Abrupt Decay is a catch all that makes creatures for under 3 mana unplayable, because they die to it and then gain your opponent 2 life
A dead Deathrite Shaman doesn't gain life. An aggro deck would need reach anyway. Of course simply stating that there are answers for a card is absolute foolishness, but the point is that we are talking about something like 10-12 cheap burn and removal spells for Deathrite Shaman. Aggro should be able to take care of it. I bet you're right about Delver though. It certainly is a problem in so many ways. I would say that this card is standing directly in the way of aggro. Why should anyone play nonblue attackers when the best one is in blue?
Quote from wildfire »
You're complaining about the lack of placement for Aggro decks with "near zero disruption". Which is pretty much just non-interactivity.
Who is complaining? This is a discussion topic. I did not even start off with an opinion.
Quote from wildfire »
Legacy is a tremendously interactive format. There's a reason that Force of Will is one of the most-played cards - if you don't interact, you just lose.
Zoo had 6 top-8's last year. It had 122 in 2011. That's a pretty significant drop, and it can be attributed to a number of factors:
1) Mental Misstep was printed in May 2011, and was Legal until September 2011. This hurt Zoo tremendously, and its popularity never quite recovered after MM's banning, as many players had abandoned ship in the time between its printing and banning.
2) Right after MM's banning, Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage were printed. This lead to many aggro-friendly players switching over to BUG or RUG Delver/Threshold decks, and also heralded the rise of Stoneblade.
3) 2012 was a very rough year for non-interactive aggro. Terminus and Entreat the Angels were printed, which revitalized the waning Countertop deck and gave it a suite of very cheap Wrath effects. Griselbrand and Omniscience lead to a rise of Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Hypergenesis, and Reanimate decks, all of which walk all over Zoo. Supreme Verdict provided yet another popular Legacy-quality Wrath effect, while Rest in Peace gave Energy Field a new popularity.
So yes, non-interactive aggro may be at kind of an all-time low. Even somewhat disruptive aggro like Goblins, Death and Taxes, and Maverick have seen a pretty big decline. The past two months have seen in the top 8 one Goblins, one Maverick, one Death and Taxes, no Burn, no Zoo.
However, interactive midrange aggro decks are at an all-time high. Jund is the current most top-8ing deck of the past two months, and BUG Threshold is right behind it, neck in neck with Stoneblade. After that, RUG Delver and Show&Tell, followed by Miracles.
So, you are saying that pure aggro decks are not doing well because they are pure aggro decks, and then follow with evidence to show us how poorly they are doing. Thanks.
I agree with the sentiment that red could use a good 2cmc creature right now. But I do not think one would even be enough. Red really does not have much of anything staples beyond Lightning Bolt. Maybe if it were a strong anti-blue card that might be enough.
I just don't agree with the term of aggro I guess. To me maverick, and delver are both aggro decks but they don't fit your criteria because they aren't minimally disruptive. My problem is why exactly can't aggro have a disruption kit and not be counter as aggro in this format? Legacy does have the boogyman combos that are faster than any aggro clock and short of a 1 mana 10/10 with haste there isn't a solution to make a pure aggro deck without disruption become a lynchpin of the meta.
RED BURN is the top tier agro deck IMHO.. which in consideration to its spells, they can remove creatures and distrupt the battlefield. and they wont be a top 1 deck in any of the tourney unless they ban lifelinkers which is the only major problem for most aggro decks that was mentioned before my post. IMHO
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What exactly would a red two drop do?
I agree that red needs one, not even just for Zoo to come back, but just in general.
If it's just a beater, then I guess that's good for Zoo, but no matter what they do it would probably play second fiddle to Goyf unless it's just obscene in power level. Like sure, a 3/4 haster is good but Goyf can easily get bigger and then your 3/4 is moot.
I think you really need a disruptive creature. I look at Ash Zealot and just think "So close!" It's almost where you want to be, but the ability needs to hit a wider variety of decks. It doesn't need to be some insanely strong ability, but never really dead. That's what makes Qasali Pridemage and Thalia extremely good for Zoo. Relevant abilities in combat, and relevant abilities that hit a majority of decks you will come up against.
What if there was something akin to a Chains of Mephistopheles on a stick?
WotC has been pushing Red into the color of looting, but tweaked its style of looting to be different from blue by discarding first then drawing. That's exactly what Chains makes you do, so the ability would fit with red's new take on looting.
