Pay 4 life for misstep instead of 2? Oh darn the tempo gained is still insurmountable as they misstep your turn 1 play, their misstep resolves, and you gain a turn. It would have been banned still.
Show and tell is the least fun card in the entire format. Oops I turn 2'ed griselbrand, guess I win. Show and telled emrakul, I had no answer, and lost. Cool deck. Every time I play against show and tell it isn't remotely interesting and makes me want to throw my deck across the room as they turn 2 griselbrand with FoW backup. Turn 2 decks are supposed to be banned in legacy yet this one isn't because apparently creatures are fair oh wait they aren't when they wipe out the opponents board or have yawgmoth's bargain attached/invalidate the opponent's entire strategy as they themselves don't have a gameplan that is more powerful than show and tells.
Brainstorm is not the most skill intensive card in legacy. Doomsday is. Then cabal therapy. I tank a lot more when I blind therapy in comparison to blind brainstorm/when you don't know what your opponent is playing but then you're misusing the card as it is generally impossible to brainstorm optimally when you don't know what your opponent is playing/what cards suck and what cards are amazing.
So the problem with Mental Misstep was that it was too strong in general, not that it could counter itself and was even better in blue decks than in other decks?
The problem with misstep is that every single deck played the card. It answering itself didn't really matter much at all (force of will answers itself but that's not why the card see's play.) What did matter is that all the decks played 4 missteps/it warped the metagame and made is quite stagnant (stoneblade and NO RUG were the top decks when it was banned.) Another problem that the card was about to cause was misstep + snapcaster mage. Snapcaster mage misstep.dec would have been the most absurd control deck legacy had ever seen and it would shut out all the other decks.
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it's banned because it hits like half of the legacy format and hardcounters them! Here are "some" cards from the top of my head which MM hits, which are played.
And I think there are even more which I have forgotten. So every deck played it to counter some obvious threats. I mean if this isn't format warping I don't know what is...
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Even if you can somehow argue that Misstep wasn't making the metagame stagnant and warped around its existence, you really wouldn't have been able to argue in its favor had it lasted long enough to see play alongside Snapcaster Mage. Bread Connoisseur is right, Misstep + Snapcaster would have been absolutely absurd.
Sort of like arguing in favor of Mystical Tutor. At the time you could come up with a good argument, sure, but there would be no way in hell you could justify Mystical Tutor alongside the Miracle mechanic had it lasted a bit longer. That would have also broke the format in half.
For what it's worth misstep can not counter extirpate because of split second. In the end though every deck being able to play it is a problem because of what it does.
I'll bite on this one too.
Sort of like arguing in favor of Mystical Tutor. At the time you could come up with a good argument, sure, but there would be no way in hell you could justify Mystical Tutor alongside the Miracle mechanic had it lasted a bit longer. That would have also broke the format in half.
If mystical was going to break the format open because of miracles, how come no one played personal tutor? Functionally it had the same effect albeit slower, but the result should be the same, miracle draw gets set up.
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If mystical was going to break the format open because of miracles, how come no one played personal tutor? Functionally it had the same effect albeit slower, but the result should be the same, miracle draw gets set up.
It's because it's Instant Speed. Not because it's "Slower"
A card that costs 1U and is functionally identical to Mystical Tutor would still see play over Personal Tutor.
Because it's an Instant, and what's better than tutoring for Miracles?
Being able to play them on your opponents turn with SDT.
If mystical was going to break the format open because of miracles, how come no one played personal tutor? Functionally it had the same effect albeit slower, but the result should be the same, miracle draw gets set up.
There is a *huge* difference between instant and sorcery, especially with regards to a tutor. Being able to tutor for Terminus at instant speed lets you wait until you're sure you'll get the best value from it. The fact that it also grabs Swords, Force, Counterspell, etc. is just gravy. And that's just in Miracles. Don't forget that it also was played in Storm (where it's virtually any piece you need) and Reanimator (where it's virtually any piece you need).
I most definitely did not forget where mystical saw play. It was more of a doubt that the interaction between mystical tutor ard miracles is what would break the format open when storm and reanimator for instance would also use it.
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For what it's worth misstep can not counter extirpate because of split second. In the end though every deck being able to play it is a problem because of what it does.
I'll bite on this one too.
If mystical was going to break the format open because of miracles, how come no one played personal tutor? Functionally it had the same effect albeit slower, but the result should be the same, miracle draw gets set up.
