So, you cast TC twice in four rounds (and saw it cast once when, as you say, it sealed the game). Your report doesn't tell us anything about the efficiency of TC. Literally not a thing. Especially if you were inexperienced with the deck you played. You're doing yourself a disservice by presenting this report as an argument in the discussion about TC, because it looks like you're just using it as a background to present your own opinions.
Opinions? News flash. That's all ANY of this is. So all these claims that TC is busted and ban worthy are facts? That's news to me.
As for the deck. Stoneblade is a deck I've played many times BEFORE TC was a card. So the only real difference in the deck was TC itself. My point is this. Shoving 4 TC into the deck didn't suddenly turn me into a top 4 contender. I finished my usual 1-2-1 and didn't do any better with this deck than I did with Stoneblade before TC or any other deck I've played. TC doesn't turn you into a winning Magic player. It is not a magic wand. You still have to be a great player to win AND draw well. I had the most miserable luck yesterday, even drawing a TC at a time when drawing anything else other than a land would have given me a chance to win. TC turned out to be a dead card in my hand that I couldn't even pitch to a FoW because I didn't have one in my hand.
Point is, I saw no evidence that TC is busted.
Anecdotal you might say? Fair enough. But that's all the claims are in this thread that TC is busted and ban worthy. Anecdotal and/or opinion. My opinion is no less valid than anybody else's.
Again, none of this matters. None of it. The DCI will make their decision in January as to whether or not this card needs to be banned. I'd be stunned if it were.
If this combo happen at least 25% of the time - show and tell would had been banned!
Turn one BV on the play happens less than 25% of the time also (less than 20%, in fact), and is not nearly as strong as a turn one S&T in terms of the ability of opposing decks to answer it and/or play through it.
No card is a "Magic Wand". Lotus does not suddenly make you win a game if you play it, but that doesn't make it any less busted.
Lotus would push Storm to ridiculous power levels, as well as some other combo decks and MUD or Stax prison. That makes it busted. TC doesn't seem to push any archetype to ridiculous power levels. That is the bottom line here.
I could see any of these banned before TC gets banned. I would rather see any of these cards in my opening hand than a Treasure Cruise which is a dead card until turn 3 earliest and may end up getting me nothing more than more draw spells and/or land. One hand I had three of these in my hand that I could do nothing with. In fact, after my experience with this overrated and overhyped cards, I may cut down to 2 in the deck. Unlike all the cards I named above, which are good at any time, TC is conditional. You need cards in the graveyard. You can't cast it the first 2 turns of the game which, IMO, are the most critical in most games of Legacy because this format is so fast. If I'm going against storm, which by the way came in 3rd in the GP, I don't have to turn 3 to cast TC to maybe save me from losing. It's the last thing I want in my hand at that point. The card can ONLY be played in certain decks and has negative synergy with a number of cards including DRS, Goyf and even Nimble Mongoose, which kicked my butt royally yesterday. All the bolts and plows I had in my hand were useless against it and TC was less than useless as anything I would have drawn with it wouldn't have helped me anyway.
And when January comes and nothing changes I can sit here smiling again as I kept my head while everybody else was ranting and raving about yet another overrated (TNN) card.
If this combo happen at least 25% of the time - show and tell would had been banned!
Turn one BV on the play happens less than 25% of the time also (less than 20%, in fact), and is not nearly as strong as a turn one S&T in terms of the ability of opposing decks to answer it and/or play through it.
I'm not in control of the ban list, I could only assume why Black Vise is on the ban list. I personally dont think it's a safe card because it can fit in any deck, on the other hand I dont think wizards is lazy in pulling cards off the ban list. If they consider unbanning Black Vise they need to make sure the format will not make players want to ban the card in a month.
I do have a playset of black vise waiting for the unbanning (who knows - nothing is that protected. And just like Black Vise can get off the ban list, brainstorm can get on the ban list)
I would speculate that some cards on the banned list are being "saved" despite being safe. When Flash was banned, Mind Over Matter and Replenish were unbanned. When Mystical Tutor was banned, Grim Monolith and Illusionary Mask were unbanned. When Survival of the Fittest was banned, Time Spiral was unbanned. Wizards uses unbans to soften the blow of bans. Mental Misstep is the only recent card (obviously ignoring Conspiracy) to be banned without an unban at the same time, and people were actually celebrating that ban.
I'd like to take the TC discussion in another direction.
Those who insist that TC is broken, I'm assuming they mean broken for its casting cost and not simply because you can draw 3 cards because we do have other draw 3 spells in Legacy.
So, at what casting cost (still using Delve) would this card NOT be broken but still "playable" in Legacy?
