Yes, the guy who plays land tax in legacy is clearly the guy who would keep it banned.
Apparently I need to be more explicit for some of you. Is the format stagnant? Are the same decks always making the top tables? No. Why shake things up then? I would love to see that ban list removed, but it will never happen over night. It will be a slow trickle at best. For what it's worth as well, I repeat this as I feel it is how wizards operates here.
Also HrishiQQ I hope soldier informed you enough so you can understand where us long time players are coming from.
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Yes, the guy who plays land tax in legacy is clearly the guy who would keep it banned.
Apparently I need to be more explicit for some of you. Is the format stagnant? Are the same decks always making the top tables? No. Why shake things up then? I would love to see that ban list removed, but it will never happen over night. It will be a slow trickle at best. For what it's worth as well, I repeat this as I feel it is how wizards operates here.
Also HrishiQQ I hope soldier informed you enough so you can understand where us long time players are coming from.
wow I feel so old school... I do remember reading the ban list from a wizards messageboard thread and feeling so disappointed that I had to restrict my necro. At the time I was playing a red/black necro deck.
I know a lot of players wont know this, but I do remember when a wave of players from extended to 1.5 and DCI was threating to restrict mana drain. I remembered working with a bunch of other players in starting a 1.75 format. It would be a 1.5 format with it's own ban list. At the time, it was believed that type 1.5 was never going to have it's own ban list apart from type 1. The 1.75 project was dropped when wizards announced they are breaking the links between type 1 and 1.5.
I do believe black vise is too powerful of a card for legacy because it's existence will warp the format. For example, players will be forced to play faster spells (that dumps the hand) just in case they are playing against Black Vise.
That or run counter-spells! But if everyone did switch to fast decks (which they won't), Vise would become utterly unplayable. It's only value comes from matches against slow decks.
And as a heads up for those not interested in going through pages of text this is the gist of my earlier statement.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The format is healthy. While there are many cards that can come off there is no need to unban anything.
This is silly. Cards don't start in the ban list. Cards get banned if they warp the format. If they do not warp the format, what are they doing in the ban list? Would you say Land Tax still needs to stay there?
You do realized that most of the cards listed in the legacy ban list was banned by old type 1 rules and not because they 'warped the format.' For example, Necro warp extended because Trix happen to be a good deck. So when DCI finaly was forced to ban Necro from extended, they also restrict necro in type 1. Necro did nothing in 1.5 at the time because in 2000 nobody but casual players were playing 1.5.
Here is an old thread in 2000... please read how the players were shocked when Necro was restricted in old type 1. (also note that channel and mind twist was finally removed from the type 1 ban list)
Now I'm not trying to advocate necro to be unbanned in Legacy (I'm tired of going around and around in circles) but I'm pointing out that there are cards that are banned in legacy - not because they 'warped the format' but because of other outside circumstances.
I don't see why Mind Twist or Black Vise should come off the ban list. I do believe black vise is too powerful of a card for legacy because it's existence will warp the format. For example, players will be forced to play faster spells (that dumps the hand) just in case they are playing against Black Vise. This is big and it will happen. Ever heard of 'drain targets'? If you didn't, I'll explain. In type 1 and a short time in 1.5 players were using the theory of not playing fat spells because they can be 'drain targets' - ball lightning was a big drop from aggressive decks at the time.
I don't think 'drain targets' is an issue in current vintage format but I had not played vintage since the restriction of brainstorm. But I do believe if black vise becomes legal players are going to use the card, it works will with wastelands and hate bears.
Mind Twist this is an interesting cards because the common argument says "card is a bad hymn" and "first turn play is Christmas lands" but you guys seem to forget the effect Mind Twist can accomplish is more powerful. It's also 1 discard spell that works as several discards spells in the end game.
I believe we've found which Conspiracy cards are banned in Legacy/Vintage. I don't think it's just because of Tarmogoyf; it probably has more to do with shenanigans of the Shahrazad level.
I'm curious to see what cards do come out from the conspiracy ban cards, and if any of those cards are EDH acceptable. I do like this idea 1,000 times more then wizards printing another unglued set (I think both unglued and unhinged are the dumbest things wizards had had made).
