But until then, brainstorm is the ban bar and we shouldnt be talking about banning any other card (unless that card does better then brainstorm)
This is really oversimplistic. There are cards currently on the banned list that are weaker than legal cards. Sometimes it's a holdover, but sometimes it appears to be about meta sculpting. Point being, the DCI doesn't choose a specific "power level bar" and ban everything above it.
I guess I dont really have a counter-argument because my only argument point for TC... I believe the card NEEDS to be better then brainstorm for it to be banned and I dont see any evidence pointing that TC is better then brainstorm.
Cards arten't banned for being too good. They are banned for pushing an archetype to the point that it is oppressive.
The issue I dont get... those that are asking to ban TC are the same people saying that Brainstorm is not bannable. I still don't get it.
It makes a lot more sense if you can look at this format in terms of its archetypes rather than its cardpool. Try to imagine a person who feels that Delver/Tempo decks (post TC) have become too powerful and need to be reigned in, but at the same time feelsl Storm, S&T, Stoneblade, Miracles, Infect (and other more fringy decks) are not OP and do not need to be taken down an notch.
Why would such a person want a Brainstorm ban? If all they want is to restore Tempo decks to their pre-TC power level, a TC ban makes perfect sense but a BS ban makes zero sense.
Add extra mana once? Okay you got me. Great job nitpicking and making typos all around your post.
One shot mana vs permanent mana is nitpicking? So If I say Elvish Spirit Guide is less powerful than Mox Emerald, that would be nit-picking too?
Typos have nothing to do with the argument at hand - just an ad-hominem and a distraction.
Seriously, if TC is so busted and overpowered, how come you are incappable of conveying that without exaggeration? If the card is truly as oppressive as you seem to think, surely you don't need to over-state it's power to get your point across?
I guess I dont really have a counter-argument because my only argument point for TC... I believe the card NEEDS to be better then brainstorm for it to be banned and I dont see any evidence pointing that TC is better then brainstorm.
Cards arten't banned for being too good. They are banned for pushing an archetype to the point that it is oppressive.
The issue I dont get... those that are asking to ban TC are the same people saying that Brainstorm is not bannable. I still don't get it.
It makes a lot more sense if you can look at this format in terms of its archetypes rather than its cardpool. Try to imagine a person who feels that Delver/Tempo decks (post TC) have become too powerful and need to be reigned in, but at the same time feelsl Storm, S&T, Stoneblade, Miracles, Infect (and other more fringy decks) are not OP and do not need to be taken down an notch.
Why would such a person want a Brainstorm ban? If all they want is to restore Tempo decks to their pre-TC power level, a TC ban makes perfect sense but a BS ban makes zero sense.
Add extra mana once? Okay you got me. Great job nitpicking and making typos all around your post.
One shot mana vs permanent mana is nitpicking? So If I say Elvish Spirit Guide is less powerful than Mox Emerald, that would be nit-picking too?
Typos have nothing to do with the argument at hand - just an ad-hominem and a distraction.
Seriously, if TC is so busted and overpowered, how come you are incappable of conveying that without exaggeration? If the card is truly as oppressive as you seem to think, surely you don't need to over-state it's power to get your point across?
I plan on bringing the winning deck from GP NJ to a Legacy event on Saturday. I usually don't do too well at these so we'll see if this makes a difference. I've played enough stoneblade in the past that learning this version shouldn't be a problem. And if it's really so busted as Bread says, I should have a fantastic day.
In play testing, it's very consistent and very efficient. I won't even try to claim that it's not a great deck. But broken? Oppressive? I need to see for myself and even then as its anecdotal evidence it doesn't really mean much. But given my usual record on any given day, a great showing does say something.
Eight different archetypes. Ten Treasure Cruises out of a possible thirty-two. U/R Delver constituted 20% of the field (come day two), but only made 12.5% of the top eight. That means a rather poor show for that archetype overall.
I remain unconvinced as to the alleged brokeness of Treasure Cruise.
Eight different archetypes. Ten Treasure Cruises out of a possible thirty-two. U/R Delver constituted 20% of the field (come day two), but only made 12.5% of the top eight. That means a rather poor show for that archetype overall.
I remain unconvinced as to the alleged brokeness of Treasure Cruise.
2 through 6 absolutely stunned the hell out of me. If Vegas was giving odds on that top 8 and you were insanely lucky enough to call it, you'd probably be a multi billionaire right now. I don't think anybody saw that top 8 coming. Especially not with all the talk of UR Delver being the "deck to beat"
BS is a good thing, its existence is helpful to the format.
you say this like an axiom/holy truth, there is NO evidence (in either way) that BS is good or bad for the format.
please someone make that
I'm more playing off of people talking about all the things BS does, about it pushing delver to where it is, pushing miracles, etc. If it does those things, then it is fantastic.
Please look at the history of Legacy bannings, including the original list. Know what you'll never see legal in Legacy? A generic tutor effect. That's why Imperial Seal was immediately added to the banned list as soon as Portal Three Kingdoms was made Legacy legal.