The reason I ask this is because I contend that at a higher casting cost, even at just one more generic mana, this card would become unplayable. It couldn't be cast before turn 4 the earliest and not again until probably turn 8. As fast as this format can be, that is simply not playable and would not even be a spec on the radar. TC would be a 5 cent common and lost in obscurity. I doubt it would even see play in Standard or Modern.
Balancing cards like these is extremely difficult. I think WotC did a great job with this one. I don't think a turn 3 draw 3 spell is broken considering the hoops you have to jump through.
But I'm game. What would you have cost this spell at and still make it Legacy playable and then explain how it would be playable and still not broken.
Great, except all banned list discussion is supposed to take place HERE. So what does this card need to cost in order for it to not be ban worthy and still be playable instead of worthless jank?
It's not banned discussion, it's hyperthitcal CMC discussion.
So since when are we not allowed to speak about hypothetical situations in this thread? It goes on all the time as I can prove by countless posts of people asking "if X were banned instead of Y" and on and on. In fact, this whole thread is all hypothetical because nothing we think about the banned list matters in the least. We have ZERO control over what cards will and won't be banned simply by coming here and voicing our approval or disproval of a certain action.
But by all means, if you want to avoid the question that's fine. It's no skin off my nose.
So how do you like how the unbanning of Land Tax didn't do jack squat?
This thread will serve as a place for ALL ban list discussion for the Legacy forum. It will be the place to discuss cards you think should be unbanned and a place to discuss currently legal cards that you think deserve to be banned.
If you want to discuss a fair casting cost for Treasure Cruise, the link to the relevant thread is in an above post.
This thread will serve as a place for ALL ban list discussion for the Legacy forum. It will be the place to discuss cards you think should be unbanned and a place to discuss currently legal cards that you think deserve to be banned.
If you want to discuss a fair casting cost for Treasure Cruise, the link to the relevant thread is in an above post.
Okay, question. Am I allowed to bring up in that other thread how the "fair casting cost" relates to whether or not the card should still be banned depending on whether or not we can even agree on a fair casting cost that will leave the card still playable in Legacy?
I don't know if that's clear but if not, I'll try to rephrase the question.
I don't think there's any argument you can really make for Treasure Cruise to be banned that doesn't apply even more so in regards to Brainstorm.
It really seems like every argument someone offers for banning Treasure Cruise is really just an argument for banning Brainstorm.
Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you! It's nice to see I'm not the only one that see this
On the issue of black vise. If the game moves so fast that nobody is holding cards then should we talking about unbanning Library of Alexandria? I know some of you guys will think that's an insane call but I'm trying to figure if the damage of Black Vise is meaningless then I would assume the draws in Library would be difficult when your racing against a speedy opponent.
I don't think there's any argument you can really make for Treasure Cruise to be banned that doesn't apply even more so in regards to Brainstorm.
It really seems like every argument someone offers for banning Treasure Cruise is really just an argument for banning Brainstorm.
Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you! It's nice to see I'm not the only one that see this
On the issue of black vise. If the game moves so fast that nobody is holding cards then should we talking about unbanning Library of Alexandria? I know some of you guys will think that's an insane call but I'm trying to figure if the damage of Black Vise is meaningless then I would assume the draws in Library would be difficult when your racing against a speedy opponent.
Black Vise cares about your opponent's hand. Library cares about your own. That's the difference. If Library is unbanned, I get to build a deck that specifically wants a full grip. If Black Vise is unbanned, I have to rely on my opponents having a full grip...which...why would they do that for me? It's like when new players look at punisher cards. Giving the choice to an opponent makes it so much worse.
I do have a playset of black vise waiting for the unbanning (who knows - nothing is that protected. And just like Black Vise can get off the ban list, brainstorm can get on the ban list)
Why does everything you do seem to come back to Brainstorm?
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
You know, it's funny. When Brainstorm first came out in Ice Age, I was like meh. You had no fetches. You had no way of shuffling your library if the 3 cards on top were all lands or not what you needed. It was an okay card. Now, we're talking about it like it's the most busted card in Legacy or close to it.
You misunderstand. I was not suggesting banning or unbanning anything, only pointing out the flaw is stating any single card is a Magic Wand.
Just making sure!
That said, the later a card typically gets played, the more powerful it needs to be to warrent a ban. Any card on the banned list that can't be played before turn three (barring a lot of ramp) is a card which will pretty much win the game on the spot (in the decks that play it). I'm inclined to think that any card which gets played this late in the game is going to need to pretty much end the game then and there in order to be powerful enough to ban.
That said, the later a card typically gets played, the more powerful it needs to be to warrent a ban. Any card on the banned list that can't be played before turn three (barring a lot of ramp) is a card which will pretty much win the game on the spot (in the decks that play it). I'm inclined to think that any card which gets played this late in the game is going to need to pretty much end the game then and there in order to be powerful enough to ban.
So this thing is perfectly fine:
More Recent Recall U
Instant
You can't cast ~ during any player's first two turns.
Target player draws three cards.
No, it wouldn't. It could be cast on turns 3,4,5 and 6 for one blue whereas TC needs a graveyard full of cards and more often than not can't be cast any better than turns 3, 6, 9 and 12. There is no comparison between the two cards. The card you outlined above would never get printed whereas TC has enough hoops to have to jump through to make it more than fair.
That said, the later a card typically gets played, the more powerful it needs to be to warrent a ban. Any card on the banned list that can't be played before turn three (barring a lot of ramp) is a card which will pretty much win the game on the spot (in the decks that play it). I'm inclined to think that any card which gets played this late in the game is going to need to pretty much end the game then and there in order to be powerful enough to ban.
So this thing is perfectly fine:
More Recent Recall U
Instant
You can't cast ~ during any player's first two turns.
Target player draws three cards.
In certain decks, that would basically be the kill, or enabler of the kill. While SpiralTide doesn't run TC because of the aforementioned Spiral, it would love something like this, as a 4-of, as it's like a meditate except without any drawback.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Okay, question. Am I allowed to bring up in that other thread how the "fair casting cost" relates to whether or not the card should still be banned depending on whether or not we can even agree on a fair casting cost that will leave the card still playable in Legacy?
I don't know if that's clear but if not, I'll try to rephrase the question.
It would seem to me that determining a "fair" casting cost implies determining a casting cost for which one who feels it currently ban-worthy wouldn't feel it ban-worthy. So there's no reason to say "a more fair cost means it's not ban-worthy" because that's implicit to the subject.
Put another way, it would be silly to suggest "fair" casting costs that leave a card ban-worthy, so there's really no point raising the subject, especially since it threatens to derail that thread into a ban list discussion for the real cost and that's not a good place to be.
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Opinions? News flash. That's all ANY of this is. So all these claims that TC is busted and ban worthy are facts? That's news to me.
As for the deck. Stoneblade is a deck I've played many times BEFORE TC was a card. So the only real difference in the deck was TC itself. My point is this. Shoving 4 TC into the deck didn't suddenly turn me into a top 4 contender. I finished my usual 1-2-1 and didn't do any better with this deck than I did with Stoneblade before TC or any other deck I've played. TC doesn't turn you into a winning Magic player. It is not a magic wand. You still have to be a great player to win AND draw well. I had the most miserable luck yesterday, even drawing a TC at a time when drawing anything else other than a land would have given me a chance to win. TC turned out to be a dead card in my hand that I couldn't even pitch to a FoW because I didn't have one in my hand.
Point is, I saw no evidence that TC is busted.
Anecdotal you might say? Fair enough. But that's all the claims are in this thread that TC is busted and ban worthy. Anecdotal and/or opinion. My opinion is no less valid than anybody else's.
Again, none of this matters. None of it. The DCI will make their decision in January as to whether or not this card needs to be banned. I'd be stunned if it were.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Turn one BV on the play happens less than 25% of the time also (less than 20%, in fact), and is not nearly as strong as a turn one S&T in terms of the ability of opposing decks to answer it and/or play through it.
Lotus would push Storm to ridiculous power levels, as well as some other combo decks and MUD or Stax prison. That makes it busted. TC doesn't seem to push any archetype to ridiculous power levels. That is the bottom line here.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I mean, cards like Battle of Wits win you the game, but that doesn't mean you so not have to jump though hoops to play them.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
No, but some cards are clearly more powerful than others and TC isn't even in the top 5 of most powerful cards in Legacy based on what I've seen.
My top 5?
1) Brainstorm
2) Fetch Lands
3) Delver of Secrets
4) Stoneforge Mystic
5) Deathrite Shaman
I could see any of these banned before TC gets banned. I would rather see any of these cards in my opening hand than a Treasure Cruise which is a dead card until turn 3 earliest and may end up getting me nothing more than more draw spells and/or land. One hand I had three of these in my hand that I could do nothing with. In fact, after my experience with this overrated and overhyped cards, I may cut down to 2 in the deck. Unlike all the cards I named above, which are good at any time, TC is conditional. You need cards in the graveyard. You can't cast it the first 2 turns of the game which, IMO, are the most critical in most games of Legacy because this format is so fast. If I'm going against storm, which by the way came in 3rd in the GP, I don't have to turn 3 to cast TC to maybe save me from losing. It's the last thing I want in my hand at that point. The card can ONLY be played in certain decks and has negative synergy with a number of cards including DRS, Goyf and even Nimble Mongoose, which kicked my butt royally yesterday. All the bolts and plows I had in my hand were useless against it and TC was less than useless as anything I would have drawn with it wouldn't have helped me anyway.