This is not meant to confront or anything, but I've seen you say that Vise would be too powerful for the last few pages, and most other people don't seem to agree (I don't either). Would you mind suggesting a rough shell/shells that would use it? There was a Caleb Durward video a few weeks back that showed how awful it was, but that was just one deck. Perhaps I'm missing something?
This is not meant to confront or anything, but I've seen you say that Vise would be too powerful for the last few pages, and most other people don't seem to agree (I don't either). Would you mind suggesting a rough shell/shells that would use it? There was a Caleb Durward video a few weeks back that showed how awful it was, but that was just one deck. Perhaps I'm missing something?
Yes, you are missing something. All the decks that would run the Black Vise exist only in Vintage right now and are usually termed "Prison" decks because they lock you out of the game and leave you with a full grip and a case of the "feel bads". You should look up any MUD Prison, or MUD Stax deck in Vintage and you'll see they run 12 "sphere" effects (Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone Golem, Thorn of Amethyst), Phyrexian Metamorph, Tanglewire, Smokestack, Trinisphere and a number of other "feel bad" cards. Example: http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Vintage_Stax_deck In Vintage you have Workshop and a number of other hard hitting threats to dump off of it early in the game that you can't do in Legacy so an alternate win condition would become Black Vise, dealing 1-3 damage a turn combined with your other few damage sources.
Black Vice is a card that, while it isn't inherently powerful, falls under the new reason for banning cards which is as mentioned above, is causing cases of the "feel bads." When enough people suffer at the hands of certain cards even though they may not be inherently powerful just oppressive in some form, WotC takes that into consideration as it will cause attendance to drop at events and is generally unhealthy for the game.
I can't agree with Solider either on Vise. I can't really come up with a shell where Vise would be an all-star and push a deck to Tier 1 status. I think that a Vise unban would go something like a Land Tax unban where people try to jam it into a number of decks, they then figure out that they would rather have most anything else in that slot, and then remove it from the deck. The fact of the matter is that Vise, even in your opening hand, is likely to be no better than a bolt and half. This if course assumes that you draw it in your opening seven and don't have another one-drop that you'd rather play. If Vise does have a home in a Legacy deck, it's probably Burn, but is Vise (conditional damage) really better than direct damage? I guess maybe people try to SB it against Control?
Soldier - a card only warps the format if everyone is forced to play it or play around it. I can't see how Vise is that type of card. Mental Misstep was that type of card. Vise doesn't stop your opponent from really executing their gameplan, they may just take a few additional points of damage while doing so. And, on the topic of Mind Twist - yes, its powerful. But, its extremely situational. Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Twist for 4 sounds awesome, but you now have the same number of cards in hand as your opponent. I can really only see Twist in a mono-black deck or the sideboard of Esper Control (for the Control mirror). You haven't really explained clearly why Twist would be such a big issue in a format with access to a ton of counters?
This is not meant to confront or anything, but I've seen you say that Vise would be too powerful for the last few pages, and most other people don't seem to agree (I don't either). Would you mind suggesting a rough shell/shells that would use it? There was a Caleb Durward video a few weeks back that showed how awful it was, but that was just one deck. Perhaps I'm missing something?
First, the card cost 1cc (colorless mana) therefore anybody can play it.
Second, if a card suggest a player must alter deck design because of it's existence then we are talking about a warped format. (do you agree with this?) I had said countless of times that the decks that black vise will hurt are slow decks.
Looking back a few years ago, there was a magic card that existed in the format for less then 3 months, it was banned because players didnt like the idea of playing fatter spells to go around the card. This card was called Mental Misstep. Therefore if it's good to ban Mental Misstep because players dont like the idea of playing spells that are outside the 1cc targets, then I dont see why it's would be right (correct or even ok) for any other card to be legal that would suggest the same deck construction rules.
I think Caleb Durward is fishing, he should know the card is easy to abuse with wastelands/hate bears. [Yes, I would play Black Vise in a burn deck, Stasis deck & Delver types)
(repeat myself -> I dont see how Black Vise could be unbanned when we had to rush and ban Mental Misstep.)
Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Twist for 4 sounds awesome, but you now have the same number of cards in hand as your opponent.
And because of that, Twist doesnt sound awesome early game. Early game Hymn is far more scary a card.
I would like to see Twist returned, however, i have stated in the past (its been a while since ive bothered to post in this thread, it seems to be a constant swirl) that it CAN be powerful, but not in a deck designed for turn 1 twists, but instead, turn 2 or 3 twists. Elf Ramp decks, certain affinity builds, etc, can generate a ton of mana turn by turn 3 at the latest, and while yes, counter magic would keep it reigned in (WHICH IS WHY IT'D BE OK TO LEGALIZE), having an deck ramp out a small army then hit you for a pitch 5+, thats pretty much game over.
Yes, you are missing something. All the decks that would run the Black Vise exist only in Vintage right now and are usually termed "Prison" decks because they lock you out of the game and leave you with a full grip and a case of the "feel bads". You should look up any MUD Prison, or MUD Stax deck in Vintage and you'll see they run 12 "sphere" effects (Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone Golem, Thorn of Amethyst), Phyrexian Metamorph, Tanglewire, Smokestack, Trinisphere and a number of other "feel bad" cards. Example: http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Vintage_Stax_deck In Vintage you have Workshop and a number of other hard hitting threats to dump off of it early in the game that you can't do in Legacy so an alternate win condition would become Black Vise, dealing 1-3 damage a turn combined with your other few damage sources.
Black Vice is a card that, while it isn't inherently powerful, falls under the new reason for banning cards which is as mentioned above, is causing cases of the "feel bads." When enough people suffer at the hands of certain cards even though they may not be inherently powerful just oppressive in some form, WotC takes that into consideration as it will cause attendance to drop at events and is generally unhealthy for the game.
You're mistaken if you believe that prison is weaker in Legacy due to lack of cheap threat. It just doesn't have consistency. If you can lock your opponent out of playing their cards, you should be winning the game anyways.
First, the card cost 1cc (colorless mana) therefore anybody can play it.
Second, if a card suggest a player must alter deck design because of it's existence then we are talking about a warped format. (do you agree with this?) I had said countless of times that the decks that black vise will hurt are slow decks.
Looking back a few years ago, there was a magic card that existed in the format for less then 3 months, it was banned because players didnt like the idea of playing fatter spells to go around the card. This card was called Mental Misstep. Therefore if it's good to ban Mental Misstep because players dont like the idea of playing spells that are outside the 1cc targets, then I dont see why it's would be right (correct or even ok) for any other card to be legal that would suggest the same deck construction rules.
I think Caleb Durward is fishing, he should know the card is easy to abuse with wastelands/hate bears. [Yes, I would play Black Vise in a burn deck, Stasis deck & Delver types)
(repeat myself -> I dont see how Black Vise could be unbanned when we had to rush and ban Mental Misstep.)
Mental Misstep is an awful comparison. Misstep was banned because it saw play in almost every deck. Vise would be played in almost no decks, if at all. You could list the decks that it "hoses" and that list would be REALLY short. You may as well suggest banning Rest in Peace because of what it does to graveyard based decks.
Mental Misstep is an awful comparison. Misstep was banned because it saw play in almost every deck. Vise would be played in almost no decks, if at all. You could list the decks that it "hoses" and that list would be REALLY short. You may as well suggest banning Rest in Peace because of what it does to graveyard based decks.
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Dont go start trolling for a fight, I'm not in control with the ban list. I'm only using the mental misstep because the card was banned because it forced players to change their decks (WARPED THE FORMAT). Would Black Vise be as dramatic as Mental Misstep isnt the point, the point is if it's ok to ban a card because it warped a format then why unban a card that could also suggest format warping. We all know the only decks effected by Black Vise are slow decks; and I would consider it format warping if those decks are now consider unplayable BECAUSE BLACK VISE IS NOW LEGAL.
The only thing Black Vice would do is SB tech against Miracles. Almost every other deck in the format will have a hand down to 3-5 cards and then the damage would be negligible, due to the fact they would draw some sort of hate that would be able to deal with it.
As for Mind twist, the ONLY thing it might be good in, (and I say good not format warping) are the two decks that can take advantage of it. ANT and TES but that just means they wasted some rituals on it because it can still be countered.
Neither of these cards being unbanned would be a big splash like survival or oath MIGHT make if they came back.
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"You can't stop the signal, Mel." - Mr. Universe
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
I say it every time Mind Twist is brought up and literally every time it seems to be forgotten, but if there's a Mind Twist deck in Legacy it's Tezzerator, OR it will be a sideboard card to break open a midrange/control matchup.
Affinity and Elves could potentially play it in the sideboard because it can potentially steal a win in their hard matchups (Miracles and combo) but that's likely it for them. But even then, it's not like combo and Miracles don't have perfectly good plans to beat an early-midgame Mind Twist. Combo can just strip it from their hand turn 1, and protect their key cards with cantrips. Miracles has cantrips as well, and having an active Top makes Mind Twist almost look silly, not to mention Miracles has plenty of countermagic that they would want in these matchups anyways.
The only deck I really see playing Mind Twist in the main is Tezzerator because it naturally fits into its core plan of "play bombs until one of them resolves and wins."
Don't go start trolling for a fight, I'm not in control with the ban list. I'm only using the mental misstep because the card was banned because it forced players to change their decks (WARPED THE FORMAT). Would Black Vise be as dramatic as Mental Misstep isnt the point, the point is if it's ok to ban a card because it warped a format then why unban a card that could also suggest format warping. We all know the only decks effected by Black Vise are slow decks; and I would consider it format warping if those decks are now consider unplayable BECAUSE BLACK VISE IS NOW LEGAL.
What exactly is your definition of "format warping?" The way you're describing Vise "warping the format," it sounds like the majority of Legacy hosers are "format warping." It is all about scale. Misstep caused the entire format to change their deck. List the decks that have to change because of Vise. It is extremely short. So short I would guess that Vise wouldn't even see a lot of play and those "affected" decks may not even bother changing their configuration.
SOLDIER:
If a card merely suggests that you have to alter deck design, and that warrants a ban, then we need to really break out the Banhammer! I absolutely don't agree with your logic. Black Vise in no way FORCES anyone to alter their deck design. No one needs to do anything if Black Vise exists in the format.
You could try to design a deck around Black Vise, Wasteland, and Hate Bears, but you would need to consistently draw some combination of those elements and your opponent has to be non-basic heavy. Good luck making that deck work.
Mental Misstep and Black Vise cannot and should not be compared. Mental Misstep had the ability to hamper/shut down the opponents game plan. Black Vise doesn't do that. A player can choose to ignore the damage or destroy the Vise. Otherwise, you just continue on your merry way.
For all the hate on misstep, I feel it is worth noting that it was starting to sort itself out overseas. The arguement being it wasn't given enough time and in essence echoing how some felt about TNN at first.
It may also be worth noting that, in a way, force of will had warped the format as well and is seen as a good and necessary card.
I will know return you to the regular innane banter.
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I also feel there is the component that because a card is on the banned list people assume its broken in the format. Black Vise and Mind Twist were banned in a total different era than the meta of today. I know somthing similar recently happened with modern Deathrite Shaman before the ban most didn't really consider him broken. Now when I talk to people they act like its more broken the Ancestral Recall (even some of the same people) interesting how opinions change.
I normally expect no changes in the Legacy format but given Caleb's videos and the fact that we haven't had a change in a while, I honestly think we will see something unbanned.
I normally expect no changes in the Legacy format but given Caleb's videos and the fact that we haven't had a change in a while, I honestly think we will see something unbanned.
My prediction
-Mind Twist unbanned.
I think we are going to get 10 to 15 new cards added to the ban list when Conspiracy comes out...
I agree with most of this. But you have said that you want fast combo back in the format. For that to happen there would have to be free counterspells, which would lead to a blue-dominated format where nonblue decks don't stand much of a chance against Combo much of the time (like Legacy). I don't want Modern to turn into that.
It seems you are missing an important part of the difference between how the Legacy banned list is managed vs the Modern banned list.
You can put fast combo into Modern without adding more free counter-spell. Maybe turn one combo would be too fast, but trun three combo decks shouldn't be a problem for the meta. And this is the heart of the difference!
In Modern, combo decks have seen the ban-hammer not because they were too strong for the meta to handle - but simply because they are deemed distasteful. Sure, if the combo deck in question is warping the meta game and killing the diversity, something needs to be banned. But if something is banned when these criteria are not [present, the ban-hammer is actually stifling diversity instead of preserving it!
This is the big difference between how Legacy is managed vs other formats. And it's entirely on topic! As interest in Legacy grows, we can expect more and more players in this thread coming from another background and having very different expectations from the banned list than experienced Legacy players have. Most Legacy players like the banned list management just how it is.
Second, if a card suggest a player must alter deck design because of it's existence then we are talking about a warped format. (do you agree with this?)
I don't agree with this. Every prominent card in the meta (more importantly the strategies that such cards produce) should affect how you build your deck! You can call this 'warping' the meta, but 'warp' becomes a pretty useless term if it includes all sorts of powerful cards which are well balanced and contained. Tarmogoyf caused players to rethink deck design - it put up a faster clock and is immune to one of the main removal strategies. Did it affect the format? Yes! Does Tarmogyf leave the format in a 'warped' state? I say no, but if that's your definition of warped so be it. But 'warped' according to you no longer describes an unhealthy or undesirable state. So what's the point it using 'warp' like that?
I would use the term only if the card/deck in question is drastically reducing the diversity in our meta game. This is a better definition to go by, because this way a card which 'warps' the meta actually posses a genuine problem, and not just a harmless shake-up.
Best policy is to never throw the term 'warp' around without qualifying what you actually mean (which I note you have done). This way we can examine the heart of you argument and not bicker forever over verbal conflicts.
I agree with most of this. But you have said that you want fast combo back in the format. For that to happen there would have to be free counterspells, which would lead to a blue-dominated format where nonblue decks don't stand much of a chance against Combo much of the time (like Legacy). I don't want Modern to turn into that.
It seems you are missing an important part of the difference between how the Legacy banned list is managed vs the Modern banned list.
You can put fast combo into Modern without adding more free counter-spell. Maybe turn one combo would be too fast, but trun three combo decks shouldn't be a problem for the meta. And this is the heart of the difference!
In Modern, combo decks have seen the ban-hammer not because they were too strong for the meta to handle - but simply because they are deemed distasteful. Sure, if the combo deck in question is warping the meta game and killing the diversity, something needs to be banned. But if something is banned when these criteria are not [present, the ban-hammer is actually stifling diversity instead of preserving it!
This is the big difference between how Legacy is managed vs other formats. And it's entirely on topic! As interest in Legacy grows, we can expect more and more players in this thread coming from another background and having very different expectations from the banned list than experienced Legacy players have. Most Legacy players like the banned list management just how it is.
I agree with this. I was replying to Yokenura saying that Modern's banned list should be treated like Legacy's. Legacy is an amazing format. But Modern should be treated differently.
I agree with this. I was replying to Yokenura saying that Modern's banned list should be treated like Legacy's. Legacy is an amazing format. But Modern should be treated differently.
I won't debate the "shoulds" of the Matter. What I was saying is that the Modern card pool would be enough to make the format different without having a unique banned list philosophy. For instance, if FoW didn't exist in Legacy we would need to ban more combo enablers to slow the format down to a reasonable level. But we wouldn't need to change the philosophy of the banned list! The different card pool would make for different cards needing to be banned. The Legacy banned list is not designed to maintain a certain power level - it's only purpose is to balance the archetypes such that most are at similar power levels - whatever that level may be.
In other words, Modern adopting a Legacy style banned list philosophy would not turn Modern into Legacy Lite! It would still need to be slower because the Modern pool can't handle as much speed as Legacy. But it doesn't need to be sand-bagged to the point it is just to keep Modern from becoming Legacy Lite.
Right now many Modern players are graduating from Standard or Extended, and WotC is wise to keep this a smooth transition. In a few years most Modern Players will be experienced more with Modern, and many could be wishing they could buy into Legacy (it's on it's way to prohibitive prices). If this happens, WotC would be wise to revise their policy.
I agree with this. I was replying to Yokenura saying that Modern's banned list should be treated like Legacy's. Legacy is an amazing format. But Modern should be treated differently.
I won't debate the "shoulds" of the Matter. What I was saying is that the Modern card pool would be enough to make the format different without having a unique banned list philosophy. For instance, if FoW didn't exist in Legacy we would need to ban more combo enablers to slow the format down to a reasonable level. But we wouldn't need to change the philosophy of the banned list! The different card pool would make for different cards needing to be banned. The Legacy banned list is not designed to maintain a certain power level - it's only purpose is to balance the archetypes such that most are at similar power levels - whatever that level may be.
In other words, Modern adopting a Legacy style banned list philosophy would not turn Modern into Legacy Lite! It would still need to be slower because the Modern pool can't handle as much speed as Legacy. But it doesn't need to be sand-bagged to the point it is just to keep Modern from becoming Legacy Lite.
Right now many Modern players are graduating from Standard or Extended, and WotC is wise to keep this a smooth transition. In a few years most Modern Players will be experienced more with Modern, and many could be wishing they could buy into Legacy (it's on it's way to prohibitive prices). If this happens, WotC would be wise to revise their policy.
I agree with this. However, Yokenura has said before that he wants everything other than Mental Misttep and Skullclamp unbanned in Modern. Without a free counterspell this is not feasible and with a free counterspells we will just have blue dominating everything.
I also feel there is the component that because a card is on the banned list people assume its broken in the format. Black Vise and Mind Twist were banned in a total different era than the meta of today. I know somthing similar recently happened with modern Deathrite Shaman before the ban most didn't really consider him broken. Now when I talk to people they act like its more broken the Ancestral Recall (even some of the same people) interesting how opinions change.
I still think that he isn't broken. I am just happy that I can make effective graveyard-based decks in Modern now.
I've suggested modern unban everything and just ban the fetchlands. A lot of what's broken in legacy is more a result of decks being consistant. Honestly I think it would be interesting if that does happen. It may open up new debate for something like legacy.
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Apparently I need to be more explicit for some of you. Is the format stagnant? Are the same decks always making the top tables? No. Why shake things up then? I would love to see that ban list removed, but it will never happen over night. It will be a slow trickle at best. For what it's worth as well, I repeat this as I feel it is how wizards operates here.
Also HrishiQQ I hope soldier informed you enough so you can understand where us long time players are coming from.
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wow I feel so old school... I do remember reading the ban list from a wizards messageboard thread and feeling so disappointed that I had to restrict my necro. At the time I was playing a red/black necro deck.
I know a lot of players wont know this, but I do remember when a wave of players from extended to 1.5 and DCI was threating to restrict mana drain. I remembered working with a bunch of other players in starting a 1.75 format. It would be a 1.5 format with it's own ban list. At the time, it was believed that type 1.5 was never going to have it's own ban list apart from type 1. The 1.75 project was dropped when wizards announced they are breaking the links between type 1 and 1.5.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
That or run counter-spells! But if everyone did switch to fast decks (which they won't), Vise would become utterly unplayable. It's only value comes from matches against slow decks.
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WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Yes, you are missing something. All the decks that would run the Black Vise exist only in Vintage right now and are usually termed "Prison" decks because they lock you out of the game and leave you with a full grip and a case of the "feel bads". You should look up any MUD Prison, or MUD Stax deck in Vintage and you'll see they run 12 "sphere" effects (Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone Golem, Thorn of Amethyst), Phyrexian Metamorph, Tanglewire, Smokestack, Trinisphere and a number of other "feel bad" cards. Example: http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Vintage_Stax_deck In Vintage you have Workshop and a number of other hard hitting threats to dump off of it early in the game that you can't do in Legacy so an alternate win condition would become Black Vise, dealing 1-3 damage a turn combined with your other few damage sources.
Black Vice is a card that, while it isn't inherently powerful, falls under the new reason for banning cards which is as mentioned above, is causing cases of the "feel bads." When enough people suffer at the hands of certain cards even though they may not be inherently powerful just oppressive in some form, WotC takes that into consideration as it will cause attendance to drop at events and is generally unhealthy for the game.
Soldier - a card only warps the format if everyone is forced to play it or play around it. I can't see how Vise is that type of card. Mental Misstep was that type of card. Vise doesn't stop your opponent from really executing their gameplan, they may just take a few additional points of damage while doing so. And, on the topic of Mind Twist - yes, its powerful. But, its extremely situational. Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Twist for 4 sounds awesome, but you now have the same number of cards in hand as your opponent. I can really only see Twist in a mono-black deck or the sideboard of Esper Control (for the Control mirror). You haven't really explained clearly why Twist would be such a big issue in a format with access to a ton of counters?
First, the card cost 1cc (colorless mana) therefore anybody can play it.
Second, if a card suggest a player must alter deck design because of it's existence then we are talking about a warped format. (do you agree with this?) I had said countless of times that the decks that black vise will hurt are slow decks.
Looking back a few years ago, there was a magic card that existed in the format for less then 3 months, it was banned because players didnt like the idea of playing fatter spells to go around the card. This card was called Mental Misstep. Therefore if it's good to ban Mental Misstep because players dont like the idea of playing spells that are outside the 1cc targets, then I dont see why it's would be right (correct or even ok) for any other card to be legal that would suggest the same deck construction rules.
I think Caleb Durward is fishing, he should know the card is easy to abuse with wastelands/hate bears. [Yes, I would play Black Vise in a burn deck, Stasis deck & Delver types)
(repeat myself -> I dont see how Black Vise could be unbanned when we had to rush and ban Mental Misstep.)
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
And because of that, Twist doesnt sound awesome early game. Early game Hymn is far more scary a card.
I would like to see Twist returned, however, i have stated in the past (its been a while since ive bothered to post in this thread, it seems to be a constant swirl) that it CAN be powerful, but not in a deck designed for turn 1 twists, but instead, turn 2 or 3 twists. Elf Ramp decks, certain affinity builds, etc, can generate a ton of mana turn by turn 3 at the latest, and while yes, counter magic would keep it reigned in (WHICH IS WHY IT'D BE OK TO LEGALIZE), having an deck ramp out a small army then hit you for a pitch 5+, thats pretty much game over.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
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Dont go start trolling for a fight, I'm not in control with the ban list. I'm only using the mental misstep because the card was banned because it forced players to change their decks (WARPED THE FORMAT). Would Black Vise be as dramatic as Mental Misstep isnt the point, the point is if it's ok to ban a card because it warped a format then why unban a card that could also suggest format warping. We all know the only decks effected by Black Vise are slow decks; and I would consider it format warping if those decks are now consider unplayable BECAUSE BLACK VISE IS NOW LEGAL.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
As for Mind twist, the ONLY thing it might be good in, (and I say good not format warping) are the two decks that can take advantage of it. ANT and TES but that just means they wasted some rituals on it because it can still be countered.
Neither of these cards being unbanned would be a big splash like survival or oath MIGHT make if they came back.
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
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Affinity and Elves could potentially play it in the sideboard because it can potentially steal a win in their hard matchups (Miracles and combo) but that's likely it for them. But even then, it's not like combo and Miracles don't have perfectly good plans to beat an early-midgame Mind Twist. Combo can just strip it from their hand turn 1, and protect their key cards with cantrips. Miracles has cantrips as well, and having an active Top makes Mind Twist almost look silly, not to mention Miracles has plenty of countermagic that they would want in these matchups anyways.
The only deck I really see playing Mind Twist in the main is Tezzerator because it naturally fits into its core plan of "play bombs until one of them resolves and wins."
If a card merely suggests that you have to alter deck design, and that warrants a ban, then we need to really break out the Banhammer! I absolutely don't agree with your logic. Black Vise in no way FORCES anyone to alter their deck design. No one needs to do anything if Black Vise exists in the format.
You could try to design a deck around Black Vise, Wasteland, and Hate Bears, but you would need to consistently draw some combination of those elements and your opponent has to be non-basic heavy. Good luck making that deck work.
Mental Misstep and Black Vise cannot and should not be compared. Mental Misstep had the ability to hamper/shut down the opponents game plan. Black Vise doesn't do that. A player can choose to ignore the damage or destroy the Vise. Otherwise, you just continue on your merry way.
It may also be worth noting that, in a way, force of will had warped the format as well and is seen as a good and necessary card.
I will know return you to the regular innane banter.
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My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
My prediction
-Mind Twist unbanned.
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I think we are going to get 10 to 15 new cards added to the ban list when Conspiracy comes out...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
It seems you are missing an important part of the difference between how the Legacy banned list is managed vs the Modern banned list.
You can put fast combo into Modern without adding more free counter-spell. Maybe turn one combo would be too fast, but trun three combo decks shouldn't be a problem for the meta. And this is the heart of the difference!
In Modern, combo decks have seen the ban-hammer not because they were too strong for the meta to handle - but simply because they are deemed distasteful. Sure, if the combo deck in question is warping the meta game and killing the diversity, something needs to be banned. But if something is banned when these criteria are not [present, the ban-hammer is actually stifling diversity instead of preserving it!
This is the big difference between how Legacy is managed vs other formats. And it's entirely on topic! As interest in Legacy grows, we can expect more and more players in this thread coming from another background and having very different expectations from the banned list than experienced Legacy players have. Most Legacy players like the banned list management just how it is.
I don't agree with this. Every prominent card in the meta (more importantly the strategies that such cards produce) should affect how you build your deck! You can call this 'warping' the meta, but 'warp' becomes a pretty useless term if it includes all sorts of powerful cards which are well balanced and contained. Tarmogoyf caused players to rethink deck design - it put up a faster clock and is immune to one of the main removal strategies. Did it affect the format? Yes! Does Tarmogyf leave the format in a 'warped' state? I say no, but if that's your definition of warped so be it. But 'warped' according to you no longer describes an unhealthy or undesirable state. So what's the point it using 'warp' like that?
I would use the term only if the card/deck in question is drastically reducing the diversity in our meta game. This is a better definition to go by, because this way a card which 'warps' the meta actually posses a genuine problem, and not just a harmless shake-up.
Best policy is to never throw the term 'warp' around without qualifying what you actually mean (which I note you have done). This way we can examine the heart of you argument and not bicker forever over verbal conflicts.
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I agree with this. I was replying to Yokenura saying that Modern's banned list should be treated like Legacy's. Legacy is an amazing format. But Modern should be treated differently.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I won't debate the "shoulds" of the Matter. What I was saying is that the Modern card pool would be enough to make the format different without having a unique banned list philosophy. For instance, if FoW didn't exist in Legacy we would need to ban more combo enablers to slow the format down to a reasonable level. But we wouldn't need to change the philosophy of the banned list! The different card pool would make for different cards needing to be banned. The Legacy banned list is not designed to maintain a certain power level - it's only purpose is to balance the archetypes such that most are at similar power levels - whatever that level may be.
In other words, Modern adopting a Legacy style banned list philosophy would not turn Modern into Legacy Lite! It would still need to be slower because the Modern pool can't handle as much speed as Legacy. But it doesn't need to be sand-bagged to the point it is just to keep Modern from becoming Legacy Lite.
Right now many Modern players are graduating from Standard or Extended, and WotC is wise to keep this a smooth transition. In a few years most Modern Players will be experienced more with Modern, and many could be wishing they could buy into Legacy (it's on it's way to prohibitive prices). If this happens, WotC would be wise to revise their policy.
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RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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I agree with this. However, Yokenura has said before that he wants everything other than Mental Misttep and Skullclamp unbanned in Modern. Without a free counterspell this is not feasible and with a free counterspells we will just have blue dominating everything.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I still think that he isn't broken. I am just happy that I can make effective graveyard-based decks in Modern now.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
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