Speaking of tutors, I really wish Dig Through Time would have been a black card, as it is essentially a double tutor. That would have made things much more interesting in my opinion.
No, it really isn't. Can we please stop doing this? TC isn't AC, and DTT isn't a double tutor for 2.
Fetchlands right now are sol lands. That's absurd. Sol lands are 'fair' because they don't tap for colors and have drawbacks.
Sol lands also provide an extra mana every single turn you tap them! Not one extra mana once, later in the game, if you have a specific spell to cast. (f anything is absurd here, it's your ridiculpus hyperbole! If you can't critises this card without gross exaggeration, maybe you don't actually ahve any valid criticism?
my money on january: no bans (some unbans, like mind twist).
BUT wizards is aware of the brainstorm problem (IT IS brainstorm the problem, stop pretending is a god or his prophet, its just a card) and we will see meta printed in Fate reforged or dragons of tarkir.
I don't see a brainstorm problem, nor a problem which could be even tangentially related to BS.
The issue I dont get... those that are asking to ban TC are the same people saying that Brainstorm is not bannable. I still don't get it.
It makes a lot more sense if you can look at this format in terms of its archetypes rather than its cardpool. Try to imagine a person who feels that Delver/Tempo decks (post TC) have become too powerful and need to be reigned in, but at the same time feelsl Storm, S&T, Stoneblade, Miracles, Infect (and other more fringy decks) are not OP and do not need to be taken down an notch.
But that's not what they're talking about, they're just going on about color and land distribution.
2 through 6 absolutely stunned the hell out of me. If Vegas was giving odds on that top 8 and you were insanely lucky enough to call it, you'd probably be a multi billionaire right now. I don't think anybody saw that top 8 coming. Especially not with all the talk of UR Delver being the "deck to beat"
Infect, as piloted by Tom Ross, has been doing fabulously for a little while now.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Eight different archetypes. Ten Treasure Cruises out of a possible thirty-two. U/R Delver constituted 20% of the field (come day two), but only made 12.5% of the top eight. That means a rather poor show for that archetype overall.
I remain unconvinced as to the alleged brokeness of Treasure Cruise.
2 through 6 absolutely stunned the hell out of me. If Vegas was giving odds on that top 8 and you were insanely lucky enough to call it, you'd probably be a multi billionaire right now. I don't think anybody saw that top 8 coming. Especially not with all the talk of UR Delver being the "deck to beat"
It isn't very surprising at all. Tom Ross is always winning with infect. That's a weird one, you don't really see other people putting up the same results. The Storm player is Royce Walter who is really good at storm. Miracles isn't even stunning to see in the top because its really good (no secret there), but the fact that Philipp Schonegger was piloting it helps a ton. The Landstill player was Lam Phan who is amazing at Legacy. I think he basically created Delver.dec before Delver of Secrets existed (early designer of Canadian Thresh). The only surprising top deck was MUD. Chalice is good, but I'm surprised it made it through all of those rounds.
Fetchlands are sol lands with cruise because they place a card in the graveyard and fetch a land that taps for a mana. Imagine this card hypothetically:
Scalding River
Land - Island Mountain (T: Add U or R to your mana pool)
T: Add 1U or 1R to your mana pool. This ability can be used just once and only for spells with delve.
If the above card is fair please explain why.
I seem to be exaggerating but, sadly, am not in regards to how good cruise is. Has anyone played with the card in this thread? Pretty nice to brainstorm without having to put cards back at the steep cost of exiling 7 cards in your graveyard. Or if you're so unlucky you have to pay 1U because 1U: Draw 3 at sorcery speed is a fair card. Even at 3 mana cruise is still a pretty insane magic card when you tack one more card onto divination or don't have to discard to compulsive research/thirst for knowledge. I started thinking out you had to delve the full amount at first too but the answer is that you really don't and the card is still nutters. Ditto with dig through time. Dig at 4 mana is comparable to gifts ungiven and fact or fiction but still probably better than both. At 3 it's definitely better. I'd likely take 5 mana dig over 4 mana fact although that isn't ideal naturally.
Black vise is banned because WotC are too lazy to type the words "Legacy - Black vise is no longer banned." I'm pretty sure that's the cause as it's inferior to delver of secrets and would likely be stone unplayable in legacy. I guess you can trinket mage or artificer's intuition it up but that seems hilariously bad.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Black vise is banned because WotC are too lazy to type the words "Legacy - Black vise is no longer banned." I'm pretty sure that's the cause as it's inferior to delver of secrets and would likely be stone unplayable in legacy. I guess you can trinket mage or artificer's intuition it up but that seems hilariously bad.
This goes back to my original argument that DCI should give the players a yearly report on why such and such is banned.
Im going to suspect 2 reasons why black vise is still banned.
First ... What ever was said about mental misstep could apply to black vise. Why would nobody play this card? It cost 1 mana and it deals damage each turn. All you need to do is sinkhole a land, waste another land, play something that adds to the spell cost, you could drop multiples in play on the first turn. I personally never get why those that supported the banning of Mental Misstep would think Black Vise is a safe card.
Second (which I'm starting to believe the reason why) Legacy only seems speedy because of brainstorm and a few non-blue low mana drop decks that compete well against brainstorm decks. If brainstorm is banned, I doubt players would be asking why Black Vise still banned.
Regardless what burn players say about black vise, I know I'll be packing 4 black vise in my deck in a snap and it wont be pretty sitting next to Eidolon of the Great Revel.
PS... The only time Black Vise seemed like a safe card was when Mental Misstep was legal.
First ... What ever was said about mental misstep could apply to black vise. Why would nobody play this card? It cost 1 mana and it deals damage each turn. All you need to do is sinkhole a land, waste another land, play something that adds to the spell cost, you could drop multiples in play on the first turn.
You're talking about a relatively narrow section of decks. There's no doubt it could be 4 or 5 damage for 1 mana in some cases, but it's a hell of a lot worse on the draw and is also dead useless against a lot of decks, making a worse topdeck than a Lava Spike in many situations. It can be explosive, but it's really not any more dangerous than numerous unbanned cards in the same decks. It'd be powerful, but probably only sideboard material. It certainly wouldn't live up to its old nickname of Three Free Bolts given how many decks can either counter it or empty their hand fast enough that it doesn't matter. Or just combo-kill you through it.
Scalding River
Land - Island Mountain (T: Add U or R to your mana pool)
T: Add 1U or 1R to your mana pool. This ability can be used just once and only for spells with delve.
If the above card is fair please explain why.
Clearly that's a good card - strictly better than Volcanic Island. 'Fair' is a bit of a loaded term. Is the card OP? I guess it depends on whether or not it pushes an archetype or playstyle to the point of oppressive dominace. I'm not seeing that with Cruise + Fetches.
Of course your card is maybe a little over the top because you can fetch for it and get two extra mana (once) for a delve spell! But I believe that was an honest mistake, rather than another attempt to overstate power.
Regarding Black Vise, I've been a propnent of an unban for a while now. More linear aggro would increase diversity and improve the meta, IMO. I can't see it being oppressive - it's too inconsistent. The best home for it is probably affinity, which always has at least some use for a 1cc artifact.
Right now we've got a couple new cards from Commander which might make a splash, so now is more of a time to watch the meta evolve, and eventually settle (heck, the meta is still adjusting to TC).
I don't think anybody saw that top 8 coming. Especially not with all the talk of UR Delver being the "deck to beat"
U/R Delver didn't perform very well. It's seen as the deck to beat because it top eights a lot, which is proportional to it being played so very much. If U/R Delver had been 10% of the meta instead of 20%, would it have even placed?
Black vise is banned because WotC are too lazy to type the words "Legacy - Black vise is no longer banned." I'm pretty sure that's the cause as it's inferior to delver of secrets and would likely be stone unplayable in legacy. I guess you can trinket mage or artificer's intuition it up but that seems hilariously bad.
This goes back to my original argument that DCI should give the players a yearly report on why such and such is banned.
Im going to suspect 2 reasons why black vise is still banned.
First ... What ever was said about mental misstep could apply to black vise. Why would nobody play this card? It cost 1 mana and it deals damage each turn. All you need to do is sinkhole a land, waste another land, play something that adds to the spell cost, you could drop multiples in play on the first turn. I personally never get why those that supported the banning of Mental Misstep would think Black Vise is a safe card.
...you know what else wins from that spot? Pretty much any first turn source of damage. It could have been a Carnophage...or a Memnite. Just Sinkhole one land, Waste another, drop a sphere effect, and play multiple Black Vises (all while your opponent is doing nothing). So trivial.
Second (which I'm starting to believe the reason why) Legacy only seems speedy because of brainstorm and a few non-blue low mana drop decks that compete well against brainstorm decks. If brainstorm is banned, I doubt players would be asking why Black Vise still banned.
Regardless what burn players say about black vise, I know I'll be packing 4 black vise in my deck in a snap and it wont be pretty sitting next to Eidolon of the Great Revel.
PS... The only time Black Vise seemed like a safe card was when Mental Misstep was legal.
I don't even know if this is true. Regardless of whether or not it is, the fact is that Brainstorm isn't banned, so what does that have to do with Vise's current legality?
So I'm imagining the sinkhole wasteland sphere of resistance black vise deck and am not the least bit afraid of playing against it. Sinkhole you? Daze it bouncing said land. Abrupt decay on anything seems backbreaking. As for not playing eidolon of the great revel in burn please don't sling the card that gives you a shot against storm combo game 1 and will likely deal way more damage than black vise in a game of legacy as shocking an opponent each time they cast any spell pretty much adds up much faster than vise dealing damage especially when spells played into black vise actively hinder vise dealing damage. I'd run shard volley before black vise in burn and shard volley isn't playable in legacy. Have fun topdecking turn 4 black vise or even playing it on turn 2 is pretty abysmal. Cases where black vise are worth its weight? You're on the play and you drop it turn 1. I can't think of any other scenario where the card is at all good.
Yeah the add 2 extra mana being fetchable was a mistake, which does make it better. A card doesn't need to be oppressive to be an overpowered card. Here's looking at fixed lotus, show and tell, and griselbrand. I would bet money that if griselbrand wasn't legendary it would already be banned in legacy because the answers to it are virtually nonexistent then.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Cases where black vise are worth its weight? You're on the play and you drop it turn 1. I can't think of any other scenario where the card is at all good.
Yep. In a red based affinity deck thye card is at least not dead weight later in the game - it pumps Cranial Plating, Tezz's ultimate, and MoE, plus it sacs to Ravager or Shrapnel Blast. NOt quite worth its weight (any 1cc artifact is as good), but in conjunction with the occassional trun one drops on the play, I thihnk it would overall be worth running.
Affinity is easilly hated out, so I can't see it ever becoming oppressive in Legacy. If we can get Vise for Affinity, Earthcraft for Enchantress, and Frantic Search for High Tide, that would be a glorious day!
Fetchlands are sol lands with cruise because they place a card in the graveyard and fetch a land that taps for a mana. Imagine this card hypothetically:
Scalding River
Land - Island Mountain (T: Add U or R to your mana pool)
T: Add 1U or 1R to your mana pool. This ability can be used just once and only for spells with delve.
If the above card is fair please explain why.
Ah, now I see it. This card would be good, but wouldn't break legacy, a format designed to handle most of the best cards in existence.
you lose me when you start going on about the power of TC, when it doesn't seem to be breaking the format.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
First ... What ever was said about mental misstep could apply to black vise. Why would nobody play this card? It cost 1 mana and it deals damage each turn. All you need to do is sinkhole a land, waste another land, play something that adds to the spell cost, you could drop multiples in play on the first turn.
You're talking about a relatively narrow section of decks. There's no doubt it could be 4 or 5 damage for 1 mana in some cases, but it's a hell of a lot worse on the draw and is also dead useless against a lot of decks, making a worse topdeck than a Lava Spike in many situations. It can be explosive, but it's really not any more dangerous than numerous unbanned cards in the same decks. It'd be powerful, but probably only sideboard material. It certainly wouldn't live up to its old nickname of Three Free Bolts given how many decks can either counter it or empty their hand fast enough that it doesn't matter. Or just combo-kill you through it.
How is this safe? turn 1 (3 damage), turn 2 (2 damage), turn 3 (1 damage) [That's one card.]
lets try it with spells. Turn 1 (black vise - 3 damage). Turn 2 (Goblin guide attack/opponent draws land. play chain - +5 damage, +3 damage [black vise]... [11 damage total], turn 3 attack with goblin guide, bolt and fireblast!
Do you really think that would be healthy for legacy?
First ... What ever was said about mental misstep could apply to black vise. Why would nobody play this card? It cost 1 mana and it deals damage each turn. All you need to do is sinkhole a land, waste another land, play something that adds to the spell cost, you could drop multiples in play on the first turn.
You're talking about a relatively narrow section of decks. There's no doubt it could be 4 or 5 damage for 1 mana in some cases, but it's a hell of a lot worse on the draw and is also dead useless against a lot of decks, making a worse topdeck than a Lava Spike in many situations. It can be explosive, but it's really not any more dangerous than numerous unbanned cards in the same decks. It'd be powerful, but probably only sideboard material. It certainly wouldn't live up to its old nickname of Three Free Bolts given how many decks can either counter it or empty their hand fast enough that it doesn't matter. Or just combo-kill you through it.
How is this safe? turn 1 (3 damage), turn 2 (2 damage), turn 3 (1 damage) [That's one card.]
lets try it with spells. Turn 1 (black vise - 3 damage). Turn 2 (Goblin guide attack/opponent draws land. play chain - +5 damage, +3 damage [black vise]... [11 damage total], turn 3 attack with goblin guide, bolt and fireblast!
Do you really think that would be healthy for legacy?
No worse than turn 1 Lotus Petal + Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Emrakul, game.
Sure, we can all live in Magical Christmas Land if we like.
I'm not saying BV should come off the banned list. But I don't think it's the boogieman it once was before this format really became close to broken.
First ... What ever was said about mental misstep could apply to black vise. Why would nobody play this card? It cost 1 mana and it deals damage each turn. All you need to do is sinkhole a land, waste another land, play something that adds to the spell cost, you could drop multiples in play on the first turn.
You're talking about a relatively narrow section of decks. There's no doubt it could be 4 or 5 damage for 1 mana in some cases, but it's a hell of a lot worse on the draw and is also dead useless against a lot of decks, making a worse topdeck than a Lava Spike in many situations. It can be explosive, but it's really not any more dangerous than numerous unbanned cards in the same decks. It'd be powerful, but probably only sideboard material. It certainly wouldn't live up to its old nickname of Three Free Bolts given how many decks can either counter it or empty their hand fast enough that it doesn't matter. Or just combo-kill you through it.
How is this safe? turn 1 (3 damage), turn 2 (2 damage), turn 3 (1 damage) [That's one card.]
lets try it with spells. Turn 1 (black vise - 3 damage). Turn 2 (Goblin guide attack/opponent draws land. play chain - +5 damage, +3 damage [black vise]... [11 damage total], turn 3 attack with goblin guide, bolt and fireblast!
Do you really think that would be healthy for legacy?
Turn one combo decks like storm would like a word with you.
There are also decks that can race much faster and with more consistency.
First ... What ever was said about mental misstep could apply to black vise. Why would nobody play this card? It cost 1 mana and it deals damage each turn. All you need to do is sinkhole a land, waste another land, play something that adds to the spell cost, you could drop multiples in play on the first turn.
You're talking about a relatively narrow section of decks. There's no doubt it could be 4 or 5 damage for 1 mana in some cases, but it's a hell of a lot worse on the draw and is also dead useless against a lot of decks, making a worse topdeck than a Lava Spike in many situations. It can be explosive, but it's really not any more dangerous than numerous unbanned cards in the same decks. It'd be powerful, but probably only sideboard material. It certainly wouldn't live up to its old nickname of Three Free Bolts given how many decks can either counter it or empty their hand fast enough that it doesn't matter. Or just combo-kill you through it.
How is this safe? turn 1 (3 damage), turn 2 (2 damage), turn 3 (1 damage) [That's one card.]
lets try it with spells. Turn 1 (black vise - 3 damage). Turn 2 (Goblin guide attack/opponent draws land. play chain - +5 damage, +3 damage [black vise]... [11 damage total], turn 3 attack with goblin guide, bolt and fireblast!
Do you really think that would be healthy for legacy?
Burn is already capable of winning on turn 3. Numerous other decks are capable of winning turns 1-3.
This is nothing new to Legacy at all.
First ... What ever was said about mental misstep could apply to black vise. Why would nobody play this card? It cost 1 mana and it deals damage each turn. All you need to do is sinkhole a land, waste another land, play something that adds to the spell cost, you could drop multiples in play on the first turn.
You're talking about a relatively narrow section of decks. There's no doubt it could be 4 or 5 damage for 1 mana in some cases, but it's a hell of a lot worse on the draw and is also dead useless against a lot of decks, making a worse topdeck than a Lava Spike in many situations. It can be explosive, but it's really not any more dangerous than numerous unbanned cards in the same decks. It'd be powerful, but probably only sideboard material. It certainly wouldn't live up to its old nickname of Three Free Bolts given how many decks can either counter it or empty their hand fast enough that it doesn't matter. Or just combo-kill you through it.
How is this safe? turn 1 (3 damage), turn 2 (2 damage), turn 3 (1 damage) [That's one card.]
lets try it with spells. Turn 1 (black vise - 3 damage). Turn 2 (Goblin guide attack/opponent draws land. play chain - +5 damage, +3 damage [black vise]... [11 damage total], turn 3 attack with goblin guide, bolt and fireblast!
Do you really think that would be healthy for legacy?
No worse than turn 1 Lotus Petal + Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Emrakul, game.
Sure, we can all live in Magical Christmas Land if we like.
I'm not saying BV should come off the banned list. But I don't think it's the boogieman it once was before this format really became close to broken.
If this combo happen at least 25% of the time - show and tell would had been banned! What you shown is a god's hand combo. There is nothing magical from my example, I only showing how effective black vise can be in a burn deck.
@Soulbanana I dont think control will survival against black vise and yes - there are going to be more first turn combo decks.
If this combo happen at least 25% of the time - show and tell would had been banned! What you shown is a god's hand combo. There is nothing magical from my example, I only showing how effective black vise can be in a burn deck.
No, you're bringing up magical christmas land hands, they're meaningless. A situation wherein the burn player gets a perfect hand, and the other player does absolutely nothing doesn't really show the power of BV.
@Soulbanana I dont think control will survival against black vise and yes - there are going to be more first turn combo decks.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Well, I said I would report back about Treasure Cruise after my play today. I won't go into great detail. Just point out when it was cast, what effect it had and how the match went. I played BBD's winning deck from GP NJ.
Round 1 vs Burn (2-0)
Very easy match against a very bad opponent. Cast 1 TC in game 1 and by that time it didn't even matter.
Round 2 vs Reanimator (1-1-1)
Very strange match. Should have won game 3 but he reanimated the True Name that was in my grave yard (he countered it earlier in a counter war) and I couldn't get past it with my Batterskull. Containment Priest kept him from doing anything from that point on (was cast after he reanimated) but the only way I was going to break through was by drawing a 2nd TNN and equipping it.
TC was big in this game but not big enough to win it. Just keep me from losing.
Round 3 vs RUG Delver (0-2)
Got mana screwed both games. Couldn't deal with his Mongoose. Sideboarding in Pyroclasm game 2 I never saw them as well as no land. Counters stalled a while but eventually I lost to a Threshold Mongoose and Delver.
Round 4 vs UR Delver (0-2)
Game 1 was a counter war, both of us going down to a couple of cards. With a clear board, he TC's and I have no answer and that was the game. I couldn't catch up. Game 2 I had to mull down to 5 with no lands at 7 and 6 cards. Didn't see a blue fetch land after drawing plains and 3 straight Tundras. Had bolt in hand but couldn't cast it when he cast SFM and I had no counters. And that was game.
So all in all, I finished with 4 points which is how I usually finish regardless of what I play. This deck made no significant difference. I cast 2 TC's all day and only 1 mattered.
The card is good. It is far from busted. In fact, it is far from the best card in Legacy. In fact, one game, had I drawn anything BUT TC, I might have had a chance. But there I was with a card that I could do nothing with.
IMO, the deck has too many spells that do nothing BUT draw cards. Not enough real gas.
Anyway, I'm convinced now beyond any doubt that TC will not be banned come January.
Well, I said I would report back about Treasure Cruise after my play today. I won't go into great detail. Just point out when it was cast, what effect it had and how the match went. I played BBD's winning deck from GP NJ.
Round 1 vs Burn (2-0)
Very easy match against a very bad opponent. Cast 1 TC in game 1 and by that time it didn't even matter.
Round 2 vs Reanimator (1-1-1)
Very strange match. Should have won game 3 but he reanimated the True Name that was in my grave yard (he countered it earlier in a counter war) and I couldn't get past it with my Batterskull. Containment Priest kept him from doing anything from that point on (was cast after he reanimated) but the only way I was going to break through was by drawing a 2nd TNN and equipping it.
TC was big in this game but not big enough to win it. Just keep me from losing.
Round 3 vs RUG Delver (0-2)
Got mana screwed both games. Couldn't deal with his Mongoose. Sideboarding in Pyroclasm game 2 I never saw them as well as no land. Counters stalled a while but eventually I lost to a Threshold Mongoose and Delver.
Round 4 vs UR Delver (0-2)
Game 1 was a counter war, both of us going down to a couple of cards. With a clear board, he TC's and I have no answer and that was the game. I couldn't catch up. Game 2 I had to mull down to 5 with no lands at 7 and 6 cards. Didn't see a blue fetch land after drawing plains and 3 straight Tundras. Had bolt in hand but couldn't cast it when he cast SFM and I had no counters. And that was game.
So all in all, I finished with 4 points which is how I usually finish regardless of what I play. This deck made no significant difference. I cast 2 TC's all day and only 1 mattered.
The card is good. It is far from busted. In fact, it is far from the best card in Legacy. In fact, one game, had I drawn anything BUT TC, I might have had a chance. But there I was with a card that I could do nothing with.
IMO, the deck has too many spells that do nothing BUT draw cards. Not enough real gas.
Anyway, I'm convinced now beyond any doubt that TC will not be banned come January.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Cards arten't banned for being too good. They are banned for pushing an archetype to the point that it is oppressive.
It makes a lot more sense if you can look at this format in terms of its archetypes rather than its cardpool. Try to imagine a person who feels that Delver/Tempo decks (post TC) have become too powerful and need to be reigned in, but at the same time feelsl Storm, S&T, Stoneblade, Miracles, Infect (and other more fringy decks) are not OP and do not need to be taken down an notch.
Why would such a person want a Brainstorm ban? If all they want is to restore Tempo decks to their pre-TC power level, a TC ban makes perfect sense but a BS ban makes zero sense.
One shot mana vs permanent mana is nitpicking? So If I say Elvish Spirit Guide is less powerful than Mox Emerald, that would be nit-picking too?
Typos have nothing to do with the argument at hand - just an ad-hominem and a distraction.
Seriously, if TC is so busted and overpowered, how come you are incappable of conveying that without exaggeration? If the card is truly as oppressive as you seem to think, surely you don't need to over-state it's power to get your point across?
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I plan on bringing the winning deck from GP NJ to a Legacy event on Saturday. I usually don't do too well at these so we'll see if this makes a difference. I've played enough stoneblade in the past that learning this version shouldn't be a problem. And if it's really so busted as Bread says, I should have a fantastic day.
In play testing, it's very consistent and very efficient. I won't even try to claim that it's not a great deck. But broken? Oppressive? I need to see for myself and even then as its anecdotal evidence it doesn't really mean much. But given my usual record on any given day, a great showing does say something.
I'll report back on Saturday night.
Eight different archetypes. Ten Treasure Cruises out of a possible thirty-two. U/R Delver constituted 20% of the field (come day two), but only made 12.5% of the top eight. That means a rather poor show for that archetype overall.
I remain unconvinced as to the alleged brokeness of Treasure Cruise.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
2 through 6 absolutely stunned the hell out of me. If Vegas was giving odds on that top 8 and you were insanely lucky enough to call it, you'd probably be a multi billionaire right now. I don't think anybody saw that top 8 coming. Especially not with all the talk of UR Delver being the "deck to beat"
I'm more playing off of people talking about all the things BS does, about it pushing delver to where it is, pushing miracles, etc. If it does those things, then it is fantastic.
No, it really isn't. Can we please stop doing this? TC isn't AC, and DTT isn't a double tutor for 2.
I still don't get how they're sol lands at all.
I don't see a brainstorm problem, nor a problem which could be even tangentially related to BS.
But that's not what they're talking about, they're just going on about color and land distribution.
Infect, as piloted by Tom Ross, has been doing fabulously for a little while now.
Scalding River
Land - Island Mountain
(T: Add U or R to your mana pool)
T: Add 1U or 1R to your mana pool. This ability can be used just once and only for spells with delve.
If the above card is fair please explain why.
I seem to be exaggerating but, sadly, am not in regards to how good cruise is. Has anyone played with the card in this thread? Pretty nice to brainstorm without having to put cards back at the steep cost of exiling 7 cards in your graveyard. Or if you're so unlucky you have to pay 1U because 1U: Draw 3 at sorcery speed is a fair card. Even at 3 mana cruise is still a pretty insane magic card when you tack one more card onto divination or don't have to discard to compulsive research/thirst for knowledge. I started thinking out you had to delve the full amount at first too but the answer is that you really don't and the card is still nutters. Ditto with dig through time. Dig at 4 mana is comparable to gifts ungiven and fact or fiction but still probably better than both. At 3 it's definitely better. I'd likely take 5 mana dig over 4 mana fact although that isn't ideal naturally.
Black vise is banned because WotC are too lazy to type the words "Legacy - Black vise is no longer banned." I'm pretty sure that's the cause as it's inferior to delver of secrets and would likely be stone unplayable in legacy. I guess you can trinket mage or artificer's intuition it up but that seems hilariously bad.
Currently Playing:
Retired
This goes back to my original argument that DCI should give the players a yearly report on why such and such is banned.
Im going to suspect 2 reasons why black vise is still banned.
First ... What ever was said about mental misstep could apply to black vise. Why would nobody play this card? It cost 1 mana and it deals damage each turn. All you need to do is sinkhole a land, waste another land, play something that adds to the spell cost, you could drop multiples in play on the first turn. I personally never get why those that supported the banning of Mental Misstep would think Black Vise is a safe card.
Second (which I'm starting to believe the reason why) Legacy only seems speedy because of brainstorm and a few non-blue low mana drop decks that compete well against brainstorm decks. If brainstorm is banned, I doubt players would be asking why Black Vise still banned.
Regardless what burn players say about black vise, I know I'll be packing 4 black vise in my deck in a snap and it wont be pretty sitting next to Eidolon of the Great Revel.
PS... The only time Black Vise seemed like a safe card was when Mental Misstep was legal.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
You're talking about a relatively narrow section of decks. There's no doubt it could be 4 or 5 damage for 1 mana in some cases, but it's a hell of a lot worse on the draw and is also dead useless against a lot of decks, making a worse topdeck than a Lava Spike in many situations. It can be explosive, but it's really not any more dangerous than numerous unbanned cards in the same decks. It'd be powerful, but probably only sideboard material. It certainly wouldn't live up to its old nickname of Three Free Bolts given how many decks can either counter it or empty their hand fast enough that it doesn't matter. Or just combo-kill you through it.
Clearly that's a good card - strictly better than Volcanic Island. 'Fair' is a bit of a loaded term. Is the card OP? I guess it depends on whether or not it pushes an archetype or playstyle to the point of oppressive dominace. I'm not seeing that with Cruise + Fetches.
Of course your card is maybe a little over the top because you can fetch for it and get two extra mana (once) for a delve spell! But I believe that was an honest mistake, rather than another attempt to overstate power.
Regarding Black Vise, I've been a propnent of an unban for a while now. More linear aggro would increase diversity and improve the meta, IMO. I can't see it being oppressive - it's too inconsistent. The best home for it is probably affinity, which always has at least some use for a 1cc artifact.
Right now we've got a couple new cards from Commander which might make a splash, so now is more of a time to watch the meta evolve, and eventually settle (heck, the meta is still adjusting to TC).
U/R Delver didn't perform very well. It's seen as the deck to beat because it top eights a lot, which is proportional to it being played so very much. If U/R Delver had been 10% of the meta instead of 20%, would it have even placed?
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Yeah the add 2 extra mana being fetchable was a mistake, which does make it better. A card doesn't need to be oppressive to be an overpowered card. Here's looking at fixed lotus, show and tell, and griselbrand. I would bet money that if griselbrand wasn't legendary it would already be banned in legacy because the answers to it are virtually nonexistent then.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Yep. In a red based affinity deck thye card is at least not dead weight later in the game - it pumps Cranial Plating, Tezz's ultimate, and MoE, plus it sacs to Ravager or Shrapnel Blast. NOt quite worth its weight (any 1cc artifact is as good), but in conjunction with the occassional trun one drops on the play, I thihnk it would overall be worth running.
Affinity is easilly hated out, so I can't see it ever becoming oppressive in Legacy. If we can get Vise for Affinity, Earthcraft for Enchantress, and Frantic Search for High Tide, that would be a glorious day!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Ah, now I see it. This card would be good, but wouldn't break legacy, a format designed to handle most of the best cards in existence.
you lose me when you start going on about the power of TC, when it doesn't seem to be breaking the format.
How is this safe? turn 1 (3 damage), turn 2 (2 damage), turn 3 (1 damage) [That's one card.]
lets try it with spells. Turn 1 (black vise - 3 damage). Turn 2 (Goblin guide attack/opponent draws land. play chain - +5 damage, +3 damage [black vise]... [11 damage total], turn 3 attack with goblin guide, bolt and fireblast!
Do you really think that would be healthy for legacy?
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
No worse than turn 1 Lotus Petal + Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Emrakul, game.
Sure, we can all live in Magical Christmas Land if we like.
I'm not saying BV should come off the banned list. But I don't think it's the boogieman it once was before this format really became close to broken.
Turn one combo decks like storm would like a word with you.
There are also decks that can race much faster and with more consistency.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Burn is already capable of winning on turn 3. Numerous other decks are capable of winning turns 1-3.
This is nothing new to Legacy at all.
If this combo happen at least 25% of the time - show and tell would had been banned! What you shown is a god's hand combo. There is nothing magical from my example, I only showing how effective black vise can be in a burn deck.
@Soulbanana I dont think control will survival against black vise and yes - there are going to be more first turn combo decks.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Yes, it would be fine. Magical hands can be made for any card, for any deck, and they're completely meaningless.
No, you're bringing up magical christmas land hands, they're meaningless. A situation wherein the burn player gets a perfect hand, and the other player does absolutely nothing doesn't really show the power of BV.
How would control not survive BV?
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Round 1 vs Burn (2-0)
Very easy match against a very bad opponent. Cast 1 TC in game 1 and by that time it didn't even matter.
Round 2 vs Reanimator (1-1-1)
Very strange match. Should have won game 3 but he reanimated the True Name that was in my grave yard (he countered it earlier in a counter war) and I couldn't get past it with my Batterskull. Containment Priest kept him from doing anything from that point on (was cast after he reanimated) but the only way I was going to break through was by drawing a 2nd TNN and equipping it.
TC was big in this game but not big enough to win it. Just keep me from losing.
Round 3 vs RUG Delver (0-2)
Got mana screwed both games. Couldn't deal with his Mongoose. Sideboarding in Pyroclasm game 2 I never saw them as well as no land. Counters stalled a while but eventually I lost to a Threshold Mongoose and Delver.
Round 4 vs UR Delver (0-2)
Game 1 was a counter war, both of us going down to a couple of cards. With a clear board, he TC's and I have no answer and that was the game. I couldn't catch up. Game 2 I had to mull down to 5 with no lands at 7 and 6 cards. Didn't see a blue fetch land after drawing plains and 3 straight Tundras. Had bolt in hand but couldn't cast it when he cast SFM and I had no counters. And that was game.
So all in all, I finished with 4 points which is how I usually finish regardless of what I play. This deck made no significant difference. I cast 2 TC's all day and only 1 mattered.
The card is good. It is far from busted. In fact, it is far from the best card in Legacy. In fact, one game, had I drawn anything BUT TC, I might have had a chance. But there I was with a card that I could do nothing with.
IMO, the deck has too many spells that do nothing BUT draw cards. Not enough real gas.
Anyway, I'm convinced now beyond any doubt that TC will not be banned come January.
Round 1 vs Burn (2-0)
Very easy match against a very bad opponent. Cast 1 TC in game 1 and by that time it didn't even matter.
Round 2 vs Reanimator (1-1-1)
Very strange match. Should have won game 3 but he reanimated the True Name that was in my grave yard (he countered it earlier in a counter war) and I couldn't get past it with my Batterskull. Containment Priest kept him from doing anything from that point on (was cast after he reanimated) but the only way I was going to break through was by drawing a 2nd TNN and equipping it.
TC was big in this game but not big enough to win it. Just keep me from losing.
Round 3 vs RUG Delver (0-2)
Got mana screwed both games. Couldn't deal with his Mongoose. Sideboarding in Pyroclasm game 2 I never saw them as well as no land. Counters stalled a while but eventually I lost to a Threshold Mongoose and Delver.
Round 4 vs UR Delver (0-2)
Game 1 was a counter war, both of us going down to a couple of cards. With a clear board, he TC's and I have no answer and that was the game. I couldn't catch up. Game 2 I had to mull down to 5 with no lands at 7 and 6 cards. Didn't see a blue fetch land after drawing plains and 3 straight Tundras. Had bolt in hand but couldn't cast it when he cast SFM and I had no counters. And that was game.
So all in all, I finished with 4 points which is how I usually finish regardless of what I play. This deck made no significant difference. I cast 2 TC's all day and only 1 mattered.
The card is good. It is far from busted. In fact, it is far from the best card in Legacy. In fact, one game, had I drawn anything BUT TC, I might have had a chance. But there I was with a card that I could do nothing with.
IMO, the deck has too many spells that do nothing BUT draw cards. Not enough real gas.
Anyway, I'm convinced now beyond any doubt that TC will not be banned come January.