And when January comes and nothing changes I can sit here smiling again as I kept my head while everybody else was ranting and raving about yet another overrated (TNN) card.
I'm not in control of the ban list, I could only assume why Black Vise is on the ban list. I personally dont think it's a safe card because it can fit in any deck, on the other hand I dont think wizards is lazy in pulling cards off the ban list. If they consider unbanning Black Vise they need to make sure the format will not make players want to ban the card in a month.
I do have a playset of black vise waiting for the unbanning (who knows - nothing is that protected. And just like Black Vise can get off the ban list, brainstorm can get on the ban list)
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Those who insist that TC is broken, I'm assuming they mean broken for its casting cost and not simply because you can draw 3 cards because we do have other draw 3 spells in Legacy.
So, at what casting cost (still using Delve) would this card NOT be broken but still "playable" in Legacy?
The reason I ask this is because I contend that at a higher casting cost, even at just one more generic mana, this card would become unplayable. It couldn't be cast before turn 4 the earliest and not again until probably turn 8. As fast as this format can be, that is simply not playable and would not even be a spec on the radar. TC would be a 5 cent common and lost in obscurity. I doubt it would even see play in Standard or Modern.
Balancing cards like these is extremely difficult. I think WotC did a great job with this one. I don't think a turn 3 draw 3 spell is broken considering the hoops you have to jump through.
But I'm game. What would you have cost this spell at and still make it Legacy playable and then explain how it would be playable and still not broken.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Great, except all banned list discussion is supposed to take place HERE. So what does this card need to cost in order for it to not be ban worthy and still be playable instead of worthless jank?
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
So since when are we not allowed to speak about hypothetical situations in this thread? It goes on all the time as I can prove by countless posts of people asking "if X were banned instead of Y" and on and on. In fact, this whole thread is all hypothetical because nothing we think about the banned list matters in the least. We have ZERO control over what cards will and won't be banned simply by coming here and voicing our approval or disproval of a certain action.
But by all means, if you want to avoid the question that's fine. It's no skin off my nose.
So how do you like how the unbanning of Land Tax didn't do jack squat?
If you want to discuss a fair casting cost for Treasure Cruise, the link to the relevant thread is in an above post.
Okay, question. Am I allowed to bring up in that other thread how the "fair casting cost" relates to whether or not the card should still be banned depending on whether or not we can even agree on a fair casting cost that will leave the card still playable in Legacy?
I don't know if that's clear but if not, I'll try to rephrase the question.
It really seems like every argument someone offers for banning Treasure Cruise is really just an argument for banning Brainstorm.
Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you! It's nice to see I'm not the only one that see this
On the issue of black vise. If the game moves so fast that nobody is holding cards then should we talking about unbanning Library of Alexandria? I know some of you guys will think that's an insane call but I'm trying to figure if the damage of Black Vise is meaningless then I would assume the draws in Library would be difficult when your racing against a speedy opponent.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
well, the joke of "you choose to play, so you are not playing manaless dredge" is no longer valid:gaping:
everyone will be running 4 library and chosing to play second or something crazy like that.
draw 2 cards per turn? yep, pretty insane.
Why does everything you do seem to come back to Brainstorm?
That's because Soldier's one of the only persistent ones, and he works Brainstorm into almost every comment he makes.
Oh how this game has changed.
Just making sure!
That said, the later a card typically gets played, the more powerful it needs to be to warrent a ban. Any card on the banned list that can't be played before turn three (barring a lot of ramp) is a card which will pretty much win the game on the spot (in the decks that play it). I'm inclined to think that any card which gets played this late in the game is going to need to pretty much end the game then and there in order to be powerful enough to ban.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
No, it wouldn't. It could be cast on turns 3,4,5 and 6 for one blue whereas TC needs a graveyard full of cards and more often than not can't be cast any better than turns 3, 6, 9 and 12. There is no comparison between the two cards. The card you outlined above would never get printed whereas TC has enough hoops to have to jump through to make it more than fair.
I think that card in a Storm or High Tide deck would usually be enough to end the game.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
In certain decks, that would basically be the kill, or enabler of the kill. While SpiralTide doesn't run TC because of the aforementioned Spiral, it would love something like this, as a 4-of, as it's like a meditate except without any drawback.
It would seem to me that determining a "fair" casting cost implies determining a casting cost for which one who feels it currently ban-worthy wouldn't feel it ban-worthy. So there's no reason to say "a more fair cost means it's not ban-worthy" because that's implicit to the subject.
Put another way, it would be silly to suggest "fair" casting costs that leave a card ban-worthy, so there's really no point raising the subject, especially since it threatens to derail that thread into a ban list discussion for the real cost and that's not a good place to be.