Except he didn't play against RUG or BUG. BUG has a decent game especially if they play DRS on turn 1 on the play. So Other combo and blue tempo doesn't seem like a counter the best deck it seems like it's just the latest iteration of entomb.
Um... what? I played against RUG twice, and DRS (non-Blue) twice, going 3-0-1 overall. I'm not sure where you're getting this information from, but it's definitely not accurate.
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Twitter - @MTGKoby | MODO - Koby 5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Belcher is technically 60/40 on the play against 4 force of will.dec, as people won't mull for FoW unless they know what deck you're on (unlikely in a 250 person tournament.) There's a 39.95% chance a person has FoW in their opening 7.
Please given me yawg's bargain + griselbrand + show and tell.dec. I dare you. I might even run dream halls in such a deck, although only testing would tell. Forget show and tell emrakul, show and tell griselbrand/bargain would be all the rage. The only thing holding such a thing back is the access to just 4 bargain effects. With 8 effects, it would be terrifying in all likelihood.
TinFins is certainly making a good case for why griselbrand or entomb or something needs to get banned. The turn 2 kill rate with the deck may be too high for the DCI's taste. People may adapt, they may not. Currently, I'm just going to keep jamming tinfins in every legacy tournament I go to while I can. Because if a piece gets banned, then I won't be able to play the deck ever again in all likelihood.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Have you guys been paying attention at all to the metagame for the last several weeks? Did you really not expect combo to come back swinging, kicking ass and taking names?
Midrange decks were warping around themselves and a lot of players in the SCG circuit were more or less pretending combo didn't exist while tuning their lists.
Of course combo would come back hard. You really think Deathrite Shaman is going to stop a competent Dredge, Reanimator, or TinFins player? When you start cutting Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Counterspell for cards like Hymn to Tourach and Ancestral Visions, and remove the Leylines and Relics from your sideboard what do you expect?
The metagame responded to the influx of grindy midrange decks. Combo will be around for a bit, and the metagame will respond with Miracles, and fast tempo decks.
Things are fine. Griselbrand is fine, Show and Tell is fine. You want to beat a glass cannon deck you can beat a glass cannon deck.
Have you guys been paying attention at all to the metagame for the last several weeks? Did you really not expect combo to come back swinging, kicking ass and taking names?
Midrange decks were warping around themselves and a lot of players in the SCG circuit were more or less pretending combo didn't exist while tuning their lists.
Of course combo would come back hard. You really think Deathrite Shaman is going to stop a competent Dredge, Reanimator, or TinFins player? When you start cutting Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Counterspell for cards like Hymn to Tourach and Ancestral Visions, and remove the Leylines and Relics from your sideboard what do you expect?
The metagame responded to the influx of grindy midrange decks. Combo will be around for a bit, and the metagame will respond with Miracles, and fast tempo decks.
Things are fine. Griselbrand is fine, Show and Tell is fine. You want to beat a glass cannon deck you can beat a glass cannon deck.
Great post, totally agree with everything said here.
If something from TinFins gets banned it's probably Grisselbrand, I doubt they will reban entomb, especially when reanimator itself has done well in months.
Tinfins is the evolution of reanimator with a diferent name and i dont think gb is the most ban worth since they can get a extra turn cheating emrakul into play and win the game via entomb.
entomb is a strong tutor and soon or later it gonna get the axe since dci want to print more broken creatures.
I would love to see more hate cards to deal with the way people is cheating strong permanents into play.
SCG las vegas was the demonstration how much bad players construct their sidebord since they removed graveyard hate cards to put there gpotato cards so just make me figure out reanimate is not a problem, was a pity reanimate didnt take over all top8 in las vegas.
Ban Entomb? There was 1 Tin Fins deck and no Reanimator decks in the top 8 at SCG Vegas.
Meanwhile, there was 2 Sneak Show's in the top 8, and 4 more in the top 22. Even the 12 post player who placed used 3 SnT main and 1 board.
All I can say is thank goodness for tin fins, Legacy was going way to midrange with Jund popping up every where. Sometimes you need combo to step up and hit the reset button on the meta clock.
Tin fins/Entomb isn't really a dominating deck. Its a good deck and can do some crazy stuff. But we would probably see SnT banned before Entomb.
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Stasis players like me are like those old gray haired convicts that have been locked up for 40 years straight. You can take us in a fight but you know you'll lose a testicle in the process of winning.
Decks I play
Legacy
Dredge 0
DredgeGBRU
AffinityXRUB
GoblinsRWB
10 land StompyG
BurnR
DreadstillURW
BelcherGR
Death and Taxes W
Enchantress GWR
BUILDING
Legacy Lands GBRUW
I'll never tell you the flavor text of Teferi's Imp!!