Because P. Tutor isn't even remotely functionally equivelant to M. Tutor in regards to miracle mechanic? It triggers on your first card drawn of the turn; meaning that at best P. Tutor can be used on your turn's main phase to set-up what you hope will get your opponent, but you still have to reveal the card and either generate an instant speed draw or wait until your next draw-phase.
all become massively playable when you can play tutor on your opp's EoT step, in resp. to an action your opponent takes (or doesn't take), during your upkeep, etc. There's a much, much narrow window for your opponent to interact, deal with, or search for an answer to your revealed miracle when you can fire it instant speed - even in resp. to a SDT activation. It's not even close.
I mean, the gravy of becoming that FoW in resp. to your opponent's hellbent Infernal Tutor makes a huge difference too.
I mean, why wouldn't you play:
Mystical Miracles
Mystical Reanimator
or
Mystical Storm
if mystical was legal? Aggro and Mid-range would vanish from the meta as miracles would win the long-game and reanimator/storm would simply power through with consistent t2/t3 protected or fight-through-your-hate-or-permision wins.
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Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
I used to think S&T needed a ban, but when you think about it, it's exactly the type of combo deck that Wizards wants to encourage people to play. S&T goes off on turn 3, which is enough time to play your hate cards, it doesn't promote slow or looping play where the opponent sits idly by like High Tide/Four Horsemen/Eggs do, and it usually wins by beating the opponent down with creatures instead of infinite loops (although Omni-Tell kills are an exception).
The downside of S&T is that it restricts the design of Timmy cards, but every "Put target permanent from your hand into play" card does that.
On the other hand, the Oops All Spells creatures are exactly one new card away from a ban. If OAS gets any more consistent due to new cards being printed, its incredibly high turn 1 kill percentage would make it an excellent candidate for a ban. On the play, there are no Legacy-playable cards that can interact with it other than Force of Will and Surgical Extraction. Until those cards are printed, the deck is safe, of course.
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Show and tell is the least fun card in the entire format. Oops I turn 2'ed griselbrand, guess I win. Show and telled emrakul, I had no answer, and lost. Cool deck. Every time I play against show and tell it isn't remotely interesting and makes me want to throw my deck across the room as they turn 2 griselbrand with FoW backup.
S&T decks do not consistently draw three mana, S&T, FOW, and a target in their first eight or nine cards! All the anecdotes in the world will not change the laws of probability. Either your opponents are cheating, you have very little actual experience, you are lying, or you have ignored/forgotten some of your games.
Turn 2 decks are supposed to be banned in legacy yet this one isn't...
Yeah, WotC said something like that when they were trying to justify the BS turn fur rule in Modern. Whatever they meant, they cleanly didn't mean that decks which can goldfish a turn two win should be banned. Cheerios, Ops, Spanish Inquisition, and Belcher can all do that and none of them have been banned! Maybe they meant that a deck which can win on turn two consistently against a field of tier Legacy decks should be banned?
WotC articles are first and foremost commercials. Their objective is not to actually inform the customer base, but rather to instil us with a sense of confidence. In this case, pretending there is a turn three rule in Legacy made a turn four rule in Modern seem almost reasonable.
Seriously, when has any card in Legacy ever been banned because a deck was considered "too fast" despite not dominating the meta? Note that in Modern cards have in fact been banned to curb decks which were too fast but not too powerful.
Note that the turn 3 combo decks tend to do better than the turn 2 combo decks. The Turn 3 decks- Sneak & Show, Elves, and ANT- have a fair number of T8s, while the faster decks generally don't. When's the last time Spanish Inquisition or Tin Fins won anything?
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Most of the time there are zero spanish inquisitions in the field. Flash was a turn 2 combo deck, it got banhammered the **** out of existence. I don't consider all spells a real deck as it loses to itself so many times it isn't funny (I've played against it and the deck is an absolute joke.) Mystical tutor enabled turn 2 combo decks in legacy. It got banned as a result. As for SnT not always combo'ing off turn 2, sure. Flash didn't always combo off on turn 2 either or mystical ANT. It still does so quite a bit due to how many redundant pieces it has of combo pieces and the cantrips to find them. Would legacy be better off without show and tell? Hell yes. Same goes for griselbrand, a card WotC should have never printed in the first place (necro attempt #3, whoops 1 life for 1 card drawn is still broken what a surprise :rolleyes:)
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1 life for 1 card is still different from 7 life for 7 cards. Just because those numbers can be mathematically reduced to the same does not make them the same.
