Again, that means islands play the most powerful spell in the format then and as such should be more powerful then brainstorm.
Chains is too expensive of an answer? I'm sorry if you are new to legacy then. Perhaps I should have also been clearer with why I play it to as I don't play it often. If blue decks are the expected majority it's more then worth it's weight and that's when I use it. As blue is even more represented I add the second but no more then that.
I bring up swords, bob, tarmogoyf, etc because your "sound logic" fits those cards as well and in many ways they impact the game as much or more so then brainstorm. In fact chalice of the void is more impactful, beats brainstorm and numerous other cards and decks on its own. Why are you not ranting about an answer for that?
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C'mon folks you all know that Brainstorm is freaking busted card. All decks those have access to blue are using it. Combo, aggro or control you name it. It digs answers, business, combo pieces and it hides stuff and in most of the cases it is pure ancestral recall.
There are zero other cards those you could compare to brainstorm in diverse or power level. I know of course that Brainstorm is very big part of legacy and I enjoy casting it myself but cards like it are seriously pushing non-blue decks out from the format. Removing Brainstorm does not wreck any existing decks in my opinion but gives a fairer chance to decks those are not able to use its support.
Again, that means islands play the most powerful spell in the format then and as such should be more powerful then brainstorm.
Chains is too expensive of an answer? I'm sorry if you are new to legacy then. Perhaps I should have also been clearer with why I play it to as I don't play it often. If blue decks are the expected majority it's more then worth it's weight and that's when I use it. As blue is even more represented I add the second but no more then that.
I bring up swords, bob, tarmogoyf, etc because your "sound logic" fits those cards as well and in many ways they impact the game as much or more so then brainstorm. In fact chalice of the void is more impactful, beats brainstorm and numerous other cards and decks on its own. Why are you not ranting about an answer for that?
I am not asking for an answer to Goyf and other easy to interact with creatures because they are creatures. The simplest thing in the game to kill. In my fish deck I play Dismember, a card everyone can use. It deals with almost all of the issues that creatures offer in this game. Each colour also has its own creature dealing effects. Be that Fight, -1/-1, Damage or exile.
As for Swords, why do answers need more answers? Swords is a narrow card that answers creatures. Bolt is a touch more versatile but in effect the same. What I am saying is a major combo EMABLER needs an answer, not the multitude of already easy to answer cards in the game, nor the cards that are already answers.
On Vise :
I have no strong opinion on Vise. I have my reservation about it, but I do not claim to know what effect it would have. It is a card I have never played with our against.
What I am saying is a major combo EMABLER needs an answer, not the multitude of already easy to answer cards in the game, nor the cards that are already answers.
So you changed the point you were arguing initially?
Now you are saying we need an answer for any search/cantrip/filter effect as they all enable combo? Your argument suggests gitaxian probe needs an answer ASAP as it draws a card and looks at a hand for free thus enabling combo? Cards like duress, while an answer, don't interact with it either. This line of reason only gets worse to as while we can all agree it enables combo, it also enables non combo decks to beat combo. You may note that is different from a card like survival.
Needless to say I don't think you know what you are trying to discuss if you are trying to change what is being discussed.
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I am arguing the same point I always have, that that card needs non blue answers. I said that to start with, I have said that as you try and argue silly points on creatures and answers. My point has not changed. It's not going to change. Brainstorm needs a set of good non blue answers to raise other colours to its level.
Now we can argue what Brainstorm does if you want to, but that's not what I was talking about.
Brainstorm needs an answer because it's one of the defining reasons to play blue over any other colour.
No my comment is that Brainstorm is openly classed as the most powerful card in the format, therefore it needs an answer. By my logic I am saying the most played and powerful card in the format needs to have non blue, non bank breaking answers.
What I am saying is a major combo EMABLER needs an answer, not the multitude of already easy to answer cards in the game, nor the cards that are already answers.
I am arguing the same point I always have, that that card needs non blue answers. I said that to start with, I have said that as you try and argue silly points on creatures and answers. My point has not changed. It's not going to change. Brainstorm needs a set of good non blue answers to raise other colours to its level.
I think the problem here is that you feel all these quotes of your say/mean the same thing. Chains was offered as an answer you called foul because it cost to much money. I brought up a few cards that were also defining in the vein of brainstorm to mesh with your new statement which was then changed to a card that now enables combo. I brought up that gitaxian probe is a free combo enabler that must surely need answers before brainstorm. You decided to go back to the original comment where I will now suggest chains of Mephistopheles again which I suspect will start this cycle again.