I find it ironic that in a super powered format, players are complaining about super powered cards that aren't even close to being broken to the point where they can't be dealt with.
I find it ironic that in a super powered format, players are complaining about super powered cards that aren't even close to being broken to the point where they can't be dealt with.
As Tormod said, all is well.
Nothing needs to be banned.
Exactly. When decks like Jund and Esperblade are doing well in the format, how can anyone say there needs to be a banning....
Is tin fins better then pure reanimator I do think it is, however, nothing in Tin Fins needs banning. The deck has the same problem storm has against a pure control deck with the extra weakness against graveyard hate.
The final match up last week in vegas showed just how weak the deck is against hate. Pull from eternity is nice but it does nothing against leyline or rest in piece.
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Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
In a vacuum I think TinFins is stronger than Reanimator, because what it is doing is inherently stronger. Storm is arguably the most broken keyword ever printed.
That said, Reanimator is MUCH more capable of fighting against hate, and forcing itself through blue decks, even Miracles. I also think Reanimator is more consistent, albeit a solid turn slower.
In a vacuum I think TinFins is stronger than Reanimator, because what it is doing is inherently stronger. Storm is arguably the most broken keyword ever printed.
That said, Reanimator is MUCH more capable of fighting against hate, and forcing itself through blue decks, even Miracles. I also think Reanimator is more consistent, albeit a solid turn slower.
I agree with these statements.
Objectively, I hold Tin Fins to be the most powerful deck in Legacy right now, completely based on the total mana investment to draw a minimum of 21 cards. 1BB to do so is a real steal, and the fact that it could be done with a single Dark Ritual is insane!
Empirically, the best and most consistent deck will be the one that is cause for concern. If we started seeing 50% of every large Legacy event populated with Tin Fins, then yes I would agree that we need to ban something quickly.
Conversely, Reanimator is a fair strategy in comparison with Tin Fins. The Reanimator deck is build to "effectively" win on the turn it reanimates, but formally win a few turns later.
As for answering cards, there are plenty of options available: Pithing Needle, Graveyard hate, Chain of Mephistopheles, Suppression Field, etc
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Calling for a banning of entomb or girsel is asanine. Tin Fins has had 1 t8 appearance. Furthermore, Reanimator, which is about the only deck that breaks entomb, has barely been in recent top 8's. Furthermore, I feel like Reanimator is too classic of an archetype to completely nerf.
If anything is getting banned, it is show and tell, which I don't even think is ban worthy, as it is completely on par with the power level of legacy and has not been completely dominating. It has mearly been the most popular and succesfull recent combo deck.
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Legacy Decks UBG Reanimator RUB Delver R Burn UR Delver UBW Tin Fins UBGR ANT
It has mearly been the most popular and succesfull recent combo deck.
I think people get "popular" and "ban worthy" confused quite easily for some reason. It's those fringe cases where the one tin fins player out of, let's arbitrarily say 60, always top 8's when you should start to consider bannings. Even that isn't a for sure reason to ban something. The environment will dictate that.
No changes required.
Some changes requested though -coughmindtwistcough-
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Until they print a creature that is the embodiment of "LOL just won" even more than GB we don't need any bans though. Enablers should be the banned cards if anything needs a ban because they're not going to stop printing overcosted fatties. GB doesn't need a ban. If he becomes a problem the format will adapt, that's just the way we roll.
Until they print a creature that is the embodiment of "LOL just won" even more than GB we don't need any bans though. Enablers should be the banned cards if anything needs a ban because they're not going to stop printing overcosted fatties. GB doesn't need a ban. If he becomes a problem the format will adapt, that's just the way we roll.
I'm pretty sure that Emrakul is a pretty "i win the game" card.
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"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon
Calling for a banning of entomb or girsel is asanine. Tin Fins has had 1 t8 appearance. Furthermore, Reanimator, which is about the only deck that breaks entomb, has barely been in recent top 8's. Furthermore, I feel like Reanimator is too classic of an archetype to completely nerf.
If anything is getting banned, it is show and tell, which I don't even think is ban worthy, as it is completely on par with the power level of legacy and has not been completely dominating. It has mearly been the most popular and succesfull recent combo deck.
In the last Legacy event I went to, one guy playing SnT didn't top 4. I did playing UW Miracles. The deck isn't unbeatable. In fact, nothing in Legacy right now is so degenerate that it needs to be banned.
So I'm calling it right now. Next B&R announcement, no new bans for Legacy.
I'm pretty sure that Emrakul is a pretty "i win the game" card.
You realize that the above card typically wins on the spot when it is sneak attacked/goryo's vengeance/shallow graved into play right whereas emrakul doesn't autowin? It doesn't get bounced by karakas, which is huge when it comes to emrakul. Only cards that hit it if it's show and telled into play are wrath effects and edict effects.
Tinfins top 8'ed one time. Big deal. When something needs to be banned in legacy it typically has to have 4 slots of the top 8 in a lot of consecutive tournaments like survival and stoneblade/NO RUG did when survival and misstep were legal in legacy.
Nothing is getting banned next update, unless the DCI is off its rocker.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Until they print a creature that is the embodiment of "LOL just won" even more than GB we don't need any bans though. Enablers should be the banned cards if anything needs a ban because they're not going to stop printing overcosted fatties. GB doesn't need a ban. If he becomes a problem the format will adapt, that's just the way we roll.
Even that can be beat if you really wanted to.
Terminus does the trick at instant speed when you put it in off Sneak Attack, as does good ol' Diabolic Edict. Hell, any token generator just chumps it all day.
You need something along the lines of:
20/20, Haste, Shroud, when ~ leaves the battlefield search your library for another copy of ~ and put it on the battlefield. If ~ would be put into the graveyard from anywhere reveal ~ and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.
You can't sweep the board or Edict it, you can't even Surgical Extraction them away because it can never go into the graveyard.
I think that might be about as unbeatable of a creature as you can get. Sure, you can make it unblockable or add trample, but I find shroud to be much funnier flavor wise. Give it flying, and you can just Lingering Souls/Bitterblossom it all day. Shadow is like saying, "sure you can block it, you just have to actually have a creature with shadow in your deck... at which point you have to ask yourself why you have something with shadow in your deck." Make it cost like 100WWWBBBGGGUUU. No red. Because then you could use Soltari Priest and block it all day
Re-Animator or Show & Tell (I consider these more or less the same deck)
ANT
BUG
These are the decks I consider rogue,
Miracles or anything trying a longer countermagic game
Helm or Painter..
MUD
Merfolk
Nic-Fit
Stoneblade
Thats it.
While I can somewhat agree that Reanimator and Show and tell are alike in certain ways I can not see why you would call miracles and stoneblade rogue? They are way way better than that tbh and stoneblade have top 8 a lot of Opens in the past months.
Also RUG Delver and dredge are decks. Lastest Open .. I would say you missed a few.
Um... what? I played against RUG twice, and DRS (non-Blue) twice, going 3-0-1 overall. I'm not sure where you're getting this information from, but it's definitely not accurate.
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
Please given me yawg's bargain + griselbrand + show and tell.dec. I dare you. I might even run dream halls in such a deck, although only testing would tell. Forget show and tell emrakul, show and tell griselbrand/bargain would be all the rage. The only thing holding such a thing back is the access to just 4 bargain effects. With 8 effects, it would be terrifying in all likelihood.
TinFins is certainly making a good case for why griselbrand or entomb or something needs to get banned. The turn 2 kill rate with the deck may be too high for the DCI's taste. People may adapt, they may not. Currently, I'm just going to keep jamming tinfins in every legacy tournament I go to while I can. Because if a piece gets banned, then I won't be able to play the deck ever again in all likelihood.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Infraction for spam issued. Please read the thread rules in the OP
-:pops:
Midrange decks were warping around themselves and a lot of players in the SCG circuit were more or less pretending combo didn't exist while tuning their lists.
Of course combo would come back hard. You really think Deathrite Shaman is going to stop a competent Dredge, Reanimator, or TinFins player? When you start cutting Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Counterspell for cards like Hymn to Tourach and Ancestral Visions, and remove the Leylines and Relics from your sideboard what do you expect?
The metagame responded to the influx of grindy midrange decks. Combo will be around for a bit, and the metagame will respond with Miracles, and fast tempo decks.
Things are fine. Griselbrand is fine, Show and Tell is fine. You want to beat a glass cannon deck you can beat a glass cannon deck.
Great post, totally agree with everything said here.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
S&T or Grisselbrand, takin all bets.
Ban Entomb? There was 1 Tin Fins deck and no Reanimator decks in the top 8 at SCG Vegas.
Meanwhile, there was 2 Sneak Show's in the top 8, and 4 more in the top 22. Even the 12 post player who placed used 3 SnT main and 1 board.
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg:
Everything is fine, no bans.
Decks I play
Legacy
Dredge 0
DredgeGBRU
AffinityXRUB
GoblinsRWB
10 land StompyG
BurnR
DreadstillURW
BelcherGR
Death and Taxes W
Enchantress GWR
BUILDING
Legacy Lands GBRUW
I'll never tell you the flavor text of Teferi's Imp!!
As Tormod said, all is well.
Nothing needs to be banned.
Exactly. When decks like Jund and Esperblade are doing well in the format, how can anyone say there needs to be a banning....
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg:
The final match up last week in vegas showed just how weak the deck is against hate. Pull from eternity is nice but it does nothing against leyline or rest in piece.