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If you just choose to ignore the times when Griselbrand can't draw cards because your at 10 (against Bolt decks) or less life, then yeah it's basically the same as 1 for 1
It's not relevant all the time, but it's definitely relevant enough of the time.
As for SnT not always combo'ing off turn 2, sure. Flash didn't always combo off on turn 2 either...
Are you seriously trying to compare S&T decks with Flash Hulk? Are you trolling? Did you even play in the (brief) flash era? Is this a joke?
Flash Hulk was probably the most broken tournament deck since there was no four card limit. WotC didn't even wait for the banning schedule - it was emergency banned because it was absolutely obscene and near unbeatable.
As for speed, Flash averaged fewer than two turns, where S&T averages more than two turns. Flash was also just much harder to answer.
Are you seriously trying to compare S&T decks with Flash Hulk? Are you trolling? Did you even play in the (brief) flash era? Is this a joke?
Flash Hulk was probably the most broken tournament deck since there was no four card limit. WotC didn't even wait for the banning schedule - it was emergency banned because it was absolutely obscene and near unbeatable.
As for speed, Flash averaged fewer than two turns, where S&T averages more than two turns. Flash was also just much harder to answer.
No four card limit? What on earth are you talking about? You could play 4 flash and no more. 4 protean hulk. 4 mystical tutor. 4 Force of will. No more. The time where you could play more than 4 copies of a card was pretty shortlived and back in those days flash didn't exist, protean hulk didn't exist, and shivan dragon was a powerhouse card. Oh and comparing it to flash is perfectly valid, both cards put a card into play. Both are blue. The major difference between the two is that flash costs 1U and is an instant while show and tell is 2U and a sorcery as well as being able to put in artifacts, enchantments, and lands as well as creatures.
Doomsday isn't relevant? How? I thought we were talking about the card that is the hardest to resolve in the format and doomsday takes the cake by a gigantic margin. I don't care how much play doomsday see's, I care about how hard it is to resolve it optimally and the answer is that it is quite difficult to resolve optimally in most cases. Cabal therapy can name over 10,000 different magic cards. Brainstorm you draw 3 and put the 2 worst back, it is way overrated how hard it is to resolve brainstorm. From time to time it is difficult but usually it is quite easy to veterans of the format like myself. As for when I blind therapy I tank quite a bit or even if I know my opponents deck I will tank as it's hard to tell whether to name brainstorm, force of will, tarmogoyf, etc. etc. when the opponent can play at most 4 of each of those cards.
7:7 = 1:1. Maybe you didn't take math class but that is the same ratio. Boohoo you have to pay in increments of 7 instead of 1. Against bolt decks we've been over this approximately a million times bolt decks cannot beat a 7/7 flying lifelinker (what a surprise that canadian thresh, burn, bUrg, zoo, etc. etc. can't beat a 7/7 flying lifelinker I mean they're trying to attack you in order to win and its hard to win when a player gains 7 life each turn.)
You know what show and tell into griselbrand is almost exactly like? Wheel of fortune and timetwister. If I recall correctly both of those cards are banned in legacy because 2U: Draw 7 cards is absurd. Oh and you can choose to draw 7 more cards as well. 2U: Draw 14. Right. That's fair. Sounds like something that shouldn't be legal. Or we can do it the other way, entomb + reanimate. BB: Draw 7 cards. Because 2 mana to draw 7 is so much fairer in comparison to 2U: Draw 7.
No, I did not play during the flash period where flash got errata'ed a month before to original functionality. But who cares? I read the coverage, I saw what the people who top 8'ed GP Flash thought. There was ONE person in that top 8 who thought flash should be banned and that was the winner of the tournament, Steve Sadin playing CBFlash. All the other people said maybe, who cares, probably, or no because apparently turn 2 flash is no more broken than turn 1 lackey. Flash and show and tell are directly comparable because they are both broken combo enablers that are blue, are both 2 card combo's, and both effectively win on the spot when they resolve 99% of the time. Yeah yeah it was emergency banned. So was memory jar and mind's desire. All that matters is this: whether a card is banned or not banned. It doesn't matter when it got banned. Yawgmoth's will for example, the most busted card in the game, lasted an entire year before it got banned in legacy, extended, and restricted in vintage. A full year where it could be played as a 4 of in all those formats. Right.
But yeah keep trying to compete with 7/7 flying lifelink bargain for 2U or (1)BB/U. Griselbrand and show and tell are the most powerful cards in legacy. Compare it to storm combo. Storm combo revolves around powerful 2 card combos like LED + infernal tutor/has to go all in. Show and tell doesn't resolve? Still have a grip of cards to go show and tell or sneak attack the next turn. Not to mention 3 mana < 7 mana, as most storm engines require 7 or more starting mana due to infernal tutor adding 2 to the cost of said engine. Doomsday requires 6+ starting mana typically but only a handful of people play doomsday so...yeah.
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No four card limit is a part of the very early days of magic. The deck of the day was full of Lotus and Recall. It had a single Channel and a Single Fireball. You could in effect draw out your deck in a turn, find your combo and kill. It's the reason we now have a limit on the amount of cards that can be used in a deck.
Bonus fact: Relentless Rats is actually a hold off from these days. When the rules changed, Plague Rat lost most of his power. So later on Relentless was printed to let that deck continue.
1 life for 1 card is still different from 7 life for 7 cards. Just because those numbers can be mathematically reduced to the same does not make them the same.
Quote from "Bread Connoisseur" »
Maybe you didn't take math class but that is the same ratio. Boohoo you have to pay in increments of 7 instead of 1.
You are at 6 life, please tell me how they are the same.
You are at 13 life, please tell me how they are the same
Even comparing show and tell to flash is ludicrous. We both get something is not the same as I only get something.
No, I definitely have math on my side, I recommend English for you so that you can read both posts and cards.
Well yes Weapon x is absolutely right because with 6 life I still get 5 cards from Bargain and none from Griselbrand.
So this means it is not the same.
And Flash also is not comparable to S&T because it is Instant and means you can go off end of turn of your opponent and don't have to wait till your turn.
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
No four card limit is a part of the very early days of magic. The deck of the day was full of Lotus and Recall. It had a single Channel and a Single Fireball. You could in effect draw out your deck in a turn, find your combo and kill. It's the reason we now have a limit on the amount of cards that can be used in a deck.
Bonus fact: Relentless Rats is actually a hold off from these days. When the rules changed, Plague Rat lost most of his power. So later on Relentless was printed to let that deck continue.
Seems like this problem could have been solved by banning lotus/recall.
Would a no card limit rule break the current legacy without these power 9 cards?
Seems like this problem could have been solved by banning lotus/recall.
Would a no card limit rule break the current legacy without these power 9 cards?
Almost certainly, I cant imagine certain combo decks being fair with a ton of redundant pieces plus all of their filtering spells could be brainstorm. I imagine a lot would have to be banned to make the no card limit rule fair.
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
So the problem with Mental Misstep was that it was too strong in general, not that it could counter itself and was even better in blue decks than in other decks?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Currently Playing:
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it's banned because it hits like half of the legacy format and hardcounters them! Here are "some" cards from the top of my head which MM hits, which are played.
- Aether Vial
- Enlightened tutor
- Worldly Tutor
- Glimpse of nature
- Deathrite Shaman
- Mother of runes
- Swords to Plowshares
- Brainstorm
- Ponder
- Preordain
- High tide
- Candelabra of Tawnos
- Flusterstorm
- Pithing needle
- Goblin lackey
- Goblin Guide
- Lightning Bolt
- Lava Spike
- Chain Lightning
- Goblin Welder
- Sensei's Divining top
- Thoughtseize
- Inquisition of Kozilek
- Duress
- Dark Ritual
- Culling the Weak
- Gravecrawler
- Grafdigger's cage
- Stifle
- Cabal therapy
- Entomb
- Reanimate
- Delver of Secrets
- Grindstone
- Careful Study
- Faithless Looting
- Putrid Imp
- Innocent Blood
- Mental Misstep
- Spell Pierce
- Spell Snare
- Springleaf Drum
- Dispatch
- Signal Pest
- Llanowar Elves
- Fyndhorn Elves
- Nettle Sentinel
- Crop Rotation
- Veteran Explorer
- Birchlore Rangers
- Wirewood Symbiote
- Heritage Druid
- Nimble Mongoose
- Extirpate
- Surgical Extraction
55 cardsAnd I think there are even more which I have forgotten. So every deck played it to counter some obvious threats. I mean if this isn't format warping I don't know what is...
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Sort of like arguing in favor of Mystical Tutor. At the time you could come up with a good argument, sure, but there would be no way in hell you could justify Mystical Tutor alongside the Miracle mechanic had it lasted a bit longer. That would have also broke the format in half.