Bottom line you changed your story and I am calling you on it.
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Don't touch Brainstorm, but give the other colors access to cheap deck manipulation on a similar level, albeit more niche in application. I say more niche, because to straight up print deck manipulation at Brainstorm's universal powerlevel would have unforeseen ramifications on every format, and I feel as though WotC has learned what getting close to Brainstorm ala Ponder and Brainstorm is dangerous enough.
What I'm referring to is powerful deck manipulation like Green Sun's Zenith and Faithless Looting. They can be built around to be even more powerful than Brainstorm in decks that choose to adhere to their constraints. Similar to how Tezz offers greater reward when built around than even the universal Planeswalkers in Jace and Liliana; he just requires you to make choices in deck building in a similar way that GSZ and Looting do. If we had more cards like that then honestly Brainstorm's omnipresence would be greatly diminished.
I think the problem here is that you feel all these quotes of your say/mean the same thing. Chains was offered as an answer you called foul because it cost to much money. I brought up a few cards that were also defining in the vein of brainstorm to mesh with your new statement which was then changed to a card that now enables combo. I brought up that gitaxian probe is a free combo enabler that must surely need answers before brainstorm. You decided to go back to the original comment where I will now suggest chains of Mephistopheles again which I suspect will start this cycle again.
Bottom line you changed your story and I am calling you on it.
I have not changed my story, I want a non blue answer, to the most powerful card in the game, that is as accessible as the card itself. I have stuck to that. I do not see cards like creatures needing an answer as there is plenty already, at costs that do not prohibit players from gaining access. Cards like Swords play that exact role.
You asked why they do not need answers or more hinted I would seek answers, they are either already answered by cheap and effective cards, or themselves are answers. That's all. I said Brainstorm did not fit into either category. It's an enabler, not an answer.
As for cards like Probe, it's never found itself compared to Recall and it can be stopped with cards like True Believer or Leyline. I am not saying giving blue another card to further it's colour domination was something I liked, but the two are not even close in power.
I do not even understand why you wish to argue with me, you must see blue, on the back of this most powerful and played card, is more appealing to most players. Because it's got everything. All I want to see is a non blue answer to help other colours. Simple really and it's needed. Desperately. Because if one is not provided we will see an ever increasing degradation of the colour pie. With Delver, True-Name, Brainstorm, Force... Soon there will be no reason to play anything other than blue. I would like to see a line drawn somewhere. That line is Brainstorm. Make answers, let the others play in the sandpit and move on.
Logical really.
Anyway, feel free to tell me I am on some double standards trip or something. I am not. I will say the same thing over and over: Don't ban the card, just let others answer it.
Do we even want/need an "Answer" per say? rowtheboat's comment about spreading hand/library manipulation into the other colors seems like a better solution than some "answer" card that would simply and easily invalidate or punish a key card in a such a large swath of legacy decks.
Chains of Mephistopheles is card right now that answers your brainstorm problem. So again I don't know what your issue is. My citing it as an answer only has you changing your statement to one of cost. The answers are there for you right now so don't make it a monetary issue.
Non blue answers for brainstorm exist already.
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I did not change that, I responded right away it's not the answer. You can not say that a 200 dollar card is an answer to the most played 2 dollar one.
It's real easy. Magus of the Mephistopheles. Done.
Then that's a problem for you. I have no trouble saying null rod is an answer for moxen in vintage just as I have no problem saying chains is an answer for brainstorm. Zauzich before me gives thorn of amethyst as an answer for brainstorm that is even colourless. Citing cost as an issue is ignoring that fact that there are answers. It is unfortunate if some are expensive, but then there is no need for an answer to brainstorm either.
Also the magus cycle tends to make a good card worse by making it easier to deal with. That is why chains is also good.
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What mattered was your insistence brainstorm needs answers when it doesn't. And the fact that answers do exist already.
Edit
To tie that in with ban list discussion directly, saying brainstorm requires the presence of cards to answer it is saying that it should be banned.
All the other colours need answers man, they really do. Because it pushes a dominance so hard in one direction that some people start screaming for the a ban. The sad part is I can see where they are coming from. Also, as a red player, I would love to see some love to the non blue colours. I mean Delver, now TNN. Did that really need to happen. Did they both need to be blue?
But that's not here nor their, Brainstorm needs to be a card that other colours can interact with. Feel free to disagree, but I will say that as long as I play this format. If your going to claim that the strongest and most played card in a full format that has found itself compared to a power 9 card does not need answers, then I do not think I can ever agree with you.