That would be a brutal play against any blue deck, neutering Brainstorm, Jace, Ancestral Visions, and making their other cantrips a little worse. The big thing over Chains is that as a creature (that hopefully has a relevant ability in combat to boot, like Haste or First Strike) it's never dead and fits with Zoo's gameplan. Digging for that Terminus, or StP suddenly becomes a very daunting task. Setting up your combo ala Brainstorm is going to cost you the other cards in your hand.
Pretty much this, true burn plays like combo more than anything else (it's fallback is to play a bit more controlish).
If we're talking more of a sligh build with guides and a few other dorks I can get the aggro arguement but true burn feels like combo more than anything.
Just as silly as talking about pure aggro. There's no pure anything in legacy other than belcher and PSI, and they're not tier 1 either precisely because they only do one thing.
I think Flametongue Kavu for RR would be a good start. It's probably OP as is and needs refinement, but it's the ideal combination of board control, card advantage, big body, and efficient mana cost.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Well, when even a 20/20 flying indestructable for BB can be taken down by One mana, you see the problem: Spells are better than creatures, especially at instant speed.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
The format is TOO GOOD to have a pure aggro linear deck. Unless you suddenly introduced broken stuff like "[1 mana] = Deal 4 damage" (don't say thunderous wrath),
You're complaining about the lack of placement for Aggro decks with "near zero disruption". Which is pretty much just non-interactivity.
Legacy is a tremendously interactive format. There's a reason that Force of Will is one of the most-played cards - if you don't interact, you just lose.
Zoo had 6 top-8's last year. It had 122 in 2011. That's a pretty significant drop, and it can be attributed to a number of factors:
1) Mental Misstep was printed in May 2011, and was Legal until September 2011. This hurt Zoo tremendously, and its popularity never quite recovered after MM's banning, as many players had abandoned ship in the time between its printing and banning.
2) Right after MM's banning, Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage were printed. This lead to many aggro-friendly players switching over to BUG or RUG Delver/Threshold decks, and also heralded the rise of Stoneblade.
3) 2012 was a very rough year for non-interactive aggro. Terminus and Entreat the Angels were printed, which revitalized the waning Countertop deck and gave it a suite of very cheap Wrath effects. Griselbrand and Omniscience lead to a rise of Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Hypergenesis, and Reanimate decks, all of which walk all over Zoo. Supreme Verdict provided yet another popular Legacy-quality Wrath effect, while Rest in Peace gave Energy Field a new popularity.
Point 1 is actually incorrect While metal mistep was legal was the only time zoo was really teir one since mid 2010.
I think zoo would become popular again if in a supplementary product WoTC printed a red Wild Nacatl that gets +1/+1 if you control a forest and +1/+1 if you control a plains and a white Wild Nacatl that gets +1/+1 if you control a forest and +1/+1 if you control a mountain.
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I think zoo would become popular again if in a supplementary product WoTC printed a red Wild Nacatl that gets +1/+1 if you control a forest and +1/+1 if you control a plains and a white Wild Nacatl that gets +1/+1 if you control a forest and +1/+1 if you control a mountain.
A red Wild Necatl would be Green/Red/Black... And if wizards made a creature it would go hand and hand with Grim Lavamancer and actually make Bump in the Night a 'burn' playable card.
I think the lions and the apes are good. The only card holding them back is Show and Tell. (not Delver of Secrets)
first of all
There are SO MANY obvious balance problems with Magic that I prefer to mention only one (and the first one) to stay on topic
dark ritual, lightning bold, healing salve, ancestral recall and giant growth
All those cards are 1 mana for an effect with a number 3
After so many years of insane unbalanced gameplay (necro summer, standard skullclamp, all urza block, etc) Wizards is trying to mantain a healthy type 2. How many good heavy-counterspell deck you saw in the last 5 years in t2? How many combos? How many banned cards from t2?
Aggro decks suffer because there are many "unfair" cards being used from TWO DECADES ago (candelabra lol)
I wouldn't say aggro is non-existant; although we see many more tempo variations in legacy if anything. The rediculous large card pool give us access to an incredible ammount of removal and attrition. Not to mention the fact that combo decks destroy aggro strategies. Even RDW is about not playable competitively in standard.
On topic let me just say, I love the fact that aggro doesnt run wild in legacy. This is one of the many reasons I love the format. Its more strategic, unlike standard where you turn dudes sideways and win. It requies a deep knowledge of the meta, and any given deck will be played completely different based on the match-up.
Aggro decks suffer because there are many "unfair" cards being used from TWO DECADES ago (candelabra lol)
I don't know what you are trying to establish with this point but its quite untrue.
First off, Candelabra is quite fair. High Tide is the offending card.
Second off, there aren't many super broken cards that aren't already on the banlist. The most played cards from 20 years ago is dual lands. Arguably too efficient but by no means busted. Aside from that we have Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt. 1 mana removal is once again probably too efficient but by no means broken.
If you think about it. New newer cards are way more unfair than the old ones. Whats more unfair? Show and Tell or Emrakul/Griselbrand? Show and Tell seems like the offending card but if you ban that, people would just exploit some other way to abuse Emrakul (there are many).
Theres also stuff like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and various super overpowered 2 drop creature that's legal in modern.
The new stuff is far more broken. I remember Juggernaut being too good and thus banned.
Its not that there isn't a proper aggro deck, its that in a format that uses all the magic cards in history there is no reason to build a deck that DOESN'T have the ability to heavily interact with your opponent to disrupt them.
This exactly. Aggro decks will generally include hate bears, Wasteland, and/or other disruption because they can, This is so common in Legacy that when people see a "pure" aggro deck like Burn or Affinity some of them actually think it's combo!
Incidentally, Burn only superficially resembles combo. There are no synergies, key cards or essential combinations of cards or plays. The deck needs to resolve six (or so) spells and pretty much any six will do. This is nothing like a combo deck, wherein countering the right spell will ruin the whole game plan.
Yes, "pure" aggro will always be rare in Legacy because the disruption is too efficient not to splash. Just as pure draw/go will rarely be tier one because the permanents are too good to leave out.
Merfolk has always existed and is an aggro deck. It runs disruption only to get rid of the few things that would make you lose. But it relies soley on creatures that pump one another and does so without some combo to get them out (like Elves).
So it sounds like the answer is some super nacatl. Maybe a R for a 2/1 that gets +1/+1 and trample with a forest and +1/+1 and first strike with a plains. I would agree though, whatever it is needs to be red first and foremost or other decks will just adopt it.
The aggro we seem to be discussing seems to want a red nacatl. Or at least something that will trade with a tarmogoyf. It also needs to be a creature that only red would want to play. A jackal pup with similar abilities may even be worth it if it can kill a tarmogoyf.
Bottom line, it feels like red needs better cards for pure aggro to come back
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I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
You guys are going in the wrong direction. What's really needed is a better hate bear. Something like:
New Thalia
1W
Flying
Noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast.
When ~ enters the battlefield, exile all graveyards.
Sacrifice ~: Exile target legendary creature.
2/1
my issue is when you get into legacy, most of the decks are going to try and end the game t4 or less. its rampant with combo right now. there are some very viable aggro decks, mono green stompy is pretty good, and goblins are good as well. the thing i've noticed is that about all the current top tier decks are combo or control based.
another onthe mgs, if it an infect build, some can kill turn 2 easily.
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I agree with the sentiment that red could use a good 2cmc creature right now. But I do not think one would even be enough. Red really does not have much of anything staples beyond Lightning Bolt. Maybe if it were a strong anti-blue card that might be enough.
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I agree that red needs one, not even just for Zoo to come back, but just in general.
If it's just a beater, then I guess that's good for Zoo, but no matter what they do it would probably play second fiddle to Goyf unless it's just obscene in power level. Like sure, a 3/4 haster is good but Goyf can easily get bigger and then your 3/4 is moot.
I think you really need a disruptive creature. I look at Ash Zealot and just think "So close!" It's almost where you want to be, but the ability needs to hit a wider variety of decks. It doesn't need to be some insanely strong ability, but never really dead. That's what makes Qasali Pridemage and Thalia extremely good for Zoo. Relevant abilities in combat, and relevant abilities that hit a majority of decks you will come up against.
What if there was something akin to a Chains of Mephistopheles on a stick?
WotC has been pushing Red into the color of looting, but tweaked its style of looting to be different from blue by discarding first then drawing. That's exactly what Chains makes you do, so the ability would fit with red's new take on looting.
That would be a brutal play against any blue deck, neutering Brainstorm, Jace, Ancestral Visions, and making their other cantrips a little worse. The big thing over Chains is that as a creature (that hopefully has a relevant ability in combat to boot, like Haste or First Strike) it's never dead and fits with Zoo's gameplan. Digging for that Terminus, or StP suddenly becomes a very daunting task. Setting up your combo ala Brainstorm is going to cost you the other cards in your hand.
Pretty much this, true burn plays like combo more than anything else (it's fallback is to play a bit more controlish).
If we're talking more of a sligh build with guides and a few other dorks I can get the aggro arguement but true burn feels like combo more than anything.
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RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
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UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
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0Dredge0
Vexing Devil
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Vexing devil is a bad card. It gives your opponent the best of two options. At worst vexing devil is a snuff out that draws a card.
The only way you can apply an aggro strategy and not get defeated by Terminus is with either disruption or card advantage.
1. RUG Delver is a fine example of an aggro deck with disruption.
2. Goblins is the another aggro deck with lots of card advantage.
Decks like zoo with presents no card advantage or disruption simply get wrecked by sweepers. Same with Maverick.
Point 1 is actually incorrect While metal mistep was legal was the only time zoo was really teir one since mid 2010.
Unfortunately Loam Lion and Kird Ape are just not good enough in legacy anymore when there is stuff like Delver of Secrets .
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A red Wild Necatl would be Green/Red/Black... And if wizards made a creature it would go hand and hand with Grim Lavamancer and actually make Bump in the Night a 'burn' playable card.
I think the lions and the apes are good. The only card holding them back is Show and Tell. (not Delver of Secrets)
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There are SO MANY obvious balance problems with Magic that I prefer to mention only one (and the first one) to stay on topic
dark ritual, lightning bold, healing salve, ancestral recall and giant growth
All those cards are 1 mana for an effect with a number 3
After so many years of insane unbalanced gameplay (necro summer, standard skullclamp, all urza block, etc) Wizards is trying to mantain a healthy type 2. How many good heavy-counterspell deck you saw in the last 5 years in t2? How many combos? How many banned cards from t2?
Aggro decks suffer because there are many "unfair" cards being used from TWO DECADES ago (candelabra lol)
On topic let me just say, I love the fact that aggro doesnt run wild in legacy. This is one of the many reasons I love the format. Its more strategic, unlike standard where you turn dudes sideways and win. It requies a deep knowledge of the meta, and any given deck will be played completely different based on the match-up.
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW
I don't know what you are trying to establish with this point but its quite untrue.
First off, Candelabra is quite fair. High Tide is the offending card.
Second off, there aren't many super broken cards that aren't already on the banlist. The most played cards from 20 years ago is dual lands. Arguably too efficient but by no means busted. Aside from that we have Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt. 1 mana removal is once again probably too efficient but by no means broken.
If you think about it. New newer cards are way more unfair than the old ones. Whats more unfair? Show and Tell or Emrakul/Griselbrand? Show and Tell seems like the offending card but if you ban that, people would just exploit some other way to abuse Emrakul (there are many).
Theres also stuff like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and various super overpowered 2 drop creature that's legal in modern.
The new stuff is far more broken. I remember Juggernaut being too good and thus banned.
This exactly. Aggro decks will generally include hate bears, Wasteland, and/or other disruption because they can, This is so common in Legacy that when people see a "pure" aggro deck like Burn or Affinity some of them actually think it's combo!
Incidentally, Burn only superficially resembles combo. There are no synergies, key cards or essential combinations of cards or plays. The deck needs to resolve six (or so) spells and pretty much any six will do. This is nothing like a combo deck, wherein countering the right spell will ruin the whole game plan.
Yes, "pure" aggro will always be rare in Legacy because the disruption is too efficient not to splash. Just as pure draw/go will rarely be tier one because the permanents are too good to leave out.
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RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
The aggro we seem to be discussing seems to want a red nacatl. Or at least something that will trade with a tarmogoyf. It also needs to be a creature that only red would want to play. A jackal pup with similar abilities may even be worth it if it can kill a tarmogoyf.
Bottom line, it feels like red needs better cards for pure aggro to come back
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
New Thalia
1W
Flying
Noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast.
When ~ enters the battlefield, exile all graveyards.
Sacrifice ~: Exile target legendary creature.
2/1
another onthe mgs, if it an infect build, some can kill turn 2 easily.
the red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.