I don't think it's strong enough to warp the format around it, especially with the printing of new Storm hate as of late to join what's been long available.
We have Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, and Ethersworn Canonist, Rule of Law, Arcane Laboratory, etc. which all need to be answered before being able to go off. We also have more cheap disruption available nowadays than what was available back in the day - not only do we have classics like FoW, Daze, Counterspell, and Stifle for the storm trigger itself, there's options like Counterbalance + Top, Spell Pierce, Mindbreak Trap, and Flusterstorm. Liliana also now rounds out discard suites in a ton of popular decks, with the very effective Thoughtseize + Hymn + Liliana curve which is a beating against combo decks. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that any combo deck could truly warp the meta with how the format stands right now without a clearly overpowered tutor available to it. I think you need something like Mystical Tutor or Survival to be available to really dominate - tutors that not only find your combo but find protection, no questions asked. The tutors that we have in the format have heavy enough restrictions (be it through cmc, being sideboard reliant, or having to jump through hoops), and cantrip engines aren't nearly as efficient as they often take several turns, or just whiff.
There definitely seems to be a "tutor rule" in Legacy and it really does go a long way in keeping things in check. I see Mind's Desire.dec basically replacing ANT personally. I don't think it's capable of ever doing what TES does, but I do think it does what ANT does better. That is, rather than near maximize accelerants with a five cmc mana base for raw power, it slows down with very stable mana (basics ftw!), and more setup turns which in turn gives it some new tools like threshold Cabal Ritual. Not having to rely on your lifetotal at all, as well as getting to play a full four copies of your primary business spell (and almost assuredly some number of Past in Flames which will help power large Desires as well as being crazy good to flip from a Desire), and maybe more than one copy of Tendrils is a big upside over Ad Nauseum. You basically insure that a Desire for any reasonable storm count hits enough gas to guarantee a win (another Desire or PiF), or just hits the win straight up. Yeah, you miss out on the occasional turn 1 win, but we all know that ANT isn't aiming for those anyways as it's almost strictly inferior to TES in that regard.
The fact that your main bomb is blue, and that you will be assuredly running a cantrip engine does also open you up to playing FoW, especially with no cmc restriction ala Ad Nausem. I have no clue as to whether or not the deck would have the space for it, or if it's even any better than a standard Duress + Cabal Therapy (with Gitaxian Probe being obviously synergistic with Therapy and an extra free spell off of Desire), but the option is there.
I love how you can post an old list and explain that it would have to be updated. It was posted to show the nuts and bolts of how a deck could, in this case used to, look. Naturally all the replies regarding it seem to ignore that point and just point to holes in the list missing the inherit power in the card.
I would say that's why some people seem less impressed with desire. My only concern is if the format would warp around it not its power.
A little tip on argumentation:
Pointing out a flaw in your own argument before anyone else does does not automatically nullify any criticism regarding that flaw in advance.
People are pointing out that the decklist is irrelevant because the decklist is, in fact, irrelevant. To say that people are "missing the inherit power in the card" would imply that the "inherit power in the card" is proven, which is precisely the thing you are supposed to be proving.
Which do you think is more likely:
1.the people who say mind's desire can be unbanned are aware that the card was at one point quite opressive, but the printing of new cards and evolution of the metagame has given us many decks that directly compete with and against mind's desire.dek
or do you sincerely believe, as you directly state in your post
2. that people who say mind's desire can be unbanned are totally unaware that the card was at one point quite powerful and are totally oblivious to the fact that it is even possible to build a deck that mind's desire.
Please, have a little respect for the people who don't agree with you. If you weren't so condescending and uncharitable to your opponent's positions I am positive you would be convinced.
Believe it or not, we are not "less impressed with desire" because we don't know how the card works or because we don't know how a deck that includes mind's desire would function. It's because we DO know how the card works and what the deck would look like that we are not bothered by the card enough to warrant it remaining on the banlist.
You haven't even considered the possibility that your opponents in this debate are just as intelligent as you are and simply disagree with you. Anyone who disagrees with you is just ignorant and can't see the truth. The truth is that you are the ignorant one because you are not capable of critically examining any view point that runs contrary to yours.
Pointing out a flaw in your own argument before anyone else does does not automatically nullify any criticism regarding that flaw in advance.
People are pointing out that the decklist is irrelevant because the decklist is, in fact, irrelevant. To say that people are "missing the inherit power in the card" would imply that the "inherit power in the card" is proven, which is precisely the thing you are supposed to be proving.
Which do you think is more likely:
1.the people who say can be unbanned are aware that the card was at one point quite opressive, but the printing of new cards and evolution of the metagame has given us many decks that directly compete with and against .dek
or do you sincerely believe, as you directly state in your post
2. that people who say can be unbanned are totally unaware that the card was at one point quite powerful and are totally oblivious to the fact that it is even possible to build a deck that .
Please, have a little respect for the people who don't agree with you. If you weren't so condescending and uncharitable to your opponent's positions I am positive you would be convinced.
Believe it or not, we are not "less impressed with desire" because we don't know how the card works or because we don't know how a deck that includes would function. It's because we DO know how the card works and what the deck would look like that we are not bothered by the card enough to warrant it remaining on the banlist.
You haven't even considered the possibility that your opponents in this debate are just as intelligent as you are and simply disagree with you. Anyone who disagrees with you is just ignorant and can't see the truth. The truth is that you are the ignorant one because you are not capable of critically examining any view point that runs contrary to yours.
Just out of curiosity, what would the Desire-storm's deck list even look like?
4 x Mind's Desire
? x Eldrazi (Emrakul)
Tons of mana rituals and cantrips?
did you read the page's content before that wall of text, or did you take the high road argument simply because there was a potential to do so? Bursama asked what kind of deck would run mind's desire, and thus the conversation moved forward.
the deck list was posted to in response to a question about what kind of deck list would run desire, which is a common misconception regarding the card. despite the fact that it was in its time, an extended list, the purpose of the post holds true, if i may defend myself.
if looks like to me that you are providing little content to the argument here, other than mix the pot and writing walls of text. not once in your post did you address the situation or give evidence as to what mind's desire will do to the format or why its over or under powered. that said, i recognize that what im saying is harsh, and i dont mean to offend or chastise you, im just saying, this is not accomplishing anything. for anyone.
this is not furthering the banlist conversation, and as ive proposed before, i think the mind's desire conversation is a beaten horse, moreso even than the show and tell conversation. lets all move on.
We are all friends here, this isnt a p*ssing contest, this is about our love for a great format, and what we think would forward it. Lets try to remember that.
lets get back to earthcraft and mind twist, cards that can be better discussed, and arent engines within themselves for their prospective decks.
did you read the page's content before that wall of text, or did you take the high road argument simply because there was a potential to do so? Bursama asked what kind of deck would run mind's desire, and thus the conversation moved forward.
Correction: I inquired what kind of deck would be the mindsdesire.deck you seemed to be talking about (though this might have been bit unclear, but this I inteded). I know it'd viable in other storm decks to rise the storm count (but it'd be a bit feeble to run 6 mana sorcery with UU in casting cost to rise the count and try to flip the winning spell that costs only 3...
I was interested what was the other variant that just wasn't "storm with MD", but MD-storm (with some other wincon).
Anyways, Earthcraft? Do you deem it is still bannable, since it'd enable Nest-craft combo, or not?
I wouldn't mind it coming out of the list (even though I wouldn't play it). While the combo produces infinite 1/1 -tokens, it still requires 3 mana and 1 untapped land to go off, and it'd still fizzle to Infest/Pyroclasm/Perish/Any mass wipe...
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Earthcraft is fine, and has been for a long time, I think. Mind Twist has been safe for a long time as well. It's the new Land Tax, really.
The banned list really needs to be gone through by the DCI. We're at a point where even Yawgmoth's Bargain is a legitimate target for unbanning discussion (after all, Griselbrand didn't break the format). Worldgorger and Mind Twist being banned are kind of a joke.
On the Mind's Desire deck, it would probably be U/B, with 4x Desire, 4x Tendrils (Tendrils off Desire is usually an auto-kill). 4x LEDs, 4x Infernal Tutors, etc. It would look a lot like current U/B ANT lists. I'm not sure if the red splash would be worth it or not. Burning wish and Past in Flames are incredible, but the splash hurts the mana base. There's a definite trade-off to be made there.
ild imagine it being more like ANT and high tide mashed together.
** on a different note, i leave the thread for a bit because i didnt like arguing about the possible banning of DRS, but the discussion on desire is almost as bad. we could discuss the possible unbanning of gush or black vise
both of which i am against, but those are the 2 cards that i feel have the best chance pf being unbanned
Gush has no chance of being unbanned in legacy. If it does, welcome to hell for 3 months.
@Bursama: Pyroclasm does nothing to infinite squirrels on the end step. Only real answer for that is instant speed stuffs or static effects like illness in the ranks. But earthcraft has been banned for far too long as it is a mediocre magic card by legacy standards right now.
Cards that could be unbanned that I wouldn't bat an eyelash at:
Earthcraft
Black Vise
Mind Twist
Worldgorger Dragon
Cards that could be banned and I wouldn't bat an eyelash at:
Griselbrand
Show and tell
Read a comment a couple of pages back that combo decks aren't likely to get any new pieces soon. I disagree with that statement greatly. Show and tell is getting new friends in theros block, I can almost guarantee that. Past in flames is kind of recent and gave storm a boost. Omniscience is one as well as enter the infinite. Ad nauseam is another one. Sure new combo cards aren't printed every single set, but they do come by and help improve existing combo decks or spawn new ones.
Anyone who thinks deathrite shaman is a bannable magic card is delusional. There's nothing remotely offensive about deathrite as he's just a mana dork that has some lategame relevance with the black and green activated abilities.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
black vise has potential to be scary, i'd be curious to see how it plays out.
It would only really be a threat to control decks which keep big hands; and it could only really be run in linear, hyper-aggressive decks. But such decks are currently very weak. Giving these decks a boost against what are already their best matches hardly seems like it could damage the format.
They won't unban black vise, t1 black vise, t2 goblin guide, lava spike is already 12 damage. If they crack two fetches, you can almost kill them with a fireblast.
I don't think mono red needs that kind of tool when it's already good. Hell, not even just mono red. Why wouldn't RUG play that kind of card? Or B/R delver?
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
They won't unban black vise, t1 black vise, t2 goblin guide, lava spike is already 12 damage. If they crack two fetches, you can almost kill them with a fireblast.
I don't think mono red needs that kind of tool when it's already good. Hell, not even just mono red. Why wouldn't RUG play that kind of card? Or B/R delver?
Black Vise deals damage (cards - 4), so even then it'd be only 8 damage. 3 from Vise, 2 from Guide, 3 more from Spike (3+2+3=8)
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Would Black Vise be really good for a high tide deck? It's main focus is to make a person draw cards to the point where a person decks out. But you'd have to make enough mana to make your opponent draw 40+ cards usually. Black Vise on the field would reduce that to 24 (this is counting their natural draw and assuming their at 20 life and assuming they have no cards in their hand at that moment). Or would it be a superfluous card for that kind of build?
Would Black Vise be really good for a high tide deck? It's main focus is to make a person draw cards to the point where a person decks out. But you'd have to make enough mana to make your opponent draw 40+ cards usually. Black Vise on the field would reduce that to 24 (this is counting their natural draw and assuming their at 20 life and assuming they have no cards in their hand at that moment). Or would it be a superfluous card for that kind of build?
its not a bad idea, though the entire idea behind a high tide deck is to cantrip and cycle through your own cards. it'd be interesting to see if someone did the math to see if its worth it, my concern would be the fact that its a dead draw sometimes, where a brainstorm couldve kept the combo alive.
Would Black Vise be really good for a high tide deck? It's main focus is to make a person draw cards to the point where a person decks out. But you'd have to make enough mana to make your opponent draw 40+ cards usually. Black Vise on the field would reduce that to 24 (this is counting their natural draw and assuming their at 20 life and assuming they have no cards in their hand at that moment). Or would it be a superfluous card for that kind of build?
High Tide has a very tight list. Personally, I wouldn't risk running Vise in it unless somebody could prove its worth.
They won't unban black vise, t1 black vise, t2 goblin guide, lava spike is already 12 damage. If they crack two fetches, you can almost kill them with a fireblast.
I don't think mono red needs that kind of tool when it's already good. Hell, not even just mono red. Why wouldn't RUG play that kind of card? Or B/R delver?
The thing is that unlike every other spell in Burn, Black Vise can be a very poor card on the draw (never mind a late game topdeck). So while on the one hand it would potentially increase the speed of the deck, it could hurt its consistency.
It's terrible in High Tide. If you were going to go off it's easy to USZ for a crapton, and if that's not an option you can Brain Freeze, both of which are tutorable by Merchant Scroll and Cunning Wish. Running an extra card just to make it easier during the combo is just lazy. Remand effectively doubles storm on Brain Freeze, cantrips, has utility outside the combo, and STILL doesn't make the cut in any competitive list.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
With many decks able to run off of very few lands it seems unlikely that dedicated LD would return. At this point it almost feels like running sinkhole could be a dead draw and that ignore the more common 3 cmc cards.
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Land Destruction as a deck can't be competitive in a format where combo decks can go off with no lands in play at the start of the turn, and tempo decks can function just fine with one land. Legacy as a format can basically just ignore LD.deck. Imagine drawing your god hand, just to stare down a turn one land -> vial, go.
Plus all of those free counterspells cramp their style as well. Force of Will might be bad against fair decks, but when you're wasting cards to ramp into LD spells, you're making it better and better. Force of Will is also really good against Black Vise, by the way.
Pox decks are good against tempo decks because they kill lands and creatures very well. The fact that rug runs very ew lands makes the match all the easier. It's soft to combo, but runs lots of discard.
Any LD will need creature removal, and i doubt anything will pop up better than Pox; regardless of Black Vise.
Land Destruction as a deck can't be competitive in a format where combo decks can go off with no lands in play at the start of the turn, and tempo decks can function just fine with one land. Legacy as a format can basically just ignore LD.deck. Imagine drawing your god hand, just to stare down a turn one land -> vial, go.
Plus all of those free counterspells cramp their style as well. Force of Will might be bad against fair decks, but when you're wasting cards to ramp into LD spells, you're making it better and better. Force of Will is also really good against Black Vise, by the way.
Pretty much this. This is why sinkhole has dwindled in significance over the years.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
LD aside: Black Vise is an omnipotent "damned if you do" style of card that quickly oppresses developed formats. The majority of decks that find success do so by holding more cards of value than their opponents. Black Vise tells those decks that they're no longer coming out on top for gripping a full package of bombs in-hand, and for what... one colorless mana!? Let it be.
I firmly believe that both Gush and Mind's Desire could easily come off, and that one card has made this possible (if not probable).
The printing of Flusterstorm single-handedly diffused a gigantic combo format, and forced combo players into more resilient decks like SNT and Elves. While nobody wants to remember how important ANT and High Tide were to Legacy two years ago, the printing of a single permission spell set those archetypes back YEARS.
Even then, Gush is a one-shot enabler for a deck that could play several other spells in its place to begin with. I'd happily let Gush back into the format if it means Frantic Search is wiped clean from the game's history.
We have Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, and Ethersworn Canonist, Rule of Law, Arcane Laboratory, etc. which all need to be answered before being able to go off. We also have more cheap disruption available nowadays than what was available back in the day - not only do we have classics like FoW, Daze, Counterspell, and Stifle for the storm trigger itself, there's options like Counterbalance + Top, Spell Pierce, Mindbreak Trap, and Flusterstorm. Liliana also now rounds out discard suites in a ton of popular decks, with the very effective Thoughtseize + Hymn + Liliana curve which is a beating against combo decks. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that any combo deck could truly warp the meta with how the format stands right now without a clearly overpowered tutor available to it. I think you need something like Mystical Tutor or Survival to be available to really dominate - tutors that not only find your combo but find protection, no questions asked. The tutors that we have in the format have heavy enough restrictions (be it through cmc, being sideboard reliant, or having to jump through hoops), and cantrip engines aren't nearly as efficient as they often take several turns, or just whiff.
There definitely seems to be a "tutor rule" in Legacy and it really does go a long way in keeping things in check. I see Mind's Desire.dec basically replacing ANT personally. I don't think it's capable of ever doing what TES does, but I do think it does what ANT does better. That is, rather than near maximize accelerants with a five cmc mana base for raw power, it slows down with very stable mana (basics ftw!), and more setup turns which in turn gives it some new tools like threshold Cabal Ritual. Not having to rely on your lifetotal at all, as well as getting to play a full four copies of your primary business spell (and almost assuredly some number of Past in Flames which will help power large Desires as well as being crazy good to flip from a Desire), and maybe more than one copy of Tendrils is a big upside over Ad Nauseum. You basically insure that a Desire for any reasonable storm count hits enough gas to guarantee a win (another Desire or PiF), or just hits the win straight up. Yeah, you miss out on the occasional turn 1 win, but we all know that ANT isn't aiming for those anyways as it's almost strictly inferior to TES in that regard.
The fact that your main bomb is blue, and that you will be assuredly running a cantrip engine does also open you up to playing FoW, especially with no cmc restriction ala Ad Nausem. I have no clue as to whether or not the deck would have the space for it, or if it's even any better than a standard Duress + Cabal Therapy (with Gitaxian Probe being obviously synergistic with Therapy and an extra free spell off of Desire), but the option is there.
A little tip on argumentation:
Pointing out a flaw in your own argument before anyone else does does not automatically nullify any criticism regarding that flaw in advance.
People are pointing out that the decklist is irrelevant because the decklist is, in fact, irrelevant. To say that people are "missing the inherit power in the card" would imply that the "inherit power in the card" is proven, which is precisely the thing you are supposed to be proving.
Which do you think is more likely:
1.the people who say mind's desire can be unbanned are aware that the card was at one point quite opressive, but the printing of new cards and evolution of the metagame has given us many decks that directly compete with and against mind's desire.dek
or do you sincerely believe, as you directly state in your post
2. that people who say mind's desire can be unbanned are totally unaware that the card was at one point quite powerful and are totally oblivious to the fact that it is even possible to build a deck that mind's desire.
Please, have a little respect for the people who don't agree with you. If you weren't so condescending and uncharitable to your opponent's positions I am positive you would be convinced.
Believe it or not, we are not "less impressed with desire" because we don't know how the card works or because we don't know how a deck that includes mind's desire would function. It's because we DO know how the card works and what the deck would look like that we are not bothered by the card enough to warrant it remaining on the banlist.
You haven't even considered the possibility that your opponents in this debate are just as intelligent as you are and simply disagree with you. Anyone who disagrees with you is just ignorant and can't see the truth. The truth is that you are the ignorant one because you are not capable of critically examining any view point that runs contrary to yours.
did you read the page's content before that wall of text, or did you take the high road argument simply because there was a potential to do so? Bursama asked what kind of deck would run mind's desire, and thus the conversation moved forward.
the deck list was posted to in response to a question about what kind of deck list would run desire, which is a common misconception regarding the card. despite the fact that it was in its time, an extended list, the purpose of the post holds true, if i may defend myself.
if looks like to me that you are providing little content to the argument here, other than mix the pot and writing walls of text. not once in your post did you address the situation or give evidence as to what mind's desire will do to the format or why its over or under powered. that said, i recognize that what im saying is harsh, and i dont mean to offend or chastise you, im just saying, this is not accomplishing anything. for anyone.
this is not furthering the banlist conversation, and as ive proposed before, i think the mind's desire conversation is a beaten horse, moreso even than the show and tell conversation. lets all move on.
We are all friends here, this isnt a p*ssing contest, this is about our love for a great format, and what we think would forward it. Lets try to remember that.
lets get back to earthcraft and mind twist, cards that can be better discussed, and arent engines within themselves for their prospective decks.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Correction: I inquired what kind of deck would be the mindsdesire.deck you seemed to be talking about (though this might have been bit unclear, but this I inteded). I know it'd viable in other storm decks to rise the storm count (but it'd be a bit feeble to run 6 mana sorcery with UU in casting cost to rise the count and try to flip the winning spell that costs only 3...
I was interested what was the other variant that just wasn't "storm with MD", but MD-storm (with some other wincon).
Anyways, Earthcraft? Do you deem it is still bannable, since it'd enable Nest-craft combo, or not?
I wouldn't mind it coming out of the list (even though I wouldn't play it). While the combo produces infinite 1/1 -tokens, it still requires 3 mana and 1 untapped land to go off, and it'd still fizzle to Infest/Pyroclasm/Perish/Any mass wipe...
The banned list really needs to be gone through by the DCI. We're at a point where even Yawgmoth's Bargain is a legitimate target for unbanning discussion (after all, Griselbrand didn't break the format). Worldgorger and Mind Twist being banned are kind of a joke.
On the Mind's Desire deck, it would probably be U/B, with 4x Desire, 4x Tendrils (Tendrils off Desire is usually an auto-kill). 4x LEDs, 4x Infernal Tutors, etc. It would look a lot like current U/B ANT lists. I'm not sure if the red splash would be worth it or not. Burning wish and Past in Flames are incredible, but the splash hurts the mana base. There's a definite trade-off to be made there.
Gush has no chance of being unbanned in legacy. If it does, welcome to hell for 3 months.
@Bursama: Pyroclasm does nothing to infinite squirrels on the end step. Only real answer for that is instant speed stuffs or static effects like illness in the ranks. But earthcraft has been banned for far too long as it is a mediocre magic card by legacy standards right now.
Cards that could be unbanned that I wouldn't bat an eyelash at:
Earthcraft
Black Vise
Mind Twist
Worldgorger Dragon
Cards that could be banned and I wouldn't bat an eyelash at:
Griselbrand
Show and tell
Read a comment a couple of pages back that combo decks aren't likely to get any new pieces soon. I disagree with that statement greatly. Show and tell is getting new friends in theros block, I can almost guarantee that. Past in flames is kind of recent and gave storm a boost. Omniscience is one as well as enter the infinite. Ad nauseam is another one. Sure new combo cards aren't printed every single set, but they do come by and help improve existing combo decks or spawn new ones.
Anyone who thinks deathrite shaman is a bannable magic card is delusional. There's nothing remotely offensive about deathrite as he's just a mana dork that has some lategame relevance with the black and green activated abilities.
Currently Playing:
Retired
i agree with earthcraft and mind twist. black vise has potential to be scary, i'd be curious to see how it plays out.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
It would only really be a threat to control decks which keep big hands; and it could only really be run in linear, hyper-aggressive decks. But such decks are currently very weak. Giving these decks a boost against what are already their best matches hardly seems like it could damage the format.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I don't think mono red needs that kind of tool when it's already good. Hell, not even just mono red. Why wouldn't RUG play that kind of card? Or B/R delver?
Legacy:
:symg::symb::symg:Pox:symg::symb::symg:
Edh:
:symg::symw::symu:Angus Mackenzie:symg::symw::symu:
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Black Vise deals damage (cards - 4), so even then it'd be only 8 damage. 3 from Vise, 2 from Guide, 3 more from Spike (3+2+3=8)
its not a bad idea, though the entire idea behind a high tide deck is to cantrip and cycle through your own cards. it'd be interesting to see if someone did the math to see if its worth it, my concern would be the fact that its a dead draw sometimes, where a brainstorm couldve kept the combo alive.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
High Tide has a very tight list. Personally, I wouldn't risk running Vise in it unless somebody could prove its worth.
The thing is that unlike every other spell in Burn, Black Vise can be a very poor card on the draw (never mind a late game topdeck). So while on the one hand it would potentially increase the speed of the deck, it could hurt its consistency.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
As well, I presume if black vise comes back there will be a competitive land destruction deck to bottle neck people.
Legacy:
:symg::symb::symg:Pox:symg::symb::symg:
Edh:
:symg::symw::symu:Angus Mackenzie:symg::symw::symu:
Would this be a bad thing or a good thing? Prison and LD are currently struggling in Legacy, and the format is less diverse without them.
The best LD deck right now uses Nether Void and may not apppreciate a Black Vise in play. There could be a new deck I suppose, that would be awesome!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Plus all of those free counterspells cramp their style as well. Force of Will might be bad against fair decks, but when you're wasting cards to ramp into LD spells, you're making it better and better. Force of Will is also really good against Black Vise, by the way.
Any LD will need creature removal, and i doubt anything will pop up better than Pox; regardless of Black Vise.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
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WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Pretty much this. This is why sinkhole has dwindled in significance over the years.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I firmly believe that both Gush and Mind's Desire could easily come off, and that one card has made this possible (if not probable).
The printing of Flusterstorm single-handedly diffused a gigantic combo format, and forced combo players into more resilient decks like SNT and Elves. While nobody wants to remember how important ANT and High Tide were to Legacy two years ago, the printing of a single permission spell set those archetypes back YEARS.
Even then, Gush is a one-shot enabler for a deck that could play several other spells in its place to begin with. I'd happily let Gush back into the format if it means Frantic Search is wiped clean from the game's history.