Anyway, I have said all I have to say and we are miles off topic, so I will leave this here. Been nice chatting mate.
I think we are within the realm. Like I said if brainstorm needs to have an answer then that is saying it is a problem and could warrant a ban. In fact this is probably some of the most productive talk to come from this thread in a while.
I have other feelings that relate to your opinion too though that doesn't really fit here, but as a quick gloss I feel the presence of the Internet has affected the player base of today negatively. We have a new player in our group for example that will cite "...but I copied my list from SCG" as his justification for his "decisions." With that in mind a white deck can beat a brainstorm deck, but that is not represented in the media directed at the masses so those solutions go overlooked by many.
Not every card needs to create the potential for interaction. In many ways cards that force non interactive play force the creation of interaction as a way to stop it. I do not even joke anymore when I say if white had actual card draw instead of engines it would easily surpass blue in power level. Lotus bloom and ancestral vision have also been compared to their respective p9 equivalent, but like brainstorm are not on that level (brainstorm being the closest with a secondary shuffle effect).
In the end I guess we both agree to disagree.
Cheers mate, we had a good run.
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As a red player, you could have easily played RUG for the past like 3 years. Red is fine. But mono coloured decks aren't good right now unless it's for a reason.
Pox is alright right now because it's a mono coloured deck that disrupts the opponent's manabase and High tide is good because well...it's high tide.
But mono red does suffer from issues yes, for a reason. If we have red a draw engine, why would anyone play anything else? Redundency beyond belief in the colour, only needs to resolve a few spells to win the game, fast clock for a non combo deck and other **** I'm not gonna bother listing off.
If you don't like that a colour is good in magic, it's kind of a moot point. Every colour has it's strengths and weaknesses. Blue may be the strongest colour, but this isn't 2003. GB/x is just as powerful as many of the blue based archetypes in the format right now. If you think brainstorm is broken, just play one of those decks. Liliana+Hymn+Thoughtseize+INK+whatever other stuff you wanna play makes short work of the card advantage those decks try so hard to maintain.
^While I love brainstorm and think both sides of the argument are asinine, i feel the need to point out that a) most blue-based combo and hard control decks completely destroy GBx, and b) the best GBx shell is of course BUG, which also runs Brainstorm.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
What I'm really wondering about is what you mean when you say "answer," exactly. Do you mean something that makes Brainstorm bad, like Chains? Or do you mean a card similar in function to Brainstorm that isn't blue, like Sylvan Library? One of these does not do the job of the other and I'm wondering which you think the format needs.
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Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Thing is that there is no other card such Brainstorm. Maybe 'answer' is kind of a wrong word to describe it but I can see your point (which weaponX truly refuses to say). Is there some other cards those you will instantly play when you're on the color others than Brainstorm? No, there is not. Merfolk and Dredge are like only blue decks those are not running it. You seriously can't compare chains as an opposite card to brainstorm..it is narrow card that is strictly playable in some situations.
We could freely unban Bazaar of Baghdad because we have Wasteland and even Pithing Needle as awesome colorless answers eh? (it was a joke, please don't argue)
I don't understand why Brainstrom needs "answering." Yes, blue decks are over-represented, but so what? Blue has always been the best color in Legacy and even if you ban Brainstorm or somehow print a Brainstorm hoser strong enough to see widespread play it would still be the strongest color (I also fail to see how you would print such a hoser without basically wrecking the format - see Mental Misstep). Brainstorm is also one of the most fun and skill-testing cards in the game, and one of the major reasons people like to play Legacy.
Legacy is an incredibly diverse and awesome format as it is. The reason to ban a card or hose a certain strategy is because that card and/or strategy are making the format stale and/or unfun. You cannot claim that the prevalence of Brainstorm is making any specific strategy "too strong" ("playing blue" is not a strategy, considering that tempo, control & combo are all viable "blue" strategies, not to mention each of these categories contains a number of viable decks that all play differently). On the contrary, I would imagine that the banning or hosing of Brainstorm would make the format less diverse or less fun (for the latter, again see the results of Mental Misstep).
Personally I don't like this direction of design at all. Putting legs on all the good SB hate cards so they can be run main deck makes to hard for anything other than midrange to compete. But I will be mature and not scream for a banning!
