So, after doing some research in regards to Dredge, I've noticed that there are several archetypes of the deck (I understand the basics, can play through the decks... but fail to see why one is picked over the other besides budget).
The three types that I've come to know are as follows:
LED Dredge
LEDless Dredge
Manaless Dredge
I can see that LED Dredge has the benefits of being more explosive with Faithless Looting being playable off of LED as well as first turn explosive wins.
I see arguements for Manaless Dredge being more consistent. I can understand this since it has more dredgers and a strong discard outlet in the form of Phantasmagorian that does not need to aggressively mull (as well as just the Draw-Discard-Dredge play that they are famous for).
I don't understand the LEDless Dredge however. I also fail to see how Manaless Dredge is THAT much more consistent than LED dredge. They seem like it would still be less since LED Dredge has so much graveyard fixing with the draw/discard cards that they play.
Anyways, here are three sample decklists and I would be curious to know if anyone could help me with quite a few questions that I have:
LED Dredge - SCG Edison 6th Place (279 Players) - 2/10/2013
I understand how each of these decks play out, however I don't really understand the benefits of one over the other. Is there anyone that could shed some light on this? (:
They are all run this year and seen success (I know that the players own LED and choose not to run it preferring it so it's not budget that is making them choose this in this instance).
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Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
This deck is a variation of manaless. LEDless has Tireless Tribe with PImp as your turn one discard outlet. You pretty much take the 4 LED, make them Tireless Tribes, and tweak your spells from there. With the LED version be so much more explosive, the LEDless version kinda went into hiding for now. LED is a race to get done before your opponent.
This deck is a variation of manaless. LEDless has Tireless Tribe with PImp as your turn one discard outlet. You pretty much take the 4 LED, make them Tireless Tribes, and tweak your spells from there. With the LED version be so much more explosive, the LEDless version kinda went into hiding for now. LED is a race to get done before your opponent.
I know how the decks are played, I'm not wanting a primer or instruction on the deck, although I appreciate the thought.
Also, I disagree that that is a variation on the manaless as it uses Darkmor Salvage as a trigger for Bloodghast which leads to different plays. It has some elements of manaless sure, but it plays differently enough imo.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Cleanup step into Phantasmagorian is the trademark of Manaless. Gitaxian Probe, and Nether Shadows are also Mainstays, and Bloodghast was in the first Manaless Variant created to eschew one mana discard outlets in the Mental Misstep era. That deck is Manaless through and through.
Cleanup step into Phantasmagorian is the trademark of Manaless. Gitaxian Probe, and Nether Shadows are also Mainstays, and Bloodghast was in the first Manaless Variant created to eschew one mana discard outlets in the Mental Misstep era. That deck is Manaless through and through.
Fine, whatever. Not my main concern.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I was going to comment about your LEDless being manaless but that was covered already.
Fine, whatever. Not my main concern.
Even if it isn't your main concern it is something you will need to know. How can someone explain benefits of one deck over another if you don't even know what such a deck looks like.
As a small point with regards to LED vs LEDless is that LED allows for more explosive turns. It allows the deck to win usually a turn earlier with a little less consistency. That's puttin it in the broadest scope.
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I was going to comment about your LEDless being manaless but that was covered already.
Even if it isn't your main concern it is something you will need to know. How can someone explain benefits of one deck over another if you don't even know what such a deck looks like.
As a small point with regards to LED vs LEDless is that LED allows for more explosive turns. It allows the deck to win usually a turn earlier with a little less consistency. That's puttin it in the broadest scope.
Quite valid mate. I need to apologize for my ignorance earlier! I don't understand why it is less consistent though. At this point I believe that with the printing of Faithless Looting that LED Dredge is superior to LEDless?
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Well I'm probably not the best to wax philosophical about dredge, but I generally consider 2 types of dredge: dredge and manaless dredge. That is where the discussion should focus.
There is more of a build difference between those varieties. Most other dredge builds will look similiar to one of those two with or without LED's. I would say you are correct with your assessment of faithless looting. Without it there was little difference I playing with/without LED. Looting made a difference.
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Manaless is more consistent simply because you have less chaff in the form of LED and draw-spells that you don't require. LED dredge runs half the creatures that manaless runs, making the ichorid plan less reliant than simply turning your deck over with lootings. Manaless can be more grindy where LED can just explode all over your opponent's face. Manaless can also go the entire game without casting any spells, reducing the interaction you receive from an opponent.
I don't understand the LEDless Dredge however. I also fail to see how Manaless Dredge is THAT much more consistent than LED dredge. They seem like it would still be less since LED Dredge has so much graveyard fixing with the draw/discard cards that they play.
Anyways, here are three sample decklists and I would be curious to know if anyone could help me with quite a few questions that I have:
LED Dredge - SCG Edison 6th Place (279 Players) - 2/10/2013
[DECK]
LANDS: 13
LED Dredge packs itself with mana sources and discard outlets that it has to cast as well as its dredge core and win condition which is typically making a lot of zombies off of bridge or making a relatively large troll. It includes a few Ichord but typically has a much harder time feeding them than the manaless package.
The manaless package simply has a lot more gas because the DDD plan gets you moving and the entire deck is streamlined to be threat dense and consistent.
Manaless can win with Ichorid/Shadow beats, Griselbrand-->Troll-->Flayer combo kill, Bridge from below endurance game, or any combination of these methods. Having this much flexibility makes it hard for a lot of graveyard hate to stop it dead. Manaless also has a far better game against Deathrite Shaman than a lot of players give it credit for, and because Deathrite reduces the grave hate in players sideboards by providing this false sense of security it positions dredge to take advantage of the situation.
LED versions of the deck are looking for a very specific mix of cards to go crazy and win before the opponent can do anything. Something like City, LED, Breakthrough, Crack LED, Dredge some dudes, Flashback Faithless Looting, Flashback Dread Return off of Narcos, Win the game. However you're more liable to have awkward hands than Manaless, which basically keeps whatever it gets because it has something like 94% chance of seeing a dredger by card 8.
I knew much less than I thought! What is Quadlazer?
High consistency build which maxes out on Breakthrough, Careful Study, Faithless Looting, and several other cards. It's likely the most vulnerable to Surgical Extraction but one of the more consistent mana based builds.
That makes sense that it's more resilient since it's not straight forward with that one win strategy... So why does LED Dredge see so much more success? Is it simply played more often? Is it easier to successfully play?
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Current Decks:
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Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
That makes sense that it's more resilient since it's not straight forward with that one win strategy... So why does LED Dredge see so much more success? Is it simply played more often? Is it easier to successfully play?
LED Dredge is easier to play and Manaless Dredge is weaker against combo decks.
I'll just go ahead and take the opportunity Dredge is being discussed and ask a question I have had myself for a while.
I have been playing a Manaless Dredge and have been having a hard time figuring out how to work around hate without having to add mana to the deck. I have looked for it and haven't found much besides Chancellor of the Annex, Contagion, Sickening Shoal and Vengeful Pharaoh as manaless ways to delay game or removal. Also, I have no idea how to deal with a turn 1 Leyline of the Void or a Rest in Peace without adding mana.
Is there a strategy I'm missing or is it just a straight up loss after one of those hits the battlefield?
Manaless Dredge from what I've seen has been moving in Dryad Arbor as a way to deal with RiP and Leyline (by turning on Reverent Silence), along with an easy way to get another creature for Dread Return.
Manaless Dredge from what I've seen has been moving in Dryad Arbor as a way to deal with RiP and Leyline (by turning on Reverent Silence), alone with an easy way to get another creature for Dread Return.
I've seen Dryad Arbor as well played often. The third deck I listed shows a great anti-hate setup.
MB contagion and Sickening Shoal (Since the MB hate that you will have to primarily be concerned with is DRS and simply try to outrace Miracles with MB RiP) as well as SB Reverent Silence and fetch lands to aid with that.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
This post contains nothing useful for me other than strong bias from your viewpoint.
I have played a lot of both LED and manaless and LED is better, not hugely better, but better. I think that a little research on tournament results will support this as well.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
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The three types that I've come to know are as follows:
I can see that LED Dredge has the benefits of being more explosive with Faithless Looting being playable off of LED as well as first turn explosive wins.
I see arguements for Manaless Dredge being more consistent. I can understand this since it has more dredgers and a strong discard outlet in the form of Phantasmagorian that does not need to aggressively mull (as well as just the Draw-Discard-Dredge play that they are famous for).
I don't understand the LEDless Dredge however. I also fail to see how Manaless Dredge is THAT much more consistent than LED dredge. They seem like it would still be less since LED Dredge has so much graveyard fixing with the draw/discard cards that they play.
Anyways, here are three sample decklists and I would be curious to know if anyone could help me with quite a few questions that I have:
LED Dredge - SCG Edison 6th Place (279 Players) - 2/10/2013
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
CREATURES: 22
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
1 Firestorm
1 Dread Return
OTHER: 8
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
1 Ichorid
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Firestorm
1 Dread Return
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Nature's Claim
1 Memory's Journey
1 Darkblast
LEDless Dredge- 5th Manilla Legacy (92 Players) - 1/20/2013
4 Dakmor Salvage
CREATURES: 40
4 Street Wraith
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bloodghast
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Griselbrand
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
OTHER: 4
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dryad Arbor
2 Nature's Claim
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
3 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Reverent Silence
Manaless Dredge- NELC - 1/19/2013
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
3 Griselbrand
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Contagion
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Sickening Shoal
4 Dread Return
OTHER: 4
4 Bridge from Below
4 Reverent Silence
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
I understand how each of these decks play out, however I don't really understand the benefits of one over the other. Is there anyone that could shed some light on this? (:
They are all run this year and seen success (I know that the players own LED and choose not to run it preferring it so it's not budget that is making them choose this in this instance).
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
This deck is a variation of manaless. LEDless has Tireless Tribe with PImp as your turn one discard outlet. You pretty much take the 4 LED, make them Tireless Tribes, and tweak your spells from there. With the LED version be so much more explosive, the LEDless version kinda went into hiding for now. LED is a race to get done before your opponent.
I know how the decks are played, I'm not wanting a primer or instruction on the deck, although I appreciate the thought.
Also, I disagree that that is a variation on the manaless as it uses Darkmor Salvage as a trigger for Bloodghast which leads to different plays. It has some elements of manaless sure, but it plays differently enough imo.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Fine, whatever. Not my main concern.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
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Even if it isn't your main concern it is something you will need to know. How can someone explain benefits of one deck over another if you don't even know what such a deck looks like.
As a small point with regards to LED vs LEDless is that LED allows for more explosive turns. It allows the deck to win usually a turn earlier with a little less consistency. That's puttin it in the broadest scope.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Quite valid mate. I need to apologize for my ignorance earlier! I don't understand why it is less consistent though. At this point I believe that with the printing of Faithless Looting that LED Dredge is superior to LEDless?
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
There is more of a build difference between those varieties. Most other dredge builds will look similiar to one of those two with or without LED's. I would say you are correct with your assessment of faithless looting. Without it there was little difference I playing with/without LED. Looting made a difference.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I knew much less than I thought! What is Quadlazer?
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
LED Dredge packs itself with mana sources and discard outlets that it has to cast as well as its dredge core and win condition which is typically making a lot of zombies off of bridge or making a relatively large troll. It includes a few Ichord but typically has a much harder time feeding them than the manaless package.
The manaless package simply has a lot more gas because the DDD plan gets you moving and the entire deck is streamlined to be threat dense and consistent.
Manaless can win with Ichorid/Shadow beats, Griselbrand-->Troll-->Flayer combo kill, Bridge from below endurance game, or any combination of these methods. Having this much flexibility makes it hard for a lot of graveyard hate to stop it dead. Manaless also has a far better game against Deathrite Shaman than a lot of players give it credit for, and because Deathrite reduces the grave hate in players sideboards by providing this false sense of security it positions dredge to take advantage of the situation.
LED versions of the deck are looking for a very specific mix of cards to go crazy and win before the opponent can do anything. Something like City, LED, Breakthrough, Crack LED, Dredge some dudes, Flashback Faithless Looting, Flashback Dread Return off of Narcos, Win the game. However you're more liable to have awkward hands than Manaless, which basically keeps whatever it gets because it has something like 94% chance of seeing a dredger by card 8.
High consistency build which maxes out on Breakthrough, Careful Study, Faithless Looting, and several other cards. It's likely the most vulnerable to Surgical Extraction but one of the more consistent mana based builds.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
LED Dredge is easier to play and Manaless Dredge is weaker against combo decks.
LED can add speed, but it is more vulnerable (than LEDless) to graveyard sweepers as it requires you to blow your whole hand at once.
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WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I have been playing a Manaless Dredge and have been having a hard time figuring out how to work around hate without having to add mana to the deck. I have looked for it and haven't found much besides Chancellor of the Annex, Contagion, Sickening Shoal and Vengeful Pharaoh as manaless ways to delay game or removal. Also, I have no idea how to deal with a turn 1 Leyline of the Void or a Rest in Peace without adding mana.
Is there a strategy I'm missing or is it just a straight up loss after one of those hits the battlefield?
Thanks in advance!
I've seen Dryad Arbor as well played often. The third deck I listed shows a great anti-hate setup.
MB contagion and Sickening Shoal (Since the MB hate that you will have to primarily be concerned with is DRS and simply try to outrace Miracles with MB RiP) as well as SB Reverent Silence and fetch lands to aid with that.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
That is all you really need to know.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
This post contains nothing useful for me other than strong bias from your viewpoint.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I have played a lot of both LED and manaless and LED is better, not hugely better, but better. I think that a little research on tournament results will support this as well.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener