say "we are looking very closely at X, Y, and Z because of their continual rise in power level with each new set". My 'watch list' includes Show and Tell, Delver, "aggressive filters/draw" (bstorm, ponder, g.probe, top, TC). At the same time, some cards like Survival and Mind's Desire may come down in power due to quality answers being printed. Both these cards are too close to make an unbanning IMHO and I'd make an announcement saying they may come back but now isn't the time"
I would bring back Survival only if we simultaneously banned the annoying crap like Vengevine and/or Necrotic Ooze that abuses it. Friends made great counterpoints on Facebook about how strong legacy staple cards are nowadays at combating SotF. Although there's more hate/answers, I'm not 100% sure. I certainly wouldn't want the meta to warp around VV-Survival as it did several years ago. Again, my conservative call would be to just announce Survival as a "we're watching the card closely and may indeed bring it back".
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
It would be nice to see survival back. I thought it was a silly ban because the popularity of the card was based on the assumption that your win average was higher then 50%.
The *****ing and moaning is based on not knowing what is this line that a card needs to crossed to be banned. I dont think TC had crossed the line but if I was going to call out a card that did, it would be brainstorm. While others would say, brainstorm is perfectly fine...
Talking about the card is not really *****ing and moaning. Although, I take offense when players say "Ban brainstorm and players will quit Legacy. Unban Necro and players will quit Legacy." Sorry, I dont believe the format is that flaky.
This is why I'm not totally sold on the unbanning of survival.
@TolarianAcademy13 If I'm missing for a few days it's because some of the replies are borderline flamming and I'd decided not to fall into that trap.
I'd never changed my feelings about brainstorm, only because I never agreed that TC is busted (or more busted then brainstorm). To me it makes no sense in banning TC over brainstorm. (I had made my point several times with this issue and the best I got from other players is, "If brainstorm is banned players will quit, all the decks are killed (which seems silly because that statement says's so much about a warped format) and why not ban an island."
As for necro. 2 simple questions.
1, will the card do damage to the format? I dont see it happening because Legacy is loaded with 1,2,3 turn decks. Sure not every deck is that fast but they do have the potential to be that fast. I dont see Necro being any faster.
2, will the card add to the format? I think it will.
Oath of Druids made it impossible for players to play agro decks. Which allowed a player to necro for 14 cards to play illusions and donate the card.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I would honestly say that, as someone who plays and loves Storm (I play it infrequently though) that I would enjoy the domination that the unbanning would give. The removal of the current restrictions placed on Storm decks (Most noticeablely CMC and streamlined construction) would make for interesting but at this point unnecessary changes for the format for the worse.
If we have the option to unban something, would we use it on a card like Necro that would push a currently viable deck to new (unnecessary) heights or should we not seek to unban the cards on that list that can spawn new decks (Survival) or just need not be there (like Twist)?
Lastly, I was reading Steven Menendian's book the other day on the history of Vintage. It covers quite well the reason that at the time things like Mind Twist and Vise where banned. The bans are a legacy holdover from those early days and the format (both Vintage and Legacy) no longer look as they did when the bannings where most definitely needed. While I think both these cards would not be fun to play against, I think they could both be given some time to see what they offer the format and should they be seen causing issues, rebanned if needed.
I would say though, I think Vise will be less than harmless on the format. It is not like GGT is in Modern. Unbaning Vise will cause real waves in Legacy.
Dice.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
You know, I just watched a Standard Delver deck beat a Standard Necro deck and it wasn't even close. I'm not entirely sure what WotC was thinking when they made Delver, but just watching that match made me realize that they probably weren't.
This probably doesn't have anything to do with your current argument, I just wanted to chime that in.
Btw, I see your point and wouldn't want Necro legal. There are plenty of answers for Necro, but the ability to just shove so many cards into your hand in response is ridiculous.
*in case people wanted to see the vid:
http://youtu.be/VSdGWxqRCyk
I still think its bs survival got the axe compared to sneak and show, reanimator, eves, and ilk which are similiar creature cheat decks that have proven to be fair and viable. Not to mention Survival has actually gotten weaker as more cards got printed with very powerful hate cards now commonplace in the format.
It would be another Christmas for me if I get to play one of my favorite legacy decks of all time.
I don't think it would do anything, <wotc strait up said they think brainstorm is too good, but is treating as a meta defining card and thus will not get the axe and people still constantly ***** on it>. I don't want them making such statements that they might have to revoke either so I would rather them to stay silent here. The less wotc does for legacy the better, the best thing they can do to the format is take 1 card off the banlist every update to see if its fair (at least for the ones that stand a chance of being fair, obv I don't want to see power, flash, gush, etc come off).
Why? Vengevine is probably not even good and ooze is a 4 drops that wins the game, ie par for the course in legacy. Deathrite and rip are both ways to strait kill the graveyard interaction survival enjoys and both have a ton of reason to see play. Vengevine swarm is also lackluster these days, it eats up 8 decks slots for vines and rootwallas, and its still not as strong as say omitell. It also takes like GGGG1 to just get a vine into play though granted it isn't paid all at once. I personally think survival was axed way prematurely and that was not even considering all the effective hate we enjoy today.
Warning issued for Brainstorm discussion during the period in which Brainstorm discussion is prohibited.
- Teia
The fact is some people just hate blue and don't want to play anything besides midrange. These people will never be happy unless Jund, Maverick, Goblins, or some other midrange build (without blue) is the deck-to-beat.
Anytime blue gets a card which is strong enough to affect the meta you can expect the same reaction, as it just provides fuel for the blue haters.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
It's not something that's really addressable with single bans (it'd take careful bans plus a continued shift in both R&D's priorities when it comes to cards entering the Eternal card pool and player attitudes towards the game), but it's fair to say that as far as colours go, it's a case of not wanting to accept the game being skewed in one direction rather than an inherent dislike of the colour or some archetypes.
As interesting as it'd be to ban some staple or another, such as Delver or Cruise or whatever, unbans are generally preferable to bans because it's better to add to players' options to foster diversity in a given direction rather than to constrain their options to make that direction suddenly better. Frankly, I'd like to see unbans that give more to non-blue decks and see what comes up (Recruiter probably wouldn't be too abusive in today's environment, for example, and Black Vise wouldn't restrict itself to one colour) rather than seeing blue constrained and pissing people off.
When Blue gets a pushed card it is usually insane. Jace, the Mind Sculptor? How many other Planeswalker can realistically win a game with their ultimate in Legacy? Delver of Secrets? How many other colors get a 3/2 1CMC flyer? Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Treasure Cruise? Force of Will and Daze? Free spells? True-Name Nemesis? What else does Blue need?
The fact is that Blue is so dominant in Legacy that multiple decks are now running maindeck copies of Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast without the Painter's Servant combo. Miracles, Delver, Stoneblade, and even certain Goblins and Burn lists. All running Red Blast effects to combat the overwhelming presence of Blue. And what is the best card to run with REB in the maindeck? Brainstorm with Fetch Lands, to shuffle away the REB for when you run into D&T or Elves, or some other Non-Blue deck. It's so incestuous how a handful of Blue spells run rampant throughout a multi-thousand card format.
And Wizard's attempts at Hate Bears for Blue? Usually horrible. Spirit of the Labyrinth? Notion Thief? Almost unplayable in Legacy. By the time you've cast those cards your opponent has already drawn two or three more quality cards than you've drawn raw cards. And those Hate Bear cards are generally terrible in matches where opponents aren't drawing loads of cards.
Just take Mishra's Workshop off of the ban list. People are WAY too conservative with their unbanning requests. If a card is unbanned for a few months and then banned again it is hardly a big deal in a format meant to last essentially eternally. People were afraid of Land Tax coming off of the banned list. Land Tax? A card that sees almost no play. Black Vise, Survival of the Fittest, and Mind Twist would create far more variety than they would eliminate by becoming legal again. But people are paranoid and are afraid of change.
There's so much hypocrisy in the competitive MTG scene it is pathetic. People whine at Wizards for not having powerful cards enter into Legacy and Modern from Standard sets and helping refresh Eternal formats. Then those same players can't understand that cards on the banned list have had their power level changed over the years with the printing of new cards. They don't accept that there's no difference between a new card entering Legacy from Standard versus a card banned ten years go becoming unbanned. A card that has not seen play in a decade is basically a new card for most players. The players who entered the MTG competitive scene after the card was made illegal have never played with the card in an 'Eternal' format.
You want to see some real exciting metagame changes to Legacy? A refreshing and exciting period? Take Mishra's Workshop and make it legal. As well as Survival, Mind Twist, Mana Drain, Vise, and a few more cards as well.
The format could use some shaking up. You make turn one Trinisphere more consistent and you'd see some different sideboard and maindeck packages for the ultra low CMC Delver/Cantrip lists. It would certainly slow the format down from turn one Elves and Storm kills. And Mishra's Workshop is a highly expensive Reserve List card. It's not like people are sitting on playsets just waiting for the unbanning. I doubt most mid-sized tournaments could field more than a few playsets of that card. It would not be format warping because a playset of Workshops is out of price range for most players.
Also if something is unbanned for a few months and then banned again, that is a big deal. Not everyone has the money to just buy new cards only to have them lose most of their value. Doublely so in a game like Legacy where costs are already high.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
I do agree though that banning cards isn't the answer. Printing answers and letting banned cards like Vise and Twist back into the format is the answer. If blue decks start getting punished a little more, you'll see a more diverse meta, not that I think it's not diverse as it is. Just because a lot of blue is played doesn't mean we don't have a lot of different decks with different play styles being played as well. I mean Delver, Stoneblade, TES, Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Solidarity and Miracles all play differently even though they all play blue cards. So in that respect, I am not seeing a real problem with Legacy.
Is the format perfect? No format is perfect. But it sure as hell beats Standard (always rotating), Modern (virtually run by the banned list) and Vintage (6 grand for a Lotus says it all). Of all the formats, I'll take Legacy just the way it is. It's still better than anything else available right now.
Mishra's workshop is a firm no. So look at legacy now and see how bad it is due to cruise. Multiply that by 1,000 if you legalize workshop. Are you a fan of being completely locked out before you play a single card? I'm not same with virtually every other player on the planet. Turn 2 lodestone/sphere, turn 2 sphere, turn 3 tangle wire, eventually we'll draw a wincon and start hitting you with it but for the moment enjoy your 4 mana brainstorms, 7 mana JTMS's, and 8 mana ad nauseams. Not format warping because it isn't easily available? That is the stupidest reason I have ever seen in terms of why you should legalize a card. Yeah there aren't many workshops out there/it couldn't have a heavy presence. But look at the top 8/16 of events and you'll see a heavy number of workshop decks piloted by friends of people who own workshops or people who own workshops.
That delver v necro video is pretty bad when Randy Buehler is a terrible player with terrible decklist besides the 4 dark rit and 4 necro. Knight of stromgald is never going to match up against delver of secrets. Doesn't help when Buehler could contagion the turn 1 delver game 1 pitching that *****ty knight of stromgald but instead lets his opponent hit him with it, not strip mine when opponent is stuck on 2 lands and get necro mana leaked. The game should have been a landslide in Buehler's favor but he played it terribly/didn't get to resolve necro because of it. Here's an example of what necro would look like today and it would be disgustingly better than all the iterations of necro back then because the threats are vastly superior namely tendrils of agony being a wincon that synergizes with your engine.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
4 Unmask
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Powder
1 Past in Flames
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Badlands
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm
Ready to play against something disgusting like this? The best part about necro might be that you can't flusterstorm it because of its enchantment status/you have to flusterstorm actual dark ritual and that flusterstorm on the draw is pathetic. They have force of will or bust and if they don't well they're pretty ****ed over. Even if they do the best part is that you have 4 unmask to combat force of will or could potentially petal out duress on force then dark rit necro or dark rit LED tutor necro afterwards. The above list should never be possible in legacy and if you think it should I haven't the faintest idea as to what's going on in your head.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Wow, that's the same deck I put together except for the Unmask. Didn't think of them. Wow, that makes it even more stupid being able to rip their counters away from them.
Stupid, stupid deck that would essentially be the only thing you'd see in Legacy, as much as I would love to put this thing together just once. LOL
It should be around 11 AM EST on Monday when the site updates.