Eh, it just means that combo has to run more interactive spells, which was a good idea to begin with. High Tide is just as hosed by Thalia if not moreso than this, and you just need to counter it or find a bounce spell at an opportune time.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
It even better then chains effect-wise, but weaker as a creature. It was a novelty making creature versions of spells, but this is starting to get silly.
Is it possible to ban designers from the game? I think I'm slowly moving to that idea.
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Chains is too expensive of an answer? I'm sorry if you are new to legacy then. Perhaps I should have also been clearer with why I play it to as I don't play it often. If blue decks are the expected majority it's more then worth it's weight and that's when I use it. As blue is even more represented I add the second but no more then that.
I bring up swords, bob, tarmogoyf, etc because your "sound logic" fits those cards as well and in many ways they impact the game as much or more so then brainstorm. In fact chalice of the void is more impactful, beats brainstorm and numerous other cards and decks on its own. Why are you not ranting about an answer for that?
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
There are zero other cards those you could compare to brainstorm in diverse or power level. I know of course that Brainstorm is very big part of legacy and I enjoy casting it myself but cards like it are seriously pushing non-blue decks out from the format. Removing Brainstorm does not wreck any existing decks in my opinion but gives a fairer chance to decks those are not able to use its support.
Modern
WUBRG
I am not asking for an answer to Goyf and other easy to interact with creatures because they are creatures. The simplest thing in the game to kill. In my fish deck I play Dismember, a card everyone can use. It deals with almost all of the issues that creatures offer in this game. Each colour also has its own creature dealing effects. Be that Fight, -1/-1, Damage or exile.
As for Swords, why do answers need more answers? Swords is a narrow card that answers creatures. Bolt is a touch more versatile but in effect the same. What I am saying is a major combo EMABLER needs an answer, not the multitude of already easy to answer cards in the game, nor the cards that are already answers.
On Vise :
I have no strong opinion on Vise. I have my reservation about it, but I do not claim to know what effect it would have. It is a card I have never played with our against.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
So you changed the point you were arguing initially?
Now you are saying we need an answer for any search/cantrip/filter effect as they all enable combo? Your argument suggests gitaxian probe needs an answer ASAP as it draws a card and looks at a hand for free thus enabling combo? Cards like duress, while an answer, don't interact with it either. This line of reason only gets worse to as while we can all agree it enables combo, it also enables non combo decks to beat combo. You may note that is different from a card like survival.
Needless to say I don't think you know what you are trying to discuss if you are trying to change what is being discussed.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Now we can argue what Brainstorm does if you want to, but that's not what I was talking about.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
I think the problem here is that you feel all these quotes of your say/mean the same thing. Chains was offered as an answer you called foul because it cost to much money. I brought up a few cards that were also defining in the vein of brainstorm to mesh with your new statement which was then changed to a card that now enables combo. I brought up that gitaxian probe is a free combo enabler that must surely need answers before brainstorm. You decided to go back to the original comment where I will now suggest chains of Mephistopheles again which I suspect will start this cycle again.
Bottom line you changed your story and I am calling you on it.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
What I'm referring to is powerful deck manipulation like Green Sun's Zenith and Faithless Looting. They can be built around to be even more powerful than Brainstorm in decks that choose to adhere to their constraints. Similar to how Tezz offers greater reward when built around than even the universal Planeswalkers in Jace and Liliana; he just requires you to make choices in deck building in a similar way that GSZ and Looting do. If we had more cards like that then honestly Brainstorm's omnipresence would be greatly diminished.
I have not changed my story, I want a non blue answer, to the most powerful card in the game, that is as accessible as the card itself. I have stuck to that. I do not see cards like creatures needing an answer as there is plenty already, at costs that do not prohibit players from gaining access. Cards like Swords play that exact role.
You asked why they do not need answers or more hinted I would seek answers, they are either already answered by cheap and effective cards, or themselves are answers. That's all. I said Brainstorm did not fit into either category. It's an enabler, not an answer.
As for cards like Probe, it's never found itself compared to Recall and it can be stopped with cards like True Believer or Leyline. I am not saying giving blue another card to further it's colour domination was something I liked, but the two are not even close in power.
I do not even understand why you wish to argue with me, you must see blue, on the back of this most powerful and played card, is more appealing to most players. Because it's got everything. All I want to see is a non blue answer to help other colours. Simple really and it's needed. Desperately. Because if one is not provided we will see an ever increasing degradation of the colour pie. With Delver, True-Name, Brainstorm, Force... Soon there will be no reason to play anything other than blue. I would like to see a line drawn somewhere. That line is Brainstorm. Make answers, let the others play in the sandpit and move on.
Logical really.
Anyway, feel free to tell me I am on some double standards trip or something. I am not. I will say the same thing over and over: Don't ban the card, just let others answer it.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
It can punish shuffle effects, without which Brainstorm is mediocre at best.
What about Leonin Arbiter?
Dice_Bag did you have anything in mind? A Sphere of Resistance / Thorn of Amethyst type card that costs 1 and only hits instants? An instant speed temporary Chains of Mephistopheles effect?
Do we even want/need an "Answer" per say? rowtheboat's comment about spreading hand/library manipulation into the other colors seems like a better solution than some "answer" card that would simply and easily invalidate or punish a key card in a such a large swath of legacy decks.
Non blue answers for brainstorm exist already.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
It's real easy. Magus of the Mephistopheles. Done.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Also the magus cycle tends to make a good card worse by making it easier to deal with. That is why chains is also good.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I still so not know why you seam intent to argue with me, we both agree the card should not be banned, from that point on, what else really matters?
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Edit
To tie that in with ban list discussion directly, saying brainstorm requires the presence of cards to answer it is saying that it should be banned.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
But that's not here nor their, Brainstorm needs to be a card that other colours can interact with. Feel free to disagree, but I will say that as long as I play this format. If your going to claim that the strongest and most played card in a full format that has found itself compared to a power 9 card does not need answers, then I do not think I can ever agree with you.
Anyway, I have said all I have to say and we are miles off topic, so I will leave this here. Been nice chatting mate.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
I have other feelings that relate to your opinion too though that doesn't really fit here, but as a quick gloss I feel the presence of the Internet has affected the player base of today negatively. We have a new player in our group for example that will cite "...but I copied my list from SCG" as his justification for his "decisions." With that in mind a white deck can beat a brainstorm deck, but that is not represented in the media directed at the masses so those solutions go overlooked by many.
Not every card needs to create the potential for interaction. In many ways cards that force non interactive play force the creation of interaction as a way to stop it. I do not even joke anymore when I say if white had actual card draw instead of engines it would easily surpass blue in power level. Lotus bloom and ancestral vision have also been compared to their respective p9 equivalent, but like brainstorm are not on that level (brainstorm being the closest with a secondary shuffle effect).
In the end I guess we both agree to disagree.
Cheers mate, we had a good run.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Pox is alright right now because it's a mono coloured deck that disrupts the opponent's manabase and High tide is good because well...it's high tide.
But mono red does suffer from issues yes, for a reason. If we have red a draw engine, why would anyone play anything else? Redundency beyond belief in the colour, only needs to resolve a few spells to win the game, fast clock for a non combo deck and other **** I'm not gonna bother listing off.
If you don't like that a colour is good in magic, it's kind of a moot point. Every colour has it's strengths and weaknesses. Blue may be the strongest colour, but this isn't 2003. GB/x is just as powerful as many of the blue based archetypes in the format right now. If you think brainstorm is broken, just play one of those decks. Liliana+Hymn+Thoughtseize+INK+whatever other stuff you wanna play makes short work of the card advantage those decks try so hard to maintain.
Adapt, don't complain.
Legacy:
:symg::symb::symg:Pox:symg::symb::symg:
Edh:
:symg::symw::symu:Angus Mackenzie:symg::symw::symu:
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
We could freely unban Bazaar of Baghdad because we have Wasteland and even Pithing Needle as awesome colorless answers eh? (it was a joke, please don't argue)
Modern
WUBRG
Legacy is an incredibly diverse and awesome format as it is. The reason to ban a card or hose a certain strategy is because that card and/or strategy are making the format stale and/or unfun. You cannot claim that the prevalence of Brainstorm is making any specific strategy "too strong" ("playing blue" is not a strategy, considering that tempo, control & combo are all viable "blue" strategies, not to mention each of these categories contains a number of viable decks that all play differently). On the contrary, I would imagine that the banning or hosing of Brainstorm would make the format less diverse or less fun (for the latter, again see the results of Mental Misstep).
Lightning bolt, swords to plowshares, stoneforge mystic, dark confidant, deathrite shaman, abrupt decay, etc...
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
You got your hatebear:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1521747_10152162583844976_746426608_n.jpg
Personally I don't like this direction of design at all. Putting legs on all the good SB hate cards so they can be run main deck makes to hard for anything other than midrange to compete. But I will be mature and not scream for a banning!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Is it possible to ban designers from the game? I think I'm slowly moving to that idea.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord