I dunno about Earthcraft. That card is bonkers. But it might just get Enchantress back in the fight again if they moved to a Mesacraft combo build and that might just be OK. But I could also see it finding a home of some number in Elves, which, from what I hear, is looking pretty good these days anyway.
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Elves really wouldn't want Earthcraft if you ask me.
They already have similar effects that are more synergistic with the rest of their deck. Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, Birchlore Rangers, and Heritage Druid all do similar things to Earthcraft in the context of Elves and they just do it better in that context. Earthcraft can't be found with Green Sun's Zenith, can't be sacrificed to Natural Order, doesn't pump up with Craterhoof Behemoth, doesn't trigger Glimpse, and it doesn't power up Gaea's Cradle.
I would agree that the card works well in Enchantress. It gives them a sort of Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage of their own, something which breathed new life into Lands and even spawning new variants of Lands decks. A reliable and compact combo win that they can deploy after seizing control of the game, ASAP to race, or just as an oops I win option that forces your opponent to answer or die. And neither Squirrel Nest or Earthcraft are dead on their own; Earthcraft can generate mana if you have an Enchantress out, and Squirrel Nest just making tokens can be relevant enough to just serve as blockers. Hell, Squirrel Nest sounds like it would give Miracles fits even just on its own as a clunky Bitterblossom.
Best chance for Twist to see play would be Tezzerator. That's a cool deck, and I'd be happy to see it get a boost. Possibly a MUD list could run Twist, but it would have to be brewed up as no MUD lists currently have a black splash.
Elves really wouldn't want Earthcraft if you ask me.
They already have similar effects that are more synergistic with the rest of their deck. Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, Birchlore Rangers, and Heritage Druid all do similar things to Earthcraft in the context of Elves and they just do it better in that context. Earthcraft can't be found with Green Sun's Zenith, can't be sacrificed to Natural Order, doesn't pump up with Craterhoof Behemoth, doesn't trigger Glimpse, and it doesn't power up Gaea's Cradle.
Earthcraft lets you go crazy with Nettle Sentinels without needing a Heritage Druid, though. Tap Sentinel for mana, cast Glimpse, untap Sentinel, repeat for as much mana as you need. Add another Sentinel for extra hilarity. It also allows other creatures like Ranger/Symbiote to generate additional mana. It might not be a four-of, especially since you only need one, but I could see it getting played just because of what it enables.
Earthcraft does not go onto elves. I forget how many times I have had to say that. You don't need it and have better options to make mana. Plus the deck only runs 2 basics. It goes into Enchantress and for the love of God that deck could use the kick. I mean, lands got its big combo, why not give Enchantress hers?
Earthcraft seems too good to take off the ban list, but Mind Twist is very safe. For a relatively dangerous Mind Twist, too many cards would be needed in the early turns for let's say X = at least 2, but then you'd be better off playing Hymn to Tourach.
How is Earthcraft too good? Is it the 3 card combo that can be broken up by Grip, the mana excelation that is second to almost every other deck with fast mana (Nic Fit does it better and that says something) or the fact that a bunch of 1/1's die to all the same hate people are packing for TNN?
I mean, it's a combo that would kick Enchantress back into high gear but otherwise goes into no other decks. It's going to either give a boost to a dead deck or spawn a new one. No arguments from me about both those things happening. Any deck running SnT is going to be doing more broken ***** than this card can. It's not safe, it's broken in half, but it's less broken than things that are legal. That to me means it's fine to unban. Plus, half the cards we use in this format are not "Safe", that's the charm of Legacy.
Earthcraft lets you go crazy with Nettle Sentinels without needing a Heritage Druid, though. Tap Sentinel for mana, cast Glimpse, untap Sentinel, repeat for as much mana as you need. Add another Sentinel for extra hilarity. It also allows other creatures like Ranger/Symbiote to generate additional mana. It might not be a four-of, especially since you only need one, but I could see it getting played just because of what it enables.
Similarly, you can run Wirewood Hivemaster as another way to generate lots of mana.
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All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
If Earthcraft got an urban, we could see Squirrel Nest doing things in decks again /wishfulthinking. As much as I love Squirrel Nest, Earthcraft is a holdover ban for the days of yore. Much like Mind Twist etc. I'd argue for their unbanning simply to clear out space, because they don't subtract much as permanents/spell and can only add to the format even if only fringe benefit by being available options (if they see no play). Vestigial ban list members should be allowed to rejoin the format. Earthcraft (Mind Twist etc) should be able to frolic with Land Tax on the notepad of deck brewers everywhere.
The thing is, I feel like it would do far more than just clear out space. I think you give Earthcraft to the format and you look at really making something of a currently dead deck. As a player of Painter, I can not say I would be happy to see my worst matchup imaginable suddenly become a thing but that's really not here nor there. Decks have bad matches and I can always just pick up Elves again.
To those that think Earchcraft goes in Elves, you do not have the space for it, it makes Glimpse weaker and many decks have already cut down on the glimpse plan anyway. I now only run 3 Druid and Nettle. That space is used up with other cards like Packmaster and maindeck Ooze. The plan of drawing cards is a strong one, but we have NO as our win con now, Glimpse just fuels it. I honesty have not won though a storm chain in months, its just not the plan any more. You just do not need an Enchantment that makes less mana that Cradle most of the time and you have to build around. I mean, some people would try it, some would like it too and it might spawn off an offshoot of the deck. That would be kind of cool, but it does not go into the deck proper. You just have better ways to make mana, most of which are in the deck and being reduced in number due to the changing face of the deck anyway. Earthcraft does not go in Elves, as cute as that might be, not because the card is not powerful, but because it is not supported by the rest of the framework of the deck.
If you really want to see what you could do with earthcraft I would start with something like U/G Enchantress (or normal enchantress) as it seems like a perfect home in that deck by speeding your combo up by one turn. I also agree that Elves is not the home for it as that deck has really no issue with total mana production and it not bottle necked as that deck can pretty much combo out as earlier as turn two. I am sure there are other ways to make earthcraft busted but its not anymore busted then anything else in legacy.
Earthcraft is a relic and has been for years. If they had unbanned it at the time they unbanned dream halls no one would have given a **** about it. Unban it right now? I still don't care. It loses to spell pierce and what does it go in? If it makes enchantress tier 1 I would be impressed. Enchantress really doesn't need help winning the game, which is what earthcraft does for them as the only synergy outside the combo is making mana with some argothian enchantress's that you don't necessarily have in play/it's just a slight boost and nothing more. Earthcraft is definitely no better than show and tell in fact it's way, way worse. Lion's eye diamond is way better as well. I would argue dark ritual is as well. So many things are more powerful than a crappy 2 mana green enchantment it isn't even funny. To top it off it dies to phyrexian revoker. Squirrelcraft would not happen in legacy ever as well. The card is a joke. WotC just doesn't do anything with legacy at all anymore despite the rumors that GP New Jersey will have upwards of 6,000 in attendance or at least SCG is preparing for 6,000. I thought nothing could top GP Las Vegas since that was modern masters limited/a vastly underprinted set that many attended. I knew lots of people who were going to GP Las Vegas who don't normally travel by air. It just shattered the records and I thought it would be on top for quite some time. If legacy dethrones it as the most attended grand prix....wow. Madrid back in the day was legacy and was most attended but that GP was just 2,227 people, a seemingly tame number in comparison to recent GPs but at the time caused issues logistically as they didn't have enough chairs to seat all the players/some people were playing standing up.
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Earthcraft is a relic and has been for years. If they had unbanned it at the time they unbanned dream halls no one would have given a **** about it. Unban it right now? I still don't care. It loses to spell pierce and what does it go in? If it makes enchantress tier 1 I would be impressed. Enchantress really doesn't need help winning the game, which is what earthcraft does for them as the only synergy outside the combo is making mana with some argothian enchantress's that you don't necessarily have in play/it's just a slight boost and nothing more. Earthcraft is definitely no better than show and tell in fact it's way, way worse. Lion's eye diamond is way better as well. I would argue dark ritual is as well. So many things are more powerful than a crappy 2 mana green enchantment it isn't even funny. To top it off it dies to phyrexian revoker. Squirrelcraft would not happen in legacy ever as well. The card is a joke. WotC just doesn't do anything with legacy at all anymore despite the rumors that GP New Jersey will have upwards of 6,000 in attendance or at least SCG is preparing for 6,000. I thought nothing could top GP Las Vegas since that was modern masters limited/a vastly underprinted set that many attended. I knew lots of people who were going to GP Las Vegas who don't normally travel by air. It just shattered the records and I thought it would be on top for quite some time. If legacy dethrones it as the most attended grand prix....wow. Madrid back in the day was legacy and was most attended but that GP was just 2,227 people, a seemingly tame number in comparison to recent GPs but at the time caused issues logistically as they didn't have enough chairs to seat all the players/some people were playing standing up.
Agreed with all of this. Earthcraft would just be "annoying" but certaintly not broken due to the many cards in print that destroy it. And SCG is talking 6,000 players. My mind cannot comprehend this.
I am still not on the 'ban brainstorm' bandwagon, but the larger argument I've been talking about for a while (see: blue's core of efficient cards + fetchlands = growing too powerful) now pisses me off. Fetches + bstorm/ponder/probe/top is my limit for how much total dig/efficiency/filter Legacy should allow. If a deck wants to be tempo or control alongside these cards, that's one thing. Adding Treasure Cruise to an already strong cluster of filtering cards surpassed my arbitrary line of fun. I want WotC to step in and do something.
Making matters worse, I can't isolate the problem. I fully admit TC by itself (key thing to point out) isn't busted. It's a very fair card. However, the combination of fetches and cantrips makes decks centered around that strategy ridiculous. If GPNJ is dominated by Treasure Cruise, I think it's safe to assume we have another Mental Misstep. This is a tough call because the larger narrative is how TC is busted because of the other synergistic cards that fuel it. This puts us in a different situation than Survival or Mystical.
The question I openly ask 2 questions:
Has TC pushed blue's filtering over the proverbial power-level line?
Would the format be better with blue's (amazing) filter cards sans TC or do we keep TC and ban something else (commonly argued as brainstorm)?
Continuing the second question, perhaps it's time we pull the plug on probe and TC? This would leave us with fetches, brainstorm, and ponder. Alternatively, we could ban bstorm but allow sorcery-speed filtering moving forward.
As of right now, TC could slip into almost every deck, like when Tarmogoyf hit the mainstream. The format is a breeding ground for combining grave-fillers and filtering; both negating TC's "natural downside" of 8 mana. Because it has delve and because this is Legacy, the card is easily cast for very little mana. I've seen the card cast anywhere between fact or fiction and ancestral recall. The UR and BUG delver lists are unfair because they perfectly exploit the card into a chain reaction of bstorm, fetches, ponder, probes, removal ---> TC ---> hitting many of those cards and doing it again. It doesn't help that a powerful strategy has emerged that abuses cards that benefit from this durdling behavior.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Nothing is busted by itself in that shell. It's the critical mass argument. GPNJ is very likely to have a excessive amount of TC, but it doesn't necessarily say anything about that specific card (even if it might still be too strong).
Treasure cruise has taken the format by storm in the last few weeks. Why? It is the the strongest strategy fundamentally. When you can jam 4 ancestral recalls what reason is there to not do so because that's what cruise is.
I don't think we can realistically ban gitaxian probe. The card to go would HAVE to be treasure cruise itself in this case as even without brainstorm, probe, and ponder cruise is still insane enough to build around with ease via fetchlands and lesser cantrips like sleight of hand and serum visions. We can't really ban fetchlands in legacy sure it might be correct to do so on paper however the outrage caused by their banning would kill the format especially when onslaught fetches just got reprinted. If people can keep playing the topdeck as many a. calls as I can game there's nothing else on the table really except to ban cruise. I would really like to know what WotC was thinking when they made treasure cruise and dig through time. There will likely be an article on that subject within a year or rather when they get banhammered out of modern.
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I would really like to know what WotC was thinking when they made treasure cruise and dig through time.
Likely that due to losing Sphinx's Revelation, there needed to be some better card draw for control decks in Standard.
If they were considering older formats with them, they may have also been made to try to give control and tempo a power boost in Modern, because those are the strategies everyone complains are too weak in that format.
There will likely be an article on that subject within a year or rather when they get banhammered out of modern.
I don't see either getting banned in Modern. Okay, fine, it's pretty weird to have Treasure Cruise be legal when the inferior Ancestral Vision is banned, but that speaks more to how Ancestral Vision shouldn't be banned than why Treasure Cruise should be banned.
The only thing I can potentially see getting a ban right now in Modern is Jeskai Ascendancy or Glittering Wish (depending on if they want to completely kill that deck or not), and it's still way too early to figure out if those things are as crazy as some people seem to think they are. Admittedly, we'll probably have a better idea a few days from now.
Treasure cruise has taken the format by storm in the last few weeks. Why? It is the the strongest strategy fundamentally. When you can jam 4 ancestral recalls what reason is there to not do so because that's what cruise is.
I don't think we can realistically ban gitaxian probe. The card to go would HAVE to be treasure cruise itself in this case as even without brainstorm, probe, and ponder cruise is still insane enough to build around with ease via fetchlands and lesser cantrips like sleight of hand and serum visions. We can't really ban fetchlands in legacy sure it might be correct to do so on paper however the outrage caused by their banning would kill the format especially when onslaught fetches just got reprinted. If people can keep playing the topdeck as many a. calls as I can game there's nothing else on the table really except to ban cruise. I would really like to know what WotC was thinking when they made treasure cruise and dig through time. There will likely be an article on that subject within a year or rather when they get banhammered out of modern.
Cruise might get banned in Modern, but Dig Through Time certainly isn't.
Treasure cruise has taken the format by storm in the last few weeks. Why? It is the the strongest strategy fundamentally. When you can jam 4 ancestral recalls what reason is there to not do so because that's what cruise is.
Treasure cruise is the new TNN is the new DRS...
We can move on now.
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Treasure cruise has taken the format by storm in the last few weeks. Why? It is the the strongest strategy fundamentally. When you can jam 4 ancestral recalls what reason is there to not do so because that's what cruise is.
Treasure cruise is the new TNN is the new DRS...
We can move on now.
Agreed!
If there is a card that needs to be banned it would be brainstorm. I'm ok that DCI is not banning brainstorm, but for DCI to look at Treasure Cruise and say it's a problem and not looking at the problems that brainstorm had caused in Legacy is bad on their part.
So far I have been enjoying Treasure Cruise. It has made Energy Field far more effective that it was in the past. Also now maindecking RIP has meant that Team America is almost a non entity anymore.
So far I have been enjoying Treasure Cruise. It has made Energy Field far more effective that it was in the past. Also now maindecking RIP has meant that Team America is almost a non entity anymore.
I'm kind of confused. Playing a lot of Miracles with main deck Energy Field/RIP, how does Treasure Cruise make Energy Field better. The only thing that keeps the card from going to the graveyard is RIP. Now, if you mean it helps you get to your Energy Field faster by drawing you 3 cards then yes, I guess. But for that matter, Treasure Cruise makes just about any deck better that is searching for answers.
A little clarification would help me understand your thought process here.
Because it has made running RIP main a really good idea. The side effect is that now Energy Field is now more useful than it use to be as it's just an additional card you can slot in since your running the shell already.
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They already have similar effects that are more synergistic with the rest of their deck. Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, Birchlore Rangers, and Heritage Druid all do similar things to Earthcraft in the context of Elves and they just do it better in that context. Earthcraft can't be found with Green Sun's Zenith, can't be sacrificed to Natural Order, doesn't pump up with Craterhoof Behemoth, doesn't trigger Glimpse, and it doesn't power up Gaea's Cradle.
I would agree that the card works well in Enchantress. It gives them a sort of Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage of their own, something which breathed new life into Lands and even spawning new variants of Lands decks. A reliable and compact combo win that they can deploy after seizing control of the game, ASAP to race, or just as an oops I win option that forces your opponent to answer or die. And neither Squirrel Nest or Earthcraft are dead on their own; Earthcraft can generate mana if you have an Enchantress out, and Squirrel Nest just making tokens can be relevant enough to just serve as blockers. Hell, Squirrel Nest sounds like it would give Miracles fits even just on its own as a clunky Bitterblossom.
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Earthcraft lets you go crazy with Nettle Sentinels without needing a Heritage Druid, though. Tap Sentinel for mana, cast Glimpse, untap Sentinel, repeat for as much mana as you need. Add another Sentinel for extra hilarity. It also allows other creatures like Ranger/Symbiote to generate additional mana. It might not be a four-of, especially since you only need one, but I could see it getting played just because of what it enables.
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I mean, it's a combo that would kick Enchantress back into high gear but otherwise goes into no other decks. It's going to either give a boost to a dead deck or spawn a new one. No arguments from me about both those things happening. Any deck running SnT is going to be doing more broken ***** than this card can. It's not safe, it's broken in half, but it's less broken than things that are legal. That to me means it's fine to unban. Plus, half the cards we use in this format are not "Safe", that's the charm of Legacy.
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Similarly, you can run Wirewood Hivemaster as another way to generate lots of mana.
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Well, the elves player is saying he doesn't want it, and the only other suggested place is a near dead deck, which deserves a bump.
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To those that think Earchcraft goes in Elves, you do not have the space for it, it makes Glimpse weaker and many decks have already cut down on the glimpse plan anyway. I now only run 3 Druid and Nettle. That space is used up with other cards like Packmaster and maindeck Ooze. The plan of drawing cards is a strong one, but we have NO as our win con now, Glimpse just fuels it. I honesty have not won though a storm chain in months, its just not the plan any more. You just do not need an Enchantment that makes less mana that Cradle most of the time and you have to build around. I mean, some people would try it, some would like it too and it might spawn off an offshoot of the deck. That would be kind of cool, but it does not go into the deck proper. You just have better ways to make mana, most of which are in the deck and being reduced in number due to the changing face of the deck anyway. Earthcraft does not go in Elves, as cute as that might be, not because the card is not powerful, but because it is not supported by the rest of the framework of the deck.
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Agreed with all of this. Earthcraft would just be "annoying" but certaintly not broken due to the many cards in print that destroy it. And SCG is talking 6,000 players. My mind cannot comprehend this.
I am still not on the 'ban brainstorm' bandwagon, but the larger argument I've been talking about for a while (see: blue's core of efficient cards + fetchlands = growing too powerful) now pisses me off. Fetches + bstorm/ponder/probe/top is my limit for how much total dig/efficiency/filter Legacy should allow. If a deck wants to be tempo or control alongside these cards, that's one thing. Adding Treasure Cruise to an already strong cluster of filtering cards surpassed my arbitrary line of fun. I want WotC to step in and do something.
Making matters worse, I can't isolate the problem. I fully admit TC by itself (key thing to point out) isn't busted. It's a very fair card. However, the combination of fetches and cantrips makes decks centered around that strategy ridiculous. If GPNJ is dominated by Treasure Cruise, I think it's safe to assume we have another Mental Misstep. This is a tough call because the larger narrative is how TC is busted because of the other synergistic cards that fuel it. This puts us in a different situation than Survival or Mystical.
The question I openly ask 2 questions:
Has TC pushed blue's filtering over the proverbial power-level line?
Would the format be better with blue's (amazing) filter cards sans TC or do we keep TC and ban something else (commonly argued as brainstorm)?
Continuing the second question, perhaps it's time we pull the plug on probe and TC? This would leave us with fetches, brainstorm, and ponder. Alternatively, we could ban bstorm but allow sorcery-speed filtering moving forward.
As of right now, TC could slip into almost every deck, like when Tarmogoyf hit the mainstream. The format is a breeding ground for combining grave-fillers and filtering; both negating TC's "natural downside" of 8 mana. Because it has delve and because this is Legacy, the card is easily cast for very little mana. I've seen the card cast anywhere between fact or fiction and ancestral recall. The UR and BUG delver lists are unfair because they perfectly exploit the card into a chain reaction of bstorm, fetches, ponder, probes, removal ---> TC ---> hitting many of those cards and doing it again. It doesn't help that a powerful strategy has emerged that abuses cards that benefit from this durdling behavior.
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I don't think we can realistically ban gitaxian probe. The card to go would HAVE to be treasure cruise itself in this case as even without brainstorm, probe, and ponder cruise is still insane enough to build around with ease via fetchlands and lesser cantrips like sleight of hand and serum visions. We can't really ban fetchlands in legacy sure it might be correct to do so on paper however the outrage caused by their banning would kill the format especially when onslaught fetches just got reprinted. If people can keep playing the topdeck as many a. calls as I can game there's nothing else on the table really except to ban cruise. I would really like to know what WotC was thinking when they made treasure cruise and dig through time. There will likely be an article on that subject within a year or rather when they get banhammered out of modern.
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If they were considering older formats with them, they may have also been made to try to give control and tempo a power boost in Modern, because those are the strategies everyone complains are too weak in that format.
I don't see either getting banned in Modern. Okay, fine, it's pretty weird to have Treasure Cruise be legal when the inferior Ancestral Vision is banned, but that speaks more to how Ancestral Vision shouldn't be banned than why Treasure Cruise should be banned.
The only thing I can potentially see getting a ban right now in Modern is Jeskai Ascendancy or Glittering Wish (depending on if they want to completely kill that deck or not), and it's still way too early to figure out if those things are as crazy as some people seem to think they are. Admittedly, we'll probably have a better idea a few days from now.
Cruise might get banned in Modern, but Dig Through Time certainly isn't.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Treasure cruise is the new TNN is the new DRS...
We can move on now.
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Agreed!
If there is a card that needs to be banned it would be brainstorm. I'm ok that DCI is not banning brainstorm, but for DCI to look at Treasure Cruise and say it's a problem and not looking at the problems that brainstorm had caused in Legacy is bad on their part.
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Modern: Lantern.
I'm kind of confused. Playing a lot of Miracles with main deck Energy Field/RIP, how does Treasure Cruise make Energy Field better. The only thing that keeps the card from going to the graveyard is RIP. Now, if you mean it helps you get to your Energy Field faster by drawing you 3 cards then yes, I guess. But for that matter, Treasure Cruise makes just about any deck better that is searching for answers.
A little clarification would help me understand your thought process here.
Current decks of choice:
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Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
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