For what it's worth misstep can not counter extirpate because of split second. In the end though every deck being able to play it is a problem because of what it does.
I'll bite on this one too.
If mystical was going to break the format open because of miracles, how come no one played personal tutor? Functionally it had the same effect albeit slower, but the result should be the same, miracle draw gets set up.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
It's because it's Instant Speed. Not because it's "Slower"
A card that costs 1U and is functionally identical to Mystical Tutor would still see play over Personal Tutor.
Because it's an Instant, and what's better than tutoring for Miracles?
Being able to play them on your opponents turn with SDT.
Seriously.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
There is a *huge* difference between instant and sorcery, especially with regards to a tutor. Being able to tutor for Terminus at instant speed lets you wait until you're sure you'll get the best value from it. The fact that it also grabs Swords, Force, Counterspell, etc. is just gravy. And that's just in Miracles. Don't forget that it also was played in Storm (where it's virtually any piece you need) and Reanimator (where it's virtually any piece you need).
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Because P. Tutor isn't even remotely functionally equivelant to M. Tutor in regards to miracle mechanic? It triggers on your first card drawn of the turn; meaning that at best P. Tutor can be used on your turn's main phase to set-up what you hope will get your opponent, but you still have to reveal the card and either generate an instant speed draw or wait until your next draw-phase.
and even Reforge the Soul
all become massively playable when you can play tutor on your opp's EoT step, in resp. to an action your opponent takes (or doesn't take), during your upkeep, etc. There's a much, much narrow window for your opponent to interact, deal with, or search for an answer to your revealed miracle when you can fire it instant speed - even in resp. to a SDT activation. It's not even close.
I mean, the gravy of becoming that FoW in resp. to your opponent's hellbent Infernal Tutor makes a huge difference too.
I mean, why wouldn't you play:
Mystical Miracles
Mystical Reanimator
or
Mystical Storm
if mystical was legal? Aggro and Mid-range would vanish from the meta as miracles would win the long-game and reanimator/storm would simply power through with consistent t2/t3 protected or fight-through-your-hate-or-permision wins.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
The downside of S&T is that it restricts the design of Timmy cards, but every "Put target permanent from your hand into play" card does that.
On the other hand, the Oops All Spells creatures are exactly one new card away from a ban. If OAS gets any more consistent due to new cards being printed, its incredibly high turn 1 kill percentage would make it an excellent candidate for a ban. On the play, there are no Legacy-playable cards that can interact with it other than Force of Will and Surgical Extraction. Until those cards are printed, the deck is safe, of course.
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S&T decks do not consistently draw three mana, S&T, FOW, and a target in their first eight or nine cards! All the anecdotes in the world will not change the laws of probability. Either your opponents are cheating, you have very little actual experience, you are lying, or you have ignored/forgotten some of your games.
Yeah, WotC said something like that when they were trying to justify the BS turn fur rule in Modern. Whatever they meant, they cleanly didn't mean that decks which can goldfish a turn two win should be banned. Cheerios, Ops, Spanish Inquisition, and Belcher can all do that and none of them have been banned! Maybe they meant that a deck which can win on turn two consistently against a field of tier Legacy decks should be banned?
WotC articles are first and foremost commercials. Their objective is not to actually inform the customer base, but rather to instil us with a sense of confidence. In this case, pretending there is a turn three rule in Legacy made a turn four rule in Modern seem almost reasonable.
Seriously, when has any card in Legacy ever been banned because a deck was considered "too fast" despite not dominating the meta? Note that in Modern cards have in fact been banned to curb decks which were too fast but not too powerful.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Currently Playing:
Retired
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
It's not relevant all the time, but it's definitely relevant enough of the time.
Are you seriously trying to compare S&T decks with Flash Hulk? Are you trolling? Did you even play in the (brief) flash era? Is this a joke?
Flash Hulk was probably the most broken tournament deck since there was no four card limit. WotC didn't even wait for the banning schedule - it was emergency banned because it was absolutely obscene and near unbeatable.
As for speed, Flash averaged fewer than two turns, where S&T averages more than two turns. Flash was also just much harder to answer.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
No four card limit? What on earth are you talking about? You could play 4 flash and no more. 4 protean hulk. 4 mystical tutor. 4 Force of will. No more. The time where you could play more than 4 copies of a card was pretty shortlived and back in those days flash didn't exist, protean hulk didn't exist, and shivan dragon was a powerhouse card. Oh and comparing it to flash is perfectly valid, both cards put a card into play. Both are blue. The major difference between the two is that flash costs 1U and is an instant while show and tell is 2U and a sorcery as well as being able to put in artifacts, enchantments, and lands as well as creatures.
Doomsday isn't relevant? How? I thought we were talking about the card that is the hardest to resolve in the format and doomsday takes the cake by a gigantic margin. I don't care how much play doomsday see's, I care about how hard it is to resolve it optimally and the answer is that it is quite difficult to resolve optimally in most cases. Cabal therapy can name over 10,000 different magic cards. Brainstorm you draw 3 and put the 2 worst back, it is way overrated how hard it is to resolve brainstorm. From time to time it is difficult but usually it is quite easy to veterans of the format like myself. As for when I blind therapy I tank quite a bit or even if I know my opponents deck I will tank as it's hard to tell whether to name brainstorm, force of will, tarmogoyf, etc. etc. when the opponent can play at most 4 of each of those cards.
7:7 = 1:1. Maybe you didn't take math class but that is the same ratio. Boohoo you have to pay in increments of 7 instead of 1. Against bolt decks we've been over this approximately a million times bolt decks cannot beat a 7/7 flying lifelinker (what a surprise that canadian thresh, burn, bUrg, zoo, etc. etc. can't beat a 7/7 flying lifelinker I mean they're trying to attack you in order to win and its hard to win when a player gains 7 life each turn.)
You know what show and tell into griselbrand is almost exactly like? Wheel of fortune and timetwister. If I recall correctly both of those cards are banned in legacy because 2U: Draw 7 cards is absurd. Oh and you can choose to draw 7 more cards as well. 2U: Draw 14. Right. That's fair. Sounds like something that shouldn't be legal. Or we can do it the other way, entomb + reanimate. BB: Draw 7 cards. Because 2 mana to draw 7 is so much fairer in comparison to 2U: Draw 7.
No, I did not play during the flash period where flash got errata'ed a month before to original functionality. But who cares? I read the coverage, I saw what the people who top 8'ed GP Flash thought. There was ONE person in that top 8 who thought flash should be banned and that was the winner of the tournament, Steve Sadin playing CBFlash. All the other people said maybe, who cares, probably, or no because apparently turn 2 flash is no more broken than turn 1 lackey. Flash and show and tell are directly comparable because they are both broken combo enablers that are blue, are both 2 card combo's, and both effectively win on the spot when they resolve 99% of the time. Yeah yeah it was emergency banned. So was memory jar and mind's desire. All that matters is this: whether a card is banned or not banned. It doesn't matter when it got banned. Yawgmoth's will for example, the most busted card in the game, lasted an entire year before it got banned in legacy, extended, and restricted in vintage. A full year where it could be played as a 4 of in all those formats. Right.
But yeah keep trying to compete with 7/7 flying lifelink bargain for 2U or (1)BB/U. Griselbrand and show and tell are the most powerful cards in legacy. Compare it to storm combo. Storm combo revolves around powerful 2 card combos like LED + infernal tutor/has to go all in. Show and tell doesn't resolve? Still have a grip of cards to go show and tell or sneak attack the next turn. Not to mention 3 mana < 7 mana, as most storm engines require 7 or more starting mana due to infernal tutor adding 2 to the cost of said engine. Doomsday requires 6+ starting mana typically but only a handful of people play doomsday so...yeah.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Bonus fact: Relentless Rats is actually a hold off from these days. When the rules changed, Plague Rat lost most of his power. So later on Relentless was printed to let that deck continue.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
You are at 6 life, please tell me how they are the same.
You are at 13 life, please tell me how they are the same
Even comparing show and tell to flash is ludicrous. We both get something is not the same as I only get something.
No, I definitely have math on my side, I recommend English for you so that you can read both posts and cards.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
So this means it is not the same.
And Flash also is not comparable to S&T because it is Instant and means you can go off end of turn of your opponent and don't have to wait till your turn.
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Seems like this problem could have been solved by banning lotus/recall.
Would a no card limit rule break the current legacy without these power 9 cards?
So we can have an 8 DR, 8 LED combo shell - no thank you.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Almost certainly, I cant imagine certain combo decks being fair with a ton of redundant pieces plus all of their filtering spells could be brainstorm. I imagine a lot would have to be banned to make the no card limit rule fair.
On the other hand I can run 15 leyline of sanctity in my sideboard