That said, Reanimator is MUCH more capable of fighting against hate, and forcing itself through blue decks, even Miracles. I also think Reanimator is more consistent, albeit a solid turn slower.
I agree with these statements.
Objectively, I hold Tin Fins to be the most powerful deck in Legacy right now, completely based on the total mana investment to draw a minimum of 21 cards. 1BB to do so is a real steal, and the fact that it could be done with a single Dark Ritual is insane!
Empirically, the best and most consistent deck will be the one that is cause for concern. If we started seeing 50% of every large Legacy event populated with Tin Fins, then yes I would agree that we need to ban something quickly.
Conversely, Reanimator is a fair strategy in comparison with Tin Fins. The Reanimator deck is build to "effectively" win on the turn it reanimates, but formally win a few turns later.
As for answering cards, there are plenty of options available: Pithing Needle, Graveyard hate, Chain of Mephistopheles, Suppression Field, etc
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
If anything is getting banned, it is show and tell, which I don't even think is ban worthy, as it is completely on par with the power level of legacy and has not been completely dominating. It has mearly been the most popular and succesfull recent combo deck.
UBG Reanimator
RUB Delver
R Burn
UR Delver
UBW Tin Fins
UBGR ANT
I think people get "popular" and "ban worthy" confused quite easily for some reason. It's those fringe cases where the one tin fins player out of, let's arbitrarily say 60, always top 8's when you should start to consider bannings. Even that isn't a for sure reason to ban something. The environment will dictate that.
No changes required.
Some changes requested though -coughmindtwistcough-
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
LOLFATTIE 9WWUUGGRRBB
Creature - LOLFATTIE
Haste, Flying, shroud
20/20
Until they print a creature that is the embodiment of "LOL just won" even more than GB we don't need any bans though. Enablers should be the banned cards if anything needs a ban because they're not going to stop printing overcosted fatties. GB doesn't need a ban. If he becomes a problem the format will adapt, that's just the way we roll.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
I'm pretty sure that Emrakul is a pretty "i win the game" card.
In the last Legacy event I went to, one guy playing SnT didn't top 4. I did playing UW Miracles. The deck isn't unbeatable. In fact, nothing in Legacy right now is so degenerate that it needs to be banned.
So I'm calling it right now. Next B&R announcement, no new bans for Legacy.
You can quote me on that.
You realize that the above card typically wins on the spot when it is sneak attacked/goryo's vengeance/shallow graved into play right whereas emrakul doesn't autowin? It doesn't get bounced by karakas, which is huge when it comes to emrakul. Only cards that hit it if it's show and telled into play are wrath effects and edict effects.
Tinfins top 8'ed one time. Big deal. When something needs to be banned in legacy it typically has to have 4 slots of the top 8 in a lot of consecutive tournaments like survival and stoneblade/NO RUG did when survival and misstep were legal in legacy.
Nothing is getting banned next update, unless the DCI is off its rocker.
Currently Playing:
Retired
3 decks are winning,
Re-Animator or Show & Tell (I consider these more or less the same deck)
ANT
BUG
These are the decks I consider rogue,
Miracles or anything trying a longer countermagic game
Helm or Painter..
MUD
Merfolk
Nic-Fit
Stoneblade
Thats it.
Even that can be beat if you really wanted to.
Terminus does the trick at instant speed when you put it in off Sneak Attack, as does good ol' Diabolic Edict. Hell, any token generator just chumps it all day.
You need something along the lines of:
20/20, Haste, Shroud, when ~ leaves the battlefield search your library for another copy of ~ and put it on the battlefield. If ~ would be put into the graveyard from anywhere reveal ~ and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.
You can't sweep the board or Edict it, you can't even Surgical Extraction them away because it can never go into the graveyard.
I think that might be about as unbeatable of a creature as you can get. Sure, you can make it unblockable or add trample, but I find shroud to be much funnier flavor wise. Give it flying, and you can just Lingering Souls/Bitterblossom it all day. Shadow is like saying, "sure you can block it, you just have to actually have a creature with shadow in your deck... at which point you have to ask yourself why you have something with shadow in your deck." Make it cost like 100WWWBBBGGGUUU. No red. Because then you could use Soltari Priest and block it all day
While I can somewhat agree that Reanimator and Show and tell are alike in certain ways I can not see why you would call miracles and stoneblade rogue? They are way way better than that tbh and stoneblade have top 8 a lot of Opens in the past months.
Also RUG Delver and dredge are decks.
Lastest Open .. I would say you missed a few.
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Credits to Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the truly miraculous sig.
GURRUG Delver
RGoblins
RUGPunishing Balance
Modern:
UR Izzet Tron
But not this turn. You don't get the extra turn off a show and tell, so you always have a turn to answer him.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!