Worldgorger Dragon likely would make an impact on the meta. However, similar to dredge, it too plays on a different axis, and as such legacy will adapt adopting sideboard cards like time stop or trickbind to deal with it. In the same way that people adopting Grave Hate to deal with Reanimator or Dredge becoming popular.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Yeah, Legacy is not the same game that it was before. I think we can handle it.
Edit: This ties in a lot with what I see as the purpose of the ban list. I view it as less for simple removing of items from the game, declaring them too powerful, and rather as a buffer, such that things like WorldGorger that during their time would be overpowered, are delayed entering the scene, so that the game can adapt and evolve so that they have less of an impact.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
No one likes competetive games where you can force draws, that is the issue with world gorger. Beyond the potential to draw games at instant speed, it is just a bad card and safe in that respect.
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I think Black Vise and Mind Twist are safe for legacy too. First Hymn is already more efficient than Mind Twist. Black Vise can only kill a player as fast a flipped delver, but the opponent can lessen the damage by playing cards, unlike delver.
No one likes competetive games where you can force draws, that is the issue with world gorger. Beyond the potential to draw games at instant speed, it is just a bad card and safe in that respect.
I consider the World Gorger ban equal to Shahrazad; therefore I have doubts that World Gorger would ever see legacy.
I think Black Vise and Mind Twist are safe for legacy too. First Hymn is already more efficient than Mind Twist. Black Vise can only kill a player as fast a flipped delver, but the opponent can lessen the damage by playing cards, unlike delver.
If Mind Twist and Black Vise is that safe those cards would had been unbanned 3 years ago. They are not that safe. Mind Twist has potential of forcing a player to lose 3 lands on the opening hand (therefore mana screwing the opponent). Black Vise is a cheap 1cc artifact that can equally work in a Delver deck! Ethersworn Canonist would be awesome with Black Vise...
Worldgorger gives the player to sneak game 1 (before hate comes in) then draw games 2-X if they try pulling into a winning position. When I played against it in vintage, I think our match slip was signed at something like 1-1-3. Maybe the meta I has shifted enough where it's a safe unban, but I'm really iffy on it.
If Mind Twist and Black Vise is that safe those cards would had been unbanned 3 years ago. They are not that safe. Mind Twist has potential of forcing a player to lose 3 lands on the opening hand (therefore mana screwing the opponent). Black Vise is a cheap 1cc artifact that can equally work in a Delver deck! Ethersworn Canonist would be awesome with Black Vise...
Land Tax was completely safe and took years to unban, so this argument doesn't really hold ground.
If Mind Twist and Black Vise is that safe those cards would had been unbanned 3 years ago. They are not that safe. Mind Twist has potential of forcing a player to lose 3 lands on the opening hand (therefore mana screwing the opponent). Black Vise is a cheap 1cc artifact that can equally work in a Delver deck! Ethersworn Canonist would be awesome with Black Vise...
Land Tax was completely safe and took years to unban, so this argument doesn't really hold ground.
Actually, as I recall when wizards first announced the new ban list in Legacy everybody was shocked that Land Tax was banned. It wasn't that powerful of a card even back then, so it comes to no surprise to me when Land Tax was finally unbanned it did nothing ground breaking in the format.
[quote from="ThePlum" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/178372-legacy-ban-list-discussion-thread-read-op-before?comment=4488"][quote from="Soldier" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/178372-legacy-ban-list-discussion-thread-read-op-before?comment=4485"]If Mind Twist and Black Vise is that safe those cards would had been unbanned 3 years ago. They are not that safe. Mind Twist has potential of forcing a player to lose 3 lands on the opening hand (therefore mana screwing the opponent). Black Vise is a cheap 1cc artifact that can equally work in a Delver deck! Ethersworn Canonist would be awesome with Black Vise...
How would Min Twist make people lose 3 lands out of their opening hand? The only way that I can see that happening is if they cast double Dark Ritual or a Dark Ritual and a Cabal Ritual. In that case, you have spent 3 cards to make your opponent lose 4 cards. And that is in the best case scenario, as Mind Twist is just bad without them. It is just worse than Hymn to Tourach if you are spending 3 cards to make your opponent lose 4 instead of 1 to make your opponent lose 2.
If Mind Twist and Black Vise is that safe those cards would had been unbanned 3 years ago. They are not that safe. Mind Twist has potential of forcing a player to lose 3 lands on the opening hand (therefore mana screwing the opponent). Black Vise is a cheap 1cc artifact that can equally work in a Delver deck! Ethersworn Canonist would be awesome with Black Vise...
Land Tax was completely safe and took years to unban, so this argument doesn't really hold ground.
Actually, as I recall when wizards first announced the new ban list in Legacy everybody was shocked that Land Tax was banned. It wasn't that powerful of a card even back then, so it comes to no surprise to me when Land Tax was finally unbanned it did nothing ground breaking in the format.
The point being that WotC is very slow to take safe cards off the list, and that inaction on the part of WotC does not imply that a card isn't safe for the Legacy meta.
If Mind Twist and Black Vise is that safe those cards would had been unbanned 3 years ago. They are not that safe. Mind Twist has potential of forcing a player to lose 3 lands on the opening hand (therefore mana screwing the opponent). Black Vise is a cheap 1cc artifact that can equally work in a Delver deck! Ethersworn Canonist would be awesome with Black Vise...
Land Tax was completely safe and took years to unban, so this argument doesn't really hold ground.
Actually, as I recall when wizards first announced the new ban list in Legacy everybody was shocked that Land Tax was banned. It wasn't that powerful of a card even back then, so it comes to no surprise to me when Land Tax was finally unbanned it did nothing ground breaking in the format.
The point being that WotC is very slow to take safe cards off the list, and that inaction on the part of WotC does not imply that a card isn't safe for the Legacy meta.
Land Tax was never a threat, it was assumed (by wizards part) that the card could net an awesome card advantage per turn.
As for mind twist and black vise those cards were a threat to the point that players were screaming to quit the game (just like another card that got the players screaming... Mental Misstep)
[quote from="ThePlum" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/178372-legacy-ban-list-discussion-thread-read-op-before?comment=4488"][quote from="Soldier" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/178372-legacy-ban-list-discussion-thread-read-op-before?comment=4485"]If Mind Twist and Black Vise is that safe those cards would had been unbanned 3 years ago. They are not that safe. Mind Twist has potential of forcing a player to lose 3 lands on the opening hand (therefore mana screwing the opponent). Black Vise is a cheap 1cc artifact that can equally work in a Delver deck! Ethersworn Canonist would be awesome with Black Vise...
How would Min Twist make people lose 3 lands out of their opening hand? The only way that I can see that happening is if they cast double Dark Ritual or a Dark Ritual and a Cabal Ritual. In that case, you have spent 3 cards to make your opponent lose 4 cards. And that is in the best case scenario, as Mind Twist is just bad without them. It is just worse than Hymn to Tourach if you are spending 3 cards to make your opponent lose 4 instead of 1 to make your opponent lose 2.
The random effect can be big enough to screw over the players. Sure there is no guarantee that it could knock out the players lands, but if you look at all the other awesome discards effects (besides HYMN) such as Thoughtseize, Duress & Inquisition of Kozilek you'll noticed a theme here (these cards cannot hit the players lands.) Hymn could and so can Mind Twist.
That's an excellent point, ASW. As much as I wouldn't mind something being unbanned, it would probably be something like Earthcraft to speed up combos in a slower meta. That's not necessary right now, as good combos can still run all over a lot of decks in the format. Right now, Legacy is pretty healthy and fun, especially as brewers bring cool stuff to GPs to make the meta ever spicier.
That's an excellent point, ASW. As much as I wouldn't mind something being unbanned, it would probably be something like Earthcraft to speed up combos in a slower meta. That's not necessary right now, as good combos can still run all over a lot of decks in the format. Right now, Legacy is pretty healthy and fun, especially as brewers bring cool stuff to GPs to make the meta ever spicier.
Tying into what someone else was talking about in terms of the RL, their idea being hate/banning for those expensive RL cards, perhaps if something like gaea's cradle were banned, would earthcraft being unbanned compensate for it?
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
That's an excellent point, ASW. As much as I wouldn't mind something being unbanned, it would probably be something like Earthcraft to speed up combos in a slower meta. That's not necessary right now, as good combos can still run all over a lot of decks in the format. Right now, Legacy is pretty healthy and fun, especially as brewers bring cool stuff to GPs to make the meta ever spicier.
Tying into what someone else was talking about in terms of the RL, their idea being hate/banning for those expensive RL cards, perhaps if something like gaea's cradle were banned, would earthcraft being unbanned compensate for it?
I don't think it's necessary and useful to do something like that.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
That's an excellent point, ASW. As much as I wouldn't mind something being unbanned, it would probably be something like Earthcraft to speed up combos in a slower meta. That's not necessary right now, as good combos can still run all over a lot of decks in the format. Right now, Legacy is pretty healthy and fun, especially as brewers bring cool stuff to GPs to make the meta ever spicier.
Tying into what someone else was talking about in terms of the RL, their idea being hate/banning for those expensive RL cards, perhaps if something like gaea's cradle were banned, would earthcraft being unbanned compensate for it?
I don't think it's necessary and useful to do something like that.
Well yeah, optimally we don't try to ban cards that people use and like, it was just a question of for that argument, could earthcraft compensate for the loss.
Given Earthcraft's cost, it could provide a budget alternative to Cradle for elves if unbanned, however that would probably make the combination of having both in the pool too powerful.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Elves wouldn't play Earthcraft. Elves already has access to Heritage Druid and Birchlore Rangers to fill the role of Earthcraft.
Earthcraft's only realistic home imo is in Enchantress. Enchantress can use its namesake and Dryad Arbor to untap the land(s) it has enchanted with Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth, so it's never a totally dead draw. And once you are in a commanding position, or if you just need to go for it or w/e you pair it up with Squirrel Nest and win next turn. Enchantress would really love a clean two card win condition like that.
That's an excellent point, ASW. As much as I wouldn't mind something being unbanned, it would probably be something like Earthcraft to speed up combos in a slower meta. That's not necessary right now, as good combos can still run all over a lot of decks in the format. Right now, Legacy is pretty healthy and fun, especially as brewers bring cool stuff to GPs to make the meta ever spicier.
Tying into what someone else was talking about in terms of the RL, their idea being hate/banning for those expensive RL cards, perhaps if something like gaea's cradle were banned, would earthcraft being unbanned compensate for it?
It is a bad enough idea to ban a card for being on the reserved list. Even worse idea? Trying to "replace" the banned card with ANOTHER card on the reserved list.
Land Tax was never a threat, it was assumed (by wizards part) that the card could net an awesome card advantage per turn.
As for mind twist and black vise those cards were a threat to the point that players were screaming to quit the game (just like another card that got the players screaming... Mental Misstep)
Just like Ali from Cairo was once a threat. Oh wait, that was back in 1994 and the game changes. You can create christmas land scenarios all you want to show how strong mind twist is, but whatever play you use for an example, there is probably a better play involving cards related to storm or a combination of thoughtseize/hymn/liliana.
Every time someone pops in to make a God Hand post about Black Vise or Mind Twist I wonder if they actually play Legacy. There are so many stronger turn 1 plays that in the case of Mind Twist also cost less mana and less cards that these God Hands just leave me scratching my head as to why they're so good. Black Vise will probably be a good card in some decks and see use, Mind Twist is near useless. It will have around zero impact on the meta.
Edit: This ties in a lot with what I see as the purpose of the ban list. I view it as less for simple removing of items from the game, declaring them too powerful, and rather as a buffer, such that things like WorldGorger that during their time would be overpowered, are delayed entering the scene, so that the game can adapt and evolve so that they have less of an impact.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Yeah, I guess that's why Chess never really took off...
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
I consider the World Gorger ban equal to Shahrazad; therefore I have doubts that World Gorger would ever see legacy.
If Mind Twist and Black Vise is that safe those cards would had been unbanned 3 years ago. They are not that safe. Mind Twist has potential of forcing a player to lose 3 lands on the opening hand (therefore mana screwing the opponent). Black Vise is a cheap 1cc artifact that can equally work in a Delver deck! Ethersworn Canonist would be awesome with Black Vise...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
My favourite part in a game of chess is when it's my opponents turn and he is about to put me in check mate and then I tell him it's a draw instead.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Land Tax was completely safe and took years to unban, so this argument doesn't really hold ground.
Actually, as I recall when wizards first announced the new ban list in Legacy everybody was shocked that Land Tax was banned. It wasn't that powerful of a card even back then, so it comes to no surprise to me when Land Tax was finally unbanned it did nothing ground breaking in the format.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
How would Min Twist make people lose 3 lands out of their opening hand? The only way that I can see that happening is if they cast double Dark Ritual or a Dark Ritual and a Cabal Ritual. In that case, you have spent 3 cards to make your opponent lose 4 cards. And that is in the best case scenario, as Mind Twist is just bad without them. It is just worse than Hymn to Tourach if you are spending 3 cards to make your opponent lose 4 instead of 1 to make your opponent lose 2.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The point being that WotC is very slow to take safe cards off the list, and that inaction on the part of WotC does not imply that a card isn't safe for the Legacy meta.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Land Tax was never a threat, it was assumed (by wizards part) that the card could net an awesome card advantage per turn.
As for mind twist and black vise those cards were a threat to the point that players were screaming to quit the game (just like another card that got the players screaming... Mental Misstep)
The random effect can be big enough to screw over the players. Sure there is no guarantee that it could knock out the players lands, but if you look at all the other awesome discards effects (besides HYMN) such as Thoughtseize, Duress & Inquisition of Kozilek you'll noticed a theme here (these cards cannot hit the players lands.) Hymn could and so can Mind Twist.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Back in nineteen ninety what? Kird Ape was once considered OP too. How is this relevant to today's game?
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
But thats just me
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
RRImperial PainterRR
UUUUMonoOmniTellUUUU
BGURWDredgeWRUGB
Tying into what someone else was talking about in terms of the RL, their idea being hate/banning for those expensive RL cards, perhaps if something like gaea's cradle were banned, would earthcraft being unbanned compensate for it?
I don't think it's necessary and useful to do something like that.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Well yeah, optimally we don't try to ban cards that people use and like, it was just a question of for that argument, could earthcraft compensate for the loss.
Given Earthcraft's cost, it could provide a budget alternative to Cradle for elves if unbanned, however that would probably make the combination of having both in the pool too powerful.
Earthcraft's only realistic home imo is in Enchantress. Enchantress can use its namesake and Dryad Arbor to untap the land(s) it has enchanted with Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth, so it's never a totally dead draw. And once you are in a commanding position, or if you just need to go for it or w/e you pair it up with Squirrel Nest and win next turn. Enchantress would really love a clean two card win condition like that.
It is a bad enough idea to ban a card for being on the reserved list. Even worse idea? Trying to "replace" the banned card with ANOTHER card on the reserved list.
Just like Ali from Cairo was once a threat. Oh wait, that was back in 1994 and the game changes. You can create christmas land scenarios all you want to show how strong mind twist is, but whatever play you use for an example, there is probably a better play involving cards related to storm or a combination of thoughtseize/hymn/liliana.
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU